<!--quoteo(post=2060585:date=Jan 15 2013, 07:23 AM:name=YMICrazy502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YMICrazy502 @ Jan 15 2013, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should be a prerequisite for jetpacks to be unlocked before exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This yes! I know people would whinge about choice being taken away but in this instance I just don't care. Jet packs are a far better first investment over exos.
One thing I would really like to see with the Exo's is for them to greatly increase the rate of fire, but decrease the per bullet damage, and add a little spread (keeping the same DPS overall).
The exo right now fires pretty slow, and only really deals damage when it fires the tracer. Looking at the code that looks like its .15 seconds. So it actually fires slower than the rifle.
The reason I think a rate of fire increase with bullet decrease would be productive, is it would allow for some ease in hitting faster lifeforms and a larger margin of error if the player misses while tracking.
I think the exos role as a heavy fire SUPPORT unit is a cool idea, which can be pretty cool when it works out (there was an All-in scrim that showed how exciting this can be for observers). Though for less skilled players it can be a HUGE liability since the low rate of fire can make it quite difficult to land a reasonable amount of shots against fast lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=2027012:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:41 AM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 17 2012, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exo shouldn't be able to be recalled. That would give Marines a huge advantage. The fact is its a powerplay risk vrs reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2031710:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:15 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 21 2012, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meh, EXOs are a joke anyway. I just killed 2 EXOs again - <b>as a skulk</b>. They were both firing right at me as I ran in circles and killed them. At that range no one can say 'skill' is a factor. So either there is a hit registration issue, or the EXOs just really suck.
No wonder skilled commanders are going with only jetpacks now. I didn't quite understand it until I realized how easy it is to kill EXOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hitreg, I noticed that as I train myself to fire at a skulks ass my ability to nail a skulk in under 25 rounds has gone up exponentially. Combine poor hitreg with terrible server tickrate and you have a disaster for interpolation.
Speaking of which, does anyone know if you can adjust and tweak your personal command and update rates, connection rate, and interpolation values like in Source/HL1 based games?
As such, they need to be used strategically. You can't just overcommit with your entire force in a slow-moving attack, because the counter to that is obviously a fast counterstrike which either destroys your base or leaves the Exos vulnerable.
They need to be used strategically. Put a moderate number of eggs in one basket, while leaving enough at home to avoid having to beacon (those 2-3 marines at base don't have to completely avoid dying -- but if they all die and manage to push the onos back out of base, then the beacon is avoided and your assault force continues forward.
<!--quoteo(post=2060637:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:20 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 14 2013, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they need to be used strategically. You can't just overcommit with your entire force in a slow-moving attack, because the counter to that is obviously a fast counterstrike which either destroys your base or leaves the Exos vulnerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As an assault class, the EXO is sub-optimal in nearly every case, with the exception of large servers where you can put together significant strike forces.
Otherwise, on an 8v8 map, you have 7 marines and you can really only afford to have 3 in EXOsuits. Any more than that and you have no means to respond to a base attack. So if you have 3 in EXOsuits, you leave two marines on base defence, and send two more to run around like mindless automatons with welders out. Those two marines are easy to kill either with skulks or with an Onos hit and run attack. Once the welders are gone, the EXOs will fall soon afterwards.
After logging many hours in an EXO, the only place where I find it can be effective is on base defence. In other words, the best use of an EXO is for it to do nothing at all, since the intimidation factor will keep a base clear for the most part. The problem is that you have two bases to defend, so if you sit an EXO in each, you only have 5 guys left. Chances are you won't have enough players with the res to buy 2-3 more EXOs, even if they were effective.
<!--quoteo(post=2060722:date=Jan 15 2013, 01:22 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 15 2013, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As an assault class, the EXO is sub-optimal in nearly every case, with the exception of large servers where you can put together significant strike forces.
Otherwise, on an 8v8 map, you have 7 marines and you can really only afford to have 3 in EXOsuits. Any more than that and you have no means to respond to a base attack. So if you have 3 in EXOsuits, you leave two marines on base defence, and send two more to run around like mindless automatons with welders out. Those two marines are easy to kill either with skulks or with an Onos hit and run attack. Once the welders are gone, the EXOs will fall soon afterwards.
