<!--quoteo(post=2066449:date=Jan 25 2013, 12:12 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Jan 25 2013, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When in reality, a good skulk can take down a lone exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Worse still, a lone skulk can often (yes, I mean often...!) take out 2 exos. Assuming the skulk is good and the exos are 'normal pub material.'
<!--quoteo(post=2066453:date=Jan 25 2013, 05:16 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 25 2013, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Worse still, a lone skulk can often (yes, I mean often...!) take out 2 exos. Assuming the skulk is good and the exos are 'normal pub material.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah, but not when they both have full hp, haven't seen that happen befor. I have, however, seen a skulk take down 2 but killed one after a few bites and the other exo was distracted by other aliens and the skulk chomped that one down to.
<!--quoteo(post=2065630:date=Jan 23 2013, 08:03 PM:name=Zodac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zodac @ Jan 23 2013, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right from the Balance.lua file... (X:\Steam\SteamApps\common\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua\) <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode kBileBombEnergyCost = 20 kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty sure this is wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You do understand this is from the GAME files right? It's not 'wrong'. This is currently how the game is coded. If you don't believe me, open up the file on your own machine and look.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Corrode damage type only does full damage to buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not fully accurate. Corrode only does ARMOR ONLY damage to NON structures. Guess what? EXOs only have armor. If the EXO had health, you would be right, since bile doesn't affect the health of players. However, the EXO has no health.
Hey, try it out for yourself. Grab a buddy, open an explore mode server, jump in an EXO and have your buddy hit you square on with a single bile bomb. See how much armor you lose after 5 seconds have passed. Then repeat it. Keep doing single bile bombs (with 5+ seconds in between) until the EXO is dead. Come back and let us know how it goes. Let us know how many bile bombs it takes to kill that EXO.
<!--quoteo(post=2065853:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:47 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 24 2013, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Zodac is right. Corrode damage does less damage against players. 2 bile bombs are never enough to kill an Exo. And this change came in before release. If you would play the game more often instead of only theory crafting, you would see, that Exos aren't that bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Excuse me? I play the game plenty and I kill EXOs with ease with bile spam. They need to weld constantly, with multiple marines, just to stay alive through the spam. The problem is that when the welders get beaconed the EXO is done. I've NEVER failed to kill an EXO as gorge when the marines were beaconed. NEVER. It's just not hard. If you can't kill an EXO as a gorge with bile bomb then you're playing the game wrong.
Let's pretend that bile only does 1/5th of the damage that the game files say it does. So instead of 350 armor damage over 5 seconds it's 70 damage over 5 seconds. For a SINGLE gorge to kill an EXO, it would take 8 hits and part of a 9th. So a bit less than 45 seconds. In that time the marines (who beaconed) have to fight the aliens at base, secure the base, phase to the nearest gate, and then run back. It's not gonna happen in 45 seconds unless you happen to be in one of the close pairings like Deposit and Sorting on Mineshaft. Or Flow Control and Pipeline on Refinery. The rest are just too far away.
In any case, the reality is that there isn't just one gorge working on those EXOs, he has his buddies with him. So when they beacon the EXOs are toast. We can debate semantics all you like, but if the alien team can't kill EXOs who have had their welders removed, then they need to learn to play.
Gorge is pretty crap against exos. They can kill them yes but it takes forever. They're certainly good to have along if you're attacking an exo simply because you can bile a whole crapload of marines and potentially some structures too, so bile bomb in general is a great thing to have, but in terms of actual DPS against exos, bile is pretty poor.
That said it does stack nicely with other alien attacks so gorges are, as always, good to bring along with an organised attack. It also has the obscuring view effect and can definitely help to unnerve exosuit players because exosuits tend to be a bit self-preservation oriented, with reason of course, they are a big investment. But bile bomb value is mostly psychological I think.
But yes I'm sure you can kill an exosuit with a gorge if the entire enemy team gets teleported to the other side of the map. I've killed exosuits with a single skulk in similar situations, albeit infrequently. They are not good without support, with support they are extremely effective. Don't put yourself in a situation where your exosuits are without support, same with your forward PGs or your arc trains or your marines in general.
Also from my experience bile bomb does indeed only do 1/5th (or vastly reduced, in any case) damage against players. Try biling some marines in their base. You'll notice that structures take lots of damage but marines will actually only lose a few HP per tick. Of course you can catch a lot of marines in one attack and it really does mess them up for other aliens to take out, but it is a very small amount of damage individually. Exos might take a bit more, but it's still a much smaller amount than structures take, structures can take hundreds of hitpoints of damage from one bile bomb.
<!--quoteo(post=2066237:date=Jan 25 2013, 07:17 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 25 2013, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it's not. NS1 was different since the weapon (the machine gun) wasn't tied to the heavy armor.
In any case, Charlie has said that he doesn't want anything to have a 'hard counter'. The Onos should not be an "I win" card over an EXO. Just as a fade shouldn't be an "I win" card over a shottie marine.
Your premise is flawed since if a single alien is meant to take on a group of marines, then a group of aliens would be unstoppable. All aliens would need to do would be to group up and that's a win. If it takes two marines to kill one alien, then aliens will always 'out power' the marines.
Sorry, no, that's not how the game was designed. Each class should be able to be counter the other based on their skill and weaponry. EXO should be able to take on an Onos. A shottie wielding marine should be able to take on a fade. With skulks a single marine should be able to take on a single skulk, provided that he is not ambushed. Whether or not the marine wins should come down to player skill, not some arbitrary design that suggests because you happen to be alone you forfeit the battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A single alien isn't meant to take on a group of marines, a group of marines is generally a bit stronger than an individual alien. A large group of marines is probably able to beat a similarly sized group of aliens.
That is the entire point, it's called scaling. Marines scale much better in groups than aliens do, especially when they use all of their tools (which they have a lot of).
Aliens have some interconnecting abilities, lerks can spore, gorges can bile bomb and heal, skulks can parasite I guess. But mostly the benefit of having aliens together is they have a bigger brick of hitpoints and more stabby bits to kill marines with.
Marines on the other hand are completely built around interconnectivity. Marines can combine flamethrowers to shut down aliens, while shotguns take out skulks which rush the group, while exos focus fire on fades and onoses to take them out, and grenade launcher lay down an wall of area explosives while being screened by the frontline troops, all marines can weld each other and a steady stream of medpacks from the commander will allow marines to rotate in and out of the frontline, allowing the whole group to keep rolling. This even extends down to the basic fundamentals of each team, where aliens durability is based heavily on moving and dodging, which becomes automatically harder the more bullets are flying and the more people are aiming in your general area. Marines automatically gain an advantage from groups because of more lead in the air, while aliens simply attract more gunfire and make it more likely that <i>somebody</i> is going to get shot.
Every alien except possibly the gorge is a combatant in its own right, but almost all of the marine upgrades except the jetpack and the shotgun are based around teamwork, working with other marines to cover your weaknesses while displaying your strengths. That is how it was in NS2 except, interestingly, for the HMG, which was just the 'get this and be universally better than everything except for one GL dude'. That, as far as I know, was why it was removed, and that is also why I'm rather glad it was removed.
