<!--quoteo(post=2028594:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:19 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 19 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good player can deal with this without too much troubleSorry charlie, just not true. I had a game tonight where I rolled in with my SOLO Onos, and took on two EXOs. The dual mini EXO had never had a chance to get guns spun up since it's all tight spaces. I killed him, despite him unloading both guns. He was dead before he could reload. Then I finished off the other EXO, which was a single mini. Oh and an LMG marine that came in to try and help. I'm no pro either. I'm an 'average' player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->the one game you had is evidence of absolutely nothing, and does absolutely zero to midigate my point of "A good player". I really don't care that you killed a half AFK dual exo as an onos in a game. A good player would be better about not getting into that position, about working together with the other exo, about knowing how far he/she can safely push forward. Spin up is a disadvantage that can be exploited, but it's also a factor that can be midigated as well. It's possible to prespin your barrels, it's possible to time out cool downs, most exo's don't even do those 2 basic things, let alone actually being in an intellegent position when the combat is started. Simply put, you didn't fight "good" exos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, these units cost res. Secondly, they are killed with 2 bile bombs. I had a game yesterday where the comm had 5 on an EXO, they lasted all of 10 seconds once the bile started flowing. Why spend res on something that will die so quickly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Both a gorge and a welder also cost res, as does a craig upgrade. They live a good 10 seconds after being bilebombed as well, and can weld eachother to last 3 biles. A good commander can micro macs out of the way of bile, but honestly, they're so cheap it's hardly the end of the world if you lose a few. They cost 5 res. 1 exo fist suit costs 10 macs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You talk nanoshield, but that costs res too, just like the macs. Heck even the marines that heal the EXOs have to BUY a welder out of their personal res, and the welder has to be researched first. It all costs resources, and yet aliens get it all for free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So do lerks, umbra upgrade research, and the third hive. And umbra can't be dropped anywhere on the map instantly. It requires a lerk flying in the area. Gorges cost res as well. Granted they get healspray for free after that, but they're 10 res more expensive than a welder, and a marine with a welder will beat a gorge 1 v 1 every time. Gorges underpowered? No, that's just the way the game works. Craig upgrades are free after they're researched, but they're a lot more expensive than welder tech to get in the first place, especially if you need to get a second hive before getting them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, but those advantages should balance out in the big scheme of things. Right now there is a clear imbalance with EXOs. I can't believe the devs will leave them this way. Heh, I killed two as a skulk a few days ago. Just waited until they passed by and came from behind. Zero res alien takes out 150 res. You can try and say that they were inexperienced players, but could a LMG marine *EVER* solo two Onos, even if they were being played by new players? Of course not. He'd run out of ammo before he killed one of them.
The EXOs need work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you. The point I'm making is that if you just list the things that are a disadvantage for exo's and don't look at the advantages they DO have you get the impression they are absolute garbage and should never be purchased. They have their issues, but they have their advantages as well. Honestly, it's weird to even try to compare exo's with onos, they are totally different things, they should be used in different ways at different times to accomplish different goals. There is no 1 to 1 comparison. It's ignorant to even try to frame things so simply. The only thing they have in common is that they are both the top of the tech tree as far as a player is concerned. But NOTHING else in the tech tree's of the two races in NS are 1 to 1 matches, why should this be?
It's obvious from reading this forum and playing marines exclusively for couple of days that marines need desperately some love. Last weekend I remember winning maybe one or two games as marine and atleast on one of the games the biggest reason for not loosing was probably that the aliens didn't have a com for first few minutes of game. The imbalance started to feel so frustrating and obvious that I'm starting to be hesitant to play the game before something is done.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2028646:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:24 AM:name=Zenu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zenu @ Nov 19 2012, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious from reading this forum and playing marines exclusively for couple of days that marines need desperately some love. Last weekend I remember winning maybe one or two games as marine and atleast on one of the games the biggest reason for not loosing was probably that the aliens didn't have a com for first few minutes of game. The imbalance started to feel so frustrating and obvious that I'm starting to be hesitant to play the game before something is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... last ENSL finals: 7 games, 6 marine wins. High skill marines > high skill aliens (if you can aim as a marine, aliens just can't do much).
Now, pub games are more like a crapshot - you have two high-random values in the form of the commander skills; find a commander that talks and COMMAND, and you will find yourself winning unless the tactical skill levels between the two teams are just too different...
What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.
For a game as well visually designed as NS2, one of the things that's become apparent to me in the last few days is that there's a few critical exceptions to this good design. The one that applies here is the Exosuit. It's large and imposing in almost every sense of the word, yet it's apparently universally derided as grossly wasteful for the commander and individual both to go for. I can tell you from recent, first hand experience that there is absolutely no way a new player can discern that the Exo isn't supposed to go toe to toe with an Onos, because everything they've learned up to that point will tell them that they should at least be able to hold their own, if not win in some circumstances.
The only real issue right now is that Jetpacks are too damn cheap to buy (needs to be at least 20), though it's somewhat of a necessity for them to be cheap right now due to early Onos. There's literally no reason to ever have Exos, except for bad Marines that insist on them because they're incompetent.
<!--quoteo(post=2026778:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:09 AM:name=Norton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Norton @ Nov 17 2012, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I cannot imagine a single situation where I would rather have an Exosuit than a jetpack. The only thing Exos do is trick new players and commanders into wasting resources on them. Honestly they are worse than having nothing at all. Quick rundown on their problems.
