<!--quoteo(post=2065051:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:55 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 22 2013, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excuse me? When has a solo Onos EVER been killed off by a solo marine. Ever as is EVER in the history of the NS2.
It will never happen since you need to have a 95% greater accuracy rate and put all 5 clips into the Onos, WHILE STAYING ALIVE for a half minute. The only way that is happening is if the player is AFK.
So please, no BS about solo Onos being weak. Weak against what? Unless the Onos gets confronted with clearly superior firepower, there is nothing in the game that can threaten the Onos one-on-one, and that includes a dual-mini EXO. (so long as the Onos isn't taken by surprise as he's typing or something, he will be able to kill a solo EXO with ease.)
I ask again, please tell me what a solo Onos is 'weak' against.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
jp shotgun. major deterrent for onos. something you can't hit and can chase you down.
what is it, like 4-5 shots to kill a skulk in an exo?
<!--quoteo(post=2026948:date=Nov 18 2012, 03:45 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 18 2012, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even without upgrades, a smart solo onos absolutely decimates a solo exo. That being said, it's a heck of a lot more than 350: Armor innately absorbs some of the damage it receives.
I don't really remember the exact details, but an onos hits structure for about 200 damage, and it takes a good 6 or 7 hits to take out an exo. I'm thinking it works out to around 1200 or so effective health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos' attack vs exo's is heavy, and thus treats armor as 1:1. Full hp exo (580?) takes 580 damage from an onos to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=2065051:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:55 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 22 2013, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excuse me? When has a solo Onos EVER been killed off by a solo marine. Ever as is EVER in the history of the NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take it you don't play that much, I've been killed by a jp+sg as onos and killed an onos with jp+sg many of a time.
<!--quoteo(post=2065141:date=Jan 22 2013, 08:14 PM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 22 2013, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it you don't play that much, I've been killed by a jp+sg as onos and killed an onos with jp+sg many of a time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I play plenty, and if an Onos is getting rolled by a jetpacker they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you're an Onos in a place like Cargo on Veil, then you don't sit around letting yourself get killed while they hang out on the containers. You move into the hall, and when they come after you they die. Furthermore, a **SOLO** Onos shouldn't be the only one defending a hive. As for hallways and such, a jetpacker is toast. He won't have enough sustained thrust to stay ahead of the Onos. Again, exceptions come into play in an area like Courtyard on Docking, but again if you are in a place like that you don't hang around. Move to a hall and let him come to his death.
Even still, it really depends on how you play it. If you just flee blindly then you're inviting death.
However, the point I was making is that the EXO is not a tank. The EXO is a tinderbox that can be killed in 6, 7 and 8 seconds by the Onos, Skulk and Gorge respectively.
Show me some videos of marines soloing an Onos in that length of time and I'll be happy to redact my remarks.
<!--quoteo(post=2065149:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:26 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 22 2013, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I play plenty, and if an Onos is getting rolled by a jetpacker they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you're an Onos in a place like Cargo on Veil, then you don't sit around letting yourself get killed while they hang out on the containers. You move into the hall, and when they come after you they die. Furthermore, a **SOLO** Onos shouldn't be the only one defending a hive. As for hallways and such, a jetpacker is toast. He won't have enough sustained thrust to stay ahead of the Onos. Again, exceptions come into play in an area like Courtyard on Docking, but again if you are in a place like that you don't hang around. Move to a hall and let him come to his death.
Even still, it really depends on how you play it. If you just flee blindly then you're inviting death.
However, the point I was making is that the EXO is not a tank. The EXO is a tinderbox that can be killed in 6, 7 and 8 seconds by the Onos, Skulk and Gorge respectively.
Show me some videos of marines soloing an Onos in that length of time and I'll be happy to redact my remarks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always thought of Onos as Starcraft 2 Broodlord. If you let the enemy team get to them and they're not already bleeding and dying on one or maybe two hives, you deserve the loss. So basically, UWE made it so Onos ARE aliens i-win buttons. If they appear on the field you deserve to lose. The exception is the 1 or two people who didn't go higher lifeform while their team was being heavily pressed in the hopes they'd survive long enough.
<!--quoteo(post=2065088:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:56 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 22 2013, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The onos' attack vs exo's is heavy, and thus treats armor as 1:1. Full hp exo (580?) takes 580 damage from an onos to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
620, takes 7 hits, 6 if you can get some charge bonus damage, much more if someone is welding (even a mac, onos can't do ###### about macs on an exo).
base trades do not favor marines because marines take time to build their bases back up while aliens are free to keep pressure up while the alien comm does everything by himself.
<!--quoteo(post=2065255:date=Jan 22 2013, 08:28 PM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 22 2013, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->620, takes 7 hits, 6 if you can get some charge bonus damage, much more if someone is welding (even a mac, onos can't do ###### about macs on an exo).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless it's been changed recently, an Exo's full health is 580 armor. Also, Macs are nullified by 1 bilebomb. If there were several macs welding the Exo, then the Exo is no longer just 75 res. Also, Macs weld slower compared to a welder marine who heals slower compared to a single gorge. Savant, do you still have the numbers on heal rates for Macs/Welders/Gorge? I think you posted them in another thread somewhere in the past.
<!--quoteo(post=2065149:date=Jan 22 2013, 11:26 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 22 2013, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show me some videos of marines soloing an Onos in that length of time and I'll be happy to redact my remarks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines aren't <i>supposed</i> to solo aliens, that's the entire point of marines, exos aren't supposed to completely break the entire marine team dynamic, they're supposed to enhance it, and they do. They suck, as does every marine tech, base, weapon, or ability, if used solo. If used in correct combination, they're very useful. Marines are a collection of things that are useful when put together.
<!--quoteo(post=2065455:date=Jan 23 2013, 12:00 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 23 2013, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines aren't <i>supposed</i> to solo aliens, that's the entire point of marines, exos aren't supposed to completely break the entire marine team dynamic, they're supposed to enhance it, and they do. They suck, as does every marine tech, base, weapon, or ability, if used solo. If used in correct combination, they're very useful. Marines are a collection of things that are useful when put together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As for 'soloing', I really don't want to get into the semantics of that debate, so change my remark to two marines. Doesn't really matter one or two, so let's call it two versus an Onos. They're still dead. Three? Same thing. Only once you hit four or five marines would an Onos perceive them as a potential threat.
As for EXOs, they suck REGARDLESS of how they are used.
Can they be used, successfully, in the game as it stands currently? Of course!
Hey, right now the game clearly favours the aliens. The DEVELOPERS know this, the players know this. We've been sitting at a solid 60% alien win rate for well over a month now. Yet despite an imbalance that <b>clearly </b>favours aliens, the marines win games. Yes marines can win games, and marines do win games. The problem is that most of those wins are because we have so many new players in the game. It's why when NS2 released the win/loss rate for aliens was 51/49, but a month later it was 66/33. Once people learn how to play, they quickly learn how fragile the marine team really is. It's also easy to overcome the 'threat' the EXO might pose. (since if you play the game right - you don't treat the EXO as a threat, you treat it as a chance to win)
What about the EXO, can it be used to help win a marine team a game? Again, sure it can. The problem with the EXO is that it relies on poor play by the alien team to be effective. In a game with equally skilled teams, the EXO is a liability. It's why in competitive games the marines only win ~33% of games compared to ~40% on public servers. Frankly, I would be surprised if many of those competitive marine wins actually involved the EXO in any meaningful way at all. (I welcome competitive players to fill me in on what tend to be the winning strats for marines of late.)