Perhaps a picture will help. Marines are the curvy line, aliens are the straight lines. Aliens start out better but grouping helps them less, marines start out worse but get much much better when they group up:
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Savant is correct that bilebomb does damage to armor (a change made a while ago to make gorges more effective against things like ARCs and players) and, since exos are only armor, are particularly susceptible to gorges. This is why I tell all attacking exos to target gorges above all else.
As for exos, the key to becoming skilled with it is learning to overcome the multitude of HUD-obscuring effects that go with it (think minigun firing smoke, HUD targeting popups, etc). After that, you need to know how to prioritize targets. My personal list goes something like this 1. Gorges 2. Onos 3. Skulks 4. Hydras 5. Whips 6. Upgrade structures (veils, spurs, shells) 7. Support structures (crags, shifts, shades) 8. Hives 9. RTs 10. Fades and lerks
The final thing you need to learn is to never push forward without support (either MACs or welding marines), to make keeping those supporting units/players alive the next most important priority after keeping yourself alive, and knowing when and how to retreat.
<!--quoteo(post=2066524:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:27 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 25 2013, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A single alien isn't meant to take on a group of marines, a group of marines is generally a bit stronger than an individual alien. A large group of marines is probably able to beat a similarly sized group of aliens. That is the entire point, it's called scaling. Marines scale much better in groups than aliens do, especially when they use all of their tools (which they have a lot of).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I understand scaling, but the point you were making is that you suggest a single marine is not equivalent to a single alien. That just can't happen for there to be balance in the game. Nor can the opposite happen. A marine team can't scale better than the alien team or all they need to do is group up and zerg the alien team for the uncontestable win.
In a game built around player balance, if 8 alien players are not equivalent to 8 marine players, then you have a broken game. Period. Now as for the <i><b>CHOICES </b></i>those 8 players make, that's a whole other ball game. If you have 8 players who make choices that put them at a disadvantage compared to the choices made by the 8 opponents, then those 8 players are in for problems. Simple example, if you have 8 marines that choose grenade launchers, they're gonna get rolled since they have no means to address threats in close, and aliens are an 'in close' opponent. This is a losing tactical choice for marines.
Let's be clear here... I'm not suggesting that teamwork isn't a factor in successful gameplay. This is not a simple FPS where it is every man for himself nor have I ever suggested it is or should be. I'm with you if what you are suggesting is that you may need to have 3 marines in a group to take on one skulk *IF* that is because two of the marines are carrying weapons that don't lend itself to defending against that skulk. (like GLs)
However, so long as one of those 3 marines has an appropriate 'counter' weapon (like a shottie), then he should NOT need the assistance of the other 2 marines to kill the one skulk. He should be able to survive **one-on-one** versus that skulk. The battle should fall to the better skilled of the two players, not to the marines because there are three of them. See where I'm coming from here? It shouldn't take three marines to kill one skulk, but you might need three marines together to have the necessary marine available to counter that skulk.
I'm all for different weapons being needed to address different threats, but in any given situation *IF* you have the right 'counter', you should be competitive one-on-one.
This is why I object to the fact that a single skulk can easily solo an EXO while a marine can't do the same to an Onos. The EXO has certain aspects that give it a disadvantage against a SINGLE stock opponent, which the Onos has none. The Onos can be threatened significantly by 5 marines with weapons 5 LMGs, just as an EXO can be threatened significantly by 5 skulks with carapace. Yet as the number of opponents drops, the threat to the Onos drops. For the EXO it does not. A single skulk is just as deadly as 5 skulks. That's the disparity here.
It's also why I have problems with a single EXO losing a battle with a single Onos. Again, while I acknowledge that these two aren't meant to be meeting each other alone in a dark hallway to do battle - <i>should</i> they encounter each other, their survival should be based on their own skill. (with all things equal, both having armor upgrades for example) At present, since there is massive muzzle flash and the Onos model actually clips OVER the EXO, you have a player who sees nothing but the INSIDE of the Onos model. When this happens skill is immediately removed as a factor in the battle. It comes down to luck and whether the EXO can blindly follow the movements of the Onos. I've actually started opening the MAP to see the Onos and his orientation. I'm sorry, but that is a broken game mechanic. The reason the Onos clips through the EXO has nothing to do with the EXO, but has to do with preventing the Onos from getting stuck in tights places. Yet this alteration of the game mechanic for the Onos has given the EXO a disadvantage because of it. Since the Onos clips through the EXO, a large chunk of his model **and hitbox** are now not attackable by the EXO or marines that are nearby.
Then you can the matter of the EXO being the ONLY UNIT IN THE GAME that is armor only. Even the ARC and MAC (which are both just hunks of metal) have health. The EXO is armor only, and that too is unbalanced. At the very least the EXO should carry the marine's 100 health with him into the EXO. Adjust the armor if you must, but no EXO should fall to bile alone.
Both of the problems you listed at the start are present in the game. A distributed alien team versus a distributed marine team will trounce the marine team because individual marines are weak. Similarly a bunched up marine team is really hard for an alien team to actually do much about unless they have a lot of res worth of lifeforms. That's why marines attack in groups and aliens tend to spread out more.
And yes, those severely damage game balance from game to game, in that a game will often go completely one way or the other due to lack of teamwork on marines or lack of distribution on aliens (though aliens are a bit more intuitive in that sense because 'run off and do your own thing as far away from everyone else as you can' is actually kinda good play for aliens). But it's evident in your suggested strategies too, you're always answering a marine strategy that amounts to 'ball up together and make a big murderstack of doom', and your response is always 'aliens split into two, one holds, the other rushes the marine base'. The ENTIRE GAME is arguably a war between focus and distribution. And because the two teams are so unevenly matched, the response to the other team playing their strong hand is to play yours, which rarely involves meeting the enemy head on. Your criticism of the exo is that it doesn't work when the marines are split away from it, and that it doesn't work when the aliens choose to split up and attack everywhere. The alien strength is in splitting up, while the marine strength is in bunching up and working as a tight group.
The thing is though, the game works. It really does work, even in spite of the glaringly obvious theoretical problems with the scaling model. You'd think the liner vs quadratic scaling would be completely busted because unless you're at the very small point on the graph where the two lines intersect, one team is going to be massively better than the other, and a lot of the time that does happen, but it just doesn't matter. That the scaling model is a thing is certainly evident because of the fact that games are supposed to be played with a specific number of players (I think it's 6v6?) if you get more than that, marines do better, and less, aliens do better. Why would that be the case if teamwork based scaling wasn't different for each team?
I would almost say the point of the game has nothing to do with balance, though balance is often fairly close to 50/50 even so. For competition certainly it matters little if one side is harder than the other because competitive games are always played in pairs with swapped teams, so both teams have to do well with both sides. For public play, I would suggest that the fun comes from just playing around with all the mechanics rather than a perfectly rational win rate.
