This thread "I'm a horrible exo so exos must be horrible".
I've summed up 11 pages for anyone just getting into it, dev confirmed it takes 17-19 (can't remember) direct bile hits to take an exo down.
Everyone saying dual exos are bad have also avoided the point I brought up earlier that a dual exo will drop a 100% mature hive to 64%, 43%, 12% and death in less than 15-20 seconds by itself while popping every single egg available to spawn from around the hive, 3 crags not over healing will not stop a dual exo from destroying a hive on it's 4th burst.
The best defence is offence, if you sit around in a base as dual you're a waste of oxygen and bandwidth unless it's absolutely necessary.
I do believe exo's have a small disadvantage over onos, but on the other hand it all depends on the situation.
Anyway to clear some things out. This thread contains people with a couple of visions:
<b>1. Exo is worth nothing</b> These people mainly think an exo should be an invisible tank whom cannot die.
<b>2. If handled right an exo is super</b> These people generaly have the idea that, when handled correctly (spin up time, switching between lmb rmb) an exo is very good.
<b>3. Stop whining</b> These people tend to watch more to an overal gamebalance and provide arguments as in an exo can kill a hive in 20 seconds (or what not).
Group 1. An exo is not a tank and should not become a tank. It is vurnable as is an onos walking into a room with 4 jetpackers. Group 2. As I do think this group has a point, I don't believe this point is actually a good one. A good player can handle a fade much better then a poor one, saying that only a good player should be able to handle a fade is however false. Group 3. Well I could sum this in my overall statement:
In my opinoin exo's can be fixed in a rather simple way. The main "frustration" / "irritation" of people who tend to lose 75 rescources to an exo is due to the fact that it's pretty much useless when it's not guarded by welders or macs. Ofcourse you can compare this to an onos (which can walk around the map not caring about support and still survive easily) but I do believe this is more of a overall gamebalance thing. Exo's should not be a walking invisible tank because it would be way to easy to walk acros the map and kill a hive single handed. Something an onos could never do (unless the com is fairly new I suppose). As to my sollution. Fix the hud.
This is more or less how the current hud looks like (not sure if this is latest version but this is the only image I could find this fast).: <a href="http://www.hbhud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/14.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.hbhud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/14.jpg</a> You cannot see the exo's feet. This point of the exo is rather vurnable (skulks). If the exo's field of view would be increased, some of the most prominent hud elements would be removed and the annoying flashing targetting stuff would be simplefied most of the problems will probably be fixed.
But again this is just my idea. And to join myselve up in the comparing group: Onos have full fov, why don't exo have atleast something close to that...
Other to that I also believe that exo's should recieve auto repair from nearby armories. All alien units recieve hp from nearby hives and crags so why can't exo's recieve atleast something simulair to that.
1)the power claw exo should 1 shot a skulk,this way it could became a better alternative,since skulks are so annoyng when you are in the suit
2)the commander cant deploy dual minigun exo,why?,the aliens can deploy onos eggs with 3 hives,why dont allow to the commander to deploy them if you have let's say 3 command stations
<!--quoteo(post=2067780:date=Jan 28 2013, 10:28 AM:name=Mindstorm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mindstorm @ Jan 28 2013, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other to that I also believe that exo's should recieve auto repair from nearby armories. All alien units recieve hp from nearby hives and crags so why can't exo's recieve atleast something simulair to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they can recieve auto repair anywhere from a MAC. They are a mechanical unit, not a marine, they don't wear body armor, armories don't repair things.
You have a unit that has the heaviest armor and firepower on the marine team, and it can have another unit follow it around and give it constant health regeneration, as can most normal marines at the point when the exo is likely to be fielded. I don't think what that unit needs is the ability to armory hump.
A skulk needs 16 direct hits to kill an EXO lvl 3 armour. That equals to about 7-9 seconds(Not sure what the exact attack speed is as the wiki is down). Which means that an EXO needs an escort at all times for repair and support for it to be useful. Also for an EXO to a good investment you need to be able to keep it alive for a substantial amount of time.
Skulk attack speed is 0.45, and the 16 bites needed can be delivered in 7 seconds. As I've said before, I do acknowledge that the EXO shouldn't be wandering around alone, but the weakest unit in the game shouldn't be killing an EXO as fast as the strongest unit in the game.
Feel free to disagree, but the reality is that you may think the EXO is fine, but most people think it is a waste of res. (especially the 50 res EXO) People don't play a game to be running around with a welder out pressing M1 for 10 minutes. That's not fun, and if it is not fun it doesn't belong in the game.
If it's not the skulk killing in 7 seconds, the gorge can do it in 10 seconds. This is the 'ultimate' marine weapon? It's a liability, plain and simple. Instead of the 'ultimate weapon' protecting others, people have to protect it since it's so freaking fragile that the minute it's out of base it's a walking target. The EXO does best sitting in base on defence not moving.
The problem I see with Exos isn't that it tricks new/bad players into buying something that's not very good, but that it tricks new/bad players into buying something that they don't know how to use effectively.
It's the "buy exos/evolve onos and we auto win" mentality. It just doesn't work that way.
The best way to use an EXO is to not use it at all. The strongest place for an EXO is sitting on top of the comm chair in base defending against a base rush. In that role it is stellar. Too bad that's probably one of the most boring things to do in the game. As for an assault vehicle, it's sub-optimal at best and just plain lousy against any kind of competent alien team.
With each day that passes more and more people are learning that as an alien, the EXO is not a real threat. When they approach it that way the EXOs die really fast. Even if you play the EXO perfectly, all it takes is on skulk on the power node in your main base to yank away your welders and doom you to a quick death.
Yeah, we get your opinion. And most of us disagree. So what are you trying to achieve? You don't need to repeat it a 100st time. I think Exos are fine. I will continue to use them, when the situation is appropriate.
You haven't convinced me at the 5th page of this thread and you will not convince me on the 9th. So please let this thread finally die. Everything has been said.
The dual exo is one of the only ways for a not-so-organized team to kill a moderately skilled onos. Any decent onos can run in and out of the room smashing marines faces into oblivion and the marines just can not do enough damage per second to kill it before the onos escapes. If however a dual exo is hiding around the corner , the next time that onos tries to make a hit & run he is very likely to die due to the high DPS of the dual exo.