After logging many hours in an EXO, the only place where I find it can be effective is on base defence. In other words, the best use of an EXO is for it to do nothing at all, since the intimidation factor will keep a base clear for the most part. The problem is that you have two bases to defend, so if you sit an EXO in each, you only have 5 guys left. Chances are you won't have enough players with the res to buy 2-3 more EXOs, even if they were effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Between JPs, shields, meds, and MACs, keeping those welder marines alive isn't really all that difficult. With 7 marines, you honestly probably only want 2 in Exos at any given time. That doesn't mean the exos don't make a really brutal assault in a 2 Exo + 2 JP assault force while the remaining 3 marines (and occasionally myself as commander) fend off attacks to avoid the beacon.
To imply that the're not useful seems outright wrong. If I had to pick one Proto thing, I'd probably lean towards JP, but they're not an exclusive choice and exos make very strong assaults.
<!--quoteo(post=2060735:date=Jan 15 2013, 03:54 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 15 2013, 03:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To imply that the're not useful seems outright wrong. If I had to pick one Proto thing, I'd probably lean towards JP, but they're not an exclusive choice and exos make very strong assaults.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not saying they don't have their uses, but they aren't really a useful tech. The 50 res EXO is junk for sure. If it had a welder instead of a hand, then I'd consider using it. With the 'bro fist' I'm not gonna waste my res. The dual mini is only of use in very narrow circumstances. Unlike a bunch of Onos, a bunch of EXOs is far from a 'sure thing' as far as a win is concerned.
Give me an Onos over an EXO any day. From a strictly marine perspective, I'd take a JP/Shottie if I had my druthers. An EXO is far too much a liability on the field. Even an ARC is a better choice, because it can take loads more damage and easy to defend. Assuming that the dual mini EXO will be drop-able by the comm at some point, I'd rather have 5 ARCs over one dual-mini EXO. They're rolling tanks that can handle a beating by an Onos with a smile. I might have an EXO guard the ARCs, but I wouldn't use an EXO for any kind of offensive push on an 8 player team. Not unless the aliens were weak to begin with.
So are the EXOs useless? No. Are they overly useful? Not really.
The problem with Exosuits is that they're a support platform that requires gigantic amounts of support. It can't stand on its own in any way; it doesn't have the AoE that GLs and Flamers offer, nor does it have mobility, regenerating health, a terribly large amount of HP, or even the ability to defend itself well against ankle-biting skulks. As stated before, it can't weld, it can't build, it can't lay down mines or recover weapons.
It's a newb trap. It's a shame so many people insist that Exos are the lynchpin to victory on marines team. I'm shocked I've never been ejected for my refusal to research exosuits as a marine commander, because I know it's a huge res sink that won't net me any gains. I'm better off building ARCs and relying on JP marines.
The fact commanders can't drop dual exos means players need to save resources to buy them. They often do. And we all know what happens when people don't spend their res early. If commanders were allowed to drop dual exos, they'd be a slightly better strategy. Honestly, I wish it was made so you could <i>only</i> acquire an exosuit via the commander; players could only buy jetpacks at the proto lab. That way you wouldn't have people foolishly saving their res.
As for the exo itself? Needs a buff, preferably in conjunction with a change that makes exosuits harder (but more rewarding) to play.
Is this real life, an arc over an EXO, on what planet does 1 arc even come close to killing a hive as quickly as a dual exo, I don't think I ever want to live on that planet. A dual exo is normally 100% area suppression, aliens and a dual exo can not exist in the same room at the same time and 9/10 the dual exo wins by large margins. A well positioned exo will never die to a charging onos and the only way an onos can out position an exo is by having a really lazy or stupid marine comm who thinks it's ok to not track the position of onos or forward scan his exo train.
The amount of games I've already had with 2 tech marines and 3 hive aliens and gone "yep, 10v10, theres 5-6-7 aliens there, factor a comm, lerk is missing, well that's a free ticket to the nearest hive" and destroyed an unguarded hive in less than 20 seconds is on the increase, it takes 3 rotations of a both guns to completely kill a 100% mature hive, not even 10 arcs can hope to kill a hive as quick as a single dual exo in LoS and the ARCs are sure as ###### slower and are completely incapable of defending themselves. Not to mention ###### all chance of respawning giving you stood on all the eggs in the 10-12 seconds it took to drop the hive below 30%.
