Only time I have used a single exo is as com. I didn't want to beacon so I dropped an exo next to the cc, scared off 1 fades and killed 2 skulks then /kill to get back in the chair. It cost 40 extra res but it kept the push going and that got them down to 1 hive. Was it risky, yes. was it worth the risk in this case yes. Would I suggest jumping out of cc when an onos is in your base.... Yes after you beacon
I feel like the best moment for an Exo is to come in undetected close to an hive, giving very little time to alien to think ''Should we base trade'' or ''Should we defend''.
Given the choice, most aliens could easily base trade on equal bases, because their base killing potential is huge with Onos, gorges and skulks. But that require a head start, head start being knowing where the Exo currently is.
Then you get a gorge and a lerk to defend, which is really effective against exos and welders, in my experience anyway.
Haven't seen much exos with good players playing, most prefer jetpacks (Cheap and counters everything the aliens got)
I see a bunch of people talking about cutesy little proxy prototype labs and phase gates and 2 Exos killing a hive that's undefended. The only problem is, your team must have been pretty far ahead if the comm can afford 55 resources and 2 of you can afford dual Exos. Also, what hive is undefended. Between Shades, Crags, Whips and Gorges, all they have to do is hold out for the 15 seconds until the Onos arrives. Then your team is out like a combined total of 200 resources and you've accomplished nothing. An Onos with Carapace has 2300 health. An Exo has 580 with Armour 3. I don't know the DPS numbers but I know that one Onos takes like 5 shots to kill an Exo.
Whoever said the advantage marines have is range? Yea, maybe that's an advantage if we are playing Battlefield 3 and trying to get 500 metre alien headshots. Walk-walking, Celerity, Silence, and Camouflage, Leap and Jumping and that range advantage you speak so fondly about is gone within half a second. Show me a hallway where a dual mini Exo can unload both his mini-guns and hit every shot and kill the charging Onos. I bet you don't even bust his armour before he's on you in your grill chomping up your "glass cannon" that's not even a cannon, its just a glass garbage can.
And we can shift onto the subject of Mac Trains. Mac Trains seem really good until you realize they have one huge glaring weakness that costs a total of 2 hives and 10 resources.
Bile Bomb.
Surrounding your Exo with 30 MACs? Doesn't matter, 2 Bile bombs and the scoreboard lights up with MAC kills. Every single marine strategy has some glaringly obvious counter. Want to throw in some Grenade Launchers to take out defensive structures? Half the time Whips are knocking the grenades back at you, and the 3 crags behind the whips are healing them.
The example in specific I have is trying to take out the Sorting Hive on Mineshaft pushing from Deposit. You actually can never successfully get up those stairs. Doesnt matter if you have 3 dual mini Exos, a train of macs and arcs, and 5 dudes with welders and shotgun/flamer/grenade launchers. The Gorges will just launch bio bombs into the huge mess of people and kill all the macs, while the entire combined DPS force of 5 marines and 3 Exos isn't even enough to out-damage the healing of a few crags. Then the dual Onos comes in supported by like 5 skulks whom you cant even see chomping at your feet and its over.
A long story short. If you run into an Onos with 5 marines and no jetpacks. Every marine is going to die, the Onos will then run away and heal. A lone Exo engages a group of 3 skulks, it doesn't matter how good you are, if the skulks are any good at all, they will chomp around at your feet at the speed of light and you will be dead within 10 seconds.
TLDR:
The Exo is garbage, its slow, boring, and anyone who says it is good probably plays on rookie servers where the aliens don't know about the spacebar key.
<!--quoteo(post=2027285:date=Nov 17 2012, 06:04 PM:name=VaSSiLiZaytsev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VaSSiLiZaytsev @ Nov 17 2012, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lone Exo engages a group of 3 skulks, it doesn't matter how good you are, if the skulks are any good at all, they will chomp around at your feet at the speed of light and you will be dead within 10 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You shouldn't be a lone exo.
a.) If your team gets beaconed, bam, you are a lone Exo. b.) I understand this, but doesn't the comparison I just described maybe make you think that Exos in their current state, suck?
