Exo disadvantages

NortonNorton Join Date: 2005-01-13 Member: 35264Members
edited November 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
I cannot imagine a single situation where I would rather have an Exosuit than a jetpack. The only thing Exos do is trick new players and commanders into wasting resources on them. Honestly they are worse than having nothing at all. Quick rundown on their problems.

1. Slow
2. Expensive
3. Can't heal at armory
4. Can't build
5. Can't weld
6. Not better than jetpack vs any alien.

and here is the big one

7. Cannot be beaconed or use phasegate


I am having a hard time understanding the exosuit's role and what sort of strategies you would want to use it for. Without fail every time I see my team do an exo push on a hive, our main base immediately gets reamed by double onos and a fade, and suddenly our main is gone. Even a skulk rush proves really hard to stop because you can only beacon the members of your team that are not in exos. Suddenly your exos are left all alone and vulnerable and you don't even have a proper force to hold your main with.

Not only are they bad in nearly every way, they are huge and block line of sight for all the marines. They are such an easy target for all the aliens to just focus on immediately. They obviously cannot be super strong death machines or that would be imbalanced and unfun for aliens, but as they are now they are just a liability and a newb trap. I really miss heavy armor.

I guess the easiest fix I can think of is just make them smaller and able to do all the stuff normal marines can do. I don't see why they have to be so slow, this is the future and its the ultimate marine purchase. Onos definitely isn't slow. Also, slow things with no movement options don't require skill and are boring.
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Comments

  • NoMoreChilliesNoMoreChillies Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169666Members
    maybe remove the mini-gun overheat?
    make them walking tanks

    as i play, Onos scares the crap outta me, making me run looking for teamates.
    exos dont scare me at all
  • WackOhWackOh Join Date: 2004-07-25 Member: 30100Members
    Well a game i had not too long ago on docking where me and two others got into dual exos, as soon as that happened we lost our 2nd tech point and aliens seemed sure to win with onoses all over the map.

    The two exos and some welding marines as backup pushed tram, so naturally aliens rushed terminal for the power node, comm beaconed leaving us two exos. We held off wave after wave of skulks and fades and slowly destroyed structures one a time in tram. We constantly fell back till we got welded, only for marines to be beaconed again, this happened at least three times, eventually the exos took down Tram. We secured it and moved off to generator, same deal with the beaconing and holding off waves and slowly pushing hive. Once generator was down we had the momentum, and aliens just lost all theirs as well as compusure, their res nodes were all taken out by the constant exo push. Then we won, and guess what, it was the exos that won it.

    How?

    Dont be retarded with your exos and put yourself in a situation where you can get swarmed from all sides ie push for a open hive when the approach itself had little resistance cause guess what, the aliens are probably all waiting to chomp your ass.
    Know when to fall back, and hold key corridors rather than an entire room where aliens will maneuver around your guns.
    Dont all shoot at once, coordinate minigun firings so there is never all exos overheating at once.
    Focus onos, communication is the key.

    TL;DR learn to exo, it has its uses
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    They do have an incredible DPS output and infinite ammo. A dual exo with decent timing can fire continuously by alternating his guns, meaning he'll never be caught out in an ambush during a reload. They can also take a pretty good beating.

    Personally, I suspect a <i>single</i> exo on base defense would be quite effective, and having it on defense would negate the beacon issue. Gorges would have a hard time hitting an exo who is camping a doorway from a distance as well.

    Offensively, an exo attracts a lot of attention. Committing your entire team to an exo train just leaves the rest of the map (including your bases) vulnerable. Getting one exo to make some noise over on the western side of your map while your jetpackers ninja a hive on the east side of the map could be an effective distraction.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    erm...

    infinite ammo and very high dps, not to mention having >1000 hit points (compared to the marine having 280 hit points).

    oh... and have fun trying to kill an exosuit that's getting repaired.


    imo the only reason exo is not great, especially in competitive games, is that you can't defend with it because PG's and beacon don't work. you attack veil c-12 as an exosuit, the alien can literally destroy nanogrid, skylights, overlook, topo and basically every RT on the map while avoiding contact with the exo 100% of the time.
  • SiminiSimini Join Date: 2012-09-28 Member: 160916Members
    A decent exo should never be the one at the front of the marine squad, you should also make sure you are completely covered by marines.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026786:date=Nov 17 2012, 06:21 AM:name=NoMoreChillies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NoMoreChillies @ Nov 17 2012, 06:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe remove the mini-gun overheat?
    make them walking tanks

    as i play, Onos scares the crap outta me, making me run looking for teamates.
    exos dont scare me at all<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thats because exosuits are slow. You can outmaneuver them. Main scary thing about an onos is its nearly impossible to escape them if they charge you down.
  • sharnrocksharnrock Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166084Members
    Ya, they seem sorta glass cannon. I can't stand it when the comm starts spamming single gun exos. What is the point of those?
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    Resource wise they are a waste.