1. Slow 2. Expensive 3. Can't heal at armory 4. Can't build 5. Can't weld 6. Not better than jetpack vs any alien.
and here is the big one
7. Cannot be beaconed or use phasegate
I am having a hard time understanding the exosuit's role and what sort of strategies you would want to use it for. Without fail every time I see my team do an exo push on a hive, our main base immediately gets reamed by double onos and a fade, and suddenly our main is gone. Even a skulk rush proves really hard to stop because you can only beacon the members of your team that are not in exos. Suddenly your exos are left all alone and vulnerable and you don't even have a proper force to hold your main with.
Not only are they bad in nearly every way, they are huge and block line of sight for all the marines. They are such an easy target for all the aliens to just focus on immediately. They obviously cannot be super strong death machines or that would be imbalanced and unfun for aliens, but as they are now they are just a liability and a newb trap. I really miss heavy armor.
I guess the easiest fix I can think of is just make them smaller and able to do all the stuff normal marines can do. I don't see why they have to be so slow, this is the future and its the ultimate marine purchase. Onos definitely isn't slow. Also, slow things with no movement options don't require skill and are boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly, its so irritating that most coms ALWAYS research exo and even then even MORE frustrating they go DUAL FIRST before JP?! LOL JP are cheaper and better in almost every way. and even then most of the time the team cant even afford the exos that are researched! lol.
<!--quoteo(post=2028788:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:08 AM:name=sedek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sedek @ Nov 20 2012, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For a game as well visually designed as NS2, one of the things that's become apparent to me in the last few days is that there's a few critical exceptions to this good design. The one that applies here is the Exosuit. It's large and imposing in almost every sense of the word, yet it's apparently universally derided as grossly wasteful for the commander and individual both to go for. I can tell you from recent, first hand experience that there is absolutely no way a new player can discern that the Exo isn't supposed to go toe to toe with an Onos, because everything they've learned up to that point will tell them that they should at least be able to hold their own, if not win in some circumstances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be honest, this is a design issue that keeps coming back to bite us. I love these devs and the work they do, but I feel their Achilles heel has to be the sheer number of times that we end up with "rookie-bait" features that sound awesome and fail horribly. In NS1 we had non-DC first hives, sentry guns, electrified res nodes. In NS2 we have sentry guns, robotics factories and exosuits.
Sometimes I think they need to be a little bit more brutal with their own game. Game features need to be either good or gone. Sentry guns and hydras are an excellent example of this. They either need to be worth spending resources on, or they need to be cut from the game entirely. Anything else is just going to be frustrating and confusing to a new a player.
Personally, I'm starting to think this game is perfectly fine without sentries, and possibly without hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=2028759:date=Nov 19 2012, 07:25 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Nov 19 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm... last ENSL finals: 7 games, 6 marine wins. High skill marines > high skill aliens (if you can aim as a marine, aliens just can't do much).
Now, pub games are more like a crapshot - you have two high-random values in the form of the commander skills; find a commander that talks and COMMAND, and you will find yourself winning unless the tactical skill levels between the two teams are just too different...
What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really balance around people who have near-aimbot levels of aim, because that would ruin the game at all levels except comp.
<!--quoteo(post=2028451:date=Nov 18 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 18 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's be honest here, as the 'top tier' player based unit, the EXO is outmanned and outgunned by the Onos in every way. The EXO is very easily bile spammed by gorge/lerk. The marine equivalent (grenade launcher) does very little indirect damage to the Onos, and has a slower overall firing rate when reload is taken into account. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->gorges, yes, lerk is basically useless against exo until they have umbra <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Lerks have spore which also ruins all marine vision in the area, just thought i would point that out.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->A good player can deal with this without too much trouble<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Put quite simply, you are telling us to l2p, why dont you instead tell us the techniques for dealing with this situation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The EXO travel speed is a half that of the Onos. Since an EXO can't use a phase gate, an Onos can hit the marine base in roughly 50% of the time it takes an EXO to go from base to the hive. (and the Onos can get there faster using charge) The EXO lacks an 'escape' mechanism like the Onos. While the Onos has 'charge', the EXO has a weak jetpack lift that is useless in most areas since they are enclosed. The EXO is healed at a slower rate than an Onos. The welder repairs at 30/sec, while the Gorge can heal an Onos for 47/sec. That's roughly 50% faster. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff to exos because they're cheap, effective, distracting, and require no player intervention<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Yea, I like macs, but 2 bile bombs and they are dead, plus, you mention distracting, which they are often more so distracting to the marine players than the aliens. Also they can't run away from engagements like the pesky gorge ;)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The EXO has no equivalent defensive boost as the Onos does with Umbra. An Onos in Umbra has his effective health pool doubled, making him nearly impossible to kill without being heavily outgunned. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Nanoshield, umbra is hive 3, marines have nanoshield immediately, Exos have a better version of umbra earlier in the game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Oh Alas, if only you actually played the same game I was playing. Nanoshield actually requires 2 CCs and heres the kicker, it doesnt work on Exos. Also... 50% less damage on one unit (non-exo) or a whole group of units (including onos). Look at the comparison there and tell me that Nanoshield is better than Umbra. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The EXO is indirectly vulnerable from stomp, since it will disable the marine welders and prevent marine grenade attacks on gorges. The marines have no way to counter this. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Stomp doesn't work on Macs, it's also hive 3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->It's also kind of irrelevant when Bile Bomb is a 20 resource upgrade from a 10 resource gorge on hive 2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The single mini-gun EXO can't be upgraded, regardless of whether the player has the necessary resources to cover the difference in cost. An EXO (dual mini) cannot be drooped by the Marine commander, yet an Onos egg can be dropped by the Alien commander. The EXO cannot repair at an armory, despite basic marine armor being repairable at the armory. They have to be repaired manually. Meanwhile the Onos can heal quickly at a hive.