I mean, if that's the only quibble you have with my post I can retract that statement entirely (even though its true) but you haven't denied anything else =/
<!--quoteo(post=2027234:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:59 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 17 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone says they are presently getting a +100 armor boost in the next patch and should help stop most of these <i>"1 onos killing an exo and running when two +3/+3 exos are together"</i> I'm seeing constantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Statistically this can't happen. If an onos suddenly teleports beside a dual exo and they begin attacking eachother at exactly the same time the onos BARELY wins. Onos lose 1 on 1 to exo's in any situation where the onos has to close ground before it gets there.
If 2 exos are dying to 1 onos it's because the rest of the alien team is doing a good job helping the onos, and the rest of the marine team is doing a bad job helping the exos.
Exos are actually quite weak against skulks. Skulks can be very difficult to track as exo. I find exo's are the weakest when skulks and onos work together. Onos draw fire, skulks do damage.
a carapace onos only wins by 100hp point blank against a full upgrade dual minigun exosuit from what I tested. You should be able to beat 1 onos unless you are without a team and he cloaks right up to you. just like the exosuit, an onos cannot go without his team around him either.
<!--quoteo(post=2027320:date=Nov 18 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 18 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Statistically this can't happen. If an onos suddenly teleports beside a dual exo and they begin attacking eachother at exactly the same time the onos BARELY wins. Onos lose 1 on 1 to exo's in any situation where the onos has to close ground before it gets there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are assuming the exo is 100% accurate. With their narrow FoV and screen obscuring muzzle-flush, I've found that it is remarkably easy to to stay out of an exo's field of view by circle-strafing with a silenced onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2027239:date=Nov 18 2012, 08:07 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 18 2012, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not so sure about the single-gun exo. Removing yourself from beacon/phase availability for that feels like a questionable decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Personally I'd like to see 50 res exo's claw to be replaced with a flamethrower. The dual-minigun exo would still do more DPS at long range, while the a flamer+minigun exo could potentially sap an onos's energy pool dry before it dies.
<!--quoteo(post=2027413:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:39 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 18 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are assuming the exo is 100% accurate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> we're talking about a charging onos that has no mouselook, i dont think this is a far fetched assumption.
<!--quoteo(post=2027416:date=Nov 18 2012, 11:42 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 18 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we're talking about a charging onos that has no mouselook, i dont think this is a far fetched assumption.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2027320:date=Nov 18 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 18 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If an onos suddenly teleports beside a dual exo and they begin attacking eachother at exactly the same time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I accept that you may have been talking about only that scenario, but swiftspear was very specific about which scenario he was referring to.
<!--quoteo(post=2027413:date=Nov 18 2012, 11:39 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 18 2012, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I'd like to see 50 res exo's claw to be replaced with a flamethrower. The dual-minigun exo would still do more DPS at long range, while the a flamer+minigun exo could potentially sap an onos's energy pool dry before it dies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I think the Exo can be buffed/changed in many ways just due to the fact of changing out the weapon load outs. In fact, I could have sworn I read somewhere that you could use flamers on the EXO at one point. However, I think I read that months ago, so that could have been something I found out by word of mouth.
Still, it'd be pretty cool for the Exo to become the 'Swiss army knife' of Marines. Big metal tank a number of versions that have their own strengths. Heck, one idea I had was instead of a free hand give it some sort of 'shield'. Ups the amount of damage it can take, but it either has no attack for that side or a weaker 'shield bash'.
Again this is all wishes and having an Exo for just about everything would more than likely be hard to balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2027022:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:50 PM:name=MerlinCross)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MerlinCross @ Nov 17 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't the EXO gun negate part of the armor of the target he's hitting? Or does it just do more damage to the armor? Read that somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The exo's miniguns do heavy damage, which treats 1 point of armour as 1 hp. Most weapons treat each point of armour as 2 hp.