The EXO isn't really bad, it's just not any good. It does well the things it is NOT supposed to do well, and does poorly the things it is supposed to do well. The EXO is supposed to be an assault vehicle, yet the moment you take it out of base its combat effectiveness drops like a rock.
Again, as I have said before, the EXO is a liability. If you send EXOs out to the front line, any alien team with equal skill to your own can defeat you since with all things equal, it is far too easy to overcome an EXO attack. All one needs to do is a B&B attack (beacon and bile) and all those fancy EXOs are toast. It only takes ONE 10 res gorge to kill as many EXOs as are left behind when the marines are forced to beacon. My record is four, meaning I took out 300 res with one 10 res alien. And lived. And LOLed. And watched as the marines F4'd because of it. And had to switch servers since most of them left the server in disgust.
What bothers me the most about the EXO is not how lousy it is, but that UWE used the EXO in all of its ads, making a show of this big 'mech' taking on the aliens - when in reality those battles end quickly and poorly for any EXO. I have lost count of how many "WTF?" I have seen after a newer player in an EXO was rolled with ease, despite being in the 'ultimate marine weapon'. If anything I think the EXO pisses off more new players than anything, and that's bad for the game.
In the end, if the EXO wasn't as craptastic as it is, would there be a 60% alien win rate? I don't think there would be. While a portion of those marine games are lost early, many are lost later when a team unwittingly sends out a team of EXOs. So long as EXOs can't be left alone for 5 seconds for fear of dying, it means that the foot marines with them (running around with welders out pressing M1 - wow that's some fun gameplay right there!) will be unable to respond to a base attack without a beacon. Once that beacon happens, the game is over. The EXOs are dead, or the base is gone, or both.
That's why the EXOs are nothing more than a liability to a skilled marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=2065471:date=Jan 23 2013, 05:58 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 23 2013, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, as I have said before, the EXO is a liability. If you send EXOs out to the front line, any alien team with equal skill to your own can defeat you since with all things equal, it is far too easy to overcome an EXO attack. All one needs to do is a B&B attack (beacon and bile) and all those fancy EXOs are toast. It only takes ONE 10 res gorge to kill as many EXOs as are left behind when the marines are forced to beacon. My record is four, meaning I took out 300 res with one 10 res alien. And lived. And LOLed. And watched as the marines F4'd because of it. And had to switch servers since most of them left the server in disgust.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem begins, where you need to beacon. You exaggerate. The EXO can work very good as assault, when you not forget to defend your base. You need less than 2 Exos and 2 Jetpack+welder. To make a successful push on a hive. The rest of the team can defend. Or if you have a good team, that knows how tactical positioning works, you can even attack another hive at the same time, while cutting any alien that even tries to move in the direction of the marine bases.
What you describe sounds the same like, when the whole team buys GLs and tries a hive rush with this. And than they are wondering that it doesn't work.
I don't even have a problem when I'm alone in an exo for a short time. 2 aliens up to fades are no problem. You may want to try to position yourself a bit better. The exo is a strong unit, but because of obvious reasons it isn't unbeatable. You can die as onos too if you don't know how to play with it.
<!--quoteo(post=2065474:date=Jan 23 2013, 01:10 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 23 2013, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem begins, where you need to beacon. You exaggerate. The EXO can work very good as assault, when you not forget to defend your base. You need less than 2 Exos and 2 Jetpack+welder. To make a successful push on a hive. The rest of the team can defend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->On an 8 player team, how do you 'defend your base' and the EXOs at the same time? You have 1 commander and 2 EXOs. Let's say you have two welders with jetpacks. Are you saying 2 EXOs should be able to defeat 8 aliens? The jetpackers are easily spored out of the air, while gorges hit the EXOs with a few bile bombs. So you are saying you can defend against that *AND* take on the Onos sitting around the corner, all with 2 EXOs and 2 jetpackers? Not against an equally skilled alien team you are not. A team of newbies maybe...
Furthermore, let's say you have your 3 players sitting in base waiting for that attack. Just how are you going to defend against a couple Onos and a lerk hitting your base? Your three mobile marines are no match for them alone, you have to beacon. In no situation will 3 marines be a sufficient deterrent against anything but a skulk solo rush.
The inherent problem with EXOs is that it forces marines to<b> SPLIT THEIR FORCES</b>. Any time they do that it ends badly for marines. That's why EXOs are so bad for marines, since they weaken the team by the very nature of their slow movement and inability to beacon. Once they leave base, the aliens only need to wait until they know the EXOs are far enough away from marine spawn to attack. Once they do they can either win the game, or cripple the marines, while the EXOs lumber around the map nowhere near a hive. They become a tasty metal treat for the gorges later when the other marines are trying to regroup at their second base.
I'm sure you can continue to construct cases in which Exos would not succeed in this rush. That doesn't mean, that there aren't enough cases in which they work. And I'm not talking of a noob-team. In nearly no case have the aliens the time to get all together (8) against the 4 pushing marines. They are always split up. You can even force this by having the other group of marines attacking on another front line. You only have to make sure, that the com knows where the aliens are. And that the players cut the ways to the base. Even if some aliens slip through, the com knows long before and can order the exos into a safe distance from the hive, so they can defend them selfs for the time that the marines need after abeacon to come back.
Again: If the marines are good, they don't need to stay in base and defend. They attack another alien location on ways that cut aliens the path to the marine base. The attacking Exos use paths that don't allow an onos to sneak up on the marine base. Its all intel and positioning.
Exos don't force marines to split up. They allow marines to split up. Because of the greater firepower and survivability. You don't need a whole team of exos to rush a hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2065483:date=Jan 23 2013, 05:24 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 23 2013, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The inherent problem with EXOs is that it forces marines to<b> SPLIT THEIR FORCES</b>. Any time they do that it ends badly for marines. That's why EXOs are so bad for marines, since they weaken the team by the very nature of their slow movement and inability to beacon. Once they leave base, the aliens only need to wait until they know the EXOs are far enough away from marine spawn to attack. Once they do they can either win the game, or cripple the marines, while the EXOs lumber around the map nowhere near a hive. They become a tasty metal treat for the gorges later when the other marines are trying to regroup at their second base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like I said 20 times before there is a good measure for how many Exos a marine team should have. It should not be 50 nor 40%, more like 20 or max 30%. Also it's heavily dependend on the team size. A Team of 12 with 3 Exos will stop any 3 onos push on power node as good as without exos but the attack in which the Exos participate will get 5x stronger simply because of DPS.
You go on making more and more elaborate reasons why exos are bad but you keep on denying the fact that they can ramp up and sustain DPS of a both much higher magnitude AND longer period than any light marine setup can ever do.