Regardless of the theoretical problems, the game still revolves sufficiently around player skill, both organisationally and in a more traditional FPS skill sense, that teams of 'good' players will win more. There is also a decent bit of variety in what you can do during the course of a game, each game tends to play out differently due to different starts and chaotic events causing different areas to be lost and won, different techs to be favored or ignored, and different fights with different competitors going different ways. If an exo and an onos meet in a hallway, the exo is an idiot for running around without marine support when onoses are in the field. Victory or loss is determined by their skill, it's just the skill of the onos for getting into an unexpected place, or the exo for making a terrible decision. If an exo and a fade meet in a hallway, it is decided by FPS skills, people have pointed out that skulks can take out exos if the player in the exo is bad enough or the skulk is good enough, that's entirely based on FPS skill. Onoses are just more of an organisational challenge than an FPS one. They can be beaten back with good organisation on the marine team, just as teamed exos and pushes are beaten by better 'organisation' on the alien team in the form of orchestrating a very decentralised counterattack.
Essentially, the game does not, theoretically, make perfect sense. Theoretically, you may expect it to completely suck as a game, but evidence suggests that it isn't the case. Evidently, the game is actually a lot of fun and can be played and enjoyed by a lot of different player types, and that includes plenty of people finding plenty of use for exos. Certainly I gauge the measure of success in a pub game by how many exos we can field quickly. If we can field a few, we can do some good with them. If we lose them, we generally lose ground because of that. That alone suggests that exos are a very important unit to marines, in a very sizable section of games played.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2066484:date=Jan 25 2013, 06:49 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 25 2013, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's pretend that bile only does 1/5th of the damage that the game files say it does. So instead of 350 armor damage over 5 seconds it's 70 damage over 5 seconds. For a SINGLE gorge to kill an EXO, it would take 8 hits and part of a 9th.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Corrode does normal damage to armor only, so each point of armor still absorbs 2 points of corrode damage. So multiply by two, you end up with 17 bilebombs to kill an A3 Exo.
<!--quoteo(post=2066678:date=Jan 25 2013, 06:50 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Jan 25 2013, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Corrode does normal damage to armor only, so each point of armor still absorbs 2 points of corrode damage. So multiply by two, you end up with 17 bilebombs to kill an A3 Exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Care to clarify this please? I'm gonna want to submit a bug report because I can kill an EXO with WAY less than 17 bile bombs. Perhaps that is part of the problem with the EXO is that bile is doing way more damage than it should. If bile needed 17 full hits (@5 seconds per hit) that's 85 seconds, or roughly a minute and a half. I know I can kill an EXO is far less than that, and others will attest to that too.
-Does bile do 70 damage per second with a 5 second duration as noted in balance.lua? (350 damage total over 5 seconds) -Does bile do DOUBLE damage to structure armor? (700 damage total over 5 seconds) -Does bile from different gorges stack? Is it supposed to stack? -How much damage should one direct hit bile bomb do to A3 EXO armor after 5 seconds? -How much damage should one direct hit bile bomb do to A3 marine armor after 5 seconds?
I'm actually very intrigued by this revelation, since this may have revealed a reason why EXOs are dying so fast. Perhaps the EXO isn't getting the benefit of 2 points absorption for each point of armor.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2066715:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:44 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 25 2013, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Care to clarify this please? I'm gonna want to submit a bug report because I can kill an EXO with WAY less than 17 bile bombs. Perhaps that is part of the problem with the EXO is that bile is doing way more damage than it should. If bile needed 17 full hits (@5 seconds per hit) that's 85 seconds, or roughly a minute and a half. I know I can kill an EXO is far less than that, and others will attest to that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bilebomb stacks, both your own and anyone elses. So no need to wait between them. I think you can expect to unload the required bilebombs in about 8-12 seconds, if you got adrenaline or a shift recharge.
And you can try it out. Start a server, "cheats 1" and "autobuild" in console, "j2", drop an extra hive, research bilebomb, "rr", "j1" to shift to marines, drop armory/armslab, research A3 ("tres" to get more team res"), "give exo" to drop an exo, "rr" "j2", evolve gorge, move to the exo, bile it and count the number of bilebombs you need.
I counted 19, I think Exos has gotten a 100 pts extra armor a couple of patches ago IIRC.
<!--quoteo(post=2066731:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:17 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Jan 25 2013, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bilebomb stacks, both your own and anyone elses. So no need to wait between them. I think you can expect to unload the required bilebombs in about 8-12 seconds, if you got adrenaline or a shift recharge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->OK, that makes more sense. I wasn't considering that it stacks, but I was getting a kill in about 10 seconds, and since bile goes for 5 seconds I was thinking 5 times 2. How many stacks can be active on the EXO at any one time from all gorges? (or is it stacks per gorge?) This is great info btw! :)
Huh, didn't know bile bomb stacked, does it stack on everything? I admit I didn't bother trying to stack it because I didn't notice any significant difference from multiple hits, though that may explain why I thought I was getting 'glancing' hits with bile bomb sometimes.
<!--quoteo(post=2066759:date=Jan 26 2013, 12:00 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 26 2013, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, that makes more sense. I wasn't considering that it stacks, but I was getting a kill in about 10 seconds, and since bile goes for 5 seconds I was thinking 5 times 2. How many stacks can be active on the EXO at any one time from all gorges? (or is it stacks per gorge?) This is great info btw! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can I just gently say: it's these wild inaccuracies that delegitimise what you say :(.
<!--quoteo(post=2066777:date=Jan 25 2013, 09:40 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 25 2013, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can I just gently say: it's these wild inaccuracies that delegitimise what you say<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wild inaccuracies? I've said all along a gorge can kill an EXO in 10 seconds. My misunderstanding was on how bile stacked on the target. However, as for my point, it still stands. A 10 res lifeform can kill a 75 res EXO in 10 seconds. Which is why beacon is a "gg" as far as EXOs go. Those facts remain constant.
It doesn't matter how many bile bombs it takes if you can kill the EXO in 10 seconds. If it takes two bile bombs or twenty, the bottom line is that in 10 seconds the EXO will be dead.
A marine can kill a fade in about 10 seconds if the fade is dumb enough to get shot and not run away. Lerks are even easier if they aren't moving constantly. Sure it's not 75 res all in one go, but it's still a significant chunk of cash, and of course the basic 0 res marine can kill both if they're sufficiently stupid, doesn't have to be a specialised gorge build. Clearly marines are OP and lerks/fades are completely useless.
If an exo sits there and lets a gorge bile bomb it for 10 seconds without killing the gorge or being repaired then of course it's going to die.
Also the actual kill time is likely to be closer to 15-20 seconds given energy recharge rates for non-adrenaline gorges and the fact that it takes 5 seconds for a bomb to deliver all its damage, and assuming the exosuit is doing SOMETHING to resist you so you miss one or two.