<!--quoteo(post=2027234:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:59 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 17 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone says they are presently getting a +100 armor boost in the next patch and should help stop most of these <i>"1 onos killing an exo and running when two +3/+3 exos are together"</i> I'm seeing constantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 100 base armour. They reduced the bonus from armour upgrades (90->60, IIRC), so at a3 it's only 10 higher than the current value. But, who knows if those changes will actually go in.
--- Ahh, here we go, exo armour values <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=124687&view=findpost&p=2026523" target="_blank">here</a>.
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the arc welders? You have 4-8 of them follow around the exos, if the team gets beaconed they will still have a little army of healers who are immune to lerk gas and onos stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=2027633:date=Nov 17 2012, 11:35 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Nov 17 2012, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why hasn't anyone mentioned the arc welders? You have 4-8 of them follow around the exos, if the team gets beaconed they will still have a little army of healers who are immune to lerk gas and onos stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> MAC welders I think you mean. Well, someone covered the fact that a few bile bombs either takes them out or forces them to repair each other, lowering the healing on the EXO.
I was in a game where we had 2 exos together and everytime an onos came up it would kill one and get away
There were other players present obviously, but this happened over and over again so I'm fairly convinced you now need 3 exo to beat 1 onos
<i>FYI: 2 single exos btw. . .</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I've had a team of LMG marines kill 3 onos back to back before. Therefore you need 4 onos to kill 6 LMG marines?
No, you can't take one game and make a balance assumption. You can't assume your exo's were decent, you can't assume the onos was at the same skill level as the exo's you can't assume your support marines were doing their job, or that some other lifeforms on the alien team weren't significantly helping the onos.
If your team knows what they're doing you don't need more than 2 exo's to shut down a single onos. The more onos you have the # of exos you need to shut them down decreases logirithmically. If you have 1 onos, you need 2 dual exo, if you have 5 onos, you only really need 5 dual exo. The concentrated fire drops onos so quickly they just can't easily make forward progress.
For the record, punch exo's are pretty bad, you shouldn't bother with them, they're not good against onos. If you're refering to punch exo's then that's your problem right there. They're a waste of res.
<!--quoteo(post=2027531:date=Nov 17 2012, 08:49 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 17 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want an exo with two hands and the ability to pick up an onos and suplex it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kung-fu/wrestler exo with dropkick ability, 100 res. The ultimate weapon.
Punch exo should have been made like the trailer. A punch effectively knocking down an Onos. Flattening a Skulk. and ripping the wings off a lerk. Or forcing a fade to blink head first into a steel wall.
Kinda agree there's no real reason to get the open fist over the duel. Just save up for it. Only time I do see it being a good by is if the second command chair is near death. Everyone get an Exo while you can! Any Exo!
<!--quoteo(post=2027774:date=Nov 18 2012, 03:48 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 18 2012, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kung-fu/wrestler exo with dropkick ability, 100 res. The ultimate weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4392511927_9d9fb71fa1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Bakunetsu! God Finger!
On topic though, whenever I have to fight an Exo or two as an Onos, I always try to use it as cover from the other marines trying to shoot me. That thing is big and offer a lot of protection from bullets. Soloing an Exo is even easier as you can run around it while hitting. Chances are, his bullets won't hit 100% of the time.
The speed of the Onos is also a huge factor. While Exos have to fight everything coming at them, Onos don't have to. I've won a few games just ignoring the exos and going straight for the base. They obs back? Go kill the exo's.