So Savant I agree to a certain extent as I said before , the dual exo can be somewhat effective at certain tasks and I buy one every chance I get. Its true a skulk can kill me in 7 seconds but with my mediocre aiming ability I can usually kill that skulk in about .5 - 1 second unless hes one of those super-skulks who seem to bounce around at impossible rates while landing every bite..
The single exo is agreeably a total waste of money.
What's funny is that the usefulness of the EXO is totally counter intuitive. It's designed to be a strong assault vehicle. They show it in ad images fighting against an Onos in a hive.
Yet the EXO can sit in a marine base and be extraordinarily powerful. Park him on top of the comm chair and aliens are significantly hindered if they want to bust a base. All that EXO needs is one marine welder or a few MACs and he's good to go. However, all that really does is prolong a turtle.
Take that same EXO out of base and you have a big liability. Not only is the marine base at risk from an alien rush (since your EXOs can't get back in time) if marines beacon the EXOs are sitting ducks. All this happens the moment the EXOs leave base. Even if you get no beacon, you have to have a couple marines sitting with welders out pressing M1 for 10 minutes to keep the EXOs alive.
I'm sorry, but most people don't find that very fun.
I use exosuits for the following (both as a pilot, and as a comm):
1) Supporting a push by other units - light marines/JPs, ARCs. This means not LEADING the charge, but hanging back and providing the overwhelming firepower the marines so desperately need since the Alterra HMG factory is no longer online (give us back our HMGs, damn it!)
2) Defending important bases. Yes, defense. Yes, I'd rather have the Exo out supporting a push, but sometimes the timing isn't right and playing defensively for a short period of time discourages aliens from launching mini attacks on my bases. I was comming on one of the KKG servers last night on ns2_tram, and we kept having gorges try to rush Repair Room to the point of being obnoxious. The moment a dual exo was up, I asked him to go to Repair and defend it - with the implicit understanding that it was only a temp assignment. There was peace in Repair Room thereafter. A few JPs and another duallie eventually showed up, and next thing I know we got Ore Processing on lockdown - temp assignment over.
I used to like the multiple exosuit push with welder support, but I've since learned that it is usually followed by a massive rush on one of our vacant bases, triggering a beacon, leaving those exos stranded up gorge creek without a welder.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Motivated personal can perform mircles.
I get JP first.. but if they want exo, they can have it.. asuming only a third max will go exo.
By the time we 'can' upgrade exo, I have been shouting orders enough to realise if they will obey or not. If I am sure they will not obey, and thus waste res on exo's.. they are not going to get any.
What's funny is that the usefulness of the EXO is totally counter intuitive. It's designed to be a strong assault vehicle. They show it in ad images fighting against an Onos in a hive.
Yet the EXO can sit in a marine base and be extraordinarily powerful. Park him on top of the comm chair and aliens are significantly hindered if they want to bust a base. All that EXO needs is one marine welder or a few MACs and he's good to go. However, all that really does is prolong a turtle.
Take that same EXO out of base and you have a big liability. Not only is the marine base at risk from an alien rush (since your EXOs can't get back in time) if marines beacon the EXOs are sitting ducks. All this happens the moment the EXOs leave base. Even if you get no beacon, you have to have a couple marines sitting with welders out pressing M1 for 10 minutes to keep the EXOs alive.
I'm sorry, but most people don't find that very fun.
I see what you are saying. What changes would you suggest UWE make? I think it would be difficult to make the Exo a proper assault unit without making it overpowered. If it moved faster, or had more armor, or both, it would be too powerful IMO.
Personally I think if they just allowed the exos to weld and, interact with structures, even if it meant jumping out of the suit that would help a lot. Also as I said before, the single exo should be able to upgrade the fist to things like a welder, flame or GL. This would mean people actually bought the stupid useless things and had fun with it!
As for the EXO being so slow that it is a liability, how about if it had some sort of escape method, like thrusters you can activate that speed up its movement for a quick sprint back to base, but during that time your weapons are disabled.
What's funny is that the usefulness of the EXO is totally counter intuitive. It's designed to be a strong assault vehicle. ... Yet the EXO can sit in a marine base and be extraordinarily powerful.
I see what you are saying. What changes would you suggest UWE make? I think it would be difficult to make the Exo a proper assault unit without making it overpowered. If it moved faster, or had more armor, or both, it would be too powerful IMO.
Oh I agree with you that it's a very complex problem. It does need to be addressed in a way that is balanced, and I think you hit on this at the bottom.
Personally I think if they just allowed the exos to weld and, interact with structures, even if it meant jumping out of the suit that would help a lot. Also as I said before, the single exo should be able to upgrade the fist to things like a welder, flame or GL. This would mean people actually bought the stupid useless things and had fun with it!
If the single EXO could have a welder instead of a fist, *I* would actually use it - and I have only used the 'bro-fist' EXO on one occasion, which is when I found out how craptastic it was.
As for the EXO being so slow that it is a liability, how about if it had some sort of escape method, like thrusters you can activate that speed up its movement for a quick sprint back to base, but during that time your weapons are disabled.
These are great ideas, and I have mentioned similar in the past.
Even something like having the EXOs beacon with the team would improve the EXO's value on the field. As it stands now, you are better to take out jetpacks to go after a hive since if your base gets attack you can ALL beacon back.
What about a two stage beacon? When the klaxon sounds for 3 seconds, the marines are beaconed, then the klaxon keeps sounding for 3 more seconds and the EXOs are beaconed. So it becomes a two-stage beacon. This prevents a commander from using beacon to 'rescue' an EXO under attack.
I also agree that EXOs could use more mobility features that don't necessarily make it harder to kill. An 'escape' mechanism would be helpful, and as you noted the weapons would be offline during use since all power goes to propulsion.