What you do really is just like saying "boo boo GL soo bad... if whole team gets one they all get eaten by one skulk booo booo" OF course a team of 8 with 7 gl marines sucks hard. The same team with 1 GL however will be considerably stronger in more than 90% of all situations than the same team without any GL. Same for Exos!
The dual EXO really is one of the very few things that UWE actually did manage to balance more or less correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=2065488:date=Jan 23 2013, 01:31 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 23 2013, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure you can continue to construct cases in which Exos would not succeed in this rush. That doesn't mean, that there aren't enough cases in which they work. And I'm not talking of a noob-team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As I mentioned above... <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->The EXO isn't really bad, it's just not any good. It does well the things it is NOT supposed to do well, and does poorly the things it is supposed to do well. The EXO is supposed to be an assault vehicle, yet the moment you take it out of base its combat effectiveness drops like a rock.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not saying marines can never succeed with an EXO push. I've done it many times. However, every time I've done it the aliens haven't been skilled enough to properly counter it. Against an equally skilled alien team I can count on one hand the number of games I have been in where an EXO push actually won us the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In nearly no case have the aliens the time to get all together (8) against the 4 pushing marines. They are always split up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If your hive is being attacked, and you're out chomping on an extractor, then you are playing the game wrong. When marines are making an assault on your hive you should be in one of two places - in the hive, or at a marine tech point. That's it. If at a marine tech point you'll be able to cut the 4 marines down to 2 once the others are forced to beacon. At that point your 5 aliens can make quick work of the two pathetic EXOs getting biled to death.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can even force this by having the other group of marines attacking on another front line. You only have to make sure, that the com knows where the aliens are. And that the players cut the ways to the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not possible. The game is designed so that it is IMPOSSIBLE to block off all methods of travel to any given area. That's why they have vents. That's why they can fly/blink. Only the gorge and Onos would potentially have trouble passing a blockade, and even then only if they didn't pick an alternate path.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if some aliens slip through, the com knows long before and can order the exos into a safe distance from the hive, so they can defend them selfs for the time that the marines need after abeacon to come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guarantee that I can kill any group of EXOs before marines return if I am a gorge when the marines beacon. NO chance and NO hope for them. Period. There are very few places on ANY map where marines could camp and cover all possible methods of attack. Even that really long hallway on the east side to Cargo on the Veil map is easy. Send one Gorge in from each end, when they fire in one direction you come in from the other. You're guaranteed to get ONE bile bomb in, even if you die in the process. Wait five seconds and send the second gorge in. Again, you are guaranteed to get one bile hit before dying. All it takes is TWO bile hits and the EXOs are dead. No marine group can get back in under 10 seconds. No gorges? Send in a couple Onos. You'll lose one Onos, but you'll kill both EXOs.
Beacon is an alien 'I win' button for balanced teams. Every time. The only time it isn't is against a team that significantly outskill.
You do realise that most of your objections to the exo appear to be entirely founded on 'Oh but if the aliens know what you're doing they can do this to counter it perfectly', the response to which is 'well duh?'
Of course if the aliens know exactly what you're doing, can coordinate a completely appropriate response rapidly, deploy it effectively, and overall be entirely better than the marine team, they will win. And yes, it is extremely easy for you, as one person, to say 'Oh well if the marines are doing this this and this then I would do that that and that and that would win me the game, your silly marine tactics are bad, marines suck gg'. However if it was as easy to put into practice as it was to theorycraft, what would be the point in actually playing?
The fact is, in an actual game, the aliens won't know what you're doing perfectly, they won't be able to organise instantly and ideally to respond optimally to a situation, and they won't be able to deploy a guaranteed successful combat force to achieve any objective they set out to. Neither will the marines. The game is decided by strategic play and tactical combat. In both of those there is a great element of uncertainty as to how any given situation will unfold, and a great absence of information no matter how good your scouting forces are.
If the aliens decide to concertedly push the marine base, then marines could simply rush jetpacks and sneak a guy into alien territory without touching infestation with one and build a ninja PG and rush through while an exo or two holds the base. That is a perfect strategy assuming marines can actually pull all that off and they know the aliens are making a concerted push and have had no issues with their res income and their team are all skilled fighters. But how often does that ACTUALLY happen?
Practice and theory are different things, things which may offend your theoretical understanding of the game still work in practice.
Are you SURE it is only two bile hits to kill an exo? Last I recall, bile bomb does the full damage on structures, but it doesn't instantly wipe out light marine armor with one bile. I've been biled many times by a gorge while I'm a light marine (and vice versa) and I see much smaller damage numbers pop up, let's say 2dmg a second for one bile bomb for argument's sake. There was a patch where this bile damage was doubled against exosuits, but it definitely isn't doing 70 dmg/second.
Last night I was surprised by a couple of exos while I was patiently waiting to rush into Control (veil) and bile it. I dropped 4 biles on one of the exos - direct hits - but he did not die, and besides the damage numbers popping up on screen were not the same as when a bile hits a structure.
<!--quoteo(post=2065586:date=Jan 23 2013, 12:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 23 2013, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact is, in an actual game, the aliens won't know what you're doing perfectly, they won't be able to organise instantly and ideally to respond optimally to a situation, and they won't be able to deploy a guaranteed successful combat force to achieve any objective they set out to. Neither will the marines. The game is decided by strategic play and tactical combat. In both of those there is a great element of uncertainty as to how any given situation will unfold, and a great absence of information no matter how good your scouting forces are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is just it. EXOs are slow, loud and obvious. The amount of time and leeway the aliens have to respond to an exo rush is huge because it takes them a very long time to get anywhere on the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2065586:date=Jan 23 2013, 05:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 23 2013, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realise that most of your objections to the exo appear to be entirely founded on 'Oh but if the aliens know what you're doing they can do this to counter it perfectly', the response to which is 'well duh?'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Since EXOs are the slowest units in the game, if your alien team doesn't know they are coming then your team is either AFK or not paying attention. Not to mention the khamm should have some drifters out there.
If you don't know EXOs are coming, then your team was going to lose the game anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2065592:date=Jan 23 2013, 06:36 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 23 2013, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@savant Are you SURE it is only two bile hits to kill an exo? Last I recall, bile bomb does the full damage on structures, but it doesn't instantly wipe out light marine armor with one bile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yep.
Right from the Balance.lua file... (X:\Steam\SteamApps\common\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua\) <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode kBileBombEnergyCost = 20 kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->Do the math. Bile does 70 armor damage a second on a <b>direct hit</b>. It also lasts for 5 seconds. That's 350 armor damage. A armor 3 EXO has 580 armor. So you bile him, wait your 5 seconds for the full damage amount to be applied, and then bile again. Buh-bye EXO. I do it all the time. So long as you can land your hits, you're fine. Make sure to wait the 5 seconds. Once you make that direct hit, extra hits don't increase damage. (a mistake I see many gorges making, which leads to their death) Let the bile do the work and then hit him after 5 seconds. You have plenty of time since no marines will be back in 10 seconds at the earliest. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been biled many times by a gorge while I'm a light marine (and vice versa) and I see much smaller damage numbers pop up, let's say 2dmg a second for one bile bomb for argument's sake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Accuracy matters. If you just get some of the splash, you won't be hit for the same amount as a full-on direct hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was a patch where this bile damage was doubled against exosuits, but it definitely isn't doing 70 dmg/second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If it 's not then that's a bug. It's coded to do 70 DPS.
