<!--quoteo(post=2061319:date=Jan 16 2013, 07:02 AM:name=Rich_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rich_ @ Jan 16 2013, 07:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->exo is very good if you and your teamates know how to play as a team. exo is very bad if you think this is call of dooty with alien zombies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That same team will perform better, faster, and more cheaply in Jetpacks.
<!--quoteo(post=2062695:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:49 AM:name=TripleZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TripleZero @ Jan 18 2013, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->considering theres nanites everywhere in ns2 universe anyway. why not give the exos an out of combat auto repair?
Like regen for the aliens, just slower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm..
How about we tie this to power nodes?
An (1) EXO can Use the power node to repair armor, but has to be facing it and holding the use key?
Exoskeleton suits aren't necessarily completely terrible, they are immense weapon platforms that can demolish hives and enemy Onii very effectively and quickly, when supported of course, and that's really the only issue with their concept, they require other people to dedicate their time to you to make you effective, in the same way as arcs, and they are considerably less mobile, so usually it is better to purchase every assistance you can for your marines on the ground first, and then roll out the exos when they can supported most effectively with W3/A3, and jetpacks,
By themselves exosuits are a terribly weak pushing tool which can be destroyed by coordinted skulks and gorges very easily, but with teamwork exosuits are the definition of pushing potiential and are the most powerful resource in the game when supported properly.
<!--quoteo(post=2062894:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:52 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 18 2013, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An (1) EXO can Use the power node to repair armor, but has to be facing it and holding the use key?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's a great start, but there is so much more that has to be addressed.
For one, while I agree that an EXO shouldn't be allowed to use a phase gate, he should beacon with the rest of the team. Otherwise aliens can simply abandon the hive that is (soon to be) attacked and attack marine spawn. If they succeed they win the game, (since ever if marines have a second comm chair the game is effectively over) if the marines beacon and save marine start they lose the EXOs, which also loses them the game. So it's a no-win scenario. Allowing the EXOs to beacon removes the EXOs from the front line and gives them a VERY LONG walk back. In that time the aliens are able to easily regroup. Beacon shouldn't be a 'forfeit' button like it is now.
The second point is that the EXO needs to be able to see what it is firing at. Melee range combat is a joke, since you can't see squat. I've actually started opening the MAP so I could actually see where an Onos was with respect to my position since the view-screen was a mess of muzzle-flash, Onos flesh and blood splatter. If a person has to open their map to get a better view of what is right in front of them, something is seriously wrong. Give the EXO some way to see what he is shooting.
The third point is that the EXO needs to have HEALTH, not just armor. Even ARCs - which are rolling tanks - have 'health'. Give the EXO the 100 health that the marine has. (If people throw a QQ tantrum you can take off 25 armor to 'balance' it, despite it being weak already.) Anyway, with the 100 health the EXO can't be soloed by gorges. It can be seriously damaged, but not killed with an AOE DOT that can be fired from outside line of sight.
One other thing I would like to see once Onos have the ability to bash open welded doors is to have the EXO able to walk through and destroy clogged doors/passages. (as well as killing cysts they walk over)
Start with that, and see where it leaves us.
People say EXOs are powerful in large groups, and in a 12v12 game if you have 8 EXOs rolling to a hive you have problems. The problem is that the game was never balanced to have that many EXOs on the field at once. (same for Onos.) If it has to be done for sake of balance, perhaps they need to limit the number of active EXO/Onos on the map at any one time. I'd rather that then have a weak and useless EXOsuit that is more a liability than anything.
What an exo does is basically the role of tank. When you have an all jetpack push it might not be easy for the aliens to KILL, but it's very easily dispersed because that's how JPs react to threats. The Exo forces the aliens to focus on a strong point or die, and with the supporting marines (welders) it is a VERY strong point, and it also helps keep the marine force coherent in the face of a counterattack.
<!--quoteo(post=2062916:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People say EXOs are powerful in large groups, and in a 12v12 game <b>if you have 8 EXOs rolling to a hive </b>you have problems. The problem is that the game was never balanced to have that many EXOs on the field at once. (same for Onos.) If it has to be done for sake of balance, perhaps they need to limit the number of active EXO/Onos on the map at any one time. I'd rather that then have a weak and useless EXOsuit that is more a liability than anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sad thing is that if I saw that, that'd be a dinnerbell to a good alien team. That's several surprise gorge bilebombs away from a waste of 75 * 8 res. It's also a guaranteed power node snipe since either it's 8 v 3marines in their base, or it's 8 vs 0 if the exos are supported (I assume some aliens are keeping the slow exos distracted so it's not 11 aliens v x marines).
Compare that to 8 Onos and it's a joke. Marines can't win versus 8 onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2062928:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:55 PM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 18 2013, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What an exo does is basically the role of tank.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's really not though. The 'tank' is the ARC. Could a real life tank be killed by some guy with a machine-gun? Of course not. Yet I can kill an EXO as a skulk in under 7 seconds. That's not a tank, that's a tinder box.
Let's be clear about something. I'm fine if the developers want to designate the EXO a 'support' unit that is designed to sit in base on defence like a fancy sentry gun. While it may not be a very fun role to play, at least its abilities would match its role.
On the other hand, if the EXO is meant to be an assault class, then it needs to stop being a liability to the team every time it leaves base.
I can understand why they didn't want to have EXOs beaconing - since it means that any time the aliens attack the marines can bring back a defensive force that could most likely overcome the attack. In theory it makes it impossible to take a marine base if they can bring back all their EXOs at a moments notice.
I get that.