Let's be honest here, as the 'top tier' player based unit, the EXO is outmanned and outgunned by the Onos in every way.<ul><li>The EXO is very easily bile spammed by gorge/lerk. The marine equivalent (grenade launcher) does very little indirect damage to the Onos, and has a slower overall firing rate when reload is taken into account.</li><li>The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire.</li><li>The EXO travel speed is a half that of the Onos. Since an EXO can't use a phase gate, an Onos can hit the marine base in roughly 50% of the time it takes an EXO to go from base to the hive. (and the Onos can get there faster using charge)</li><li>The EXO lacks an 'escape' mechanism like the Onos. While the Onos has 'charge', the EXO has a weak jetpack lift that is useless in most areas since they are enclosed.</li><li>The EXO is healed at a slower rate than an Onos. The welder repairs at 30/sec, while the Gorge can heal an Onos for 47/sec. That's roughly 50% faster.</li><li>The EXO has no equivalent defensive boost as the Onos does with Umbra. An Onos in Umbra has his effective health pool doubled, making him nearly impossible to kill without being heavily outgunned. </li><li>The EXO is indirectly vulnerable from stomp, since it will disable the marine welders and prevent marine grenade attacks on gorges. The marines have no way to counter this.</li><li>The single mini-gun EXO can't be upgraded, regardless of whether the player has the necessary resources to cover the difference in cost.</li><li>An EXO (dual mini) cannot be drooped by the Marine commander, yet an Onos egg can be dropped by the Alien commander. </li><li>The EXO cannot repair at an armory, despite basic marine armor being repairable at the armory. They have to be repaired manually. Meanwhile the Onos can heal quickly at a hive.</li></ul> That's just off the top of my head. Some other EXO eaknesses unrelated to the Onos...<ul><li>Since the EXO is armor only, the Marine commander loses his one tool to support players. (dropping medpacks)</li><li>The EXO cannot assist in building or repairing structures, even if the player has a welder equipped.</li></ul>So yeah, the EXO is gimped. Sure you can get a group of them together and make use of them, but they are much harder to use and maintain than a similar group of Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2028407:date=Nov 18 2012, 11:49 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 18 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's be honest here, as the 'top tier' player based unit, the EXO is outmanned and outgunned by the Onos in every way.<ul><li>The EXO is very easily bile spammed by gorge/lerk. The marine equivalent (grenade launcher) does very little indirect damage to the Onos, and has a slower overall firing rate when reload is taken into account. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->gorges, yes, lerk is basically useless against exo until they have umbra<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->A good player can deal with this without too much trouble<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO travel speed is a half that of the Onos. Since an EXO can't use a phase gate, an Onos can hit the marine base in roughly 50% of the time it takes an EXO to go from base to the hive. (and the Onos can get there faster using charge)</li><li>The EXO lacks an 'escape' mechanism like the Onos. While the Onos has 'charge', the EXO has a weak jetpack lift that is useless in most areas since they are enclosed.</li><li>The EXO is healed at a slower rate than an Onos. The welder repairs at 30/sec, while the Gorge can heal an Onos for 47/sec. That's roughly 50% faster. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff to exos because they're cheap, effective, distracting, and require no player intervention<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO has no equivalent defensive boost as the Onos does with Umbra. An Onos in Umbra has his effective health pool doubled, making him nearly impossible to kill without being heavily outgunned. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Nanoshield, umbra is hive 3, marines have nanoshield immediately, Exos have a better version of umbra earlier in the game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO is indirectly vulnerable from stomp, since it will disable the marine welders and prevent marine grenade attacks on gorges. The marines have no way to counter this. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Stomp doesn't work on Macs, it's also hive 3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The single mini-gun EXO can't be upgraded, regardless of whether the player has the necessary resources to cover the difference in cost.</li><li>An EXO (dual mini) cannot be drooped by the Marine commander, yet an Onos egg can be dropped by the Alien commander. </li><li>The EXO cannot repair at an armory, despite basic marine armor being repairable at the armory. They have to be repaired manually. Meanwhile the Onos can heal quickly at a hive.</li></ul> That's just off the top of my head. Some other EXO eaknesses unrelated to the Onos...<ul><li>Since the EXO is armor only, the Marine commander loses his one tool to support players. (dropping medpacks) <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->comm can still drop nanoshields on exo<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO cannot assist in building or repairing structures, even if the player has a welder equipped. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->neither can onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>So yeah, the EXO is gimped. Sure you can get a group of them together and make use of them, but they are much harder to use and maintain than a similar group of Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've also forgotten that if you have bought gear before you get into the Exo suit, your gear disappears.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but I think it was a bit disingenuous claiming that exo's have all these disadvantages that onos don't have to deal with, when many of those advantages exo's DO have their own version of, as well as other support buffs that onos don't have (like flamethrowers).