That's just off the top of my head. Some other EXO eaknesses unrelated to the Onos... Since the EXO is armor only, the Marine commander loses his one tool to support players. (dropping medpacks) <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->comm can still drop nanoshields on exo<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Again, please try playing the marine commander and get back to me<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The EXO cannot assist in building or repairing structures, even if the player has a welder equipped. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->neither can onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->This actually doesnt even matter because marines need to build structures, while the alien commander builds all of their buildings, hence an onos doesnt NEED to build. (Granted macs can build, but they are dumb and slow at it)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> So yeah, the EXO is gimped. Sure you can get a group of them together and make use of them, but they are much harder to use and maintain than a similar group of Onos. You've also forgotten that if you have bought gear before you get into the Exo suit, your gear disappears.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but I think it was a bit disingenuous claiming that exo's have all these disadvantages that onos don't have to deal with, when many of those advantages exo's DO have their own version of, as well as other support buffs that onos don't have (like flamethrowers).
Exo's also have the advantage of only requiring 2 tech points to be fully upgraded, where onos require 3. However, exo are objectively more expensive for the comm to field, and fixed to a later stage of the game. (considering T-res drops anyways)
in the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other... it's more about what actually happens in the real game than theorycrafting "well, maybe there are X amount of exos here and Y amount of onos there, then aliens have an advantage"
You've also forgotten that if you have bought gear before you get into the Exo suit, your gear disappears.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but I think it was a bit disingenuous claiming that exo's have all these disadvantages that onos don't have to deal with, when many of those advantages exo's DO have their own version of, as well as other support buffs that onos don't have (like flamethrowers).
Exo's also have the advantage of only requiring 2 tech points to be fully upgraded, where onos require 3. However, exo are objectively more expensive for the comm to field, and fixed to a later stage of the game. (considering T-res drops anyways)
in the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other... it's more about what actually happens in the real game than theorycrafting "well, maybe there are X amount of exos here and Y amount of onos there, then aliens have an advantage"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the end of the next day, we realize that there is pretty much no scenario wheres a dual mini exo has an advantage over a jetpack, and based on the 20 last games I have played as marine, we have been smashed time and time again everytime we get into exos, and only win the games where we are just extremely annoying with jetpacks.
Trust me, I play aliens just as much as I play marines. Honest to god I have not lost an alien game in about 30 games. While my marine w/l ratio is about 25% or less.
Some times it's just nice to grab an exo and take it easy. I find jp/SG to be a high stress high reward combo where I'm always on the edge of my seat reacting. Exo on the other hand, well I can't do much but shoot and straif as long as I don't do anything stupid I can obliterate and deter in a way jp's cant.
Everyone hesitates to run into a room with 1 exo let alone 2 while a onos can take an exo down, it's the riskiest move that onos is going to make.
<!--quoteo(post=2028928:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:20 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 19 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, this is a design issue that keeps coming back to bite us. I love these devs and the work they do, but I feel their Achilles heel has to be the sheer number of times that we end up with "rookie-bait" features that sound awesome and fail horribly. In NS1 we had non-DC first hives, sentry guns, electrified res nodes. In NS2 we have sentry guns, robotics factories and exosuits.
Sometimes I think they need to be a little bit more brutal with their own game. Game features need to be either good or gone. Sentry guns and hydras are an excellent example of this. They either need to be worth spending resources on, or they need to be cut from the game entirely. Anything else is just going to be frustrating and confusing to a new a player.
Personally, I'm starting to think this game is perfectly fine without sentries, and possibly without hydras.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. You say DC-first hive is the only way to go. I see you haven't played NS1 for the last 5 years or so? When upgrades became free, DC got replaced with MC as the standard. I still loved the DC first occasionally, but it wasn't used very often.
2. I love turrets in NS2. They have amazing balance! They serve their role perfectly: decent enough against low or medium skilled player, can be fairly easily killed by a skilled player, but are way more effective with marine support. They're cheap, but always have a blind spot. Giving marines a stronger static defense that can manage better on its own would have to be balanced by a much higher cost. If you think the current ones aren't worth 20 res, try a less 'throw it out' approach, e.g. making the Battery cost 15 res and the turrets are free.
3. Hydras are the same thing, that maybe they can use some balance love but we shouldn't just throw them out. Why not make them cost only 2 res? That's still 6 res on top of the 10 for a gorge. Or raise their damage, rate of fire, health, maturity bonus, or give them a bonus ability like the Sense Players that I saw on the wiki but can't seem to see in-game. I imagine that was cut, but the idea, at least the implementation I saw in my head, was great.
These 'rookie bait' features are simply *cool*, and add to the diversity and depth. If they are out of balance, that can be fixed. But start chopping away at all the little things that can bring together the big experience, and you can really lose the feeling of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2028759:date=Nov 19 2012, 07:25 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Nov 19 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely this 100% ^
As with most RTS, often the game is more or less decided in the first 5 minutes of the game. If 3 of those minutes are spent without a commander, or with teams in 3v3 mode, the rest of the game often isn't worth playing, because even if you have an awesome team the other team has economically won one way or another.
3v3 or less is INCREDIBLY unbalanced and heavily favors aliens due to their ability to attack while their RTs build themselves.
I don't know what the solution is, don't start the game until at least 5v5 or 6v6 is reached? That would kill a lot of servers though, and make servers very hard to start. It's definitely an annoying problem right now though.