At a risk I'd almost say the dual exos require a huge amount of skill to pull off properly, you absolutely must be able to track aliens from the map to your own position and constantly be able to figure out is the next room safe, is the comm supporting me with macs/scans, is there light marines and are they idiots, how long has the alien comm known about EXOs/how many gorges/higher lifeforms are around and where and what are they doing and can they do it.
<!--quoteo(post=2060766:date=Jan 15 2013, 04:56 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 15 2013, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So are the EXOs useless? No. Are they overly useful? Not really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That.
IMO, 'options' should be useful in certain situations, but not all. I prefer lots of unique 'options' to have a pool to work with depending on the situation (think alien upgrades).
For those that have played Magic: The Gathering or any other collectible card game, most cards are outright not a powerhouse all in of themselves, but under certain situations or supported by other cards can prove useful. When I played (I always borrowed), the Highlander decks, where there was no more than one of each card, were my favorite for its flexibility and unique play each time... there's my geek parallel for the day.
2. More firepower/health/ammunition than anything else, hence price.
3. Can heal everywhere with MAC/welder.
4. Marines can build while exo covers, exo covers better than marine.
5. Should have welder support anyway.
7. Much better than a jetpack versus everything in terms of killing power. Generally better versus lerks, skulks, buildings than jetpack marine.
8. That's the point, though you can beacon/pg and buy one at the other end quite easily.
TLDR: You are using them wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2060785:date=Jan 15 2013, 11:05 AM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Jan 15 2013, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with Exosuits is that they're a support platform that requires gigantic amounts of support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Support platforms generally do, that's why they're support platforms and not the primary component of an army.
<!--quoteo(post=2060826:date=Jan 15 2013, 11:59 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 15 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Support platforms generally do, that's why they're support platforms and not the primary component of an army.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Problem is that the EXO was designed as an assault vehicle, not a support vehicle. If the EXO was designed solely for support, and marines had another tool they could use for assault, I could see your point being valid. That's not the case though.
Want more flaws to mull over, I made up a list a while back...
-The EXO can be killed with TWO bilebombs (yes TWO) -The EXO is the only unit in the game without any health (even ARCs have health) -The movement speed is 3.7 for the EXO versus 7 for Onos. Even the Gorge travels faster at 5. -The EXO has a shorter 'time to live' and 'effective health' than the equivalents on the alien team. -The muzzle flash on the EXO is so extensive it makes it incredibly difficult to see anything at close range, and since almost all aliens attack with melee, when you combine that with 'blood splash' there is little visibility. -The EXO can only be purchased from a proto lab, and since it is usually in the main base (because of cost) it means an excessive walk to the front line. -The EXO can crush eggs but not cysts. -The EXO has no 'escape' mechanism, unlike an Onos or Fade or Jetpacker. -The EXO does not beacon with the rest of the team -The EXO does not benefit from weapon upgrades -The EXO is unable to 'self-heal', either through internal 'regeneration' or from a friendly (armory) structure. -The EXO cannot crouch to pass through smaller openings. -The EXO cannot use ladders -The EXO cannot use a phase gate -The EXO's 'built in observatory' doesn't benefit nearby players or the commander -Jetpack only lifts the EXO a few feet off the floor -Cannot eject from EXO -Cannot enter the command chair -Cannot build structures -Cannot repair power nodes -Any purchased jetpack or weapons currently owned by the marine are lost when equipping an EXO -When EXO armor reaches 0 the marine is killed and not ejected -The EXO has no close range 'disable' ability. -The 50 res EXO cannot be upgraded. -The 50 res EXO is universally considered a waste of resources because of its poor performance.
I could go on and on, but the reality is that the EXO is a big freaking liability. Extremely situational, and not the assault weapon that it is made out to be.
<!--quoteo(post=2060890:date=Jan 15 2013, 12:04 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 15 2013, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is that the EXO was designed as an assault vehicle, not a support vehicle. If the EXO was designed solely for support, and marines had another tool they could use for assault, I could see your point being valid. That's not the case though.
Want more flaws to mull over, I made up a list a while back...