Here's the thing. EXOs move very slow. Marines will have more than one base. Distress beacon costs 15 res a pop. And killing the power node or observatory will prevent it. So aliens could hit one base, flee when they hear the beacon sound and rush to the second one. If marines beacon there, flee again. While marines are wasting 15 res a pop on beacon, your skulks should be out killing every single res node the marines have outside base. If you play your cards right you soon have a marine team with no res to beacon and EXOs that are stuck on one base.
Having the EXOs beacon with the team means that the marines are able to salvage a chance to win if they have to beacon. As it stands now beacon is basically a concede button.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
the problem with exos isn't exos themselves, it's the fact people "ERMAGHERD ECKSO" and think it's a game winning tool, it's a support weapon, and when used as such, only then is it at it's full potential.
<!--quoteo(post=2062970:date=Jan 18 2013, 06:22 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's really not though. The 'tank' is the ARC. Could a real life tank be killed by some guy with a machine-gun? Of course not. Yet I can kill an EXO as a skulk in under 7 seconds. That's not a tank, that's a tinder box.
Let's be clear about something. I'm fine if the developers want to designate the EXO a 'support' unit that is designed to sit in base on defence like a fancy sentry gun. While it may not be a very fun role to play, at least its abilities would match its role.
On the other hand, if the EXO is meant to be an assault class, then it needs to stop being a liability to the team every time it leaves base.
I can understand why they didn't want to have EXOs beaconing - since it means that any time the aliens attack the marines can bring back a defensive force that could most likely overcome the attack. In theory it makes it impossible to take a marine base if they can bring back all their EXOs at a moments notice.
I get that.
Here's the thing. EXOs move very slow. Marines will have more than one base. Distress beacon costs 15 res a pop. And killing the power node or observatory will prevent it. So aliens could hit one base, flee when they hear the beacon sound and rush to the second one. If marines beacon there, flee again. While marines are wasting 15 res a pop on beacon, your skulks should be out killing every single res node the marines have outside base. If you play your cards right you soon have a marine team with no res to beacon and EXOs that are stuck on one base.
Having the EXOs beacon with the team means that the marines are able to salvage a chance to win if they have to beacon. As it stands now beacon is basically a concede button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mean a tank like a main battle tank, I mean a tank like a player role, you have supports, tanks, damage dealers that sort of thing. The Exo changes the marines group dynamic drastically by providing that tank role. Arcs don't come anywhere near providing that role because they don't provide a direct threat to the aliens themselves, they can easily be dealt with after the marines defending them in most cases. No threat no tank, no matter how beefy you are.
A tank class in an MMO for example is going to die in seconds if he doesn't have healers supporting him. It's not because he's weak though, it's because he is taking that much damage. Without that tank the group stands absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything because no one else can survive that kind of punishment even with all the support in the world. I wouldn't say marines have absolutely no chance here without an exo to provide that role, but they definitely push better with than without.
I mostly agree with what people are saying, especially Savant who lays the information out neatly. The EXOs do need some major improvements, it could be argued they do not need to be more deadly, that is up for debate - however to me the thing that needs to change MOST is the game ending situation of when the main base is wiped out and the roaming exos are now useless, as they cannot repair, rebuild, or get in the comm chair! How stupid is that! At the LEAST you should be able to temporarily exit your suit to build / repair.. that would solve it.
Or how about the single Exo? They are agreeably a total waste of res, the single mini does not do crap for damage to validate the 50 res. But perhaps if the single exo could be the welder role and be able to 'remote control' the comm chair in emergency situations, that would not only make it 'worth' the 50 res but resolve the problem of having 5 marines in exos and no base and no way to build / repair anything.
Perhaps if the punching hand could be cycled through different things, like it could be upgraded to get a welder, flamethrower, grenade launcher, etc.. so by the time you upgrade it with a few weapons and a welder, its now just as expensive as the dual mini, if not more expensive - but is actually USEFUL to the marine team!
<!--quoteo(post=2064231:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:28 PM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 21 2013, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mean a tank like a main battle tank, I mean a tank like a player role, you have supports, tanks, damage dealers that sort of thing. ... A tank class in an MMO for example is going to die in seconds if he doesn't have healers supporting him. It's not because he's weak though, it's because he is taking that much damage. Without that tank the group stands absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything because no one else can survive that kind of punishment even with all the support in the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Two problems here. This isn't an MMO and marines don't have a 'heal' class. (Marines running around with welders out is NOT a heal class.) The gorge is a heal class by nature of its improved health/armor and strong heal ability. The closest to a 'healer' class for the marines would be a MAC, but they are completely pathetic. One, and I mean ONE bile bomb will kill any MAC.
The EXO is *still* not a tank class though, since tank classes have a large health pool. Look at the Onos. Now *that* is a tank.
An Onos has 1300 health and 900 armor with carapace. Against a marine's LMG, since each point of armor will absorb 2 points of damage, it means the Onos effective health is a whopping 3100 hit points. With 13 points per bullet, if the marine connects with all of his bullets, he'll do 650 points of damage in one clip, which takes about 5 seconds to fire. For that solo marine to kill the Onos with his assault rifle, he'll need to dump FOUR FULL CLIPS of bullets into the Onos, and then 37 of his last 50 bullets. The marine will need to have an accuracy level of 94.8% or greater, since if he misses with more than 13 bullets, he won't have enough bullets in his gun to make the kill. Of course this assumes the marine would still be alive. The amount of time it would take to fire all those bullets would be 25 seconds, plus time to reload between clips. IIRC the reload is a little over 2 seconds, let's call it 2 for sake or arguement, that brings this to 33 seconds in total. In that time the Onos would only need to land TWO attacks to kill the marine. Two marines isn't much better. They would need to get two full clips in, and somehow get part of a third clip in. The ~15 seconds that would take would give the Onos more than enough time to kill them both. Three marines? Still need a reload, and ~10 seconds of life. It would take FOUR marines firing with 100% accuracy on the Onos to kill it in the same amount of time it would take ONE skulk to kill an EXOsuit.