An intermediate solution would be some kind of warm-up... like 30-45 seconds of warm-up before the game actually starts, so people can leave/join/go grab a drink/go to the restroom/whatever between rounds, and don't start until at least 3v3 with coms in the chairs maybe?
What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 this is a must!
<!--quoteo(post=2030724:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:59 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Nov 20 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 this is a must!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not going to happen. They already commented on it and said it would nullify strategies that utilize having no commander at the beginning of the game. A valid strategy is to rush with everyone at first and have someone hop into command later. It is more prevalent on the alien side but is still a valid tactic for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2030718:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:58 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Nov 20 2012, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i've said it before and i'll say again. exo's weakness needs to be limited ammo, not health or overheating(or at least not as badly).
there is nothing more boring in a game that welding an exo for 5 minutes + (also known as having a white dot burnt into your screen and eyes)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then what's a dual exo to do when it runs out of ammo? If the commander's not paying attention you're SOL. I'd rather deal with overheating than run out of ammo mid-push or right as an Onos charges at us. There's also a morale factor if that big noisy exosuit the team is gathered around suddenly goes *click-click-click*.
Regardless, I'm also in agreement that jetpack is just too useful compared to the exo. I played against a team that went full jetpack and there was nothing the aliens could do to counter. The mobility, the dodging, the map presence: jetpacks plus phase gates give marines the advantage of speed, something that's usually the domain of the alien team.
Plus, being even slightly mid-air makes you immune to stomp. Keep that in mind next time you're in a jetpack facing an Onos. It could save your life!
<!--quoteo(post=2029449:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:59 PM:name=VaSSiLiZaytsev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VaSSiLiZaytsev @ Nov 19 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the end of the next day, we realize that there is pretty much no scenario wheres a dual mini exo has an advantage over a jetpack, and based on the 20 last games I have played as marine, we have been smashed time and time again everytime we get into exos, and only win the games where we are just extremely annoying with jetpacks.
Trust me, I play aliens just as much as I play marines. Honest to god I have not lost an alien game in about 30 games. While my marine w/l ratio is about 25% or less.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The recent changes to regen have made onos easier to pin back into the hive with an Exo... None the less, I agree with your point on jetpacks generally speaking.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=2030922:date=Nov 21 2012, 03:56 PM:name=Minorou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Minorou @ Nov 21 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then what's a dual exo to do when it runs out of ammo? If the commander's not paying attention you're SOL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ask for ammo before you start running out - if comm can see marine health, then he could see exo ammo counters. I guess if comm isn't paying attention then you are SOL regardless of the situation.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=2030879:date=Nov 21 2012, 02:57 PM:name=Marty123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marty123 @ Nov 21 2012, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not going to happen. They already commented on it and said it would nullify strategies that utilize having no commander at the beginning of the game. A valid strategy is to rush with everyone at first and have someone hop into command later. It is more prevalent on the alien side but is still a valid tactic for both teams.
P.S. - Your avatar made me smile and I love it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol - i have yet to see a decent gorge rush in ns2 :)
I guess you can always get in the chair to kick off the round, and then jump back out if you want a non-commander tactic.
it just seems like a good idea to have some kind of ready button/trigger, even its not the command chair.
<!--quoteo(post=2030946:date=Nov 21 2012, 04:35 PM:name=Snæbjørn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snæbjørn @ Nov 21 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I noticed the other day that you cannot nano an exo. Why? Seems like the thing to do where skulks is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that would be very op :p. A nanoshielded exo with a3 would take like 32 bites and potentially be able to win against 2 caranoses lol.
<!--quoteo(post=2030988:date=Nov 21 2012, 07:40 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 21 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because that would be very op :p. A nanoshielded exo with a3 would take like 32 bites and potentially be able to win against 2 caranoses lol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nanoshield scales, I just thought it was a fixed amount of armor no matter where it was "cast". Learning stuff everyday.
They are unable to conform to the dominant competative late game tactic that is to continually move between targets hitting different places then moving on before the aliens can react to stop you. Jetpacks and shotguns are able to do this, even if the entire team goes in and attacks a hive and the alien team closes in to kill them they can still all be saved by nano, meds and then a beacon. The exo is unable to move quickly to attack before the alien team can ready to counter it, it cannot be beaconed to safety or supported by the commander as easily as marines can and it is unable to continually swap its focus from one target to another by using phasegates + mobility.
If the dominant marine start in Competative play was to slowly advance upon the aliens the entire game and eventually kill a single point of focus exos would be perfect but that is totally not true, a marine team must shut down aliens into 30% of the map or less to win and the exos role is entirely the opposite for this. In large games you are able to make use of them in ones and two supporting a push team on one side of the map whilst another push team does something else elsewhere: In 6v6 games this is completely unviable losing one marine capable of continually swapping focus and doing damage before aliens can react is a much bigger loss than a single exo who can be reacted to easily and is unable to retreat/change its target is not beneficial.
Thus to solve the exo we need to either: Leave it just as a pub toy. used in ones and twos to be useful on larger teams. Dramatically change the game so Marines do not need to constantly change their focus to win. (this one is sarcasm) Alter the exo making it either faster/able to act solo/able to use phasegates and beacon/a little of all three.
An onos is better than a skulk in every way. (its a little bit slower) A jetpack marine is better than a marine in most ways. An Exo is: Slower, cant heal itself, cant be healed by the comm, cant use phasegates, cant beacon and the aiming is... insteresting... (why are we paying for these again?)