-The EXO can be killed with TWO bilebombs (yes TWO) -The EXO is the only unit in the game without any health (even ARCs have health) -The movement speed is 3.7 for the EXO versus 7 for Onos. Even the Gorge travels faster at 5. -The EXO has a shorter 'time to live' and 'effective health' than the equivalents on the alien team. -The muzzle flash on the EXO is so extensive it makes it incredibly difficult to see anything at close range, and since almost all aliens attack with melee, when you combine that with 'blood splash' there is little visibility. -The EXO can only be purchased from a proto lab, and since it is usually in the main base (because of cost) it means an excessive walk to the front line. -The EXO can crush eggs but not cysts. -The EXO has no 'escape' mechanism, unlike an Onos or Fade or Jetpacker. -The EXO does not beacon with the rest of the team -The EXO does not benefit from weapon upgrades -The EXO is unable to 'self-heal', either through internal 'regeneration' or from a friendly (armory) structure. -The EXO cannot crouch to pass through smaller openings. -The EXO cannot use ladders -The EXO cannot use a phase gate -The EXO's 'built in observatory' doesn't benefit nearby players or the commander -Jetpack only lifts the EXO a few feet off the floor -Cannot eject from EXO -Cannot enter the command chair -Cannot build structures -Cannot repair power nodes -Any purchased jetpack or weapons currently owned by the marine are lost when equipping an EXO -When EXO armor reaches 0 the marine is killed and not ejected -The EXO has no close range 'disable' ability. -The 50 res EXO cannot be upgraded. -The 50 res EXO is universally considered a waste of resources because of its poor performance.
I could go on and on, but the reality is that the EXO is a big freaking liability. Extremely situational, and not the assault weapon that it is made out to be.
Like I said, not useless, but not very useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Savant and I rarely agree, but here we definitely do. I understand that NS2 is asymmetrically balanced, and that's fine and dandy, but jetpacks are vastly cheaper, more effective, and make more strategies available.
My favorite thing to do with JPs is to get two tech points, then beacon+jp rush the hive, beacon, hit the other hive, and beacon again. Usually only lose 1-3 marines, and guess what, the entire endeavor, with med spam, costs less than a train of arcs and exos, which will invariably die due to ######ty bilebomb bull######.
<!--quoteo(post=2060890:date=Jan 15 2013, 06:04 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 15 2013, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is that the EXO was designed as an assault vehicle, not a support vehicle. If the EXO was designed solely for support, and marines had another tool they could use for assault, I could see your point being valid. That's not the case though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
?
Marines, like most armies, use a combined arms strategy for assault. Get a collection of all your tools together and work as a team. The exo is a quite mobile support platform. It carries heavy firepower and is durable enough to catch the occasional stray bit of fire throughout an attack. Screen it with your other marines, supports its targeting with scouting, and repair with with marine/mac attendants and it will serve as an excellent force multiplier. Five marines without an exo are good, five marines working to support an exo have the firepower of ten, and with that firepower comes added survivability, because dead aliens can't kill things.
The exo adds some massively useful destructive capabilities to a squad of marines, not least the ability to shred through buildings indefinitely.
Assaulting is the way marines win games, saying they should have a dedicated all purpose assault unit is like saying they should have a dedicated all purpose win-the-game unit. I don't see any reason why the exo would be designed as an assault unit becaus that's a terrible idea.
Exos are nevery going to be viable for as long as they are unable to phase and beacon. You can't beat a smart alien team with exos because they will just attack in mass whereever the exos are not leaving just a couple guys, plus buildings to slow down the marine push.
This is exactly the reason you never see marines use exos in competitive play and why you see aliens win on pubs all the time via the i-win button once exos are up.
In such a fast paced strategy game, you cannot effectively employ such an incredibly immobile weapon unless its crazy strong.
I would suggest tinkering with the exos stats and allowing it to phase is the only way to really bring it into serious contention.
I was thinking about Single Exo. As of now it's kinda crap, the punch deals low damage (even against structures, with its "heavy" damage, it's outdamaged by a single minigun).
What if you could *<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->eradicate<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>* enemy structures with your Hand arm?
Eradicate would have a 3-4 seconds cast time, destroying the targeted structures and making the exo hold it in its hand, thus making it usable as a PROJECTILE to hurl at aliens! Sounds kinda crazy, right?
Of course it shouldn't be castable on bigger structures such as hives or resource towers.