Let's look at the EXO.
A skulk can do 166.66 DPS of 'normal' damage, which means each armor point absorbs 2 points of damage. With 580 armor, that means the effective health of either the 50 or 75 res EXOsuit is 1160 versus the skulk's bite. With the fire key pressed down, a single skulk can kill an EXOsuit in only 7 seconds. If there are two skulks that drops to 3.5 seconds needed to destroy the 'ultimate' marine weapon. That's a tank?
What about welders you say? Well, a welder can heal 25 DPS for EXOs, and a skulk can do 166.66 DPS. We all know how that's gonna end. (Assuming the welder lives) Oh did I mention that the weld rate for an EXO is actually SLOWER than for a stock marine? (marines get welded at 30 per second.) How about the marine 'heal class' - the MAC? Well it will weld an EXO for a 'astonishing' 12.5 a second.
How much will a gorge heal on an Onos? That would be 58.75 DPS. It heals in ALL directions, on as MANY friendlies there are in a 3.5 unit range. Now *that* my dear friend is a heal class.
The welder works on ONE target, 25 DPS, and must be in melee range.
Sorry, but the EXO isn't a tank, it's a tinderbox. It's a liability on the battlefield, and gives the aliens a free 'I win' button when they make the marines beacon. There is nothing about the EXO that is at all a positive. Even its damage is mediocre since bullet spread means you need to be on top of what you want to hit. It's completely counter-intuitive. The principle of the marine is that its advantage is the ability to shoot from range. However - despite the massive amount of damage the EXO spits out - the wide bullet range means that you have no such advantage. In fact, if an EXO is facing an Onos, firing from range is a sure fire way to die. Your guns will overheat and the Onos will roll you. As it stands killing an Onos takes blind luck anyway, since the Onos model will clip OVER your model, meaning you can see NOTHING.
How is this a tank again?
If anything marines need to DEFEND the EXO, when it should be the other way around. That's not a tank, that's a liability.
mostly agree on anything. If any comparison to MMO style classes can be made, the EXO actually is a Damage Dealer.
Savant is completely right about how risky a EXO is in terms of accuracy/Minigun spin-up time BUT for the short period in which you can sustain fire, your DPS is big bada######ingboom. 3 EXOs in a strategically good spot with some welder support will hold down a whole Alien team. Some anecdotal evidence: Yesterday I played Alien on Veil. We had Sub, Cargo and Dres at the beginning. So basically we had the advantage. Problem was that marines had good teamplay and quick jetpacks which denied us from taking Pipe quick enough. So after some back and forth we got Pipe cleared out with our first two oni just to loose it to their last-minute EXO team. After that we had some 10 minutes of stalemate until marines started to very slowly push the corridor from Dome to Cargo. It took them like 10 minutes to advance the 20 meters to the Cargo entrance, but we had no chance tho hold them out of the corridor, because as you know, it's a very bad spot for oni to attack By the time they were in front of the entrance we had 3 Gorges biling into the Hallway, 3 Oni that NON-Stop made Hit and run attempts into the corridor and some whips/crags/shifts between the hive and door. Of course marines could not get INSIDE Cargo but alsow we could not get inside the corridor. So they just slowly slowly got more and more ARCs and started to kill off our buildings. When I ran in as a Onos I could attack the closes ARC ONCE before retreating and reaching the Hive with about 300 HP. We attacked with 3 Oni at once while Gorges were biling, but we managed nothing but to kill of 2 or 3 Arcs which were replaced again. It was just impossible to even reach the exos. I think this is a good example how to use Exos: They are a great Attack/Defense unit if they manage to get into a position where they can only be attacked from one direction and get support by one JP per Exo. They just have to cover the ARCs to get the Whips down and then comes the GL spam which covers them against Gorges. THEM is the time the Exos actually can assault AFTER the JPs. Also, it is very clear, that we would have won very easily if the EXOs at ANY point would have decided to rush in. With 3 Onos and 3 Groges even 6 Exos would have been massacred once they entered Cargo.
The EXO is kinda like a siege Tank in SC2. If you hit him out of position he will not perform too god despite still having good DPS. IF you get them into a sweet spot and sieged up they will murder anything that comes their way.
Problem is that most people in NS2 don't have this positional awareness with Exos (yet).
<!--quoteo(post=2064360:date=Jan 21 2013, 04:45 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 21 2013, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Savant is completely right about how risky a EXO is in terms of accuracy/Minigun spin-up time BUT for the short period in which you can sustain fire, your DPS is big bada######ingboom. 3 EXOs in a strategically good spot with some welder support will hold down a whole Alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->With all due respect, the reason for your failure on aliens was not because of the EXO, it was because instead of your Onos playing cat and mouse with the EXOs you should have sent your three Onos to their spawn and forced a beacon. Then when the welders are gone you hit them with bile and bye-bye EXOs. (only takes two bile bombs - 5 seconds apart - to kill all EXOs)
If your three Onos hit the power node in marine start, when the marines beacon you run since the power wasn't taken out fast enough. (If it was - gg - power node equals "aliens win" button.) If you were unable to take out the power, then you should still be able to get some of the EXOs. Even if you have a skulk go gorge in behind them, you just need TWO bile bombs, 5 seconds apart. When the marines get back there are no EXOs. Once your Onos get back, bye-bye forward base. Then you press on to pipeline, rinse and repeat.