    A fully Upp'd Exo vrs a Fully Upp'd Onos.
    The onos will win. You are dealing something with 2400 health vrs something with 350. The onos can easily out manuever the exo and destroy it.
    If the onos is smart he would use stomp to disable the welder. Then just smash the exo to bits.

    But to be a fair fight it would be Exo + welder vrs Onos + Gorge. If gorge bile bombed exo. Exo is essentially blind and loosing health over time. So is the marine welding it.

    ---

    As for Exo's Ball of death. A good alien comm can always win if a Ball of death Exo comes. By simply attacking Humans main base every time. [Just attack power node] don't attack anything else. Human comm will either becon. Causing him to most likely loose the exos. Or Not know its his power node, and loose the game.

    If he does becon and loose the exos. The aliens have to push fast and retake lost area. Humans may have more resources for another exo push. But they would loose dominance quite quickly if done right.

    Really comes down to the alien commander and the players. [I know its quiet possible because we won alot of times with this tactic quite well]
  • maD maXmaD maX Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
    Lol you'd be surprised at where an exo can climb
    Example; warehouse if you have a com in the warehouse chair you can get into the rafters... Of if you have another exo to jump off of.

    My point is if your making a 3 exo 5 rine push on a base your setting yourself up to get raped back at base. But if you make a 2 exo 5 rine push you can leave an exo in base(hopefully in a place onos can't easily get to) and most likely scare off a rush.

    The two most important things you can do as an exo are a) never go alone b) keep track of onos on mini map. If you saw an onos kill a guy up ahead asume he's waiting for you around the corner. An exos biggest advantage is range you should never round a corner if an onos was in the vicinity within the last 10 seconds back up and use a hallway.


    Tactical retreat is key to any higher lifeform in most situations the least patient player losses. If you have players headed you way wait 5 seconds, if your in an exo alone because they got beaconed move to the place with the best vantage and longer hallways and wait.

    In order for their to be a fight there has to be two people your one of those two people choose where you want the fight to happen and avoid places where the enemy has the advantage
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=2026883:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:53 AM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 18 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A fully Upp'd Exo vrs a Fully Upp'd Onos.
    The onos will win. You are dealing something with 2400 health vrs something with 350.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Even without upgrades, a smart solo onos absolutely decimates a solo exo. That being said, it's a heck of a lot more than 350: Armor innately absorbs some of the damage it receives.

    I don't really remember the exact details, but an onos hits structure for about 200 damage, and it takes a good 6 or 7 hits to take out an exo. I'm thinking it works out to around 1200 or so effective health.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=2026944:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:39 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 18 2012, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you saw an onos kill a guy up ahead asume he's waiting for you around the corner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Muahahaha. I love doing exactly this as an onos. I'll often dash into a room and run out early to trick marines into thinking I'm on the run. They follow, I feast.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    Yes, but...

    1. Infinite ammo
    2. Huge DPS
    3. Armor up to 580
    4. Motion tracking

    They can take a hive down faster than anything, and are even better at defense if you just mind your positioning. I think the exo's are in a good place. Jetpacks are just dirt cheap.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    Add the fun factor:
    - You need 1 sec to start shooting
    - In fights you don't see anything

    Making beacon/PG available to Exos would help a lot.
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    Leave an exo in base to guard against base rush. Exos are only death traps when they are used by people that think they can tank unlimited damage and run out away from the group. Having a light marine with a grenade launcher supporting the exos increases their effectiveness a lot.
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    Exo shouldn't be able to be recalled. That would give Marines a huge advantage. The fact is its a powerplay risk vrs reward.
    Should you becon? or should you not. Are you willing to loose your exos? or not. All a power play.