I have a question. Why did they use a 50 res exo instead replacing it with something like a HMG? Too powerful? I just feel marines need a bit more weapon variety late game other than shotgun. Since GL and FT are limited in uses. They could even modify the HMG to fit the game. This would be really neat when matched with fades as I feel the marines are missing something mid game.
<!--quoteo(post=2066842:date=Jan 26 2013, 12:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 26 2013, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If an exo sits there and lets a gorge bile bomb it for 10 seconds without killing the gorge or being repaired then of course it's going to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you're welders get beaconed you can't get repaired now can you? Seeing as the EXO moves at 3.7 and the gorge at 5.1 - the EXO can't get away either. If you have ever played gorge, you know you can hit and hide very easy since the EXO's guns have spin up time and a HUGE spread. Unless the gorge commits suicide, he's not gonna die.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the actual kill time is likely to be closer to 15-20 seconds given energy recharge rates for non-adrenaline gorges and the fact that it takes 5 seconds for a bomb to deliver all its damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. Did you not read what the programmer said? It's not 20 seconds. It's 8-12, and any gorge who will be doing bile bomb will not take celerity. Nice attempt at trying to spin this, but it's not working. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2066872:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:52 AM:name=YMICrazy502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YMICrazy502 @ Jan 26 2013, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066872"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a question. Why did they use a 50 res exo instead replacing it with something like a HMG? Too powerful?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->HMG was removed since it's a flat upgrade. In other words with an HMG the LMG becomes obsolete. Charlie didn't want to have any upgrade nullify another weapon. They could be alternate weapon types, but not straight out upgrades that make another weapon obsolete. While I may not fully agree with it, I can respect his view on this point.
<!--quoteo(post=2065533:date=Jan 23 2013, 06:18 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 23 2013, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All it takes is TWO bile hits and the EXOs are dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two hits versus almost twenty is a <i>truly</i> wild inaccuracy and demonstrates a serious lack of experience and intuition. I think the only reason you weren't called out on it earlier was because it was embedded in your walls of text (I had to ctrl+f). Either way, displaying such drastically askew observations and citing them as part of your arguments does nothing to instill any confidence in the reader, especially when the revelation of such an inaccuracy is batted to one side as insignificant.
<!--quoteo(post=2066885:date=Jan 26 2013, 05:30 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 26 2013, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're welders get beaconed you can't get repaired now can you? Seeing as the EXO moves at 3.7 and the gorge at 5.1 - the EXO can't get away either. If you have ever played gorge, you know you can hit and hide very easy since the EXO's guns have spin up time and a HUGE spread. Unless the gorge commits suicide, he's not gonna die.
No. Did you not read what the programmer said? It's not 20 seconds. It's 8-12, and any gorge who will be doing bile bomb will not take celerity. Nice attempt at trying to spin this, but it's not working. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He said 8 to 12 seconds to <i>unload</i> the required number, not to have them take effect, to take effect would require 13 to 17 seconds in that case, and if the gorge takes celerity rather than adrenaline, he would be slower at firing them, I suspect 8 to 12 is for when you're using adrenaline, as bile bomb uses a lot of energy and you run out fast without it.
Also, the simple solution to the first one is <i>don't beacon away from your exos...</i> If the entire team abandons your exo push, yes, it will fail badly, but that is why you do not do that as a marine team or commander because that would be very bad to do, it would cause you to lose the game and you do not want that because the point of the game is to win the game.
I realise I'm kinda saying it weirdly but you're seriously suggesting that the thing is crippled because it's possible to do monumentally stupid things with it.
Oh and it's quite easy to keep aliens under suppression with the exo, keep alternating between guns and you never have to stop firing, keep aiming where the gorge is hiding and you don't give it a chance to pop out without eating some 25 damage cannon shells to the face. Sure it can keep popping out, but it has to do it much more carefully, it can't simply stand out in the open and fire bile bombs at maximum rate, so again, it's going to be slower than 8 to 12 seconds. Combining that with the 5 seconds to take effect gives you a very conservative estimate of 15-20 seconds, at least.
And this still assumes the exo is completely unsupported and miles away from friendly territory, which it won't be because there's no reason whatsoever that you would leave them like that. You don't do an all in exo push unless you can defend your base well enough to have it succeed, and you don't leave the security of the team as a half competent exo player. Yes a gorge versus an exo given enough time will result in a gorge win, but you solve that by not letting the gorge have enough time alone with the exo.
<!--quoteo(post=2066885:date=Jan 26 2013, 07:30 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 26 2013, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can hit and hide very easy since the EXO's guns have spin up time and a HUGE spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love fighting exos that play like this, it's like an old arcade boss where you gotta wait for the opening.
Personally though I'm not uncomfortable with constantly spamming both mouse buttons, thus keeping the miniguns constantly spinning. :p Reduces the downtime to none-0.3sec.
I never have trouble killing gorges as a dual exo, and I never kill dual exos as a gorge either. :( (But I've only tried that like twice so I've no real say in this topic...)
<!--quoteo(post=2067049:date=Jan 26 2013, 05:15 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 26 2013, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love fighting exos that play like this, it's like an old arcade boss where you gotta wait for the opening.
Personally though I'm not uncomfortable with constantly spamming both mouse buttons, thus keeping the miniguns constantly spinning. :p Reduces the downtime to none-0.3sec.
I never have trouble killing gorges as a dual exo, and I never kill dual exos as a gorge either. :( (But I've only tried that like twice so I've no real say in this topic...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does sort of balance out because it cuts the DPS in half. The main benefit of the dual exo is that it has a terrifying DPS, if they're trying to kill things quickly, they tend to spin up both guns and that gives you your opening. Have an onos around because exos can panic and unload into them quite easily, wait for the onos to get shot some, then rush in when the exo is overheated.
Umm, I'm not sure what you mean, but what I meant is that I keep both guns at near shooting-spin-speed, by pressing m1 & m2 simultaneously every 0.7sec or so?
<!--quoteo(post=2067081:date=Jan 26 2013, 06:30 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 26 2013, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Umm, I'm not sure what you mean, but what I meant is that I keep both guns at near shooting-spin-speed, by pressing m1 & m2 simultaneously every 0.7sec or so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohh that.
I wasn't actually sure if that was a thing to be honest, I kept feeling like it should be but I wasn't sure.
Ehh I'd still say it's a bit of a tradeoff given that they make a noise and it makes it harder to hear things, plus it does require some concentration to be able to do that and walk around and pay attention to everything.
There isn't much you can do with the exo movement wise so I'd say being able to control the guns that finely is a positive in its case. You could perhaps have some variant of the 'lockdown' mode I think that the exo was going to get, whereby you can spin the guns constantly and they get some sort of ROF/cooling boost perhaps? but the exo walks slower and takes a few seconds to start moving properly again. Could make it the exo equivalent of crouching perhaps, if you wanted to expand on the spinning guns mechanic. Not sure if there'd be much call for it though.