Your tactical error was trying to defend when the alien team wins with aggression. When marines attack you should be attacking where they are NOT. You have the speed and power to do so, and it wins games all the time.
Has anyone tried the defensive Exo? In Pubs, once I know 2/10 people have gone Exos or are jetpack rushing a hive and our team is making a push, I specifically stay at main base and guard the power. Yes, it isn't the best use of pres 75 but I find it's a good deterrent to all but onos-supported power-node snipes (which I can basically guarantee will be attempted by a good alien team)
Nah it's a good strat. My biggest annoyance in pubs is when exos push out and the ENTIRE team leaves with them. Then SURPRISE 2 Onos + Gorges attack the faraway main base and no one responds. It's pathetic I mean I always hope 1-2 people have the common sense to stay guarding but no everyone needs to be on the front line. If I ever get an exo for fun I always stay behind while the other exos do whatever. And lo and behold while I hide out of sight an onos or gorge usually makes their way into the unguarded bases and dies as soon as I come out and shoot them. That or I find the highest ground possible where Onos cannot reach me easily in case more than 1 comes in. But the thing is if you as an exo do not push out, sometimes your team will turtle too since people like being near exos I guess?
<!--quoteo(post=2064567:date=Jan 21 2013, 10:40 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 21 2013, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has anyone tried the defensive Exo? In Pubs, once I know 2/10 people have gone Exos or are jetpack rushing a hive and our team is making a push, I specifically stay at main base and guard the power. Yes, it isn't the best use of pres 75<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I do this in certain circumstances, as it does what it intends to do - which is to prevent a rush on main base. One problem though...
What usually happens is that as the assault team is lumbering towards a hive, the aliens will try and hit marine start. When they get splattered with bullets they retreat and then head to our *second* tech point, which is undefended. So that tech point will either fall, or the team beacons there and the assault EXOs get rolled. Either way the end result is a turtle with my EXO sitting in main base waiting for the aliens to get their act together and end it.
<!--quoteo(post=2064590:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:23 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 21 2013, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do this in certain circumstances, as it does what it intends to do - which is to prevent a rush on main base. One problem though...
What usually happens is that as the assault team is lumbering towards a hive, the aliens will try and hit marine start. When they get splattered with bullets they retreat and then head to our *second* tech point, which is undefended. So that tech point will either fall, or the team beacons there and the assault EXOs get rolled. Either way the end result is a turtle with my EXO sitting in main base waiting for the aliens to get their act together and end it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but in those circumstances (depending on how your tech structures is laid out) a base trade might be worth it. Main base IS where your tech will be 90% of the time. Losing a second base (which is the CC, PG, Armory and RT) could be worth it if it keeps the aliens down at two hives/minus all their upgrades and your assault team capitalizes on the momentum. It really depends.
Very rarely do I find marines benefit from a tech point trade. The reason being is that the marines second tech point is almost always the closest tech point to marine start. So while the marines get a second tech point across the map, the aliens now have a staging point near the marine start and are able to constantly harass main base. While that happens the aliens can usually recap the killed hive, since marines often don't have time to secure it fully - aside from dropping a phase gate. (which is easily taken out.)
The only exception to this is in a case like Mineshaft with Deposit and Sorting. Since they are so close together, if the aliens hold them both it can be a risk if the marines take deposit, since it's a short walk to Sorting. However, if you're playing on Docking and take out Departures - as aliens take out Cafeteria - you're going to have a heck of a time pushing to Generator as your main base constantly gets hit from Cafeteria. Not to mention if aliens secure landing pad with some crags/whips etc, you won't have the opportunity to press on to Generator (or locker rooms). Same on Summit, no matter which hive you hit, the tech point the aliens will take back will usually be adjacent to marine start. This is not the place you want the aliens to be.
<!--quoteo(post=2064439:date=Jan 21 2013, 10:51 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 21 2013, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all due respect, the reason for your failure on aliens was not because of the EXO, it was because instead of your Onos playing cat and mouse with the EXOs you should have sent your three Onos to their spawn and forced a beacon. Then when the welders are gone you hit them with bile and bye-bye EXOs. (only takes two bile bombs - 5 seconds apart - to kill all EXOs)
If your three Onos hit the power node in marine start, when the marines beacon you run since the power wasn't taken out fast enough. (If it was - gg - power node equals "aliens win" button.) If you were unable to take out the power, then you should still be able to get some of the EXOs. Even if you have a skulk go gorge in behind them, you just need TWO bile bombs, 5 seconds apart. When the marines get back there are no EXOs. Once your Onos get back, bye-bye forward base. Then you press on to pipeline, rinse and repeat.
Your tactical error was trying to defend when the alien team wins with aggression. When marines attack you should be attacking where they are NOT. You have the speed and power to do so, and it wins games all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should add it was a 12v12 server so there were 4 or 5 JP marines at their base/pushing to overlook so just running in was not as easy. Also, the second the onos move away from cargo the hive is killed, probably before the onos even reach the marine base.