Also, the current punch attack could be used in concurrence with eradicate. Click RMB = punch Hold RMB = eradicate
This would increase its effectiveness against structures and furtherly increase the fun factor (don't tell me throwing stuff at aliens can't be fun :3 )
I think EXOs can be the most awesome machine of war ever or plain useless depending on the situation.
I think the biggest Problem with Exos is that they are better at defending than at attacking. this is simply because the main weakness (mobity) does not matter when defending.
Nobody will deny that is it very very hard to get into a Base defended by 2 EXOs. The dual minigun DPS is so high that all aliens but the onos are basically one shots on mid range. So if 2 Exos cover each other with a distance of approx. 10-20 m in between it's downright impossible for skulks/fades to kill them, because on this distance the minigun is accurate enough to land nearly 100% on fades. This also translates to Exos being very useful to give artillery fire for pushes into hive locations. It becomes very hard for all meelee aliens to attack light marines that are covered by 1 or 2 exos. On the other hand, it is very hard for any alien to reach the Exo(s) in the back because he is shielded by expendable light marines.
So overall I think it is correct to say, that Exos are beasts in mid-range
On the other hand, Exos really suck in close combat. If they are biled they cant see ######. Because they are so huge, they cant really fight things at their feet effectively. Once you start to shoot your FOV effectively is lowered to 1/3 or something.
This leads to why in my opinion Exos often times are the cause of a marine loss:
the second exos are seen and used as the main Instrument to push any alien location, they get considerably more vulnerable. Consider following example:
If you push any random Hive room with 4 exos and 3 welder guys, the Exos HAVE to lead the attack because well, the lights have to welder and not die- both is done best from behind the first line. So this means the Exos have to eat any bile bombs, skulks, sniping lerks and generally have to cover all directions against possible ambushes/attackers. This is exactly what a Exo really is not built for. Covering multiple directions with quick changes of FOV are hell. Fighting ambushing skulks in melee is risky. Biling gorges effectively blind you. Generally if the aliens are too strong/many retreating is very hard and slow. Generally you have to take so much DPS, that the seconds the welder guys die, you are dead. They never have time to respawn and return to weld you.
On the other Hand, if there are 1 or 2 instead of 4 Exos, there are 5 or 6 light marines. They can take the front line while the Exos covers their feet against skulks and makes onos to be very cautious with massive DPS. Gorges have a very hard time to reach the Exos with bile because they are killed before they get into range. If light marines are ambushed they may be killed but they are covered by Exos which makes killing them considerably harder.
If the situation get out of control, the chance for exos to slowly retreat is much higher because the lights can buffer and cover their retreat.
Just 2 days ago I had a situation where we were 7 exos(12v12) and wanted to attack cargo. So all lights and Commander yelled at Exos to rush in. But as you probably know cargo is baaaad to rush in as exo. There where 3 gorges and 1 Lerk just preemtively so that any exos that pushed in was killed within 3 seconds. As like 3 or 4 exos died people got angry at the "######" Exos who would not run in. THIS is why Exos are often so weak - people want them used for the wort thinkable Job just because they are the most expensive units which - in peoples minds - deems them fit to do ANY job. But using Exos for frontline combat really is like giving mid to long range fire support with the sg - it's bound to fail.
<!--quoteo(post=2027531:date=Nov 17 2012, 10:49 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 17 2012, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want an exo with two hands and the ability to pick up an onos and suplex it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want the same but to make experiment in Onos/Exo breeding :P
<!--quoteo(post=2060936:date=Jan 15 2013, 05:07 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 15 2013, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the biggest Problem with Exos is that they are better at defending than at attacking. this is simply because the main weakness (mobity) does not matter when defending.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's exactly what I was saying. As a support vehicle alone, they're fine. Heck, they're quite formidable in holding down a base if you can get up high and cover a room. I sat on top of the drill in Drill Repair on Mineshaft and held our last base while I had the rest of the team out zerging hives. (one person with a jetpack stayed behind for weld/build duty) They were able to knock off two of them before the aliens finally did a suicide rush to take me out and finish the game.