<!--quoteo(post=2066980:date=Jan 26 2013, 09:29 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 26 2013, 09:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He said 8 to 12 seconds to <i>unload</i> the required number, not to have them take effect, to take effect would require 13 to 17 seconds in that case, and if the gorge takes celerity rather than adrenaline, he would be slower at firing them, I suspect 8 to 12 is for when you're using adrenaline, as bile bomb uses a lot of energy and you run out fast without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you are going to be facing EXOs, you take adrenaline over celerity. Clearly. As for the time, it's close to 10 seconds for the EXO to be DEAD. Try it yourself if you like. Grab a buddy in explore mode and start spamming. Get a stopwatch and see for yourself. EXOs die fast, really fast. I can't help but wonder if people either: don't play EXO very often, or don't play gorge very often. I've done both and there is no way it takes a gorge ~20 seconds to kill an EXO. Absolutely no way it takes that long.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the simple solution to the first one is <i>don't beacon away from your exos...</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a fallacy and you know it. If the EXOs beaconed with the team, I'd say that you had a point. But they don't. However, because of the silly power node mechanic, all it takes is one skulk to force a beacon. That's why I have said that beacon becomes useless after EXOs leave base since<b> you lose either way</b>. If you beacon to save the base you lose the EXOs. If you don't beacon you lose your base. Either one is a game ender.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and it's quite easy to keep aliens under suppression with the exo, keep alternating between guns and you never have to stop firing, keep aiming where the gorge is hiding and you don't give it a chance to pop out without eating some 25 damage cannon shells to the face.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess you haven't played alien very often against EXO. It's stupidly simple to kill any EXO without welders. So you're gonna lay down suppressing fire huh? Well then, what will happen is that you'll soon be met by a couple skulks that hit from your flank. While you are firing blindly to kill them, a gorge or two will be soaking you in bile. If you kill them all (unlikely) they can still send back more skulks before your welders return. The only time an EXO survives a beacon is when the alien team (en masse) has rushed marine spawn. In that case the game is also over since you only get to send back some marines while your big guns are FAR away. Then you hear the comm begging someone to drop an IP at the second command chair, but no one can - <b>because you can't eject from the freaking EXO</b>.
EXOs are a liability, plain and simple. Once people learn that they are not to be feared, they die really fast. My favourite move? Walking on the ceiling and then hanging off a wall or something, just around head level, as I chomp. His instinct will be to look down, and the extra second or two allows me to get in a few more bites. Then as he pans his guns up I drop the floor and do my skulk LOL dance as I continue to dance around while it's raining bullets everywhere else but where I am. He's dead in 7 seconds. Once he dies, I chuckle secure in the knowledge that with every EXO killed by skulks it just helps to reinforce the imbalance in the game.
It was the same with the early tres Onos egg drop. People kept using it repeatedly until it was balanced out of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2067486:date=Jan 27 2013, 12:20 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 27 2013, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EXOs are a liability, plain and simple. Once people learn that they are not to be feared, they die really fast. My favourite move? Walking on the ceiling and then hanging off a wall or something, just around head level, as I chomp. His instinct will be to look down, and the extra second or two allows me to get in a few more bites. Then as he pans his guns up I drop the floor and do my skulk LOL dance as I continue to dance around while it's raining bullets everywhere else but where I am. He's dead in 7 seconds. Once he dies, I chuckle secure in the knowledge that with every EXO killed by skulks it just helps to reinforce the imbalance in the game.
It was the same with the early tres Onos egg drop. People kept using it repeatedly until it was balanced out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You. I hate skulks like you. Not because I've encountered skulks that do that but because once aliens are skilled enough I know they'll start doing that. And it'll be annoying as ######e since the Exo has no (you're being damaged at this angle) indicator. Personally, I prefer guarding base with Exos. Safer, easier, and prevents gorge I-win buttons.
<!--quoteo(post=2067496:date=Jan 27 2013, 05:52 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 27 2013, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You. I hate skulks like you. Not because I've encountered skulks that do that but because once aliens are skilled enough I know they'll start doing that. And it'll be annoying as ######e since the Exo has no (you're being damaged at this angle) indicator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Heh, well I got burned a couple times, and once I caught the guy doing it I had an 'a-ha' moment since the game was still very new and I had only used the EXO a handful of times. I'm wise to it now, but it doesn't make it any easier to counter since you really need to have eyes in the back of your head. The lack of a damage indicator can be painful though, since I have seen new players (while I was waiting to spawn) and there is a skulk literally standing still behind him with M1 pressed down and I see the EXO looking around in front of himself only to die a few seconds later. You wince and pity the poor guy, hoping that at least he figured out what killed him so he can improve his skill for next time.
I often help many a new alien player when they see EXOs and panic, just by telling them to think of the EXO as an elephant and them as a mouse. The EXO is more scared of you since dying for him is WAY more significant than dying for you. I also remind them it only takes 7 seconds of bite for a kill, after which they say "that's all?" and run off in search of their first EXO solo kill. :D <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I prefer guarding base with Exos. Safer, easier, and prevents gorge I-win buttons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We think alike, because I often do exactly the same thing. We'll have a bunch of people with EXOs and welders and I tell them to go ahead without me. Depending on which tech point I'm at, I'll either perch up high or sit on top of the comm chair. Then I watch my map so I'm not bored to death while the battle rages. Every once in a while an alien tries to pull a fast one, and then when they realize we have an EXO guarding base they usually give up on that. While it's painfully boring gameplay, at least it's better then finding out some lone skulk punched the "I win" power node button (which usually gives no warning) and we hear from the comm that it's GG since power is down and the base is getting rolled.
Comments
Worse still, a lone skulk can often (yes, I mean often...!) take out 2 exos. Assuming the skulk is good and the exos are 'normal pub material.'
Well yeah, but not when they both have full hp, haven't seen that happen befor. I have, however, seen a skulk take down 2 but killed one after a few bites and the other exo was distracted by other aliens and the skulk chomped that one down to.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second
kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode
kBileBombEnergyCost = 20
kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure this is wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You do understand this is from the GAME files right? It's not 'wrong'. This is currently how the game is coded. If you don't believe me, open up the file on your own machine and look.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Corrode damage type only does full damage to buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not fully accurate. Corrode only does ARMOR ONLY damage to NON structures. Guess what? EXOs only have armor. If the EXO had health, you would be right, since bile doesn't affect the health of players. However, the EXO has no health.
Hey, try it out for yourself. Grab a buddy, open an explore mode server, jump in an EXO and have your buddy hit you square on with a single bile bomb. See how much armor you lose after 5 seconds have passed. Then repeat it. Keep doing single bile bombs (with 5+ seconds in between) until the EXO is dead. Come back and let us know how it goes. Let us know how many bile bombs it takes to kill that EXO.
Let's pretend that bile only does 1/5th of the damage that the game files say it does. So instead of 350 armor damage over 5 seconds it's 70 damage over 5 seconds. For a SINGLE gorge to kill an EXO, it would take 8 hits and part of a 9th. So a bit less than 45 seconds. In that time the marines (who beaconed) have to fight the aliens at base, secure the base, phase to the nearest gate, and then run back. It's not gonna happen in 45 seconds unless you happen to be in one of the close pairings like Deposit and Sorting on Mineshaft. Or Flow Control and Pipeline on Refinery. The rest are just too far away.