Anyway my point is not that this game was unwinnable but that some few exos can really boost the power of JP marines giving them the only thing they lack: DPS. Probably youre right in 6v6 or 8v8 games because the immobility of one of 5 or 7 marines really has a huge impact on the ability to react to attacks on the win-button. In 10v10 or 12v12 the nagative impact of 2 or 3 immobile Exos is far smaller. So in the case I described, it really does not matter if 11 or 8 JP marines are beaconed to base, that won't save the win button in either case but they also wont be slaughtered by 3 oni. BUT if the 3 Exos in the corridor retreat a little bit, it's unlikely they will be killed by skulks/gorges becuase of the stellar positioning. And on a map like veil I bet you that the marines have repaired their power node and phased back to the dome before the surviving oni reach cargo. I dont want to argue about this one particular situation but I think when talking about Exos the playercount has to be considered. I think for a 5v5 or even 7v7 situation the basic concept of the Exo is fundamentally flawed so he really cant do anything but suck. The increse of firepower never makes up for the lack of mobility because well, there is not that much to shoot at. In 9v9 or 11v11 situations however there is much more action at much more places so A FEW Exos in the right places really can tip the balanced in your favour.
<!--quoteo(post=2064590:date=Jan 21 2013, 08:23 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 21 2013, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do this in certain circumstances, as it does what it intends to do - which is to prevent a rush on main base. One problem though...
What usually happens is that as the assault team is lumbering towards a hive, the aliens will try and hit marine start. When they get splattered with bullets they retreat and then head to our *second* tech point, which is undefended. So that tech point will either fall, or the team beacons there and the assault EXOs get rolled. Either way the end result is a turtle with my EXO sitting in main base waiting for the aliens to get their act together and end it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That happens a lot, but I'm ok with sacrificing a point to kill two hives. I personally avoid using exos at all costs, and whenever Im in a pub and hear laments of "oh god 6 exos coming" I smile and realize we just won. Why? Because if I can convince the team to hit the tech point with their prototype lab, its usually gg.
People just need to learn exo's are like arc's, if they go off by themselves the die. Exo's have a good amount of armor, long range, insane dps and unlimited amo. I've seen more than enough games where a single exo could stop or kill any alien power rush when used correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=2064968:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:54 PM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 22 2013, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People just need to learn exo's are like arc's, if they go off by themselves the die. Exo's have a good amount of armor, long range, insane dps and unlimited amo. I've seen more than enough games where a single exo could stop or kill any alien power rush when used correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If a single EXO is so weak that it can't go out alone for fear it might run into an enemy, then you've just made my case for me that the EXO is broken.
I'm all for a lone EXO getting rolled if zerged by a number of aliens. But a single EXO should NOT be able to be taken down by a lone skulk or gorge, which currently is the case. Even a lone EXO verses a lone Onos should depend on who got the jump on whom and other factors that might come into play. (like what upgrades the Onos has and what armor level the EXO has etc) The EXO is *supposed* to be the ultimate marine weapon, yet it can't go out alone? LOL!
This is precisely why the EXO is so broken. It has to treated like it is so fragile and can die at any moment. This is the 'ultimate marine weapon'? Heck the ARC has more health/armor and it can take out a hive faster and from a distance.
The EXO - in its current form - is a huge liability. There is no other way to slice it.
Yes a single exo by himself is weak just like an onos running off by himself is also weak. On the other hand if you want them to be able to tank more then really bring down their damage.
Now if you simply just like running off by yourself as an exo play combat, once you die you can just go exo again.
<!--quoteo(post=2065049:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:50 PM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 22 2013, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes a single exo by himself is weak just like an onos running off by himself is also weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Excuse me? When has a solo Onos EVER been killed off by a solo marine. Ever as is EVER in the history of the NS2.
It will never happen since you need to have a 95% greater accuracy rate and put all 5 clips into the Onos, WHILE STAYING ALIVE for a half minute. The only way that is happening is if the player is AFK.
So please, no BS about solo Onos being weak. Weak against what? Unless the Onos gets confronted with clearly superior firepower, there is nothing in the game that can threaten the Onos one-on-one, and that includes a dual-mini EXO. (so long as the Onos isn't taken by surprise as he's typing or something, he will be able to kill a solo EXO with ease.)
I ask again, please tell me what a solo Onos is 'weak' against.
Comments
Like regen for the aliens, just slower.
That same team will perform better, faster, and more cheaply in Jetpacks.
Like regen for the aliens, just slower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm..
How about we tie this to power nodes?
An (1) EXO can Use the power node to repair armor, but has to be facing it and holding the use key?
By themselves exosuits are a terribly weak pushing tool which can be destroyed by coordinted skulks and gorges very easily, but with teamwork exosuits are the definition of pushing potiential and are the most powerful resource in the game when supported properly.
For one, while I agree that an EXO shouldn't be allowed to use a phase gate, he should beacon with the rest of the team. Otherwise aliens can simply abandon the hive that is (soon to be) attacked and attack marine spawn. If they succeed they win the game, (since ever if marines have a second comm chair the game is effectively over) if the marines beacon and save marine start they lose the EXOs, which also loses them the game. So it's a no-win scenario. Allowing the EXOs to beacon removes the EXOs from the front line and gives them a VERY LONG walk back. In that time the aliens are able to easily regroup. Beacon shouldn't be a 'forfeit' button like it is now.
The second point is that the EXO needs to be able to see what it is firing at. Melee range combat is a joke, since you can't see squat. I've actually started opening the MAP so I could actually see where an Onos was with respect to my position since the view-screen was a mess of muzzle-flash, Onos flesh and blood splatter. If a person has to open their map to get a better view of what is right in front of them, something is seriously wrong. Give the EXO some way to see what he is shooting.
The third point is that the EXO needs to have HEALTH, not just armor. Even ARCs - which are rolling tanks - have 'health'. Give the EXO the 100 health that the marine has. (If people throw a QQ tantrum you can take off 25 armor to 'balance' it, despite it being weak already.) Anyway, with the 100 health the EXO can't be soloed by gorges. It can be seriously damaged, but not killed with an AOE DOT that can be fired from outside line of sight.