We could think outside the box... What about if the EXO was *more* powerful in rooms without power and *less* powerful in rooms -with- power? The concept being that the power nodes interfere with the EXOs targeting systems. This makes it so that it's harder for the EXO to defend, but deadlier on the attack. Everything comes with a tradeoff. Or if more damage is too much, make it more armor. If a power node is active it conflicts with the EXO's "shields" and so it has 'standard' armor. However, in areas where power nodes are down, the EXO gets extra armor from 'shields'. (this would just be semantics - all that would happen is that EXO armor would increase)
I also would like to see the EXO get the 100 health from the marine added to it. If armor needs to be reduced to keep it at the same level, that's fine. However, the EXO shouldn't be an amor only vehicle when NONE of the marine structures or the MAC/ARC are armor only. The EXO is the only one in the game with no health. There is a marine in there, let's have the marine health on the EXO. Give it the 100 health. This will prevent gorge bile kills from bile *alone*. They can use spit, or have a skulk get in there and finish it, but this benefits the EXO on assault, it does nothing to benefit him on defence.
There is much that can be done to improve the EXO if the developers have the wherewithal to do so.
What's funny is that the usefulness of the EXO is totally counter intuitive. It's designed to be a strong assault vehicle. They show it in ad images fighting against an Onos in a hive.
Yet the EXO can sit in a marine base and be extraordinarily powerful. Park him on top of the comm chair and aliens are significantly hindered if they want to bust a base. All that EXO needs is one marine welder or a few MACs and he's good to go. However, all that really does is prolong a turtle.
Take that same EXO out of base and you have a big liability. Not only is the marine base at risk from an alien rush (since your EXOs can't get back in time) if marines beacon the EXOs are sitting ducks. All this happens the moment the EXOs leave base. Even if you get no beacon, you have to have a couple marines sitting with welders out pressing M1 for 10 minutes to keep the EXOs alive.
I'm sorry, but most people don't find that very fun.
They also show several marines shooting an onos with LMGs while riding a tram around in the promotional art. Promotional art is exactly that, promotional, it is not, generally, realistic. They also released a trailer showing a fade taking a minute or two to kill three basic marines without anybody moving more than about twenty feet. Saying 'it's in the poster' is a ridiculous argument for how it was 'designed' to be.
In reality, as anybody playing the game will rather rapidly figure out, the exo is not an assault unit, and there is no conceivable way it could be designed as an assault unit, as I said last time you made that argument, because assaulting things is how marines win.
Let's break down what you mean by 'assault'. From what I'm gathering, an assault unit for you is one which can completely make an attack on a heavily fortified and defended alien hive. Which is to say, it is a unit which can take on every alien lifeform, every alien building, in the very heart of alien territory, and win. Also it cannot, apparently, carry any risk of significant loss with it, or have an easy counter to its use, because that makes it a 'liability'
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
Does it perhaps strike you that such a unit would have some potential balance issues with it? Do you think maybe that such a unit would be describable as a 'win button' in the sense that it can literally do everything the marines need to do in order to win? Can you think of a reasonable and realistic way that such a unit could meet all of those criteria, and somehow not be universally better on defence, in the heart of marine territory, supported by team and buildings and NPCs?
Of course an exo is better at defence, EVERYTHING is better at defence, that is the point of defending, to make your units better. Of course an exo has counters, if it didn't have counters it would be overpowered. Of course the exo has risks, every marine upgrade has risks, even the shotgun trades long range for better performance at close range. The only thing in the game that doesn't trade something away is the jetpack, and even that is an unrecoverable upgrade. Marines are built around strength coming with weakness, the way to win as marines is to learn how to interconnect your strengths to negate each others' weaknesses.
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
Yes. An Onos is exactly what you just described, and it actually costs much less than an Exo while being much more powerful. (tres costs that go into the research + 75 pres trumps the requirements for an Onos).
Well again I would not say the dual exo is crap, just that its not quite where it should be in terms of usability. A dual exo or 2 can absolutely be a game changer in the hands of an accurate shooter if he has some welding support.
The single exo is an absolute waste of res. The only reason its EVER researched is because its a prerequisite to the dual exo.. that would be like if Aliens needed to 'research' fades and then 'research' onos.. its not balanced at the moment at all.
As I think about it more, I think the changes needed are as follows:
-Make the cost to research single & dual exo cheaper (you already had to spend a TON of res to upgrade advanced armory, AND a proto lab..)
-Allow the single exo suit to purchase weapons & welders to replace the fist , or make it upgradeable by commander for a cost (now THIS should be expensive as an exo + minigun + flamethrower would be pretty bad ass)
-Give the EXOs some way to escape - either make them beacon for an additional beacon cost (20 res to beacon marines & exos) or give them an emergency thruster where they can fly like a jetpacker with weapons disabled for 15 seconds) .. the thrusters should have a 'cooldown' period of 30 seconds so the exo cant just jetpack around all the time. Also the weapons would remain offline for about 5-10 seconds after he lands so that it would purely be an escape method, and not possible to be used for assault purposes.
As a side note, jetpacks need to cost MORE. They are WAY too effective to only cost 10 res. And a shotgun, while quite effective, costs too much IMO. An LMG is still almost as effective as shotgun so for 20 res, its just not worth it unless you cant aim with the LMG. Shotgun should cost 10 res, and jetpacks should cost 20. They have it backwards!
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
Yes. An Onos is exactly what you just described, and it actually costs much less than an Exo while being much more powerful. (tres costs that go into the research + 75 pres trumps the requirements for an Onos).
Exos are pretty crap.
No it's... not?
Onoses are powerful in direct combat yes but that's all they are, the lack strategic versatility, good movement options, any support options, and require at least oh, say 20% of their hitpoints just to enter and leave combat? Let alone to do so safely?
Put it this way, if what you're suggesting is true, the way to win would just be to build three or four onoses. That would be completely and utterly incontestable by anything ever.
When in fact that's simply not true, onoses are big and beefy yes, and yes four onoses would cause some pretty heavy damage, but I rather doubt they'd cause enough damage to be worth it given alien income rates if you just charged them all in unsupported. Onoses actually die pretty damn fast if you don't heal them or screen them with other aliens, because (and here's the key thing with marines,) every bloody marine in the room will unload into them because they're huge and loud and scary, and that'll hurt them after a surprisingly short time. Onoses struggle to break ten seconds of concentrated fire from a decent marine defence team, and if they have even one exo in support you can probably cut a third off your estimated time till death.