So that's all fine and dandy for defence, but all this does is make the EXO great at helping to extend a turtle. Start taking those EXOs out and immediately you have liability. They're better sitting in base for intimidation than they are out in the field on assault. That's the problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, Exos really suck in close combat. If they are biled they cant see ######. Because they are so huge, they cant really fight things at their feet effectively. Once you start to shoot your FOV effectively is lowered to 1/3 or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Try fighting an Onos up close, there is zero visibility. None. With the muzzle flare, blood splatter and the Onos model, you see nothing until you die from not being able to see anything. That's why killing EXOs as an Onos is so painfully easy. So long as you get in his face and circle strafe, he'll be firing forward (since he can't see you are off to one side) but you'll be at his side missing the bulk of his bullets. Do it right and you shouldn't dip below 50%.
The big issue with the EXO is that it does great at the job it not designed for (support/defence) and lousy at the job it was designed for (assault).
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2060963:date=Jan 15 2013, 09:54 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 15 2013, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's exactly what I was saying. As a support vehicle alone, they're fine. Heck, they're quite formidable in holding down a base if you can get up high and cover a room. I sat on top of the drill in Drill Repair on Mineshaft and held our last base while I had the rest of the team out zerging hives. (one person with a jetpack stayed behind for weld/build duty) They were able to knock off two of them before the aliens finally did a suicide rush to take me out and finish the game.
So that's all fine and dandy for defence, but all this does is make the EXO great at helping to extend a turtle. Start taking those EXOs out and immediately you have liability. They're better sitting in base for intimidation than they are out in the field on assault. That's the problem.
Try fighting an Onos up close, there is zero visibility. None. With the muzzle flare, blood splatter and the Onos model, you see nothing until you die from not being able to see anything. That's why killing EXOs as an Onos is so painfully easy. So long as you get in his face and circle strafe, he'll be firing forward (since he can't see you are off to one side) but you'll be at his side missing the bulk of his bullets. Do it right and you shouldn't dip below 50%.
The big issue with the EXO is that it does great at the job it not designed for (support/defence) and lousy at the job it was designed for (assault).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2060598:date=Jan 14 2013, 06:48 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 14 2013, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They should have wheels on their feet. Combined with a "sprint" rocket boost system.
Something that you cannot spam of course sort of like jetpacks.
Only in the direction you are facing though so it will not seem overpowered if you have to turn your back to the enemy. And even if you did run away, the Onos could charge or retreat in that case. And most maps will not allow that much abuse since teamates can block you as well as other structures. Should mainly be used to getting to places a bit faster.
The entire marine team is better at defending than attacking, thus why they have to attack to win the game. I don't see how that's a point against the exo.
I don't know if exos need a buff or what. On the one hand, they definitely do have a lot of shortcomings as has been repeatedly said, on the other they are still very useful and nearly essential to the marines push, and VERY difficult to deal with as aliens when used properly both offensive and especially defensively.
I think the best solution is an eject button, with the marine retaining all his equipment he had entering the exo. Whether the marine should be automatically ejected when the exo is destroyed and what his health should be if that happens is debatable.
Comments
This yes! I know people would whinge about choice being taken away but in this instance I just don't care. Jet packs are a far better first investment over exos.
Rocket rollerskate exos.
The exo right now fires pretty slow, and only really deals damage when it fires the tracer. Looking at the code that looks like its .15 seconds. So it actually fires slower than the rifle.
The reason I think a rate of fire increase with bullet decrease would be productive, is it would allow for some ease in hitting faster lifeforms and a larger margin of error if the player misses while tracking.
I think the exos role as a heavy fire SUPPORT unit is a cool idea, which can be pretty cool when it works out (there was an All-in scrim that showed how exciting this can be for observers). Though for less skilled players it can be a HUGE liability since the low rate of fire can make it quite difficult to land a reasonable amount of shots against fast lifeforms.
What is the risk in going Onos again?
No wonder skilled commanders are going with only jetpacks now. I didn't quite understand it until I realized how easy it is to kill EXOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hitreg, I noticed that as I train myself to fire at a skulks ass my ability to nail a skulk in under 25 rounds has gone up exponentially. Combine poor hitreg with terrible server tickrate and you have a disaster for interpolation.
Speaking of which, does anyone know if you can adjust and tweak your personal command and update rates, connection rate, and interpolation values like in Source/HL1 based games?
They are Slow, Plodding Death.
As such, they need to be used strategically. You can't just overcommit with your entire force in a slow-moving attack, because the counter to that is obviously a fast counterstrike which either destroys your base or leaves the Exos vulnerable.