One other thing I would like to see once Onos have the ability to bash open welded doors is to have the EXO able to walk through and destroy clogged doors/passages. (as well as killing cysts they walk over)
Start with that, and see where it leaves us.
People say EXOs are powerful in large groups, and in a 12v12 game if you have 8 EXOs rolling to a hive you have problems. The problem is that the game was never balanced to have that many EXOs on the field at once. (same for Onos.) If it has to be done for sake of balance, perhaps they need to limit the number of active EXO/Onos on the map at any one time. I'd rather that then have a weak and useless EXOsuit that is more a liability than anything.
The sad thing is that if I saw that, that'd be a dinnerbell to a good alien team. That's several surprise gorge bilebombs away from a waste of 75 * 8 res. It's also a guaranteed power node snipe since either it's 8 v 3marines in their base, or it's 8 vs 0 if the exos are supported (I assume some aliens are keeping the slow exos distracted so it's not 11 aliens v x marines).
Compare that to 8 Onos and it's a joke. Marines can't win versus 8 onos.
Let's be clear about something. I'm fine if the developers want to designate the EXO a 'support' unit that is designed to sit in base on defence like a fancy sentry gun. While it may not be a very fun role to play, at least its abilities would match its role.
On the other hand, if the EXO is meant to be an assault class, then it needs to stop being a liability to the team every time it leaves base.
I can understand why they didn't want to have EXOs beaconing - since it means that any time the aliens attack the marines can bring back a defensive force that could most likely overcome the attack. In theory it makes it impossible to take a marine base if they can bring back all their EXOs at a moments notice.
I get that.
Here's the thing. EXOs move very slow. Marines will have more than one base. Distress beacon costs 15 res a pop. And killing the power node or observatory will prevent it. So aliens could hit one base, flee when they hear the beacon sound and rush to the second one. If marines beacon there, flee again. While marines are wasting 15 res a pop on beacon, your skulks should be out killing every single res node the marines have outside base. If you play your cards right you soon have a marine team with no res to beacon and EXOs that are stuck on one base.
Having the EXOs beacon with the team means that the marines are able to salvage a chance to win if they have to beacon. As it stands now beacon is basically a concede button.
<a href="http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/l5t1hzTM/large/dreadnought-jpg.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/l5t1hzTM/la...dnought-jpg.jpg</a>
Buff jetpacks a bit, raise cost to 15, improve smoothness of flight.
Let's be clear about something. I'm fine if the developers want to designate the EXO a 'support' unit that is designed to sit in base on defence like a fancy sentry gun. While it may not be a very fun role to play, at least its abilities would match its role.
On the other hand, if the EXO is meant to be an assault class, then it needs to stop being a liability to the team every time it leaves base.
I can understand why they didn't want to have EXOs beaconing - since it means that any time the aliens attack the marines can bring back a defensive force that could most likely overcome the attack. In theory it makes it impossible to take a marine base if they can bring back all their EXOs at a moments notice.
I get that.
Here's the thing. EXOs move very slow. Marines will have more than one base. Distress beacon costs 15 res a pop. And killing the power node or observatory will prevent it. So aliens could hit one base, flee when they hear the beacon sound and rush to the second one. If marines beacon there, flee again. While marines are wasting 15 res a pop on beacon, your skulks should be out killing every single res node the marines have outside base. If you play your cards right you soon have a marine team with no res to beacon and EXOs that are stuck on one base.
Having the EXOs beacon with the team means that the marines are able to salvage a chance to win if they have to beacon. As it stands now beacon is basically a concede button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mean a tank like a main battle tank, I mean a tank like a player role, you have supports, tanks, damage dealers that sort of thing. The Exo changes the marines group dynamic drastically by providing that tank role. Arcs don't come anywhere near providing that role because they don't provide a direct threat to the aliens themselves, they can easily be dealt with after the marines defending them in most cases. No threat no tank, no matter how beefy you are.
A tank class in an MMO for example is going to die in seconds if he doesn't have healers supporting him. It's not because he's weak though, it's because he is taking that much damage. Without that tank the group stands absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything because no one else can survive that kind of punishment even with all the support in the world. I wouldn't say marines have absolutely no chance here without an exo to provide that role, but they definitely push better with than without.
Or how about the single Exo? They are agreeably a total waste of res, the single mini does not do crap for damage to validate the 50 res. But perhaps if the single exo could be the welder role and be able to 'remote control' the comm chair in emergency situations, that would not only make it 'worth' the 50 res but resolve the problem of having 5 marines in exos and no base and no way to build / repair anything.
Perhaps if the punching hand could be cycled through different things, like it could be upgraded to get a welder, flamethrower, grenade launcher, etc.. so by the time you upgrade it with a few weapons and a welder, its now just as expensive as the dual mini, if not more expensive - but is actually USEFUL to the marine team!
The EXO is *still* not a tank class though, since tank classes have a large health pool. Look at the Onos. Now *that* is a tank.