Onoses work very well when you accompany them with gorges to heal, lerks to umbra and spore everything, fades to help pick off jetpacks and generally catch marines when they scatter, and skulks because... well more skulks are always helpful. Onoses also need somewhere to retreat to which means keeping other aliens sieging the room, so that marines don't just chase the onos and shoot it down as it runs to heal. They also need a lot of healing so either they have to take regen (which cuts into their potential HP) or they need a lot of gorge support. They work very well as part of a combined arms approach, and that's exactly how the exo works. Exos will wreck onoses if, and ONLY if, the marines support them and screen them and scout for them and make sure they have good firing lines. The sheer DPS of an exo can allow it to shred an onos without taking a scratch, given enough time to fire. Sure you'll lose some regular marines in the process buying that time, but you still have the exo left, and the regular marines can phase right back in and pick up their gear, or at least the team as a whole can continue to use their gear.
Onoses are not an answer to every problem, they're a key component of alien lategame and base assault when properly supported, exactly as everyone with half a brain is suggesting the exo is.
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
Yes. An Onos is exactly what you just described, and it actually costs much less than an Exo while being much more powerful. (tres costs that go into the research + 75 pres trumps the requirements for an Onos).
Exos are pretty crap.
No it's... not?
Onoses are powerful in direct combat yes but that's all they are, the lack strategic versatility, good movement options, any support options, and require at least oh, say 20% of their hitpoints just to enter and leave combat? Let alone to do so safely?
Put it this way, if what you're suggesting is true, the way to win would just be to build three or four onoses. That would be completely and utterly incontestable by anything ever.
Onoses are not an answer to every problem, they're a key component of alien lategame and base assault when properly supported, exactly as everyone with half a brain is suggesting the exo is.
While I agree with you Onos are excellent when supported, I disagree they lack strategic versatility, lack good movement options or support options. (you are right in that 20% of their HP is required to survive and many people forget running into and out of combat essentially cuts their hp down from 10-20% depending on HP amount).
However, the fact is the Onos is one hell of a versatile and quick assault platforms, so much so it's strengths outclass all other aliens up until base turtles (and gorge bile bomb, for obvious reasons). The Onos can do hit and run tactics, they can tank and support (by simply existing next to another alien, they are acting as support by being a bullet sponge). In fact, an Onos can hit and run into a base with ease and pull out when the comm beacons or when their health reaches 50%. That is low liability you mentioned.
As you mentioned, they're also very good at defense. In fact, anywhere your Khammander would ever "quickly" need "a group" to do something, he can reduce the manpower cost of that by 3 skulks in offense OR defense due to its speed.
Including all of the above, there is also the fact the Onos is even better with teamwork. I'm not saying the Exo is useless, but it's considerably dwarfed by the Onos' survivability when alone, its mobility and its even lower skill floor. (The exo can't mess around when 2 skulks attack it alone but an Onos can take its time killing 2 marines due to Onos hp:marine DPS vs Exo hp:Skulk DPS and dodge speed) If the Onos lacked these strengths there would be considerably less complaining.
Also, the Onos can see everywhere on its screen, why can't the Exo with its cluttered HUD?
When I first started playing, I didn't realize the right mouse was required for the right gun, still killed Onos.
The big problem with Exo's is the players not being aggressive in an assault and not knowing when to retreat while laying down fire. There are also hit reg issues and many players can't aim.
There are no mouse look limits (aim at any angle), no recoil, no reloading for Exos.
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
Yes. An Onos is exactly what you just described, and it actually costs much less than an Exo while being much more powerful. (tres costs that go into the research + 75 pres trumps the requirements for an Onos).
Exos are pretty crap.
No it's... not?
Onoses are powerful in direct combat yes but that's all they are, the lack strategic versatility, good movement options, any support options, and require at least oh, say 20% of their hitpoints just to enter and leave combat? Let alone to do so safely?
Put it this way, if what you're suggesting is true, the way to win would just be to build three or four onoses. That would be completely and utterly incontestable by anything ever.
Onoses are not an answer to every problem, they're a key component of alien lategame and base assault when properly supported, exactly as everyone with half a brain is suggesting the exo is.
While I agree with you Onos are excellent when supported, I disagree they lack strategic versatility, lack good movement options or support options. (you are right in that 20% of their HP is required to survive and many people forget running into and out of combat essentially cuts their hp down from 10-20% depending on HP amount).
However, the fact is the Onos is one hell of a versatile and quick assault platforms, so much so it's strengths outclass all other aliens up until base turtles (and gorge bile bomb, for obvious reasons). The Onos can do hit and run tactics, they can tank and support (by simply existing next to another alien, they are acting as support by being a bullet sponge). In fact, an Onos can hit and run into a base with ease and pull out when the comm beacons or when their health reaches 50%. That is low liability you mentioned.
As you mentioned, they're also very good at defense. In fact, anywhere your Khammander would ever "quickly" need "a group" to do something, he can reduce the manpower cost of that by 3 skulks in offense OR defense due to its speed.
Including all of the above, there is also the fact the Onos is even better with teamwork. I'm not saying the Exo is useless, but it's considerably dwarfed by the Onos' survivability when alone, its mobility and its even lower skill floor. (The exo can't mess around when 2 skulks attack it alone but an Onos can take its time killing 2 marines due to Onos hp:marine DPS vs Exo hp:Skulk DPS and dodge speed) If the Onos lacked these strengths there would be considerably less complaining.
Also, the Onos can see everywhere on its screen, why can't the Exo with its cluttered HUD?
All aliens can do all of the things you mentioned, except possibly the fade which is a little lacking against buildings. The onos just does it with more HP and damage.
Yes onoses can run into and out of bases quite happily, but without support they can't actually do anything. For 75 res you get a much less mobile and much more obvious skulk, which is a big loss if you lose it. A skulk can run into an unoccupied base and cause strife for marines, a lerk can do it better, a fade can trigger a beacon and escape just as well. A lone onos running into a base won't last long enough to really kill anything (except maybe a marine) if it's defended, and if it's undefended, well, a fade or two skulks can both trigger a beacon as well as the onos can.