Right from the Balance.lua file... (X:\Steam\SteamApps\common\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua\) <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode kBileBombEnergyCost = 20 kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->Do the math. Bile does 70 armor damage a second on a <b>direct hit</b>. It also lasts for 5 seconds. That's 350 armor damage. A armor 3 EXO has 580 armor. So you bile him, wait your 5 seconds for the full damage amount to be applied, and then bile again. Buh-bye EXO. I do it all the time. So long as you can land your hits, you're fine. Make sure to wait the 5 seconds. Once you make that direct hit, extra hits don't increase damage. (a mistake I see many gorges making, which leads to their death) Let the bile do the work and then hit him after 5 seconds. You have plenty of time since no marines will be back in 10 seconds at the earliest. Accuracy matters. If you just get some of the splash, you won't be hit for the same amount as a full-on direct hit.
If it 's not then that's a bug. It's coded to do 70 DPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure this is wrong. The Corrode damage type only does full damage to buildings.
According to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125099&st=40&start=40" target="_blank">this post</a> Bile Bomb does 20% damage to Exos, or 70 damage over 5 seconds.
None of that addresses anything I said beyond exos being easier to notice than other things the marines use, though I would argue that the main thing you would spot them with (drifters) would spot any major marine push as well, while actual alien scouts would be harder pressed to see the scope of a major push because they get chased off by the vanguard.
The point remains, if you know exactly what the enemy is doing and have a perfectly responsive and competent team, you're going to win regardless, that's the point of the game. If your team has perfect knowledge, perfect combat performance, and perfect group organisation, they are playing the game <i>literally perfectly</i> and you are obviously going to win. The entire game revolves around the enemy team 'playing badly' in that respect.
<!--quoteo(post=2065586:date=Jan 23 2013, 12:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 23 2013, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the aliens decide to concertedly push the marine base, then marines could simply rush jetpacks and sneak a guy into alien territory without touching infestation with one and build a ninja PG and rush through while an exo or two holds the base. That is a perfect strategy assuming marines can actually pull all that off and they know the aliens are making a concerted push and have had no issues with their res income and their team are all skilled fighters. But how often does that ACTUALLY happen?
Practice and theory are different things, things which may offend your theoretical understanding of the game still work in practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem, why are your onos guarding the hive while the 'faster' aliens attack? Because that's what you've just described. Your 75 Res Exo assault platform stays at base. You have acknowledged that Exos are staying at base... because that's what they're good at, instead of pushing out and attacking. While the Jetpackers (considered better than exos on this board) are doing the main push. I know you were making a different point, but I just found that funny...
Also, someone mentioned the issue with imperfect information in the game. The problem with that is the same with surprise Arc trains (but worse as I believe ARCs drive faster). Due to their slow speed, the odds of learning about an Exo-train approaching are considerably higher than learning about any other attack. There is imperfect information in this game but the Exos are the Siege-tanks/thors of NS2, the aliens will know it's coming because the alert-time for an exo is absurdly long.
@Chris0132: True, nothing will be perfectly balanced on both team. However, the question we're asking is should it be harder for marines to win or do things compared to aliens? If the situation was the Dual Exo could not physically solo an Onos because its damage is weak, should we learn to play or should we balance it? A weaker Dual Exo is still the same, it just requires more skill and teamwork to win. But should it be like that?
Zodac is right. Corrode damage does less damage against players. 2 bile bombs are never enough to kill an Exo. And this change came in before release. If you would play the game more often instead of only theory crafting, you would see, that Exos aren't that bad.
But anyway. I have tried my best to convince you. If you think Exos aren't worth it, so be it. It's not that I can't use them and keep succeeding.
<!--quoteo(post=2065691:date=Jan 24 2013, 01:05 AM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 24 2013, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem, why are your onos guarding the hive while the 'faster' aliens attack? Because that's what you've just described. Your 75 Res Exo assault platform stays at base. You have acknowledged that Exos are staying at base... because that's what they're good at, instead of pushing out and attacking. While the Jetpackers (considered better than exos on this board) are doing the main push. I know you were making a different point, but I just found that funny...
Also, someone mentioned the issue with imperfect information in the game. The problem with that is the same with surprise Arc trains (but worse as I believe ARCs drive faster). Due to their slow speed, the odds of learning about an Exo-train approaching are considerably higher than learning about any other attack. There is imperfect information in this game but the Exos are the Siege-tanks/thors of NS2, the aliens will know it's coming because the alert-time for an exo is absurdly long.
@Chris0132: True, nothing will be perfectly balanced on both team. However, the question we're asking is should it be harder for marines to win or do things compared to aliens? If the situation was the Dual Exo could not physically solo an Onos because its damage is weak, should we learn to play or should we balance it? A weaker Dual Exo is still the same, it just requires more skill and teamwork to win. But should it be like that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that works?
Onoses are used to defend hives, exos are used to defend bases, both are also used to attack. Big beefy units are good at doing stuff, and exos can't PG otherwise I'd suggest using them. You could always use the PG/proto lab trick to give your PG guys exos at the other end but I don't think you need to really if you're going for a surprise attack. A PG rush is the marine equivalent of a skulk rush, extra firepower is generally not needed if executed correctly, you are going for speed with that particular tactic, not firepower. The situational effectiveness of skulk rushes does not invalidate the onos, nor does the situational effectiveness of ninja PGs affect the exo's usefulness.
And like I said, the entire marine playstyle is based around not being able to solo aliens. Marines struggle to solo skulks, will find it hard to solo lerks, can't solo fades and will be murdered by onoses. Marines are not solo combatants, that's why they have so many mechanics oriented around working in groups. Complaining that the exo can't solo an onos is very arbitrary given that it is consistent with everything the marines do, and have done since NS1.
It can perhaps be most fundamentally expressed in the ranged vs melee dynamic. A ranged group can focus fire and mutually cover each other, a melee group has to work extra hard to ensure they don't get in each other's way and don't catch stray bullets aimed at each other. Aliens get slightly less effective in groups, marines get significantly more effective in groups. Aliens do benefit from increased numbers but each player is generally slightly less efficient, due to catching the occasional stray bullet and having to work around other aliens. Marines can simply cover each other and the more that survive, the more that can heal up quickly and easily afterwards.
If you make marines able to solo aliens, they become overpowered in groups. Aliens can are more powerful than individual marines to combat the fact that marines get more powerful in groups.
<!--quoteo(post=2065876:date=Jan 24 2013, 09:08 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 24 2013, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Complaining that the exo can't solo an onos is very arbitrary given that it is consistent with everything the marines do, and have done since NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually it's not. NS1 was different since the weapon (the machine gun) wasn't tied to the heavy armor.