An Onos has 1300 health and 900 armor with carapace. Against a marine's LMG, since each point of armor will absorb 2 points of damage, it means the Onos effective health is a whopping 3100 hit points. With 13 points per bullet, if the marine connects with all of his bullets, he'll do 650 points of damage in one clip, which takes about 5 seconds to fire. For that solo marine to kill the Onos with his assault rifle, he'll need to dump FOUR FULL CLIPS of bullets into the Onos, and then 37 of his last 50 bullets. The marine will need to have an accuracy level of 94.8% or greater, since if he misses with more than 13 bullets, he won't have enough bullets in his gun to make the kill. Of course this assumes the marine would still be alive. The amount of time it would take to fire all those bullets would be 25 seconds, plus time to reload between clips. IIRC the reload is a little over 2 seconds, let's call it 2 for sake or arguement, that brings this to 33 seconds in total. In that time the Onos would only need to land TWO attacks to kill the marine. Two marines isn't much better. They would need to get two full clips in, and somehow get part of a third clip in. The ~15 seconds that would take would give the Onos more than enough time to kill them both. Three marines? Still need a reload, and ~10 seconds of life. It would take FOUR marines firing with 100% accuracy on the Onos to kill it in the same amount of time it would take ONE skulk to kill an EXOsuit.
Let's look at the EXO.
A skulk can do 166.66 DPS of 'normal' damage, which means each armor point absorbs 2 points of damage. With 580 armor, that means the effective health of either the 50 or 75 res EXOsuit is 1160 versus the skulk's bite. With the fire key pressed down, a single skulk can kill an EXOsuit in only 7 seconds. If there are two skulks that drops to 3.5 seconds needed to destroy the 'ultimate' marine weapon. That's a tank?
What about welders you say? Well, a welder can heal 25 DPS for EXOs, and a skulk can do 166.66 DPS. We all know how that's gonna end. (Assuming the welder lives) Oh did I mention that the weld rate for an EXO is actually SLOWER than for a stock marine? (marines get welded at 30 per second.) How about the marine 'heal class' - the MAC? Well it will weld an EXO for a 'astonishing' 12.5 a second.
How much will a gorge heal on an Onos? That would be 58.75 DPS. It heals in ALL directions, on as MANY friendlies there are in a 3.5 unit range. Now *that* my dear friend is a heal class.
The welder works on ONE target, 25 DPS, and must be in melee range.
Sorry, but the EXO isn't a tank, it's a tinderbox. It's a liability on the battlefield, and gives the aliens a free 'I win' button when they make the marines beacon. There is nothing about the EXO that is at all a positive. Even its damage is mediocre since bullet spread means you need to be on top of what you want to hit. It's completely counter-intuitive. The principle of the marine is that its advantage is the ability to shoot from range. However - despite the massive amount of damage the EXO spits out - the wide bullet range means that you have no such advantage. In fact, if an EXO is facing an Onos, firing from range is a sure fire way to die. Your guns will overheat and the Onos will roll you. As it stands killing an Onos takes blind luck anyway, since the Onos model will clip OVER your model, meaning you can see NOTHING.
How is this a tank again?
If anything marines need to DEFEND the EXO, when it should be the other way around. That's not a tank, that's a liability.
mostly agree on anything. If any comparison to MMO style classes can be made, the EXO actually is a Damage Dealer.
Savant is completely right about how risky a EXO is in terms of accuracy/Minigun spin-up time BUT for the short period in which you can sustain fire, your DPS is big bada######ingboom. 3 EXOs in a strategically good spot with some welder support will hold down a whole Alien team.
Some anecdotal evidence: Yesterday I played Alien on Veil. We had Sub, Cargo and Dres at the beginning. So basically we had the advantage. Problem was that marines had good teamplay and quick jetpacks which denied us from taking Pipe quick enough. So after some back and forth we got Pipe cleared out with our first two oni just to loose it to their last-minute EXO team.
After that we had some 10 minutes of stalemate until marines started to very slowly push the corridor from Dome to Cargo. It took them like 10 minutes to advance the 20 meters to the Cargo entrance, but we had no chance tho hold them out of the corridor, because as you know, it's a very bad spot for oni to attack
By the time they were in front of the entrance we had 3 Gorges biling into the Hallway, 3 Oni that NON-Stop made Hit and run attempts into the corridor and some whips/crags/shifts between the hive and door. Of course marines could not get INSIDE Cargo but alsow we could not get inside the corridor. So they just slowly slowly got more and more ARCs and started to kill off our buildings.
When I ran in as a Onos I could attack the closes ARC ONCE before retreating and reaching the Hive with about 300 HP. We attacked with 3 Oni at once while Gorges were biling, but we managed nothing but to kill of 2 or 3 Arcs which were replaced again. It was just impossible to even reach the exos.
I think this is a good example how to use Exos: They are a great Attack/Defense unit if they manage to get into a position where they can only be attacked from one direction and get support by one JP per Exo. They just have to cover the ARCs to get the Whips down and then comes the GL spam which covers them against Gorges. THEM is the time the Exos actually can assault AFTER the JPs.
Also, it is very clear, that we would have won very easily if the EXOs at ANY point would have decided to rush in. With 3 Onos and 3 Groges even 6 Exos would have been massacred once they entered Cargo.
The EXO is kinda like a siege Tank in SC2. If you hit him out of position he will not perform too god despite still having good DPS. IF you get them into a sweet spot and sieged up they will murder anything that comes their way.
Problem is that most people in NS2 don't have this positional awareness with Exos (yet).
[edit]not above but post above above post. Fail slow post of mine.[/edit]
If your three Onos hit the power node in marine start, when the marines beacon you run since the power wasn't taken out fast enough. (If it was - gg - power node equals "aliens win" button.) If you were unable to take out the power, then you should still be able to get some of the EXOs. Even if you have a skulk go gorge in behind them, you just need TWO bile bombs, 5 seconds apart. When the marines get back there are no EXOs. Once your Onos get back, bye-bye forward base. Then you press on to pipeline, rinse and repeat.
Your tactical error was trying to defend when the alien team wins with aggression. When marines attack you should be attacking where they are NOT. You have the speed and power to do so, and it wins games all the time.