Onoses are good alone, yes, but all aliens are, their whole thing is that they're good on their own but marines are better when grouped up. One onos isn't really going to make an assault for aliens, but one exo can completely change a marine assault playstyle. Conversely, one lone onos is a serious threat for unequipped or small groups of marines, while one lone exo is not really a huge terror for a couple of good aliens. An exo in a group is more powerful than an onos in a group, an onos alone is more powerful than an exo alone, that's just how the sides work.
I suppose it's better put that onoses aren't BAD at strategic versatility, it's just that all other aliens are better at it, and cost a lot less, and can do it in a lot of different ways. A fade is a more reliable panic causer in bases, a skulk is a less risky structure harasser, and a lerk is... kinda like a skulk only it flies.
The 239 patch video actually shows some good footage about all of this. Exos show their strengths, onoses show just how much damage they will take from a marine, and highlight the issue I mentioned about them not being able to spend long enough to kill something if unsupported, and generally it's just a good example of some of the strengths and weaknesses of both units. The exo can quite easily wreck an undefended hive room (and does) just as well as an onos can wreck a base, if not better. Exos need support, and shine when they have it, onoses are lethal to few players but not as good as you'd think when trying to do anything other than kill players without support. It's just a good video really. http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/natural-selection-2-build-239-has-been-released/
Oh and I guess onos can see and exo can't because 1. exo is a robot suit, and 2. exo can shoot anywhere it can see, onos can't. I'll trade FOV for the ability to murder anything within my FOV.
What's funny is that the usefulness of the EXO is totally counter intuitive. It's designed to be a strong assault vehicle.
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
That's not even remotely similar to what I said.
Assault - confronting the enemy on their turf. Defence - sitting and defending your assets.
The EXO should be strong on assault. That doesn't mean invincible. The Onos is strong on assault, are you going to suggest that it is invincible? By all means, please do so.
No. What I am saying is that the marine team is SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKENED when they have people in EXOs and they leave base. That means that this supposed 'assault class' vehicle is anything but. If taking a unit out on an assault WEAKENS your team, then why would you do it? There are plenty of other ways to assault the aliens without EXOs and without weakening your team. A jetpack rush from a forward phase gate is miles ahead of any EXO assault. ARCs are also a superior solution to EXOs, since they too won't weaken the marine team with their existence outside of base. Only the EXO weakens the marine team the moment it leaves base.
In reality, as anybody playing the game will rather rapidly figure out, the exo is not an assault unit, and there is no conceivable way it could be designed as an assault unit, as I said last time you made that argument, because assaulting things is how marines win.
Well you better have a chat with the developers, since that is precisely what they classed the EXO as.
Full tech Duel Exo vs Full tech Onos - Exo wins. ... w3 Exo = walking death (with jumpjets!)
You have been playing against people who don't know how to play the Onos then. I run into them on occasion. The ones who don't get carapace or the ones that don't know that can't just stand in front of the EXO while his guns are blazing.
EXO versus Onos, the Onos will win every time when you have two skilled individuals at the controls. Circle strafe the EXO and make sure your model overlaps him. That gives the EXO absolutely NO visibility at all. Meanwhile your ass is swinging around to the side, and he can't even see it. So as all the bullets go flying forward, the Onos is at the side of the EXO out of the line of fire. If you are killing Onos with an EXO then those Onos have misplayed. It happens.
The exact same can be said about people that don't know how to play Exo.
And is it really difficult to understand, why a ranged Unit with damn high DPS needs to have less health than a melee unit with damn high DPS?
Anyway, that the onos with its low skill demand, isn't at the right spot now is no mystery. He needs a bone shield or something to introduce skill into its play style. But a bad example is nothing we should strive for the exo.
The exact same can be said about people that don't know how to play Exo.
EXO is much harder to play than Onos, and anyone who thinks it's just point and shoot is in for a rude awakening. Like I said, the Onos can blind the EXO with ease. If you are playing an Onos and you are not abusing that game mechanic then you are only gimping your own gameplay. Onos is not hard to play versus an EXO if you understand the failings of the EXO. Combine weapon spin-up time with ZERO visibility and you have an easy kill *IF* you know how to pull it off.
The only time I have ever unintentionally died as a Onos to an EXO was when I got impatient. Onos is easy mode if you understand alien gameplay. (The same kind of knowledge that says running at a marine as a skulk will get you killed very fast.)
Comments
I've summed up 11 pages for anyone just getting into it, dev confirmed it takes 17-19 (can't remember) direct bile hits to take an exo down.
Everyone saying dual exos are bad have also avoided the point I brought up earlier that a dual exo will drop a 100% mature hive to 64%, 43%, 12% and death in less than 15-20 seconds by itself while popping every single egg available to spawn from around the hive, 3 crags not over healing will not stop a dual exo from destroying a hive on it's 4th burst.
The best defence is offence, if you sit around in a base as dual you're a waste of oxygen and bandwidth unless it's absolutely necessary.
Anyway to clear some things out. This thread contains people with a couple of visions:
<b>1. Exo is worth nothing</b>
These people mainly think an exo should be an invisible tank whom cannot die.
<b>2. If handled right an exo is super</b>
These people generaly have the idea that, when handled correctly (spin up time, switching between lmb rmb) an exo is very good.
<b>3. Stop whining</b>
These people tend to watch more to an overal gamebalance and provide arguments as in an exo can kill a hive in 20 seconds (or what not).
Group 1. An exo is not a tank and should not become a tank. It is vurnable as is an onos walking into a room with 4 jetpackers.
Group 2. As I do think this group has a point, I don't believe this point is actually a good one. A good player can handle a fade much better then a poor one, saying that only a good player should be able to handle a fade is however false.
Group 3. Well I could sum this in my overall statement:
In my opinoin exo's can be fixed in a rather simple way. The main "frustration" / "irritation" of people who tend to lose 75 rescources to an exo is due to the fact that it's pretty much useless when it's not guarded by welders or macs. Ofcourse you can compare this to an onos (which can walk around the map not caring about support and still survive easily) but I do believe this is more of a overall gamebalance thing.