My suggestion remains the same: Swap the 50 res exos claw to a welder, we will see 2 man push exos on the hive late game with 3 marines continually swap focus to res towers/other hive/assist the exos. We will see them used as often as fades and we will see fana-tane-pain-exo-trains. (I think! /hope)
Meh, EXOs are a joke anyway. I just killed 2 EXOs again - <b>as a skulk</b>. They were both firing right at me as I ran in circles and killed them. At that range no one can say 'skill' is a factor. So either there is a hit registration issue, or the EXOs just really suck.
No wonder skilled commanders are going with only jetpacks now. I didn't quite understand it until I realized how easy it is to kill EXOs.
<!--quoteo(post=2031710:date=Nov 21 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 21 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meh, EXOs are a joke anyway. I just killed 2 EXOs again - <b>as a skulk</b>. They were both firing right at me as I ran in circles and killed them. At that range no one can say 'skill' is a factor. So either there is a hit registration issue, or the EXOs just really suck.
No wonder skilled commanders are going with only jetpacks now. I didn't quite understand it until I realized how easy it is to kill EXOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's retarded, it's not that hard to hit a skulk running around you in an exo lol, they were awful and probably had 10 fps
<!--quoteo(post=2031844:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:00 AM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Nov 22 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's retarded, it's not that hard to hit a skulk running around you in an exo lol, they were awful and probably had 10 fps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd love to think that, seriously. I'm not a player with 'mad skillz'. How to explain it though? Yeah I was circle strafing around one EXO, and we could say that if he was uncoordinated that he might not be able to track me at his feet. It's plausible.
So what about the SECOND EXO standing only 5 feet away? Since he's not under attack, he has a clear shot. How did I not die from him, and then how was I able to kill HIM too? The only way a skulk should be able to solo an EXO is if you catch one weak and alone. It's like saying a marine should be able to solo an Onos - it's not supposed to happen. Heck, could you imagine the uproar if a solo marine could solo TWO ONOS?
If I have a dual exo I dont stop firing. Temp never climbs above 25% on either gun. Full guns on an onos if it appears. Ive rarely at the front unless it is a final hive push. Flame thrower and welder is essential, a sapped onos is a useless onos. Exos have their place and certainly in an 8 player match then one or maybe 2 is good for long range suppression, whilst the marines worry about scouting and skulks.
Coordination in the key. JP + LMG is the staple with a specialist grenadier, flamer and exo - maybe 2 if you need. Certianly not the full team!
JP + phase + forward armoury is easily the best combination. Comms dropping single exo is a massive massive waste of res. Better to build a pg, armoury and drop a jp!
Nothing annoys me more than a commander going all the way to dual exos making us wait 4 minutes to unlock jetpacks while the slow clunky exos just die. And this is when I am practically begging for jetpacks on the mic as soon as he gets a protolab.
And that one armed exo feels utterly useless. Not powerful enough to finish off aliens that take off and it removes the heavy firepower advantage exos have with a weak fist. I mean maybe if that fist was replaced by a welder so you can build structures and even repair other exos you can see it at least has a support role and a gun to defend itself.
Your only options of healing are either players being nice enough to weld or those low health macs that cost res and are not as good as actual players.
And now that we have railgun exos incoming, even though I do not know the features of the guns, the exo will still probably carry the same disadvantages of an exo just with a different weapon. Not to mention the extra research cost and time to unlock it. Nothing like more waiting. It should be a prerequisite for jetpacks to be unlocked before exos.
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, these units cost res. Secondly, they are killed with 2 bile bombs. I had a game yesterday where the comm had 5 on an EXO, they lasted all of 10 seconds once the bile started flowing. Why spend res on something that will die so quickly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Both a gorge and a welder also cost res, as does a craig upgrade. They live a good 10 seconds after being bilebombed as well, and can weld eachother to last 3 biles. A good commander can micro macs out of the way of bile, but honestly, they're so cheap it's hardly the end of the world if you lose a few. They cost 5 res. 1 exo fist suit costs 10 macs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You talk nanoshield, but that costs res too, just like the macs. Heck even the marines that heal the EXOs have to BUY a welder out of their personal res, and the welder has to be researched first. It all costs resources, and yet aliens get it all for free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So do lerks, umbra upgrade research, and the third hive. And umbra can't be dropped anywhere on the map instantly. It requires a lerk flying in the area. Gorges cost res as well. Granted they get healspray for free after that, but they're 10 res more expensive than a welder, and a marine with a welder will beat a gorge 1 v 1 every time. Gorges underpowered? No, that's just the way the game works. Craig upgrades are free after they're researched, but they're a lot more expensive than welder tech to get in the first place, especially if you need to get a second hive before getting them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, but those advantages should balance out in the big scheme of things. Right now there is a clear imbalance with EXOs. I can't believe the devs will leave them this way. Heh, I killed two as a skulk a few days ago. Just waited until they passed by and came from behind. Zero res alien takes out 150 res. You can try and say that they were inexperienced players, but could a LMG marine *EVER* solo two Onos, even if they were being played by new players? Of course not. He'd run out of ammo before he killed one of them.
The EXOs need work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you. The point I'm making is that if you just list the things that are a disadvantage for exo's and don't look at the advantages they DO have you get the impression they are absolute garbage and should never be purchased. They have their issues, but they have their advantages as well. Honestly, it's weird to even try to compare exo's with onos, they are totally different things, they should be used in different ways at different times to accomplish different goals. There is no 1 to 1 comparison. It's ignorant to even try to frame things so simply. The only thing they have in common is that they are both the top of the tech tree as far as a player is concerned. But NOTHING else in the tech tree's of the two races in NS are 1 to 1 matches, why should this be?