What usually happens is that as the assault team is lumbering towards a hive, the aliens will try and hit marine start. When they get splattered with bullets they retreat and then head to our *second* tech point, which is undefended. So that tech point will either fall, or the team beacons there and the assault EXOs get rolled. Either way the end result is a turtle with my EXO sitting in main base waiting for the aliens to get their act together and end it.
What usually happens is that as the assault team is lumbering towards a hive, the aliens will try and hit marine start. When they get splattered with bullets they retreat and then head to our *second* tech point, which is undefended. So that tech point will either fall, or the team beacons there and the assault EXOs get rolled. Either way the end result is a turtle with my EXO sitting in main base waiting for the aliens to get their act together and end it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but in those circumstances (depending on how your tech structures is laid out) a base trade might be worth it. Main base IS where your tech will be 90% of the time. Losing a second base (which is the CC, PG, Armory and RT) could be worth it if it keeps the aliens down at two hives/minus all their upgrades and your assault team capitalizes on the momentum. It really depends.
The only exception to this is in a case like Mineshaft with Deposit and Sorting. Since they are so close together, if the aliens hold them both it can be a risk if the marines take deposit, since it's a short walk to Sorting. However, if you're playing on Docking and take out Departures - as aliens take out Cafeteria - you're going to have a heck of a time pushing to Generator as your main base constantly gets hit from Cafeteria. Not to mention if aliens secure landing pad with some crags/whips etc, you won't have the opportunity to press on to Generator (or locker rooms). Same on Summit, no matter which hive you hit, the tech point the aliens will take back will usually be adjacent to marine start. This is not the place you want the aliens to be.
If your three Onos hit the power node in marine start, when the marines beacon you run since the power wasn't taken out fast enough. (If it was - gg - power node equals "aliens win" button.) If you were unable to take out the power, then you should still be able to get some of the EXOs. Even if you have a skulk go gorge in behind them, you just need TWO bile bombs, 5 seconds apart. When the marines get back there are no EXOs. Once your Onos get back, bye-bye forward base. Then you press on to pipeline, rinse and repeat.
Your tactical error was trying to defend when the alien team wins with aggression. When marines attack you should be attacking where they are NOT. You have the speed and power to do so, and it wins games all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should add it was a 12v12 server so there were 4 or 5 JP marines at their base/pushing to overlook so just running in was not as easy. Also, the second the onos move away from cargo the hive is killed, probably before the onos even reach the marine base.
Anyway my point is not that this game was unwinnable but that some few exos can really boost the power of JP marines giving them the only thing they lack: DPS.
Probably youre right in 6v6 or 8v8 games because the immobility of one of 5 or 7 marines really has a huge impact on the ability to react to attacks on the win-button.
In 10v10 or 12v12 the nagative impact of 2 or 3 immobile Exos is far smaller. So in the case I described, it really does not matter if 11 or 8 JP marines are beaconed to base, that won't save the win button in either case but they also wont be slaughtered by 3 oni.
BUT if the 3 Exos in the corridor retreat a little bit, it's unlikely they will be killed by skulks/gorges becuase of the stellar positioning. And on a map like veil I bet you that the marines have repaired their power node and phased back to the dome before the surviving oni reach cargo.
I dont want to argue about this one particular situation but I think when talking about Exos the playercount has to be considered.
I think for a 5v5 or even 7v7 situation the basic concept of the Exo is fundamentally flawed so he really cant do anything but suck. The increse of firepower never makes up for the lack of mobility because well, there is not that much to shoot at.
In 9v9 or 11v11 situations however there is much more action at much more places so A FEW Exos in the right places really can tip the balanced in your favour.
What usually happens is that as the assault team is lumbering towards a hive, the aliens will try and hit marine start. When they get splattered with bullets they retreat and then head to our *second* tech point, which is undefended. So that tech point will either fall, or the team beacons there and the assault EXOs get rolled. Either way the end result is a turtle with my EXO sitting in main base waiting for the aliens to get their act together and end it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That happens a lot, but I'm ok with sacrificing a point to kill two hives. I personally avoid using exos at all costs, and whenever Im in a pub and hear laments of "oh god 6 exos coming" I smile and realize we just won. Why? Because if I can convince the team to hit the tech point with their prototype lab, its usually gg.
I'm all for a lone EXO getting rolled if zerged by a number of aliens. But a single EXO should NOT be able to be taken down by a lone skulk or gorge, which currently is the case. Even a lone EXO verses a lone Onos should depend on who got the jump on whom and other factors that might come into play. (like what upgrades the Onos has and what armor level the EXO has etc) The EXO is *supposed* to be the ultimate marine weapon, yet it can't go out alone? LOL!
This is precisely why the EXO is so broken. It has to treated like it is so fragile and can die at any moment. This is the 'ultimate marine weapon'? Heck the ARC has more health/armor and it can take out a hive faster and from a distance.
The EXO - in its current form - is a huge liability. There is no other way to slice it.
Now if you simply just like running off by yourself as an exo play combat, once you die you can just go exo again.
It will never happen since you need to have a 95% greater accuracy rate and put all 5 clips into the Onos, WHILE STAYING ALIVE for a half minute. The only way that is happening is if the player is AFK.
So please, no BS about solo Onos being weak. Weak against what? Unless the Onos gets confronted with clearly superior firepower, there is nothing in the game that can threaten the Onos one-on-one, and that includes a dual-mini EXO. (so long as the Onos isn't taken by surprise as he's typing or something, he will be able to kill a solo EXO with ease.)
I ask again, please tell me what a solo Onos is 'weak' against.