Exo's should not be a walking invisible tank because it would be way to easy to walk acros the map and kill a hive single handed. Something an onos could never do (unless the com is fairly new I suppose).
As to my sollution. Fix the hud.
This is more or less how the current hud looks like (not sure if this is latest version but this is the only image I could find this fast).: <a href="http://www.hbhud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/14.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.hbhud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/14.jpg</a>
You cannot see the exo's feet. This point of the exo is rather vurnable (skulks). If the exo's field of view would be increased, some of the most prominent hud elements would be removed and the annoying flashing targetting stuff would be simplefied most of the problems will probably be fixed.
But again this is just my idea. And to join myselve up in the comparing group: Onos have full fov, why don't exo have atleast something close to that...
Other to that I also believe that exo's should recieve auto repair from nearby armories. All alien units recieve hp from nearby hives and crags so why can't exo's recieve atleast something simulair to that.
1)the power claw exo should 1 shot a skulk,this way it could became a better alternative,since skulks are so annoyng when you are in the suit
2)the commander cant deploy dual minigun exo,why?,the aliens can deploy onos eggs with 3 hives,why dont allow to the commander to deploy them if you have let's say 3 command stations
Because they can recieve auto repair anywhere from a MAC. They are a mechanical unit, not a marine, they don't wear body armor, armories don't repair things.
You have a unit that has the heaviest armor and firepower on the marine team, and it can have another unit follow it around and give it constant health regeneration, as can most normal marines at the point when the exo is likely to be fielded. I don't think what that unit needs is the ability to armory hump.
Useful guide:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=121084402#7906
A skulk needs 16 direct hits to kill an EXO lvl 3 armour. That equals to about 7-9 seconds(Not sure what the exact attack speed is as the wiki is down). Which means that an EXO needs an escort at all times for repair and support for it to be useful. Also for an EXO to a good investment you need to be able to keep it alive for a substantial amount of time.
Feel free to disagree, but the reality is that you may think the EXO is fine, but most people think it is a waste of res. (especially the 50 res EXO) People don't play a game to be running around with a welder out pressing M1 for 10 minutes. That's not fun, and if it is not fun it doesn't belong in the game.
If it's not the skulk killing in 7 seconds, the gorge can do it in 10 seconds. This is the 'ultimate' marine weapon? It's a liability, plain and simple. Instead of the 'ultimate weapon' protecting others, people have to protect it since it's so freaking fragile that the minute it's out of base it's a walking target. The EXO does best sitting in base on defence not moving.
It's the "buy exos/evolve onos and we auto win" mentality. It just doesn't work that way.
With each day that passes more and more people are learning that as an alien, the EXO is not a real threat. When they approach it that way the EXOs die really fast. Even if you play the EXO perfectly, all it takes is on skulk on the power node in your main base to yank away your welders and doom you to a quick death.
You haven't convinced me at the 5th page of this thread and you will not convince me on the 9th. So please let this thread finally die. Everything has been said.
So Savant I agree to a certain extent as I said before , the dual exo can be somewhat effective at certain tasks and I buy one every chance I get. Its true a skulk can kill me in 7 seconds but with my mediocre aiming ability I can usually kill that skulk in about .5 - 1 second unless hes one of those super-skulks who seem to bounce around at impossible rates while landing every bite..
The single exo is agreeably a total waste of money.
Yet the EXO can sit in a marine base and be extraordinarily powerful. Park him on top of the comm chair and aliens are significantly hindered if they want to bust a base. All that EXO needs is one marine welder or a few MACs and he's good to go. However, all that really does is prolong a turtle.
Take that same EXO out of base and you have a big liability. Not only is the marine base at risk from an alien rush (since your EXOs can't get back in time) if marines beacon the EXOs are sitting ducks. All this happens the moment the EXOs leave base. Even if you get no beacon, you have to have a couple marines sitting with welders out pressing M1 for 10 minutes to keep the EXOs alive.
I'm sorry, but most people don't find that very fun.
1) Supporting a push by other units - light marines/JPs, ARCs. This means not LEADING the charge, but hanging back and providing the overwhelming firepower the marines so desperately need since the Alterra HMG factory is no longer online (give us back our HMGs, damn it!)
2) Defending important bases. Yes, defense. Yes, I'd rather have the Exo out supporting a push, but sometimes the timing isn't right and playing defensively for a short period of time discourages aliens from launching mini attacks on my bases. I was comming on one of the KKG servers last night on ns2_tram, and we kept having gorges try to rush Repair Room to the point of being obnoxious. The moment a dual exo was up, I asked him to go to Repair and defend it - with the implicit understanding that it was only a temp assignment. There was peace in Repair Room thereafter. A few JPs and another duallie eventually showed up, and next thing I know we got Ore Processing on lockdown - temp assignment over.
I used to like the multiple exosuit push with welder support, but I've since learned that it is usually followed by a massive rush on one of our vacant bases, triggering a beacon, leaving those exos stranded up gorge creek without a welder.
I get JP first.. but if they want exo, they can have it.. asuming only a third max will go exo.
By the time we 'can' upgrade exo, I have been shouting orders enough to realise if they will obey or not. If I am sure they will not obey, and thus waste res on exo's.. they are not going to get any.
I see what you are saying. What changes would you suggest UWE make? I think it would be difficult to make the Exo a proper assault unit without making it overpowered. If it moved faster, or had more armor, or both, it would be too powerful IMO.
Personally I think if they just allowed the exos to weld and, interact with structures, even if it meant jumping out of the suit that would help a lot. Also as I said before, the single exo should be able to upgrade the fist to things like a welder, flame or GL. This would mean people actually bought the stupid useless things and had fun with it!
As for the EXO being so slow that it is a liability, how about if it had some sort of escape method, like thrusters you can activate that speed up its movement for a quick sprint back to base, but during that time your weapons are disabled.
Even something like having the EXOs beacon with the team would improve the EXO's value on the field. As it stands now, you are better to take out jetpacks to go after a hive since if your base gets attack you can ALL beacon back.
What about a two stage beacon? When the klaxon sounds for 3 seconds, the marines are beaconed, then the klaxon keeps sounding for 3 more seconds and the EXOs are beaconed. So it becomes a two-stage beacon. This prevents a commander from using beacon to 'rescue' an EXO under attack.