Hmm... last ENSL finals: 7 games, 6 marine wins. High skill marines > high skill aliens (if you can aim as a marine, aliens just can't do much).
Now, pub games are more like a crapshot - you have two high-random values in the form of the commander skills; find a commander that
talks and COMMAND, and you will find yourself winning unless the tactical skill levels between the two teams are just too different...
What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.
1. Slow
2. Expensive
3. Can't heal at armory
4. Can't build
5. Can't weld
6. Not better than jetpack vs any alien.
and here is the big one
7. Cannot be beaconed or use phasegate
I am having a hard time understanding the exosuit's role and what sort of strategies you would want to use it for. Without fail every time I see my team do an exo push on a hive, our main base immediately gets reamed by double onos and a fade, and suddenly our main is gone. Even a skulk rush proves really hard to stop because you can only beacon the members of your team that are not in exos. Suddenly your exos are left all alone and vulnerable and you don't even have a proper force to hold your main with.
Not only are they bad in nearly every way, they are huge and block line of sight for all the marines. They are such an easy target for all the aliens to just focus on immediately. They obviously cannot be super strong death machines or that would be imbalanced and unfun for aliens, but as they are now they are just a liability and a newb trap. I really miss heavy armor.
I guess the easiest fix I can think of is just make them smaller and able to do all the stuff normal marines can do. I don't see why they have to be so slow, this is the future and its the ultimate marine purchase. Onos definitely isn't slow. Also, slow things with no movement options don't require skill and are boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly, its so irritating that most coms ALWAYS research exo and even then even MORE frustrating they go DUAL FIRST before JP?! LOL JP are cheaper and better in almost every way. and even then most of the time the team cant even afford the exos that are researched! lol.
To be honest, this is a design issue that keeps coming back to bite us. I love these devs and the work they do, but I feel their Achilles heel has to be the sheer number of times that we end up with "rookie-bait" features that sound awesome and fail horribly. In NS1 we had non-DC first hives, sentry guns, electrified res nodes. In NS2 we have sentry guns, robotics factories and exosuits.
Sometimes I think they need to be a little bit more brutal with their own game. Game features need to be either good or gone. Sentry guns and hydras are an excellent example of this. They either need to be worth spending resources on, or they need to be cut from the game entirely. Anything else is just going to be frustrating and confusing to a new a player.
Personally, I'm starting to think this game is perfectly fine without sentries, and possibly without hydras.
Now, pub games are more like a crapshot - you have two high-random values in the form of the commander skills; find a commander that
talks and COMMAND, and you will find yourself winning unless the tactical skill levels between the two teams are just too different...
What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really balance around people who have near-aimbot levels of aim, because that would ruin the game at all levels except comp.
The EXO is very easily bile spammed by gorge/lerk. The marine equivalent (grenade launcher) does very little indirect damage to the Onos, and has a slower overall firing rate when reload is taken into account.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->gorges, yes, lerk is basically useless against exo until they have umbra <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Lerks have spore which also ruins all marine vision in the area, just thought i would point that out.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The EXO does NOT get a range advantage. Why? Weapon spin up time. With very few areas 'wide open' the onos can easily be on top of the EXO by the time his guns start to fire.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->A good player can deal with this without too much trouble<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Put quite simply, you are telling us to l2p, why dont you instead tell us the techniques for dealing with this situation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The EXO travel speed is a half that of the Onos. Since an EXO can't use a phase gate, an Onos can hit the marine base in roughly 50% of the time it takes an EXO to go from base to the hive. (and the Onos can get there faster using charge)
The EXO lacks an 'escape' mechanism like the Onos. While the Onos has 'charge', the EXO has a weak jetpack lift that is useless in most areas since they are enclosed.
The EXO is healed at a slower rate than an Onos. The welder repairs at 30/sec, while the Gorge can heal an Onos for 47/sec. That's roughly 50% faster.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->However, aliens don't ever get an AI controlled healer. Mac's are a huge buff to exos because they're cheap, effective, distracting, and require no player intervention<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Yea, I like macs, but 2 bile bombs and they are dead, plus, you mention distracting, which they are often more so distracting to the marine players than the aliens. Also they can't run away from engagements like the pesky gorge ;)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The EXO has no equivalent defensive boost as the Onos does with Umbra. An Onos in Umbra has his effective health pool doubled, making him nearly impossible to kill without being heavily outgunned.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Nanoshield, umbra is hive 3, marines have nanoshield immediately, Exos have a better version of umbra earlier in the game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Oh Alas, if only you actually played the same game I was playing. Nanoshield actually requires 2 CCs and heres the kicker, it doesnt work on Exos. Also... 50% less damage on one unit (non-exo) or a whole group of units (including onos). Look at the comparison there and tell me that Nanoshield is better than Umbra. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The EXO is indirectly vulnerable from stomp, since it will disable the marine welders and prevent marine grenade attacks on gorges. The marines have no way to counter this.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Stomp doesn't work on Macs, it's also hive 3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->It's also kind of irrelevant when Bile Bomb is a 20 resource upgrade from a 10 resource gorge on hive 2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The single mini-gun EXO can't be upgraded, regardless of whether the player has the necessary resources to cover the difference in cost.
An EXO (dual mini) cannot be drooped by the Marine commander, yet an Onos egg can be dropped by the Alien commander.