They need to be used strategically. Put a moderate number of eggs in one basket, while leaving enough at home to avoid having to beacon (those 2-3 marines at base don't have to completely avoid dying -- but if they all die and manage to push the onos back out of base, then the beacon is avoided and your assault force continues forward.
Otherwise, on an 8v8 map, you have 7 marines and you can really only afford to have 3 in EXOsuits. Any more than that and you have no means to respond to a base attack. So if you have 3 in EXOsuits, you leave two marines on base defence, and send two more to run around like mindless automatons with welders out. Those two marines are easy to kill either with skulks or with an Onos hit and run attack. Once the welders are gone, the EXOs will fall soon afterwards.
After logging many hours in an EXO, the only place where I find it can be effective is on base defence. In other words, the best use of an EXO is for it to do nothing at all, since the intimidation factor will keep a base clear for the most part. The problem is that you have two bases to defend, so if you sit an EXO in each, you only have 5 guys left. Chances are you won't have enough players with the res to buy 2-3 more EXOs, even if they were effective.
Otherwise, on an 8v8 map, you have 7 marines and you can really only afford to have 3 in EXOsuits. Any more than that and you have no means to respond to a base attack. So if you have 3 in EXOsuits, you leave two marines on base defence, and send two more to run around like mindless automatons with welders out. Those two marines are easy to kill either with skulks or with an Onos hit and run attack. Once the welders are gone, the EXOs will fall soon afterwards.
After logging many hours in an EXO, the only place where I find it can be effective is on base defence. In other words, the best use of an EXO is for it to do nothing at all, since the intimidation factor will keep a base clear for the most part. The problem is that you have two bases to defend, so if you sit an EXO in each, you only have 5 guys left. Chances are you won't have enough players with the res to buy 2-3 more EXOs, even if they were effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Between JPs, shields, meds, and MACs, keeping those welder marines alive isn't really all that difficult. With 7 marines, you honestly probably only want 2 in Exos at any given time. That doesn't mean the exos don't make a really brutal assault in a 2 Exo + 2 JP assault force while the remaining 3 marines (and occasionally myself as commander) fend off attacks to avoid the beacon.
To imply that the're not useful seems outright wrong. If I had to pick one Proto thing, I'd probably lean towards JP, but they're not an exclusive choice and exos make very strong assaults.
Give me an Onos over an EXO any day. From a strictly marine perspective, I'd take a JP/Shottie if I had my druthers. An EXO is far too much a liability on the field. Even an ARC is a better choice, because it can take loads more damage and easy to defend. Assuming that the dual mini EXO will be drop-able by the comm at some point, I'd rather have 5 ARCs over one dual-mini EXO. They're rolling tanks that can handle a beating by an Onos with a smile. I might have an EXO guard the ARCs, but I wouldn't use an EXO for any kind of offensive push on an 8 player team. Not unless the aliens were weak to begin with.
So are the EXOs useless? No. Are they overly useful? Not really.
It's a newb trap. It's a shame so many people insist that Exos are the lynchpin to victory on marines team. I'm shocked I've never been ejected for my refusal to research exosuits as a marine commander, because I know it's a huge res sink that won't net me any gains. I'm better off building ARCs and relying on JP marines.
The fact commanders can't drop dual exos means players need to save resources to buy them. They often do. And we all know what happens when people don't spend their res early. If commanders were allowed to drop dual exos, they'd be a slightly better strategy. Honestly, I wish it was made so you could <i>only</i> acquire an exosuit via the commander; players could only buy jetpacks at the proto lab. That way you wouldn't have people foolishly saving their res.
As for the exo itself? Needs a buff, preferably in conjunction with a change that makes exosuits harder (but more rewarding) to play.
The amount of games I've already had with 2 tech marines and 3 hive aliens and gone "yep, 10v10, theres 5-6-7 aliens there, factor a comm, lerk is missing, well that's a free ticket to the nearest hive" and destroyed an unguarded hive in less than 20 seconds is on the increase, it takes 3 rotations of a both guns to completely kill a 100% mature hive, not even 10 arcs can hope to kill a hive as quick as a single dual exo in LoS and the ARCs are sure as ###### slower and are completely incapable of defending themselves. Not to mention ###### all chance of respawning giving you stood on all the eggs in the 10-12 seconds it took to drop the hive below 30%.