I also agree that EXOs could use more mobility features that don't necessarily make it harder to kill. An 'escape' mechanism would be helpful, and as you noted the weapons would be offline during use since all power goes to propulsion.
We could think outside the box... What about if the EXO was *more* powerful in rooms without power and *less* powerful in rooms -with- power? The concept being that the power nodes interfere with the EXOs targeting systems. This makes it so that it's harder for the EXO to defend, but deadlier on the attack. Everything comes with a tradeoff. Or if more damage is too much, make it more armor. If a power node is active it conflicts with the EXO's "shields" and so it has 'standard' armor. However, in areas where power nodes are down, the EXO gets extra armor from 'shields'. (this would just be semantics - all that would happen is that EXO armor would increase)
I also would like to see the EXO get the 100 health from the marine added to it. If armor needs to be reduced to keep it at the same level, that's fine. However, the EXO shouldn't be an amor only vehicle when NONE of the marine structures or the MAC/ARC are armor only. The EXO is the only one in the game with no health. There is a marine in there, let's have the marine health on the EXO. Give it the 100 health. This will prevent gorge bile kills from bile *alone*. They can use spit, or have a skulk get in there and finish it, but this benefits the EXO on assault, it does nothing to benefit him on defence.
There is much that can be done to improve the EXO if the developers have the wherewithal to do so.
They also show several marines shooting an onos with LMGs while riding a tram around in the promotional art. Promotional art is exactly that, promotional, it is not, generally, realistic. They also released a trailer showing a fade taking a minute or two to kill three basic marines without anybody moving more than about twenty feet. Saying 'it's in the poster' is a ridiculous argument for how it was 'designed' to be.
In reality, as anybody playing the game will rather rapidly figure out, the exo is not an assault unit, and there is no conceivable way it could be designed as an assault unit, as I said last time you made that argument, because assaulting things is how marines win.
Let's break down what you mean by 'assault'. From what I'm gathering, an assault unit for you is one which can completely make an attack on a heavily fortified and defended alien hive. Which is to say, it is a unit which can take on every alien lifeform, every alien building, in the very heart of alien territory, and win. Also it cannot, apparently, carry any risk of significant loss with it, or have an easy counter to its use, because that makes it a 'liability'
So to put it another way, an 'strong assault vehicle' for you is something that fights everything and wins, cannot be easily countered, works in any attack, and is easily salvageable if the attack doesn't go as planned.
Does it perhaps strike you that such a unit would have some potential balance issues with it? Do you think maybe that such a unit would be describable as a 'win button' in the sense that it can literally do everything the marines need to do in order to win? Can you think of a reasonable and realistic way that such a unit could meet all of those criteria, and somehow not be universally better on defence, in the heart of marine territory, supported by team and buildings and NPCs?
Of course an exo is better at defence, EVERYTHING is better at defence, that is the point of defending, to make your units better. Of course an exo has counters, if it didn't have counters it would be overpowered. Of course the exo has risks, every marine upgrade has risks, even the shotgun trades long range for better performance at close range. The only thing in the game that doesn't trade something away is the jetpack, and even that is an unrecoverable upgrade. Marines are built around strength coming with weakness, the way to win as marines is to learn how to interconnect your strengths to negate each others' weaknesses.
Yes. An Onos is exactly what you just described, and it actually costs much less than an Exo while being much more powerful. (tres costs that go into the research + 75 pres trumps the requirements for an Onos).
Exos are pretty crap.
The single exo is an absolute waste of res. The only reason its EVER researched is because its a prerequisite to the dual exo.. that would be like if Aliens needed to 'research' fades and then 'research' onos.. its not balanced at the moment at all.
As I think about it more, I think the changes needed are as follows:
-Make the cost to research single & dual exo cheaper (you already had to spend a TON of res to upgrade advanced armory, AND a proto lab..)
-Allow the single exo suit to purchase weapons & welders to replace the fist , or make it upgradeable by commander for a cost (now THIS should be expensive as an exo + minigun + flamethrower would be pretty bad ass)
-Give the EXOs some way to escape - either make them beacon for an additional beacon cost (20 res to beacon marines & exos) or give them an emergency thruster where they can fly like a jetpacker with weapons disabled for 15 seconds) .. the thrusters should have a 'cooldown' period of 30 seconds so the exo cant just jetpack around all the time. Also the weapons would remain offline for about 5-10 seconds after he lands so that it would purely be an escape method, and not possible to be used for assault purposes.
As a side note, jetpacks need to cost MORE. They are WAY too effective to only cost 10 res. And a shotgun, while quite effective, costs too much IMO. An LMG is still almost as effective as shotgun so for 20 res, its just not worth it unless you cant aim with the LMG. Shotgun should cost 10 res, and jetpacks should cost 20. They have it backwards!
No it's... not?
Onoses are powerful in direct combat yes but that's all they are, the lack strategic versatility, good movement options, any support options, and require at least oh, say 20% of their hitpoints just to enter and leave combat? Let alone to do so safely?
Put it this way, if what you're suggesting is true, the way to win would just be to build three or four onoses. That would be completely and utterly incontestable by anything ever.
When in fact that's simply not true, onoses are big and beefy yes, and yes four onoses would cause some pretty heavy damage, but I rather doubt they'd cause enough damage to be worth it given alien income rates if you just charged them all in unsupported. Onoses actually die pretty damn fast if you don't heal them or screen them with other aliens, because (and here's the key thing with marines,) every bloody marine in the room will unload into them because they're huge and loud and scary, and that'll hurt them after a surprisingly short time. Onoses struggle to break ten seconds of concentrated fire from a decent marine defence team, and if they have even one exo in support you can probably cut a third off your estimated time till death.