The EXO cannot repair at an armory, despite basic marine armor being repairable at the armory. They have to be repaired manually. Meanwhile the Onos can heal quickly at a hive.
That's just off the top of my head. Some other EXO eaknesses unrelated to the Onos...
Since the EXO is armor only, the Marine commander loses his one tool to support players. (dropping medpacks)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->comm can still drop nanoshields on exo<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Again, please try playing the marine commander and get back to me<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The EXO cannot assist in building or repairing structures, even if the player has a welder equipped.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->neither can onos<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->This actually doesnt even matter because marines need to build structures, while the alien commander builds all of their buildings, hence an onos doesnt NEED to build. (Granted macs can build, but they are dumb and slow at it)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
So yeah, the EXO is gimped. Sure you can get a group of them together and make use of them, but they are much harder to use and maintain than a similar group of Onos.
You've also forgotten that if you have bought gear before you get into the Exo suit, your gear disappears.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but I think it was a bit disingenuous claiming that exo's have all these disadvantages that onos don't have to deal with, when many of those advantages exo's DO have their own version of, as well as other support buffs that onos don't have (like flamethrowers).
Exo's also have the advantage of only requiring 2 tech points to be fully upgraded, where onos require 3. However, exo are objectively more expensive for the comm to field, and fixed to a later stage of the game. (considering T-res drops anyways)
in the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other... it's more about what actually happens in the real game than theorycrafting "well, maybe there are X amount of exos here and Y amount of onos there, then aliens have an advantage"
You've also forgotten that if you have bought gear before you get into the Exo suit, your gear disappears.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but I think it was a bit disingenuous claiming that exo's have all these disadvantages that onos don't have to deal with, when many of those advantages exo's DO have their own version of, as well as other support buffs that onos don't have (like flamethrowers).
Exo's also have the advantage of only requiring 2 tech points to be fully upgraded, where onos require 3. However, exo are objectively more expensive for the comm to field, and fixed to a later stage of the game. (considering T-res drops anyways)
in the end of the day it's like comparing apples and oranges. You're always going to find scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the other... it's more about what actually happens in the real game than theorycrafting "well, maybe there are X amount of exos here and Y amount of onos there, then aliens have an advantage"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the end of the next day, we realize that there is pretty much no scenario wheres a dual mini exo has an advantage over a jetpack, and based on the 20 last games I have played as marine, we have been smashed time and time again everytime we get into exos, and only win the games where we are just extremely annoying with jetpacks.
Trust me, I play aliens just as much as I play marines. Honest to god I have not lost an alien game in about 30 games. While my marine w/l ratio is about 25% or less.
Give exos a flamethrower instead of a second minigun.
Everyone hesitates to run into a room with 1 exo let alone 2 while a onos can take an exo down, it's the riskiest move that onos is going to make.
Sometimes I think they need to be a little bit more brutal with their own game. Game features need to be either good or gone. Sentry guns and hydras are an excellent example of this. They either need to be worth spending resources on, or they need to be cut from the game entirely. Anything else is just going to be frustrating and confusing to a new a player.
Personally, I'm starting to think this game is perfectly fine without sentries, and possibly without hydras.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. You say DC-first hive is the only way to go. I see you haven't played NS1 for the last 5 years or so? When upgrades became free, DC got replaced with MC as the standard. I still loved the DC first occasionally, but it wasn't used very often.
2. I love turrets in NS2. They have amazing balance! They serve their role perfectly: decent enough against low or medium skilled player, can be fairly easily killed by a skilled player, but are way more effective with marine support. They're cheap, but always have a blind spot. Giving marines a stronger static defense that can manage better on its own would have to be balanced by a much higher cost. If you think the current ones aren't worth 20 res, try a less 'throw it out' approach, e.g. making the Battery cost 15 res and the turrets are free.
3. Hydras are the same thing, that maybe they can use some balance love but we shouldn't just throw them out. Why not make them cost only 2 res? That's still 6 res on top of the 10 for a gorge. Or raise their damage, rate of fire, health, maturity bonus, or give them a bonus ability like the Sense Players that I saw on the wiki but can't seem to see in-game. I imagine that was cut, but the idea, at least the implementation I saw in my head, was great.
These 'rookie bait' features are simply *cool*, and add to the diversity and depth. If they are out of balance, that can be fixed. But start chopping away at all the little things that can bring together the big experience, and you can really lose the feeling of the game.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely this 100% ^
As with most RTS, often the game is more or less decided in the first 5 minutes of the game. If 3 of those minutes are spent without a commander, or with teams in 3v3 mode, the rest of the game often isn't worth playing, because even if you have an awesome team the other team has economically won one way or another.
3v3 or less is INCREDIBLY unbalanced and heavily favors aliens due to their ability to attack while their RTs build themselves.
I don't know what the solution is, don't start the game until at least 5v5 or 6v6 is reached? That would kill a lot of servers though, and make servers very hard to start. It's definitely an annoying problem right now though.
An intermediate solution would be some kind of warm-up... like 30-45 seconds of warm-up before the game actually starts, so people can leave/join/go grab a drink/go to the restroom/whatever between rounds, and don't start until at least 3v3 with coms in the chairs maybe?
there is nothing more boring in a game that welding an exo for 5 minutes + (also known as having a white dot burnt into your screen and eyes)
What would really help is if games don't start until both sides have a commander; ie allow people to enter the command chair during the pre-game to signal that they are willing to command, and don't start the game until both sides have a commander.
That will stop half the games from being decided from the start because one side lacks a willing commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 this is a must!