Exo's also have the advantage of only requiring 2 tech points to be fully upgraded, where onos require 3. However, exo are objectively more expensive for the comm to field, and fixed to a later stage of the game. (considering T-res drops anyways)
in the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other... it's more about what actually happens in the real game than theorycrafting "well, maybe there are X amount of exos here and Y amount of onos there, then aliens have an advantage"
<!--quoteo(post=2028451:date=Nov 19 2012, 01:45 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 19 2012, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A good player can deal with this without too much trouble<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry charlie, just not true. I had a game tonight where I rolled in with my SOLO Onos, and took on two EXOs. The dual mini EXO had never had a chance to get guns spun up since it's all tight spaces. I killed him, despite him unloading both guns. He was dead before he could reload. Then I finished off the other EXO, which was a single mini. Oh and an LMG marine that came in to try and help. I'm no pro either. I'm an 'average' player.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, these units cost res. Secondly, they are killed with 2 bile bombs. I had a game yesterday where the comm had 5 on an EXO, they lasted all of 10 seconds once the bile started flowing. Why spend res on something that will die so quickly?
You talk nanoshield, but that costs res too, just like the macs. Heck even the marines that heal the EXOs have to BUY a welder out of their personal res, and the welder has to be researched first. It all costs resources, and yet aliens get it all for free.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, but those advantages should balance out in the big scheme of things. Right now there is a clear imbalance with EXOs. I can't believe the devs will leave them this way. Heh, I killed two as a skulk a few days ago. Just waited until they passed by and came from behind. Zero res alien takes out 150 res. You can try and say that they were inexperienced players, but could a LMG marine *EVER* solo two Onos, even if they were being played by new players? Of course not. He's run out of ammo before he killed one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=2028451:date=Nov 19 2012, 01:45 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 19 2012, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A good player can deal with this without too much trouble<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry charlie, just not true. I had a game tonight where I rolled in with my SOLO Onos, and took on two EXOs. The dual mini EXO had never had a chance to get guns spun up since it's all tight spaces. I killed him, despite him unloading both guns. He was dead before he could reload. Then I finished off the other EXO, which was a single mini. Oh and an LMG marine that came in to try and help. I'm no pro either. I'm an 'average' player.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, these units cost res. Secondly, they are killed with 2 bile bombs. I had a game yesterday where the comm had 5 on an EXO, they lasted all of 10 seconds once the bile started flowing. Why spend res on something that will die so quickly?
You talk nanoshield, but that costs res too, just like the macs. Heck even the marines that heal the EXOs have to BUY a welder out of their personal res, and the welder has to be researched first. It all costs resources, and yet aliens get it all for free.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, but those advantages should balance out in the big scheme of things. Right now there is a clear imbalance with EXOs. I can't believe the devs will leave them this way. Heh, I killed two as a skulk a few days ago. Just waited until they passed by and came from behind. Zero res alien takes out 150 res. You can try and say that they were inexperienced players, but could a LMG marine *EVER* solo two Onos, even if they were being played by new players? Of course not. He'd run out of ammo before he killed one of them.
Comments
with single gun exo, let me grab the alien when he gets close and then blast him with my minigun so he cannot run away.
Was it risky, yes.
was it worth the risk in this case yes.
Would I suggest jumping out of cc when an onos is in your base.... Yes after you beacon
Given the choice, most aliens could easily base trade on equal bases, because their base killing potential is huge with Onos, gorges and skulks. But that require a head start, head start being knowing where the Exo currently is.
Then you get a gorge and a lerk to defend, which is really effective against exos and welders, in my experience anyway.
Haven't seen much exos with good players playing, most prefer jetpacks (Cheap and counters everything the aliens got)
Whoever said the advantage marines have is range? Yea, maybe that's an advantage if we are playing Battlefield 3 and trying to get 500 metre alien headshots. Walk-walking, Celerity, Silence, and Camouflage, Leap and Jumping and that range advantage you speak so fondly about is gone within half a second. Show me a hallway where a dual mini Exo can unload both his mini-guns and hit every shot and kill the charging Onos. I bet you don't even bust his armour before he's on you in your grill chomping up your "glass cannon" that's not even a cannon, its just a glass garbage can.