Onoses work very well when you accompany them with gorges to heal, lerks to umbra and spore everything, fades to help pick off jetpacks and generally catch marines when they scatter, and skulks because... well more skulks are always helpful. Onoses also need somewhere to retreat to which means keeping other aliens sieging the room, so that marines don't just chase the onos and shoot it down as it runs to heal. They also need a lot of healing so either they have to take regen (which cuts into their potential HP) or they need a lot of gorge support. They work very well as part of a combined arms approach, and that's exactly how the exo works. Exos will wreck onoses if, and ONLY if, the marines support them and screen them and scout for them and make sure they have good firing lines. The sheer DPS of an exo can allow it to shred an onos without taking a scratch, given enough time to fire. Sure you'll lose some regular marines in the process buying that time, but you still have the exo left, and the regular marines can phase right back in and pick up their gear, or at least the team as a whole can continue to use their gear.
Onoses are not an answer to every problem, they're a key component of alien lategame and base assault when properly supported, exactly as everyone with half a brain is suggesting the exo is.
While I agree with you Onos are excellent when supported, I disagree they lack strategic versatility, lack good movement options or support options. (you are right in that 20% of their HP is required to survive and many people forget running into and out of combat essentially cuts their hp down from 10-20% depending on HP amount).
However, the fact is the Onos is one hell of a versatile and quick assault platforms, so much so it's strengths outclass all other aliens up until base turtles (and gorge bile bomb, for obvious reasons). The Onos can do hit and run tactics, they can tank and support (by simply existing next to another alien, they are acting as support by being a bullet sponge). In fact, an Onos can hit and run into a base with ease and pull out when the comm beacons or when their health reaches 50%. That is low liability you mentioned.
As you mentioned, they're also very good at defense. In fact, anywhere your Khammander would ever "quickly" need "a group" to do something, he can reduce the manpower cost of that by 3 skulks in offense OR defense due to its speed.
Including all of the above, there is also the fact the Onos is even better with teamwork. I'm not saying the Exo is useless, but it's considerably dwarfed by the Onos' survivability when alone, its mobility and its even lower skill floor. (The exo can't mess around when 2 skulks attack it alone but an Onos can take its time killing 2 marines due to Onos hp:marine DPS vs Exo hp:Skulk DPS and dodge speed) If the Onos lacked these strengths there would be considerably less complaining.
Also, the Onos can see everywhere on its screen, why can't the Exo with its cluttered HUD?
When I first started playing, I didn't realize the right mouse was required for the right gun, still killed Onos.
The big problem with Exo's is the players not being aggressive in an assault and not knowing when to retreat while laying down fire. There are also hit reg issues and many players can't aim.
There are no mouse look limits (aim at any angle), no recoil, no reloading for Exos.
w3 Exo = walking death (with jumpjets!)
All aliens can do all of the things you mentioned, except possibly the fade which is a little lacking against buildings. The onos just does it with more HP and damage.
Yes onoses can run into and out of bases quite happily, but without support they can't actually do anything. For 75 res you get a much less mobile and much more obvious skulk, which is a big loss if you lose it. A skulk can run into an unoccupied base and cause strife for marines, a lerk can do it better, a fade can trigger a beacon and escape just as well. A lone onos running into a base won't last long enough to really kill anything (except maybe a marine) if it's defended, and if it's undefended, well, a fade or two skulks can both trigger a beacon as well as the onos can.
Onoses are good alone, yes, but all aliens are, their whole thing is that they're good on their own but marines are better when grouped up. One onos isn't really going to make an assault for aliens, but one exo can completely change a marine assault playstyle. Conversely, one lone onos is a serious threat for unequipped or small groups of marines, while one lone exo is not really a huge terror for a couple of good aliens. An exo in a group is more powerful than an onos in a group, an onos alone is more powerful than an exo alone, that's just how the sides work.
I suppose it's better put that onoses aren't BAD at strategic versatility, it's just that all other aliens are better at it, and cost a lot less, and can do it in a lot of different ways. A fade is a more reliable panic causer in bases, a skulk is a less risky structure harasser, and a lerk is... kinda like a skulk only it flies.
The 239 patch video actually shows some good footage about all of this. Exos show their strengths, onoses show just how much damage they will take from a marine, and highlight the issue I mentioned about them not being able to spend long enough to kill something if unsupported, and generally it's just a good example of some of the strengths and weaknesses of both units. The exo can quite easily wreck an undefended hive room (and does) just as well as an onos can wreck a base, if not better. Exos need support, and shine when they have it, onoses are lethal to few players but not as good as you'd think when trying to do anything other than kill players without support. It's just a good video really. http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/natural-selection-2-build-239-has-been-released/
Oh and I guess onos can see and exo can't because 1. exo is a robot suit, and 2. exo can shoot anywhere it can see, onos can't. I'll trade FOV for the ability to murder anything within my FOV.
Assault - confronting the enemy on their turf. Defence - sitting and defending your assets.
The EXO should be strong on assault. That doesn't mean invincible. The Onos is strong on assault, are you going to suggest that it is invincible? By all means, please do so.
No. What I am saying is that the marine team is SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKENED when they have people in EXOs and they leave base. That means that this supposed 'assault class' vehicle is anything but. If taking a unit out on an assault WEAKENS your team, then why would you do it? There are plenty of other ways to assault the aliens without EXOs and without weakening your team. A jetpack rush from a forward phase gate is miles ahead of any EXO assault. ARCs are also a superior solution to EXOs, since they too won't weaken the marine team with their existence outside of base. Only the EXO weakens the marine team the moment it leaves base.
Well you better have a chat with the developers, since that is precisely what they classed the EXO as.
EXO versus Onos, the Onos will win every time when you have two skilled individuals at the controls. Circle strafe the EXO and make sure your model overlaps him. That gives the EXO absolutely NO visibility at all. Meanwhile your ass is swinging around to the side, and he can't even see it. So as all the bullets go flying forward, the Onos is at the side of the EXO out of the line of fire. If you are killing Onos with an EXO then those Onos have misplayed. It happens.
And is it really difficult to understand, why a ranged Unit with damn high DPS needs to have less health than a melee unit with damn high DPS?
Anyway, that the onos with its low skill demand, isn't at the right spot now is no mystery. He needs a bone shield or something to introduce skill into its play style. But a bad example is nothing we should strive for the exo.
The only time I have ever unintentionally died as a Onos to an EXO was when I got impatient. Onos is easy mode if you understand alien gameplay. (The same kind of knowledge that says running at a marine as a skulk will get you killed very fast.)