    After for Exos being able to travel in unique locations thats true. But right now map design is so limited. There really is no vantage points for Exos.
    I really wish their were more spots on the map for marines to hide from an onos. For example a spot to think for an onos to run through, just enough for a marine.
  • Draco HoustonDraco Houston Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167145Members
    I never use exosuits myself for the reasons the OP listed, but if the exos dont get in too deep you can usually get back to them with phase gates after a beacon. They aren't as good as some people think they are but a pair of dual minigun exos pack a real punch. Provided they take out enough things to pay for themselves, having some exos on the map can be helpful. I don't really think saving up for one instead of getting jetpacks, welders, mines and so on throughout the game is the best use of resources though.
  • MerlinCrossMerlinCross Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168471Members
    Doesn't the EXO gun negate part of the armor of the target he's hitting? Or does it just do more damage to the armor? Read that somewhere.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    8. Incredibly boring to play. You got nothing to do but crawl around the map like a leech and shoot stuff with your infinite ammo. I had my most boring moments in NS2 in a exo. It's just too slow, clunky and simple.
  • maD maXmaD maX Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
    You want exos to be fun? Next time you get a ninja pg drop a proto next to it... Nothing like buying a dual Exo behind enemy lines and walking into a hive.
    Did this yesterday we had command/sub they had cargo/pipe/double. No mater how hard we couldn't make any head way so I snuck into maintenance got a pg up and asked the com to drop me a proto.... Turns out two exos can rape a hive if no one is around...

    On a side note while I agree onos>Exo it's still very risky as an onos to attack an Exo unless the Exo is terrible you will be very low hp and if there is a rine or 2 around they have a good chance of finishing you off. As an onos I avoid Exos unless I absolutely have to so if an Exo is camping his base his base is safe unless I have at least 1-2 onos with me.
  • Draco HoustonDraco Houston Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167145Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027022:date=Nov 18 2012, 03:50 AM:name=MerlinCross)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MerlinCross @ Nov 18 2012, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't the EXO gun negate part of the armor of the target he's hitting? Or does it just do more damage to the armor? Read that somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    IIRC the damage from miniguns are not mitigated by armour at all.
  • drilltoothdrilltooth Join Date: 2012-11-12 Member: 170096Members
    Exo is a heavy support unit. devestating, but, not too tough. of course, like everything, comes down to who is driving.. Nothing like sneaking up on a hive. likewise, nothing like keeping a handfull at bay as a gorge with terrain advantage.
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    Like someone posted earlier dropping a ninja pg and proto lab to buy exos at a hive is the only real use for them I've seen, and they're very expensive for what you get especially compared to JPs and considering the time and res cost in researching them.
  • maD maXmaD maX Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027120:date=Nov 17 2012, 08:28 PM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 17 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like someone posted earlier dropping a ninja pg and proto lab to buy exos at a hive is the only real use for them I've seen, and they're very expensive for what you get especially compared to JPs and considering the time and res cost in researching them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Fun is priceless!!!
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    edited November 2012
    Exo's are not preferable to jetpacks anywhere that the aliens can just choose to not fight them. They're also not preferable to jetpacks in small numbers scattered around the map. However, they're preferable to jetpacks in a group of 3 or more standing right outside an alien hive.

    Exo's can often win the game in the situation where you can force the alien to fight them by threatening something they need. An exo march, if it's not seriously countered, will sweep one hive after another faster than the hives can return to life.

    If you can either both do the exo rush and prevent a base race, or if you can do the exo rush and seriously delay the base race, then exo's can win you the game.
  • ChalarieChalarie Join Date: 2012-05-03 Member: 151459Members
    Here is the one thing I have noticed that almost <u>no one</u> seems to realize about exos (and marines in general);

    <u>The major benefit that marines have over aliens is RANGE.</u>

    This applies to all marines, but people seem to ignore the fact that it is even more important with an exo. Comparing health or other base stats between an exosuit and an onos is meaningless, because a good exo will use their range.

    Example: You are a single dual-minigun exosuit going around the map with a welder. If you are at the end of a hallway, and an onos walks around the corner and starts running towards you, you have that entire amount of time it takes for it to get near you to be dealing <u>constant damage to the onos</u> . If the onos isn't dead by the time it gets to you, it usually doesn't take long if he does.