And we can shift onto the subject of Mac Trains. Mac Trains seem really good until you realize they have one huge glaring weakness that costs a total of 2 hives and 10 resources.
Bile Bomb.
Surrounding your Exo with 30 MACs? Doesn't matter, 2 Bile bombs and the scoreboard lights up with MAC kills. Every single marine strategy has some glaringly obvious counter. Want to throw in some Grenade Launchers to take out defensive structures? Half the time Whips are knocking the grenades back at you, and the 3 crags behind the whips are healing them.
The example in specific I have is trying to take out the Sorting Hive on Mineshaft pushing from Deposit. You actually can never successfully get up those stairs. Doesnt matter if you have 3 dual mini Exos, a train of macs and arcs, and 5 dudes with welders and shotgun/flamer/grenade launchers. The Gorges will just launch bio bombs into the huge mess of people and kill all the macs, while the entire combined DPS force of 5 marines and 3 Exos isn't even enough to out-damage the healing of a few crags. Then the dual Onos comes in supported by like 5 skulks whom you cant even see chomping at your feet and its over.
A long story short. If you run into an Onos with 5 marines and no jetpacks. Every marine is going to die, the Onos will then run away and heal. A lone Exo engages a group of 3 skulks, it doesn't matter how good you are, if the skulks are any good at all, they will chomp around at your feet at the speed of light and you will be dead within 10 seconds.
TLDR:
The Exo is garbage, its slow, boring, and anyone who says it is good probably plays on rookie servers where the aliens don't know about the spacebar key.
You shouldn't be a lone exo.
b.) I understand this, but doesn't the comparison I just described maybe make you think that Exos in their current state, suck?
I mean, if that's the only quibble you have with my post I can retract that statement entirely (even though its true) but you haven't denied anything else =/
Statistically this can't happen. If an onos suddenly teleports beside a dual exo and they begin attacking eachother at exactly the same time the onos BARELY wins. Onos lose 1 on 1 to exo's in any situation where the onos has to close ground before it gets there.
If 2 exos are dying to 1 onos it's because the rest of the alien team is doing a good job helping the onos, and the rest of the marine team is doing a bad job helping the exos.
Exos are actually quite weak against skulks. Skulks can be very difficult to track as exo. I find exo's are the weakest when skulks and onos work together. Onos draw fire, skulks do damage.
Not sure what to tell you. . .
I was in a game where we had 2 exos together and everytime an onos came up it would kill one and get away
There were other players present obviously, but this happened over and over again so I'm fairly convinced you now need 3 exo to beat 1 onos
<i>FYI: 2 single exos btw. . .</i>
You are assuming the exo is 100% accurate. With their narrow FoV and screen obscuring muzzle-flush, I've found that it is remarkably easy to to stay out of an exo's field of view by circle-strafing with a silenced onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2027239:date=Nov 18 2012, 08:07 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 18 2012, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not so sure about the single-gun exo. Removing yourself from beacon/phase availability for that feels like a questionable decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Personally I'd like to see 50 res exo's claw to be replaced with a flamethrower. The dual-minigun exo would still do more DPS at long range, while the a flamer+minigun exo could potentially sap an onos's energy pool dry before it dies.
we're talking about a charging onos that has no mouselook, i dont think this is a far fetched assumption.
Not sure what to tell you. . .
I was in a game where we had 2 exos together and everytime an onos came up it would kill one and get away
There were other players present obviously, but this happened over and over again so I'm fairly convinced you now need 3 exo to beat 1 onos
<i>FYI: 2 single exos btw. . .</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It entirely depends on the distance between you and said onos.
This is where map awareness and jp bait are for the win.
<!--quoteo(post=2027320:date=Nov 18 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 18 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If an onos suddenly teleports beside a dual exo and they begin attacking eachother at exactly the same time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I accept that you may have been talking about only that scenario, but swiftspear was very specific about which scenario he was referring to.