In any case, Charlie has said that he doesn't want anything to have a 'hard counter'. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 favors “soft†counters over “hard†counters. The idea of one technology, unit or ability easily defeating another one works better in an RTS than an FPS. It’s also not very interesting. So whenever possible, NS2 aims to have certain abilities be stronger against other abilities, but still allowing for player skill to close the gap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Onos should not be an "I win" card over an EXO. Just as a fade shouldn't be an "I win" card over a shottie marine.
Your premise is flawed since if a single alien is meant to take on a group of marines, then a group of aliens would be unstoppable. All aliens would need to do would be to group up and that's a win. If it takes two marines to kill one alien, then aliens will always 'out power' the marines.
Sorry, no, that's not how the game was designed. Each class should be able to be counter the other based on their skill and weaponry. EXO should be able to take on an Onos. A shottie wielding marine should be able to take on a fade. With skulks a single marine should be able to take on a single skulk, provided that he is not ambushed. Whether or not the marine wins should come down to player skill, not some arbitrary design that suggests because you happen to be alone you forfeit the battle.
this reminds me on the discussion about camo we had right before christmas.... Onr or two guys were 1200% convinced that camo is the most OP thing in the world and there are NO viable strategies against it that do not evolve around the aliens being morons. Anyone who stated something different was beaten to death by endless, self-repeating walls of text....
<!--quoteo(post=2066371:date=Jan 25 2013, 10:38 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 25 2013, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this reminds me on the discussion about camo we had right before christmas.... Onr or two guys were 1200% convinced that camo is the most OP thing in the world and there are NO viable strategies against it that do not evolve around the aliens being morons. Anyone who stated something different was beaten to death by endless, self-repeating walls of text....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, you speak the truth. Part of the trouble is that we're all opinionated. Worse still, many of us don't ever like to concede any points for fear of... I honestly don't know what.
I know I just had two amazing games last night as marine comm where I held off researching exos until the very end in one game (and then only 2 were bought), and didn't in the second. We won both games - they were very close and very tense games, really great fun. In the second one, I managed to amass about 10 arcs right at the very end (when it was clear that we were on top, this is!), and marched them all into onos bar ready for locker rooms. Just as I hit deploy and got the scan lined up, they conceded :( Boo!
Exos can be fun to play, sure, but I really don't see them being too useful in their current guise, unless I can persuade two people to buy them and stay in base to defend - it's just that's really tough to do on a pub server!. Jetpacking marines make better defense for arcs and draw less attention to them (though an exo push at an alternate location is a great way to disctract the enemy!).
I like the idea, I just think they could use a bit of tweaking to make them a more viable option for the res that's splurged on them.
<!--quoteo(post=2026787:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:21 PM:name=WackOh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WackOh @ Nov 17 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well a game i had not too long ago on docking where me and two others got into dual exos, as soon as that happened we lost our 2nd tech point and aliens seemed sure to win with onoses all over the map.
The two exos and some welding marines as backup pushed tram, so naturally aliens rushed terminal for the power node, comm beaconed leaving us two exos. We held off wave after wave of skulks and fades and slowly destroyed structures one a time in tram. We constantly fell back till we got welded, only for marines to be beaconed again, this happened at least three times, eventually the exos took down Tram. We secured it and moved off to generator, same deal with the beaconing and holding off waves and slowly pushing hive. Once generator was down we had the momentum, and aliens just lost all theirs as well as compusure, their res nodes were all taken out by the constant exo push. Then we won, and guess what, it was the exos that won it.
How?
Dont be retarded with your exos and put yourself in a situation where you can get swarmed from all sides ie push for a open hive when the approach itself had little resistance cause guess what, the aliens are probably all waiting to chomp your ass. Know when to fall back, and hold key corridors rather than an entire room where aliens will maneuver around your guns. Dont all shoot at once, coordinate minigun firings so there is never all exos overheating at once. Focus onos, communication is the key.
TL;DR learn to exo, it has its uses<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Had a few experiences like this. The main thing I see is people thinking they and a walking GOD TANKs which kills all it surveys. So they then proceed into rooms with little to no backup and get them selves killed and then fume at someone because, oh no it wasn't their fault they got killed, after all they are BIG SUPER TANKS WITH MINIGUNS so it was the rest of the teams fault. They have then lost the team and them selves a valuble asset which has the potenital be a game winning unit.
Its like you said, effective exos shoot and retreat to weld. They might have only took out some cysts, or 1 skulk but they retreat anyway. Doing this might keep them alive for muinets at a time and the damage an exo can do in that lengh of time, even if it is little by little, is very high and damaging to the aliens. The problem is with people who dont know how to play exo properly yet just go in and expect to kill lots of aliens and structures, get welded and do it all again. When in reality, a good skulk can take down a lone exo.
Comments
It will never happen since you need to have a 95% greater accuracy rate and put all 5 clips into the Onos, WHILE STAYING ALIVE for a half minute. The only way that is happening is if the player is AFK.
So please, no BS about solo Onos being weak. Weak against what? Unless the Onos gets confronted with clearly superior firepower, there is nothing in the game that can threaten the Onos one-on-one, and that includes a dual-mini EXO. (so long as the Onos isn't taken by surprise as he's typing or something, he will be able to kill a solo EXO with ease.)
I ask again, please tell me what a solo Onos is 'weak' against.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
jp shotgun. major deterrent for onos. something you can't hit and can chase you down.
what is it, like 4-5 shots to kill a skulk in an exo?
I don't really remember the exact details, but an onos hits structure for about 200 damage, and it takes a good 6 or 7 hits to take out an exo. I'm thinking it works out to around 1200 or so effective health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos' attack vs exo's is heavy, and thus treats armor as 1:1. Full hp exo (580?) takes 580 damage from an onos to kill.
I take it you don't play that much, I've been killed by a jp+sg as onos and killed an onos with jp+sg many of a time.
Even still, it really depends on how you play it. If you just flee blindly then you're inviting death.
However, the point I was making is that the EXO is not a tank. The EXO is a tinderbox that can be killed in 6, 7 and 8 seconds by the Onos, Skulk and Gorge respectively.
Show me some videos of marines soloing an Onos in that length of time and I'll be happy to redact my remarks.
Even still, it really depends on how you play it. If you just flee blindly then you're inviting death.
However, the point I was making is that the EXO is not a tank. The EXO is a tinderbox that can be killed in 6, 7 and 8 seconds by the Onos, Skulk and Gorge respectively.
Show me some videos of marines soloing an Onos in that length of time and I'll be happy to redact my remarks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always thought of Onos as Starcraft 2 Broodlord. If you let the enemy team get to them and they're not already bleeding and dying on one or maybe two hives, you deserve the loss. So basically, UWE made it so Onos ARE aliens i-win buttons. If they appear on the field you deserve to lose. The exception is the 1 or two people who didn't go higher lifeform while their team was being heavily pressed in the hopes they'd survive long enough.