In any case, the reality is that there isn't just one gorge working on those EXOs, he has his buddies with him. So when they beacon the EXOs are toast. We can debate semantics all you like, but if the alien team can't kill EXOs who have had their welders removed, then they need to learn to play.
That said it does stack nicely with other alien attacks so gorges are, as always, good to bring along with an organised attack. It also has the obscuring view effect and can definitely help to unnerve exosuit players because exosuits tend to be a bit self-preservation oriented, with reason of course, they are a big investment. But bile bomb value is mostly psychological I think.
But yes I'm sure you can kill an exosuit with a gorge if the entire enemy team gets teleported to the other side of the map. I've killed exosuits with a single skulk in similar situations, albeit infrequently. They are not good without support, with support they are extremely effective. Don't put yourself in a situation where your exosuits are without support, same with your forward PGs or your arc trains or your marines in general.
Also from my experience bile bomb does indeed only do 1/5th (or vastly reduced, in any case) damage against players. Try biling some marines in their base. You'll notice that structures take lots of damage but marines will actually only lose a few HP per tick. Of course you can catch a lot of marines in one attack and it really does mess them up for other aliens to take out, but it is a very small amount of damage individually. Exos might take a bit more, but it's still a much smaller amount than structures take, structures can take hundreds of hitpoints of damage from one bile bomb.
In any case, Charlie has said that he doesn't want anything to have a 'hard counter'.
The Onos should not be an "I win" card over an EXO. Just as a fade shouldn't be an "I win" card over a shottie marine.
Your premise is flawed since if a single alien is meant to take on a group of marines, then a group of aliens would be unstoppable. All aliens would need to do would be to group up and that's a win. If it takes two marines to kill one alien, then aliens will always 'out power' the marines.
Sorry, no, that's not how the game was designed. Each class should be able to be counter the other based on their skill and weaponry. EXO should be able to take on an Onos. A shottie wielding marine should be able to take on a fade. With skulks a single marine should be able to take on a single skulk, provided that he is not ambushed. Whether or not the marine wins should come down to player skill, not some arbitrary design that suggests because you happen to be alone you forfeit the battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A single alien isn't meant to take on a group of marines, a group of marines is generally a bit stronger than an individual alien. A large group of marines is probably able to beat a similarly sized group of aliens.
That is the entire point, it's called scaling. Marines scale much better in groups than aliens do, especially when they use all of their tools (which they have a lot of).
Aliens have some interconnecting abilities, lerks can spore, gorges can bile bomb and heal, skulks can parasite I guess. But mostly the benefit of having aliens together is they have a bigger brick of hitpoints and more stabby bits to kill marines with.
Marines on the other hand are completely built around interconnectivity. Marines can combine flamethrowers to shut down aliens, while shotguns take out skulks which rush the group, while exos focus fire on fades and onoses to take them out, and grenade launcher lay down an wall of area explosives while being screened by the frontline troops, all marines can weld each other and a steady stream of medpacks from the commander will allow marines to rotate in and out of the frontline, allowing the whole group to keep rolling. This even extends down to the basic fundamentals of each team, where aliens durability is based heavily on moving and dodging, which becomes automatically harder the more bullets are flying and the more people are aiming in your general area. Marines automatically gain an advantage from groups because of more lead in the air, while aliens simply attract more gunfire and make it more likely that <i>somebody</i> is going to get shot.
Every alien except possibly the gorge is a combatant in its own right, but almost all of the marine upgrades except the jetpack and the shotgun are based around teamwork, working with other marines to cover your weaknesses while displaying your strengths. That is how it was in NS2 except, interestingly, for the HMG, which was just the 'get this and be universally better than everything except for one GL dude'. That, as far as I know, was why it was removed, and that is also why I'm rather glad it was removed.
Perhaps a picture will help. Marines are the curvy line, aliens are the straight lines. Aliens start out better but grouping helps them less, marines start out worse but get much much better when they group up:
<img src="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~afra/courses/4/x10/notes/17/linear.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As for exos, the key to becoming skilled with it is learning to overcome the multitude of HUD-obscuring effects that go with it (think minigun firing smoke, HUD targeting popups, etc). After that, you need to know how to prioritize targets. My personal list goes something like this
1. Gorges
2. Onos
3. Skulks
4. Hydras
5. Whips
6. Upgrade structures (veils, spurs, shells)
7. Support structures (crags, shifts, shades)
8. Hives
9. RTs
10. Fades and lerks
The final thing you need to learn is to never push forward without support (either MACs or welding marines), to make keeping those supporting units/players alive the next most important priority after keeping yourself alive, and knowing when and how to retreat.
In a game built around player balance, if 8 alien players are not equivalent to 8 marine players, then you have a broken game. Period. Now as for the <i><b>CHOICES </b></i>those 8 players make, that's a whole other ball game. If you have 8 players who make choices that put them at a disadvantage compared to the choices made by the 8 opponents, then those 8 players are in for problems. Simple example, if you have 8 marines that choose grenade launchers, they're gonna get rolled since they have no means to address threats in close, and aliens are an 'in close' opponent. This is a losing tactical choice for marines.
Let's be clear here... I'm not suggesting that teamwork isn't a factor in successful gameplay. This is not a simple FPS where it is every man for himself nor have I ever suggested it is or should be. I'm with you if what you are suggesting is that you may need to have 3 marines in a group to take on one skulk *IF* that is because two of the marines are carrying weapons that don't lend itself to defending against that skulk. (like GLs)
However, so long as one of those 3 marines has an appropriate 'counter' weapon (like a shottie), then he should NOT need the assistance of the other 2 marines to kill the one skulk. He should be able to survive **one-on-one** versus that skulk. The battle should fall to the better skilled of the two players, not to the marines because there are three of them. See where I'm coming from here? It shouldn't take three marines to kill one skulk, but you might need three marines together to have the necessary marine available to counter that skulk.
I'm all for different weapons being needed to address different threats, but in any given situation *IF* you have the right 'counter', you should be competitive one-on-one.
This is why I object to the fact that a single skulk can easily solo an EXO while a marine can't do the same to an Onos. The EXO has certain aspects that give it a disadvantage against a SINGLE stock opponent, which the Onos has none. The Onos can be threatened significantly by 5 marines with weapons 5 LMGs, just as an EXO can be threatened significantly by 5 skulks with carapace. Yet as the number of opponents drops, the threat to the Onos drops. For the EXO it does not. A single skulk is just as deadly as 5 skulks. That's the disparity here.