    Good exosuit pilots will use their range advantage effectively. This means waiting and the end of hallways, not putting yourself in close quarters, having marines scout out around corners to make sure there isn't an onos waiting for you, and remembering that you are <u>not invincible.</u> If you do not like the fact that you move slowly, then the exosuit is just not for you. It is a slow process, that pays off with high DPS. I guarantee you, that in an exo vs onos situation where the exo is at the end of the hallway and the onos is the aggressor, the exo <u>WILL win 90% of the time.</u>

    To give you a little more perspective, here is what I try and do is an onos vs exo situation on the aliens side:

    If I see or hear an exo, I will not run towards it because I know that is a death sentence. Rather, what I will do is simply wait right around the corner and wait for it to walk around so I can demolish it. Just as with any other alien lifeform, the most important strategy is all about closing distance and not giving the ranged marine that advantage.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027185:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:34 PM:name=Chalarie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chalarie @ Nov 17 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is the one thing I have noticed that almost <u>no one</u> seems to realize about exos (and marines in general);

    <u>The major benefit that marines have over aliens is RANGE.</u>

    This applies to all marines, but people seem to ignore the fact that it is even more important with an exo. Comparing health or other base stats between an exosuit and an onos is meaningless, because a good exo will use their range.

    Example: You are a single dual-minigun exosuit going around the map with a welder. If you are at the end of a hallway, and an onos walks around the corner and starts running towards you, you have that entire amount of time it takes for it to get near you to be dealing <u>constant damage to the onos</u> . If the onos isn't dead by the time it gets to you, it usually doesn't take long if he does.

    Good exosuit pilots will use their range advantage effectively. This means waiting and the end of hallways, not putting yourself in close quarters, having marines scout out around corners to make sure there isn't an onos waiting for you, and remembering that you are <u>not invincible.</u> If you do not like the fact that you move slowly, then the exosuit is just not for you. It is a slow process, that pays off with high DPS. I guarantee you, that in an exo vs onos situation where the exo is at the end of the hallway and the onos is the aggressor, the exo <u>WILL win 90% of the time.</u>

    To give you a little more perspective, here is what I try and do is an onos vs exo situation on the aliens side:

    If I see or hear an exo, I will not run towards it because I know that is a death sentence. Rather, what I will do is simply wait right around the corner and wait for it to walk around so I can demolish it. Just as with any other alien lifeform, the most important strategy is all about closing distance and not giving the ranged marine that advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The main benefit aliens have over marines IS SPEED. Aliens usually have the choice of weather to fully commit, to hit and run, or to not commit at all. Marines generally don't get to make that choice. If they can't kill whatever they are fighting against outright, they will just die.

    Exo's are constantly presented with this situation where they are forced to fight in little corners, because the aliens just didn't move forwards until the exo was close enough to attack.

    These 2 things are the fundamental balance axiom that NS2 is built off of. Marines always have to try to exploit the range advantage, and aliens always have to try to exploit the speed advantage, and whoever does a better job of exploiting there own specific advantage wins the skirmish (and probably the game).
  • MerlinCrossMerlinCross Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168471Members
    I find them to be more useful than not. I mean, if they aren't useful it's because we were getting rolled anyway. Still, looking forward to when they either buff them or come out with the Railgun version. If that's still in the works that is, info from the wiki can be wrong.
  • maD maXmaD maX Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
    Corners! One more reason for a Jp/GL/welder to hang out with an Exo. Aside from blowing up little ankle biters you can bounce grenades around corners forcing aliens to push in or fall back. Again strategy applies to the FPS aspect (choose/force them to fight when and where you want)
  • MaximumSquidMaximumSquid Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
    edited November 2012
    Someone says they are presently getting a +100 armor boost in the next patch and should help stop most of these <i>"1 onos killing an exo and running when two +3/+3 exos are together"</i> I'm seeing constantly

    A 15% increase to movement speed would also go a long ways

    If your exo has the HAND they should probably be able to build stuff too

    Being able to heal at an Armory might be too good though because I think they can shoot over one and just be immortal

    -
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Having one or two dual minigun exosuits is a huge boon to a hive push, and doesn't significantly inhibit your base defense. I've seen countless games turned around by it, provided the exos play smart and the team supports them properly.

    Not so sure about the single-gun exo. Removing yourself from beacon/phase availability for that feels like a questionable decision.
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