620, takes 7 hits, 6 if you can get some charge bonus damage, much more if someone is welding (even a mac, onos can't do ###### about macs on an exo).
Unless it's been changed recently, an Exo's full health is 580 armor. Also, Macs are nullified by 1 bilebomb. If there were several macs welding the Exo, then the Exo is no longer just 75 res. Also, Macs weld slower compared to a welder marine who heals slower compared to a single gorge. Savant, do you still have the numbers on heal rates for Macs/Welders/Gorge? I think you posted them in another thread somewhere in the past.
Marines aren't <i>supposed</i> to solo aliens, that's the entire point of marines, exos aren't supposed to completely break the entire marine team dynamic, they're supposed to enhance it, and they do. They suck, as does every marine tech, base, weapon, or ability, if used solo. If used in correct combination, they're very useful. Marines are a collection of things that are useful when put together.
As for EXOs, they suck REGARDLESS of how they are used.
Can they be used, successfully, in the game as it stands currently? Of course!
Hey, right now the game clearly favours the aliens. The DEVELOPERS know this, the players know this. We've been sitting at a solid 60% alien win rate for well over a month now. Yet despite an imbalance that <b>clearly </b>favours aliens, the marines win games. Yes marines can win games, and marines do win games. The problem is that most of those wins are because we have so many new players in the game. It's why when NS2 released the win/loss rate for aliens was 51/49, but a month later it was 66/33. Once people learn how to play, they quickly learn how fragile the marine team really is. It's also easy to overcome the 'threat' the EXO might pose. (since if you play the game right - you don't treat the EXO as a threat, you treat it as a chance to win)
What about the EXO, can it be used to help win a marine team a game? Again, sure it can. The problem with the EXO is that it relies on poor play by the alien team to be effective. In a game with equally skilled teams, the EXO is a liability. It's why in competitive games the marines only win ~33% of games compared to ~40% on public servers. Frankly, I would be surprised if many of those competitive marine wins actually involved the EXO in any meaningful way at all. (I welcome competitive players to fill me in on what tend to be the winning strats for marines of late.)
The EXO isn't really bad, it's just not any good. It does well the things it is NOT supposed to do well, and does poorly the things it is supposed to do well. The EXO is supposed to be an assault vehicle, yet the moment you take it out of base its combat effectiveness drops like a rock.
Again, as I have said before, the EXO is a liability. If you send EXOs out to the front line, any alien team with equal skill to your own can defeat you since with all things equal, it is far too easy to overcome an EXO attack. All one needs to do is a B&B attack (beacon and bile) and all those fancy EXOs are toast. It only takes ONE 10 res gorge to kill as many EXOs as are left behind when the marines are forced to beacon. My record is four, meaning I took out 300 res with one 10 res alien. And lived. And LOLed. And watched as the marines F4'd because of it. And had to switch servers since most of them left the server in disgust.
What bothers me the most about the EXO is not how lousy it is, but that UWE used the EXO in all of its ads, making a show of this big 'mech' taking on the aliens - when in reality those battles end quickly and poorly for any EXO. I have lost count of how many "WTF?" I have seen after a newer player in an EXO was rolled with ease, despite being in the 'ultimate marine weapon'. If anything I think the EXO pisses off more new players than anything, and that's bad for the game.
In the end, if the EXO wasn't as craptastic as it is, would there be a 60% alien win rate? I don't think there would be. While a portion of those marine games are lost early, many are lost later when a team unwittingly sends out a team of EXOs. So long as EXOs can't be left alone for 5 seconds for fear of dying, it means that the foot marines with them (running around with welders out pressing M1 - wow that's some fun gameplay right there!) will be unable to respond to a base attack without a beacon. Once that beacon happens, the game is over. The EXOs are dead, or the base is gone, or both.
That's why the EXOs are nothing more than a liability to a skilled marine team.
The problem begins, where you need to beacon. You exaggerate. The EXO can work very good as assault, when you not forget to defend your base. You need less than 2 Exos and 2 Jetpack+welder. To make a successful push on a hive. The rest of the team can defend. Or if you have a good team, that knows how tactical positioning works, you can even attack another hive at the same time, while cutting any alien that even tries to move in the direction of the marine bases.
What you describe sounds the same like, when the whole team buys GLs and tries a hive rush with this. And than they are wondering that it doesn't work.
I don't even have a problem when I'm alone in an exo for a short time. 2 aliens up to fades are no problem. You may want to try to position yourself a bit better. The exo is a strong unit, but because of obvious reasons it isn't unbeatable. You can die as onos too if you don't know how to play with it.
Furthermore, let's say you have your 3 players sitting in base waiting for that attack. Just how are you going to defend against a couple Onos and a lerk hitting your base? Your three mobile marines are no match for them alone, you have to beacon. In no situation will 3 marines be a sufficient deterrent against anything but a skulk solo rush.
The inherent problem with EXOs is that it forces marines to<b> SPLIT THEIR FORCES</b>. Any time they do that it ends badly for marines. That's why EXOs are so bad for marines, since they weaken the team by the very nature of their slow movement and inability to beacon. Once they leave base, the aliens only need to wait until they know the EXOs are far enough away from marine spawn to attack. Once they do they can either win the game, or cripple the marines, while the EXOs lumber around the map nowhere near a hive. They become a tasty metal treat for the gorges later when the other marines are trying to regroup at their second base.
Again: If the marines are good, they don't need to stay in base and defend. They attack another alien location on ways that cut aliens the path to the marine base. The attacking Exos use paths that don't allow an onos to sneak up on the marine base. Its all intel and positioning.
Exos don't force marines to split up. They allow marines to split up. Because of the greater firepower and survivability. You don't need a whole team of exos to rush a hive.
like I said 20 times before there is a good measure for how many Exos a marine team should have. It should not be 50 nor 40%, more like 20 or max 30%.
Also it's heavily dependend on the team size. A Team of 12 with 3 Exos will stop any 3 onos push on power node as good as without exos but the attack in which the Exos participate will get 5x stronger simply because of DPS.
You go on making more and more elaborate reasons why exos are bad but you keep on denying the fact that they can ramp up and sustain DPS of a both much higher magnitude AND longer period than any light marine setup can ever do.
What you do really is just like saying "boo boo GL soo bad... if whole team gets one they all get eaten by one skulk booo booo" OF course a team of 8 with 7 gl marines sucks hard. The same team with 1 GL however will be considerably stronger in more than 90% of all situations than the same team without any GL.
Same for Exos!