It's also why I have problems with a single EXO losing a battle with a single Onos. Again, while I acknowledge that these two aren't meant to be meeting each other alone in a dark hallway to do battle - <i>should</i> they encounter each other, their survival should be based on their own skill. (with all things equal, both having armor upgrades for example) At present, since there is massive muzzle flash and the Onos model actually clips OVER the EXO, you have a player who sees nothing but the INSIDE of the Onos model. When this happens skill is immediately removed as a factor in the battle. It comes down to luck and whether the EXO can blindly follow the movements of the Onos. I've actually started opening the MAP to see the Onos and his orientation. I'm sorry, but that is a broken game mechanic. The reason the Onos clips through the EXO has nothing to do with the EXO, but has to do with preventing the Onos from getting stuck in tights places. Yet this alteration of the game mechanic for the Onos has given the EXO a disadvantage because of it. Since the Onos clips through the EXO, a large chunk of his model **and hitbox** are now not attackable by the EXO or marines that are nearby.
Then you can the matter of the EXO being the ONLY UNIT IN THE GAME that is armor only. Even the ARC and MAC (which are both just hunks of metal) have health. The EXO is armor only, and that too is unbalanced. At the very least the EXO should carry the marine's 100 health with him into the EXO. Adjust the armor if you must, but no EXO should fall to bile alone.
And yes, those severely damage game balance from game to game, in that a game will often go completely one way or the other due to lack of teamwork on marines or lack of distribution on aliens (though aliens are a bit more intuitive in that sense because 'run off and do your own thing as far away from everyone else as you can' is actually kinda good play for aliens). But it's evident in your suggested strategies too, you're always answering a marine strategy that amounts to 'ball up together and make a big murderstack of doom', and your response is always 'aliens split into two, one holds, the other rushes the marine base'. The ENTIRE GAME is arguably a war between focus and distribution. And because the two teams are so unevenly matched, the response to the other team playing their strong hand is to play yours, which rarely involves meeting the enemy head on. Your criticism of the exo is that it doesn't work when the marines are split away from it, and that it doesn't work when the aliens choose to split up and attack everywhere. The alien strength is in splitting up, while the marine strength is in bunching up and working as a tight group.
The thing is though, the game works. It really does work, even in spite of the glaringly obvious theoretical problems with the scaling model. You'd think the liner vs quadratic scaling would be completely busted because unless you're at the very small point on the graph where the two lines intersect, one team is going to be massively better than the other, and a lot of the time that does happen, but it just doesn't matter. That the scaling model is a thing is certainly evident because of the fact that games are supposed to be played with a specific number of players (I think it's 6v6?) if you get more than that, marines do better, and less, aliens do better. Why would that be the case if teamwork based scaling wasn't different for each team?
I would almost say the point of the game has nothing to do with balance, though balance is often fairly close to 50/50 even so. For competition certainly it matters little if one side is harder than the other because competitive games are always played in pairs with swapped teams, so both teams have to do well with both sides. For public play, I would suggest that the fun comes from just playing around with all the mechanics rather than a perfectly rational win rate.
Regardless of the theoretical problems, the game still revolves sufficiently around player skill, both organisationally and in a more traditional FPS skill sense, that teams of 'good' players will win more. There is also a decent bit of variety in what you can do during the course of a game, each game tends to play out differently due to different starts and chaotic events causing different areas to be lost and won, different techs to be favored or ignored, and different fights with different competitors going different ways. If an exo and an onos meet in a hallway, the exo is an idiot for running around without marine support when onoses are in the field. Victory or loss is determined by their skill, it's just the skill of the onos for getting into an unexpected place, or the exo for making a terrible decision. If an exo and a fade meet in a hallway, it is decided by FPS skills, people have pointed out that skulks can take out exos if the player in the exo is bad enough or the skulk is good enough, that's entirely based on FPS skill. Onoses are just more of an organisational challenge than an FPS one. They can be beaten back with good organisation on the marine team, just as teamed exos and pushes are beaten by better 'organisation' on the alien team in the form of orchestrating a very decentralised counterattack.
Essentially, the game does not, theoretically, make perfect sense. Theoretically, you may expect it to completely suck as a game, but evidence suggests that it isn't the case. Evidently, the game is actually a lot of fun and can be played and enjoyed by a lot of different player types, and that includes plenty of people finding plenty of use for exos. Certainly I gauge the measure of success in a pub game by how many exos we can field quickly. If we can field a few, we can do some good with them. If we lose them, we generally lose ground because of that. That alone suggests that exos are a very important unit to marines, in a very sizable section of games played.
Theory and practice are different things.
Corrode does normal damage to armor only, so each point of armor still absorbs 2 points of corrode damage. So multiply by two, you end up with 17 bilebombs to kill an A3 Exo.
-Does bile do 70 damage per second with a 5 second duration as noted in balance.lua? (350 damage total over 5 seconds)
-Does bile do DOUBLE damage to structure armor? (700 damage total over 5 seconds)
-Does bile from different gorges stack? Is it supposed to stack?
-How much damage should one direct hit bile bomb do to A3 EXO armor after 5 seconds?
-How much damage should one direct hit bile bomb do to A3 marine armor after 5 seconds?
I'm actually very intrigued by this revelation, since this may have revealed a reason why EXOs are dying so fast. Perhaps the EXO isn't getting the benefit of 2 points absorption for each point of armor.
Bilebomb stacks, both your own and anyone elses. So no need to wait between them. I think you can expect to unload the required bilebombs in about 8-12 seconds, if you got adrenaline or a shift recharge.
And you can try it out. Start a server, "cheats 1" and "autobuild" in console, "j2", drop an extra hive, research bilebomb, "rr", "j1" to shift to marines, drop armory/armslab, research A3 ("tres" to get more team res"), "give exo" to drop an exo, "rr" "j2", evolve gorge, move to the exo, bile it and count the number of bilebombs you need.
I counted 19, I think Exos has gotten a 100 pts extra armor a couple of patches ago IIRC.
Can I just gently say: it's these wild inaccuracies that delegitimise what you say :(.
Someone needs to dig out teh ancient patch notes if we wanna find out. :|
It doesn't matter how many bile bombs it takes if you can kill the EXO in 10 seconds. If it takes two bile bombs or twenty, the bottom line is that in 10 seconds the EXO will be dead.
If an exo sits there and lets a gorge bile bomb it for 10 seconds without killing the gorge or being repaired then of course it's going to die.
Also the actual kill time is likely to be closer to 15-20 seconds given energy recharge rates for non-adrenaline gorges and the fact that it takes 5 seconds for a bomb to deliver all its damage, and assuming the exosuit is doing SOMETHING to resist you so you miss one or two.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the actual kill time is likely to be closer to 15-20 seconds given energy recharge rates for non-adrenaline gorges and the fact that it takes 5 seconds for a bomb to deliver all its damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. Did you not read what the programmer said? It's not 20 seconds. It's 8-12, and any gorge who will be doing bile bomb will not take celerity. Nice attempt at trying to spin this, but it's not working. :)
Two hits versus almost twenty is a <i>truly</i> wild inaccuracy and demonstrates a serious lack of experience and intuition. I think the only reason you weren't called out on it earlier was because it was embedded in your walls of text (I had to ctrl+f). Either way, displaying such drastically askew observations and citing them as part of your arguments does nothing to instill any confidence in the reader, especially when the revelation of such an inaccuracy is batted to one side as insignificant.