Flamethrower????
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Impact--><span style="font-family:Impact"><!--/fonto-->YES PLZ<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
Still, it'd be pretty cool for the Exo to become the 'Swiss army knife' of Marines. Big metal tank a number of versions that have their own strengths. Heck, one idea I had was instead of a free hand give it some sort of 'shield'. Ups the amount of damage it can take, but it either has no attack for that side or a weaker 'shield bash'.
Again this is all wishes and having an Exo for just about everything would more than likely be hard to balance.
The exo's miniguns do heavy damage, which treats 1 point of armour as 1 hp. Most weapons treat each point of armour as 2 hp.
<!--quoteo(post=2027234:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:59 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 17 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone says they are presently getting a +100 armor boost in the next patch and should help stop most of these <i>"1 onos killing an exo and running when two +3/+3 exos are together"</i> I'm seeing constantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100 base armour. They reduced the bonus from armour upgrades (90->60, IIRC), so at a3 it's only 10 higher than the current value. But, who knows if those changes will actually go in.
---
Ahh, here we go, exo armour values <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=124687&view=findpost&p=2026523" target="_blank">here</a>.
MAC welders I think you mean. Well, someone covered the fact that a few bile bombs either takes them out or forces them to repair each other, lowering the healing on the EXO.
Not sure what to tell you. . .
I was in a game where we had 2 exos together and everytime an onos came up it would kill one and get away
There were other players present obviously, but this happened over and over again so I'm fairly convinced you now need 3 exo to beat 1 onos
<i>FYI: 2 single exos btw. . .</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I've had a team of LMG marines kill 3 onos back to back before. Therefore you need 4 onos to kill 6 LMG marines?
No, you can't take one game and make a balance assumption. You can't assume your exo's were decent, you can't assume the onos was at the same skill level as the exo's you can't assume your support marines were doing their job, or that some other lifeforms on the alien team weren't significantly helping the onos.
If your team knows what they're doing you don't need more than 2 exo's to shut down a single onos. The more onos you have the # of exos you need to shut them down decreases logirithmically. If you have 1 onos, you need 2 dual exo, if you have 5 onos, you only really need 5 dual exo. The concentrated fire drops onos so quickly they just can't easily make forward progress.
For the record, punch exo's are pretty bad, you shouldn't bother with them, they're not good against onos. If you're refering to punch exo's then that's your problem right there. They're a waste of res.
Kung-fu/wrestler exo with dropkick ability, 100 res. The ultimate weapon.
Beware of the Exo Fist Style.
<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4392511927_9d9fb71fa1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Bakunetsu! God Finger!
On topic though, whenever I have to fight an Exo or two as an Onos, I always try to use it as cover from the other marines trying to shoot me. That thing is big and offer a lot of protection from bullets. Soloing an Exo is even easier as you can run around it while hitting. Chances are, his bullets won't hit 100% of the time.
The speed of the Onos is also a huge factor. While Exos have to fight everything coming at them, Onos don't have to. I've won a few games just ignoring the exos and going straight for the base. They obs back? Go kill the exo's.
Jetpacks, for 65 less res, does much better.