The dual EXO really is one of the very few things that UWE actually did manage to balance more or less correctly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->The EXO isn't really bad, it's just not any good. It does well the things it is NOT supposed to do well, and does poorly the things it is supposed to do well. The EXO is supposed to be an assault vehicle, yet the moment you take it out of base its combat effectiveness drops like a rock.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not saying marines can never succeed with an EXO push. I've done it many times. However, every time I've done it the aliens haven't been skilled enough to properly counter it. Against an equally skilled alien team I can count on one hand the number of games I have been in where an EXO push actually won us the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In nearly no case have the aliens the time to get all together (8) against the 4 pushing marines. They are always split up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If your hive is being attacked, and you're out chomping on an extractor, then you are playing the game wrong. When marines are making an assault on your hive you should be in one of two places - in the hive, or at a marine tech point. That's it. If at a marine tech point you'll be able to cut the 4 marines down to 2 once the others are forced to beacon. At that point your 5 aliens can make quick work of the two pathetic EXOs getting biled to death.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can even force this by having the other group of marines attacking on another front line. You only have to make sure, that the com knows where the aliens are. And that the players cut the ways to the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not possible. The game is designed so that it is IMPOSSIBLE to block off all methods of travel to any given area. That's why they have vents. That's why they can fly/blink. Only the gorge and Onos would potentially have trouble passing a blockade, and even then only if they didn't pick an alternate path.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if some aliens slip through, the com knows long before and can order the exos into a safe distance from the hive, so they can defend them selfs for the time that the marines need after abeacon to come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guarantee that I can kill any group of EXOs before marines return if I am a gorge when the marines beacon. NO chance and NO hope for them. Period. There are very few places on ANY map where marines could camp and cover all possible methods of attack. Even that really long hallway on the east side to Cargo on the Veil map is easy. Send one Gorge in from each end, when they fire in one direction you come in from the other. You're guaranteed to get ONE bile bomb in, even if you die in the process. Wait five seconds and send the second gorge in. Again, you are guaranteed to get one bile hit before dying. All it takes is TWO bile hits and the EXOs are dead. No marine group can get back in under 10 seconds. No gorges? Send in a couple Onos. You'll lose one Onos, but you'll kill both EXOs.
Beacon is an alien 'I win' button for balanced teams. Every time. The only time it isn't is against a team that significantly outskill.
Of course if the aliens know exactly what you're doing, can coordinate a completely appropriate response rapidly, deploy it effectively, and overall be entirely better than the marine team, they will win. And yes, it is extremely easy for you, as one person, to say 'Oh well if the marines are doing this this and this then I would do that that and that and that would win me the game, your silly marine tactics are bad, marines suck gg'. However if it was as easy to put into practice as it was to theorycraft, what would be the point in actually playing?
The fact is, in an actual game, the aliens won't know what you're doing perfectly, they won't be able to organise instantly and ideally to respond optimally to a situation, and they won't be able to deploy a guaranteed successful combat force to achieve any objective they set out to. Neither will the marines. The game is decided by strategic play and tactical combat. In both of those there is a great element of uncertainty as to how any given situation will unfold, and a great absence of information no matter how good your scouting forces are.
If the aliens decide to concertedly push the marine base, then marines could simply rush jetpacks and sneak a guy into alien territory without touching infestation with one and build a ninja PG and rush through while an exo or two holds the base. That is a perfect strategy assuming marines can actually pull all that off and they know the aliens are making a concerted push and have had no issues with their res income and their team are all skilled fighters. But how often does that ACTUALLY happen?
Practice and theory are different things, things which may offend your theoretical understanding of the game still work in practice.
Are you SURE it is only two bile hits to kill an exo? Last I recall, bile bomb does the full damage on structures, but it doesn't instantly wipe out light marine armor with one bile. I've been biled many times by a gorge while I'm a light marine (and vice versa) and I see much smaller damage numbers pop up, let's say 2dmg a second for one bile bomb for argument's sake. There was a patch where this bile damage was doubled against exosuits, but it definitely isn't doing 70 dmg/second.
Last night I was surprised by a couple of exos while I was patiently waiting to rush into Control (veil) and bile it. I dropped 4 biles on one of the exos - direct hits - but he did not die, and besides the damage numbers popping up on screen were not the same as when a bile hits a structure.
that is just it. EXOs are slow, loud and obvious. The amount of time and leeway the aliens have to respond to an exo rush is huge because it takes them a very long time to get anywhere on the map.
If you don't know EXOs are coming, then your team was going to lose the game anyway.
Right from the Balance.lua file... (X:\Steam\SteamApps\common\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua\)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second
kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode
kBileBombEnergyCost = 20
kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->Do the math. Bile does 70 armor damage a second on a <b>direct hit</b>. It also lasts for 5 seconds. That's 350 armor damage. A armor 3 EXO has 580 armor. So you bile him, wait your 5 seconds for the full damage amount to be applied, and then bile again. Buh-bye EXO. I do it all the time. So long as you can land your hits, you're fine. Make sure to wait the 5 seconds. Once you make that direct hit, extra hits don't increase damage. (a mistake I see many gorges making, which leads to their death) Let the bile do the work and then hit him after 5 seconds. You have plenty of time since no marines will be back in 10 seconds at the earliest.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been biled many times by a gorge while I'm a light marine (and vice versa) and I see much smaller damage numbers pop up, let's say 2dmg a second for one bile bomb for argument's sake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Accuracy matters. If you just get some of the splash, you won't be hit for the same amount as a full-on direct hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was a patch where this bile damage was doubled against exosuits, but it definitely isn't doing 70 dmg/second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If it 's not then that's a bug. It's coded to do 70 DPS.
Right from the Balance.lua file... (X:\Steam\SteamApps\common\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua\)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second
kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode
kBileBombEnergyCost = 20
kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->Do the math. Bile does 70 armor damage a second on a <b>direct hit</b>. It also lasts for 5 seconds. That's 350 armor damage. A armor 3 EXO has 580 armor. So you bile him, wait your 5 seconds for the full damage amount to be applied, and then bile again. Buh-bye EXO. I do it all the time. So long as you can land your hits, you're fine. Make sure to wait the 5 seconds. Once you make that direct hit, extra hits don't increase damage. (a mistake I see many gorges making, which leads to their death) Let the bile do the work and then hit him after 5 seconds. You have plenty of time since no marines will be back in 10 seconds at the earliest.
Accuracy matters. If you just get some of the splash, you won't be hit for the same amount as a full-on direct hit.
If it 's not then that's a bug. It's coded to do 70 DPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure this is wrong. The Corrode damage type only does full damage to buildings.
According to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125099&st=40&start=40" target="_blank">this post</a> Bile Bomb does 20% damage to Exos, or 70 damage over 5 seconds.
The point remains, if you know exactly what the enemy is doing and have a perfectly responsive and competent team, you're going to win regardless, that's the point of the game. If your team has perfect knowledge, perfect combat performance, and perfect group organisation, they are playing the game <i>literally perfectly</i> and you are obviously going to win. The entire game revolves around the enemy team 'playing badly' in that respect.
Practice and theory are different things, things which may offend your theoretical understanding of the game still work in practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem, why are your onos guarding the hive while the 'faster' aliens attack? Because that's what you've just described. Your 75 Res Exo assault platform stays at base. You have acknowledged that Exos are staying at base... because that's what they're good at, instead of pushing out and attacking. While the Jetpackers (considered better than exos on this board) are doing the main push. I know you were making a different point, but I just found that funny...