Not going to happen. They already commented on it and said it would nullify strategies that utilize having no commander at the beginning of the game. A valid strategy is to rush with everyone at first and have someone hop into command later. It is more prevalent on the alien side but is still a valid tactic for both teams.
P.S. - Your avatar made me smile and I love it.
there is nothing more boring in a game that welding an exo for 5 minutes + (also known as having a white dot burnt into your screen and eyes)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what's a dual exo to do when it runs out of ammo? If the commander's not paying attention you're SOL. I'd rather deal with overheating than run out of ammo mid-push or right as an Onos charges at us. There's also a morale factor if that big noisy exosuit the team is gathered around suddenly goes *click-click-click*.
Regardless, I'm also in agreement that jetpack is just too useful compared to the exo. I played against a team that went full jetpack and there was nothing the aliens could do to counter. The mobility, the dodging, the map presence: jetpacks plus phase gates give marines the advantage of speed, something that's usually the domain of the alien team.
Plus, being even slightly mid-air makes you immune to stomp. Keep that in mind next time you're in a jetpack facing an Onos. It could save your life!
Trust me, I play aliens just as much as I play marines. Honest to god I have not lost an alien game in about 30 games. While my marine w/l ratio is about 25% or less.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The recent changes to regen have made onos easier to pin back into the hive with an Exo... None the less, I agree with your point on jetpacks generally speaking.
Ask for ammo before you start running out - if comm can see marine health, then he could see exo ammo counters. I guess if comm isn't paying attention then you are SOL regardless of the situation.
P.S. - Your avatar made me smile and I love it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol - i have yet to see a decent gorge rush in ns2 :)
I guess you can always get in the chair to kick off the round, and then jump back out if you want a non-commander tactic.
it just seems like a good idea to have some kind of ready button/trigger, even its not the command chair.
Because that would be very op :p. A nanoshielded exo with a3 would take like 32 bites and potentially be able to win against 2 caranoses lol.
Nanoshield scales, I just thought it was a fixed amount of armor no matter where it was "cast". Learning stuff everyday.
They are unable to conform to the dominant competative late game tactic that is to continually move between targets hitting different places then moving on before the aliens can react to stop you. Jetpacks and shotguns are able to do this, even if the entire team goes in and attacks a hive and the alien team closes in to kill them they can still all be saved by nano, meds and then a beacon. The exo is unable to move quickly to attack before the alien team can ready to counter it, it cannot be beaconed to safety or supported by the commander as easily as marines can and it is unable to continually swap its focus from one target to another by using phasegates + mobility.
If the dominant marine start in Competative play was to slowly advance upon the aliens the entire game and eventually kill a single point of focus exos would be perfect but that is totally not true, a marine team must shut down aliens into 30% of the map or less to win and the exos role is entirely the opposite for this. In large games you are able to make use of them in ones and two supporting a push team on one side of the map whilst another push team does something else elsewhere: In 6v6 games this is completely unviable losing one marine capable of continually swapping focus and doing damage before aliens can react is a much bigger loss than a single exo who can be reacted to easily and is unable to retreat/change its target is not beneficial.
Thus to solve the exo we need to either: Leave it just as a pub toy. used in ones and twos to be useful on larger teams.
Dramatically change the game so Marines do not need to constantly change their focus to win. (this one is sarcasm)
Alter the exo making it either faster/able to act solo/able to use phasegates and beacon/a little of all three.
An onos is better than a skulk in every way. (its a little bit slower)
A jetpack marine is better than a marine in most ways.
An Exo is: Slower, cant heal itself, cant be healed by the comm, cant use phasegates, cant beacon and the aiming is... insteresting... (why are we paying for these again?)
My suggestion remains the same:
Swap the 50 res exos claw to a welder, we will see 2 man push exos on the hive late game with 3 marines continually swap focus to res towers/other hive/assist the exos.
We will see them used as often as fades and we will see fana-tane-pain-exo-trains. (I think! /hope)
No wonder skilled commanders are going with only jetpacks now. I didn't quite understand it until I realized how easy it is to kill EXOs.
No wonder skilled commanders are going with only jetpacks now. I didn't quite understand it until I realized how easy it is to kill EXOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's retarded, it's not that hard to hit a skulk running around you in an exo lol, they were awful and probably had 10 fps
So what about the SECOND EXO standing only 5 feet away? Since he's not under attack, he has a clear shot. How did I not die from him, and then how was I able to kill HIM too? The only way a skulk should be able to solo an EXO is if you catch one weak and alone. It's like saying a marine should be able to solo an Onos - it's not supposed to happen. Heck, could you imagine the uproar if a solo marine could solo TWO ONOS?
So why was I able to pull this off?
Coordination in the key. JP + LMG is the staple with a specialist grenadier, flamer and exo - maybe 2 if you need. Certianly not the full team!
JP + phase + forward armoury is easily the best combination. Comms dropping single exo is a massive massive waste of res. Better to build a pg, armoury and drop a jp!
And that one armed exo feels utterly useless. Not powerful enough to finish off aliens that take off and it removes the heavy firepower advantage exos have with a weak fist. I mean maybe if that fist was replaced by a welder so you can build structures and even repair other exos you can see it at least has a support role and a gun to defend itself.
Your only options of healing are either players being nice enough to weld or those low health macs that cost res and are not as good as actual players.
And now that we have railgun exos incoming, even though I do not know the features of the guns, the exo will still probably carry the same disadvantages of an exo just with a different weapon. Not to mention the extra research cost and time to unlock it. Nothing like more waiting. It should be a prerequisite for jetpacks to be unlocked before exos.