That's just off the top of my head. Some other EXO eaknesses unrelated to the Onos...<ul><li>Since the EXO is armor only, the Marine commander loses his one tool to support players. (dropping medpacks)</li><li>The EXO cannot assist in building or repairing structures, even if the player has a welder equipped.</li></ul>So yeah, the EXO is gimped. Sure you can get a group of them together and make use of them, but they are much harder to use and maintain than a similar group of Onos.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->gorges, yes, lerk is basically useless against exo until they have umbra<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->A good player can deal with this without too much trouble<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO travel speed is a half that of the Onos. Since an EXO can't use a phase gate, an Onos can hit the marine base in roughly 50% of the time it takes an EXO to go from base to the hive. (and the Onos can get there faster using charge)</li><li>The EXO lacks an 'escape' mechanism like the Onos. While the Onos has 'charge', the EXO has a weak jetpack lift that is useless in most areas since they are enclosed.</li><li>The EXO is healed at a slower rate than an Onos. The welder repairs at 30/sec, while the Gorge can heal an Onos for 47/sec. That's roughly 50% faster.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff to exos because they're cheap, effective, distracting, and require no player intervention<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO has no equivalent defensive boost as the Onos does with Umbra. An Onos in Umbra has his effective health pool doubled, making him nearly impossible to kill without being heavily outgunned.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Nanoshield, umbra is hive 3, marines have nanoshield immediately, Exos have a better version of umbra earlier in the game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO is indirectly vulnerable from stomp, since it will disable the marine welders and prevent marine grenade attacks on gorges. The marines have no way to counter this.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Stomp doesn't work on Macs, it's also hive 3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The single mini-gun EXO can't be upgraded, regardless of whether the player has the necessary resources to cover the difference in cost.</li><li>An EXO (dual mini) cannot be drooped by the Marine commander, yet an Onos egg can be dropped by the Alien commander. </li><li>The EXO cannot repair at an armory, despite basic marine armor being repairable at the armory. They have to be repaired manually. Meanwhile the Onos can heal quickly at a hive.</li></ul>
That's just off the top of my head. Some other EXO eaknesses unrelated to the Onos...<ul><li>Since the EXO is armor only, the Marine commander loses his one tool to support players. (dropping medpacks)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->comm can still drop nanoshields on exo<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>The EXO cannot assist in building or repairing structures, even if the player has a welder equipped.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->neither can onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>So yeah, the EXO is gimped. Sure you can get a group of them together and make use of them, but they are much harder to use and maintain than a similar group of Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've also forgotten that if you have bought gear before you get into the Exo suit, your gear disappears.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but I think it was a bit disingenuous claiming that exo's have all these disadvantages that onos don't have to deal with, when many of those advantages exo's DO have their own version of, as well as other support buffs that onos don't have (like flamethrowers).
Exo's also have the advantage of only requiring 2 tech points to be fully upgraded, where onos require 3. However, exo are objectively more expensive for the comm to field, and fixed to a later stage of the game. (considering T-res drops anyways)
in the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other... it's more about what actually happens in the real game than theorycrafting "well, maybe there are X amount of exos here and Y amount of onos there, then aliens have an advantage"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, these units cost res. Secondly, they are killed with 2 bile bombs. I had a game yesterday where the comm had 5 on an EXO, they lasted all of 10 seconds once the bile started flowing. Why spend res on something that will die so quickly?
You talk nanoshield, but that costs res too, just like the macs. Heck even the marines that heal the EXOs have to BUY a welder out of their personal res, and the welder has to be researched first. It all costs resources, and yet aliens get it all for free.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, but those advantages should balance out in the big scheme of things. Right now there is a clear imbalance with EXOs. I can't believe the devs will leave them this way. Heh, I killed two as a skulk a few days ago. Just waited until they passed by and came from behind. Zero res alien takes out 150 res. You can try and say that they were inexperienced players, but could a LMG marine *EVER* solo two Onos, even if they were being played by new players? Of course not. He's run out of ammo before he killed one of them.
The EXOs need work.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, these units cost res. Secondly, they are killed with 2 bile bombs. I had a game yesterday where the comm had 5 on an EXO, they lasted all of 10 seconds once the bile started flowing. Why spend res on something that will die so quickly?
You talk nanoshield, but that costs res too, just like the macs. Heck even the marines that heal the EXOs have to BUY a welder out of their personal res, and the welder has to be researched first. It all costs resources, and yet aliens get it all for free.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, but those advantages should balance out in the big scheme of things. Right now there is a clear imbalance with EXOs. I can't believe the devs will leave them this way. Heh, I killed two as a skulk a few days ago. Just waited until they passed by and came from behind. Zero res alien takes out 150 res. You can try and say that they were inexperienced players, but could a LMG marine *EVER* solo two Onos, even if they were being played by new players? Of course not. He'd run out of ammo before he killed one of them.
The EXOs need work.