Also, someone mentioned the issue with imperfect information in the game. The problem with that is the same with surprise Arc trains (but worse as I believe ARCs drive faster). Due to their slow speed, the odds of learning about an Exo-train approaching are considerably higher than learning about any other attack. There is imperfect information in this game but the Exos are the Siege-tanks/thors of NS2, the aliens will know it's coming because the alert-time for an exo is absurdly long.
@Chris0132: True, nothing will be perfectly balanced on both team. However, the question we're asking is should it be harder for marines to win or do things compared to aliens? If the situation was the Dual Exo could not physically solo an Onos because its damage is weak, should we learn to play or should we balance it? A weaker Dual Exo is still the same, it just requires more skill and teamwork to win. But should it be like that?
Why?
Why the #$@% not?
But anyway. I have tried my best to convince you. If you think Exos aren't worth it, so be it. It's not that I can't use them and keep succeeding.
Also, someone mentioned the issue with imperfect information in the game. The problem with that is the same with surprise Arc trains (but worse as I believe ARCs drive faster). Due to their slow speed, the odds of learning about an Exo-train approaching are considerably higher than learning about any other attack. There is imperfect information in this game but the Exos are the Siege-tanks/thors of NS2, the aliens will know it's coming because the alert-time for an exo is absurdly long.
@Chris0132: True, nothing will be perfectly balanced on both team. However, the question we're asking is should it be harder for marines to win or do things compared to aliens? If the situation was the Dual Exo could not physically solo an Onos because its damage is weak, should we learn to play or should we balance it? A weaker Dual Exo is still the same, it just requires more skill and teamwork to win. But should it be like that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that works?
Onoses are used to defend hives, exos are used to defend bases, both are also used to attack. Big beefy units are good at doing stuff, and exos can't PG otherwise I'd suggest using them. You could always use the PG/proto lab trick to give your PG guys exos at the other end but I don't think you need to really if you're going for a surprise attack. A PG rush is the marine equivalent of a skulk rush, extra firepower is generally not needed if executed correctly, you are going for speed with that particular tactic, not firepower. The situational effectiveness of skulk rushes does not invalidate the onos, nor does the situational effectiveness of ninja PGs affect the exo's usefulness.
And like I said, the entire marine playstyle is based around not being able to solo aliens. Marines struggle to solo skulks, will find it hard to solo lerks, can't solo fades and will be murdered by onoses. Marines are not solo combatants, that's why they have so many mechanics oriented around working in groups. Complaining that the exo can't solo an onos is very arbitrary given that it is consistent with everything the marines do, and have done since NS1.
It can perhaps be most fundamentally expressed in the ranged vs melee dynamic. A ranged group can focus fire and mutually cover each other, a melee group has to work extra hard to ensure they don't get in each other's way and don't catch stray bullets aimed at each other. Aliens get slightly less effective in groups, marines get significantly more effective in groups. Aliens do benefit from increased numbers but each player is generally slightly less efficient, due to catching the occasional stray bullet and having to work around other aliens. Marines can simply cover each other and the more that survive, the more that can heal up quickly and easily afterwards.
If you make marines able to solo aliens, they become overpowered in groups. Aliens can are more powerful than individual marines to combat the fact that marines get more powerful in groups.
In any case, Charlie has said that he doesn't want anything to have a 'hard counter'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 favors “soft†counters over “hard†counters. The idea of one technology, unit or ability easily defeating another one works better in an RTS than an FPS. It’s also not very interesting. So whenever possible, NS2 aims to have certain abilities be stronger against other abilities, but still allowing for player skill to close the gap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Onos should not be an "I win" card over an EXO. Just as a fade shouldn't be an "I win" card over a shottie marine.
Your premise is flawed since if a single alien is meant to take on a group of marines, then a group of aliens would be unstoppable. All aliens would need to do would be to group up and that's a win. If it takes two marines to kill one alien, then aliens will always 'out power' the marines.
Sorry, no, that's not how the game was designed. Each class should be able to be counter the other based on their skill and weaponry. EXO should be able to take on an Onos. A shottie wielding marine should be able to take on a fade. With skulks a single marine should be able to take on a single skulk, provided that he is not ambushed. Whether or not the marine wins should come down to player skill, not some arbitrary design that suggests because you happen to be alone you forfeit the battle.
Anyone who stated something different was beaten to death by endless, self-repeating walls of text....
Anyone who stated something different was beaten to death by endless, self-repeating walls of text....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, you speak the truth. Part of the trouble is that we're all opinionated. Worse still, many of us don't ever like to concede any points for fear of... I honestly don't know what.
I know I just had two amazing games last night as marine comm where I held off researching exos until the very end in one game (and then only 2 were bought), and didn't in the second. We won both games - they were very close and very tense games, really great fun. In the second one, I managed to amass about 10 arcs right at the very end (when it was clear that we were on top, this is!), and marched them all into onos bar ready for locker rooms. Just as I hit deploy and got the scan lined up, they conceded :( Boo!
Exos can be fun to play, sure, but I really don't see them being too useful in their current guise, unless I can persuade two people to buy them and stay in base to defend - it's just that's really tough to do on a pub server!. Jetpacking marines make better defense for arcs and draw less attention to them (though an exo push at an alternate location is a great way to disctract the enemy!).
I like the idea, I just think they could use a bit of tweaking to make them a more viable option for the res that's splurged on them.
The two exos and some welding marines as backup pushed tram, so naturally aliens rushed terminal for the power node, comm beaconed leaving us two exos. We held off wave after wave of skulks and fades and slowly destroyed structures one a time in tram. We constantly fell back till we got welded, only for marines to be beaconed again, this happened at least three times, eventually the exos took down Tram. We secured it and moved off to generator, same deal with the beaconing and holding off waves and slowly pushing hive. Once generator was down we had the momentum, and aliens just lost all theirs as well as compusure, their res nodes were all taken out by the constant exo push. Then we won, and guess what, it was the exos that won it.
How?
Dont be retarded with your exos and put yourself in a situation where you can get swarmed from all sides ie push for a open hive when the approach itself had little resistance cause guess what, the aliens are probably all waiting to chomp your ass.
Know when to fall back, and hold key corridors rather than an entire room where aliens will maneuver around your guns.
Dont all shoot at once, coordinate minigun firings so there is never all exos overheating at once.
Focus onos, communication is the key.
TL;DR learn to exo, it has its uses<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Had a few experiences like this. The main thing I see is people thinking they and a walking GOD TANKs which kills all it surveys. So they then proceed into rooms with little to no backup and get them selves killed and then fume at someone because, oh no it wasn't their fault they got killed, after all they are BIG SUPER TANKS WITH MINIGUNS so it was the rest of the teams fault. They have then lost the team and them selves a valuble asset which has the potenital be a game winning unit.
Its like you said, effective exos shoot and retreat to weld. They might have only took out some cysts, or 1 skulk but they retreat anyway. Doing this might keep them alive for muinets at a time and the damage an exo can do in that lengh of time, even if it is little by little, is very high and damaging to the aliens. The problem is with people who dont know how to play exo properly yet just go in and expect to kill lots of aliens and structures, get welded and do it all again. When in reality, a good skulk can take down a lone exo.