No. Did you not read what the programmer said? It's not 20 seconds. It's 8-12, and any gorge who will be doing bile bomb will not take celerity. Nice attempt at trying to spin this, but it's not working. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He said 8 to 12 seconds to <i>unload</i> the required number, not to have them take effect, to take effect would require 13 to 17 seconds in that case, and if the gorge takes celerity rather than adrenaline, he would be slower at firing them, I suspect 8 to 12 is for when you're using adrenaline, as bile bomb uses a lot of energy and you run out fast without it.
Also, the simple solution to the first one is <i>don't beacon away from your exos...</i> If the entire team abandons your exo push, yes, it will fail badly, but that is why you do not do that as a marine team or commander because that would be very bad to do, it would cause you to lose the game and you do not want that because the point of the game is to win the game.
I realise I'm kinda saying it weirdly but you're seriously suggesting that the thing is crippled because it's possible to do monumentally stupid things with it.
Oh and it's quite easy to keep aliens under suppression with the exo, keep alternating between guns and you never have to stop firing, keep aiming where the gorge is hiding and you don't give it a chance to pop out without eating some 25 damage cannon shells to the face. Sure it can keep popping out, but it has to do it much more carefully, it can't simply stand out in the open and fire bile bombs at maximum rate, so again, it's going to be slower than 8 to 12 seconds. Combining that with the 5 seconds to take effect gives you a very conservative estimate of 15-20 seconds, at least.
And this still assumes the exo is completely unsupported and miles away from friendly territory, which it won't be because there's no reason whatsoever that you would leave them like that. You don't do an all in exo push unless you can defend your base well enough to have it succeed, and you don't leave the security of the team as a half competent exo player. Yes a gorge versus an exo given enough time will result in a gorge win, but you solve that by not letting the gorge have enough time alone with the exo.
I love fighting exos that play like this, it's like an old arcade boss where you gotta wait for the opening.
Personally though I'm not uncomfortable with constantly spamming both mouse buttons, thus keeping the miniguns constantly spinning. :p Reduces the downtime to none-0.3sec.
I never have trouble killing gorges as a dual exo, and I never kill dual exos as a gorge either. :( (But I've only tried that like twice so I've no real say in this topic...)
Personally though I'm not uncomfortable with constantly spamming both mouse buttons, thus keeping the miniguns constantly spinning. :p Reduces the downtime to none-0.3sec.
I never have trouble killing gorges as a dual exo, and I never kill dual exos as a gorge either. :( (But I've only tried that like twice so I've no real say in this topic...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does sort of balance out because it cuts the DPS in half. The main benefit of the dual exo is that it has a terrifying DPS, if they're trying to kill things quickly, they tend to spin up both guns and that gives you your opening. Have an onos around because exos can panic and unload into them quite easily, wait for the onos to get shot some, then rush in when the exo is overheated.
Ohh that.
I wasn't actually sure if that was a thing to be honest, I kept feeling like it should be but I wasn't sure.
Ehh I'd still say it's a bit of a tradeoff given that they make a noise and it makes it harder to hear things, plus it does require some concentration to be able to do that and walk around and pay attention to everything.
There isn't much you can do with the exo movement wise so I'd say being able to control the guns that finely is a positive in its case. You could perhaps have some variant of the 'lockdown' mode I think that the exo was going to get, whereby you can spin the guns constantly and they get some sort of ROF/cooling boost perhaps? but the exo walks slower and takes a few seconds to start moving properly again. Could make it the exo equivalent of crouching perhaps, if you wanted to expand on the spinning guns mechanic. Not sure if there'd be much call for it though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the simple solution to the first one is <i>don't beacon away from your exos...</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a fallacy and you know it. If the EXOs beaconed with the team, I'd say that you had a point. But they don't. However, because of the silly power node mechanic, all it takes is one skulk to force a beacon. That's why I have said that beacon becomes useless after EXOs leave base since<b> you lose either way</b>. If you beacon to save the base you lose the EXOs. If you don't beacon you lose your base. Either one is a game ender.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and it's quite easy to keep aliens under suppression with the exo, keep alternating between guns and you never have to stop firing, keep aiming where the gorge is hiding and you don't give it a chance to pop out without eating some 25 damage cannon shells to the face.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess you haven't played alien very often against EXO. It's stupidly simple to kill any EXO without welders. So you're gonna lay down suppressing fire huh? Well then, what will happen is that you'll soon be met by a couple skulks that hit from your flank. While you are firing blindly to kill them, a gorge or two will be soaking you in bile. If you kill them all (unlikely) they can still send back more skulks before your welders return. The only time an EXO survives a beacon is when the alien team (en masse) has rushed marine spawn. In that case the game is also over since you only get to send back some marines while your big guns are FAR away. Then you hear the comm begging someone to drop an IP at the second command chair, but no one can - <b>because you can't eject from the freaking EXO</b>.
EXOs are a liability, plain and simple. Once people learn that they are not to be feared, they die really fast. My favourite move? Walking on the ceiling and then hanging off a wall or something, just around head level, as I chomp. His instinct will be to look down, and the extra second or two allows me to get in a few more bites. Then as he pans his guns up I drop the floor and do my skulk LOL dance as I continue to dance around while it's raining bullets everywhere else but where I am. He's dead in 7 seconds. Once he dies, I chuckle secure in the knowledge that with every EXO killed by skulks it just helps to reinforce the imbalance in the game.
It was the same with the early tres Onos egg drop. People kept using it repeatedly until it was balanced out of the game.
It was the same with the early tres Onos egg drop. People kept using it repeatedly until it was balanced out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You. I hate skulks like you. Not because I've encountered skulks that do that but because once aliens are skilled enough I know they'll start doing that. And it'll be annoying as ######e since the Exo has no (you're being damaged at this angle) indicator. Personally, I prefer guarding base with Exos. Safer, easier, and prevents gorge I-win buttons.
I often help many a new alien player when they see EXOs and panic, just by telling them to think of the EXO as an elephant and them as a mouse. The EXO is more scared of you since dying for him is WAY more significant than dying for you. I also remind them it only takes 7 seconds of bite for a kill, after which they say "that's all?" and run off in search of their first EXO solo kill. :D
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I prefer guarding base with Exos. Safer, easier, and prevents gorge I-win buttons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We think alike, because I often do exactly the same thing. We'll have a bunch of people with EXOs and welders and I tell them to go ahead without me. Depending on which tech point I'm at, I'll either perch up high or sit on top of the comm chair. Then I watch my map so I'm not bored to death while the battle rages. Every once in a while an alien tries to pull a fast one, and then when they realize we have an EXO guarding base they usually give up on that. While it's painfully boring gameplay, at least it's better then finding out some lone skulk punched the "I win" power node button (which usually gives no warning) and we hear from the comm that it's GG since power is down and the base is getting rolled.