At a risk I'd almost say the dual exos require a huge amount of skill to pull off properly, you absolutely must be able to track aliens from the map to your own position and constantly be able to figure out is the next room safe, is the comm supporting me with macs/scans, is there light marines and are they idiots, how long has the alien comm known about EXOs/how many gorges/higher lifeforms are around and where and what are they doing and can they do it.
That.
IMO, 'options' should be useful in certain situations, but not all. I prefer lots of unique 'options' to have a pool to work with depending on the situation (think alien upgrades).
For those that have played Magic: The Gathering or any other collectible card game, most cards are outright not a powerhouse all in of themselves, but under certain situations or supported by other cards can prove useful. When I played (I always borrowed), the Highlander decks, where there was no more than one of each card, were my favorite for its flexibility and unique play each time... there's my geek parallel for the day.
2. More firepower/health/ammunition than anything else, hence price.
3. Can heal everywhere with MAC/welder.
4. Marines can build while exo covers, exo covers better than marine.
5. Should have welder support anyway.
7. Much better than a jetpack versus everything in terms of killing power. Generally better versus lerks, skulks, buildings than jetpack marine.
8. That's the point, though you can beacon/pg and buy one at the other end quite easily.
TLDR: You are using them wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2060785:date=Jan 15 2013, 11:05 AM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Jan 15 2013, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with Exosuits is that they're a support platform that requires gigantic amounts of support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Support platforms generally do, that's why they're support platforms and not the primary component of an army.
Want more flaws to mull over, I made up a list a while back...
-The EXO can be killed with TWO bilebombs (yes TWO)
-The EXO is the only unit in the game without any health (even ARCs have health)
-The movement speed is 3.7 for the EXO versus 7 for Onos. Even the Gorge travels faster at 5.
-The EXO has a shorter 'time to live' and 'effective health' than the equivalents on the alien team.
-The muzzle flash on the EXO is so extensive it makes it incredibly difficult to see anything at close range, and since almost all aliens attack with melee, when you combine that with 'blood splash' there is little visibility.
-The EXO can only be purchased from a proto lab, and since it is usually in the main base (because of cost) it means an excessive walk to the front line.
-The EXO can crush eggs but not cysts.
-The EXO has no 'escape' mechanism, unlike an Onos or Fade or Jetpacker.
-The EXO does not beacon with the rest of the team
-The EXO does not benefit from weapon upgrades
-The EXO is unable to 'self-heal', either through internal 'regeneration' or from a friendly (armory) structure.
-The EXO cannot crouch to pass through smaller openings.
-The EXO cannot use ladders
-The EXO cannot use a phase gate
-The EXO's 'built in observatory' doesn't benefit nearby players or the commander
-Jetpack only lifts the EXO a few feet off the floor
-Cannot eject from EXO
-Cannot enter the command chair
-Cannot build structures
-Cannot repair power nodes
-Any purchased jetpack or weapons currently owned by the marine are lost when equipping an EXO
-When EXO armor reaches 0 the marine is killed and not ejected
-The EXO has no close range 'disable' ability.
-The 50 res EXO cannot be upgraded.
-The 50 res EXO is universally considered a waste of resources because of its poor performance.
I could go on and on, but the reality is that the EXO is a big freaking liability. Extremely situational, and not the assault weapon that it is made out to be.
Like I said, not useless, but not very useful.
Want more flaws to mull over, I made up a list a while back...
-The EXO can be killed with TWO bilebombs (yes TWO)
-The EXO is the only unit in the game without any health (even ARCs have health)
-The movement speed is 3.7 for the EXO versus 7 for Onos. Even the Gorge travels faster at 5.
-The EXO has a shorter 'time to live' and 'effective health' than the equivalents on the alien team.
-The muzzle flash on the EXO is so extensive it makes it incredibly difficult to see anything at close range, and since almost all aliens attack with melee, when you combine that with 'blood splash' there is little visibility.
-The EXO can only be purchased from a proto lab, and since it is usually in the main base (because of cost) it means an excessive walk to the front line.
-The EXO can crush eggs but not cysts.
-The EXO has no 'escape' mechanism, unlike an Onos or Fade or Jetpacker.
-The EXO does not beacon with the rest of the team
-The EXO does not benefit from weapon upgrades
-The EXO is unable to 'self-heal', either through internal 'regeneration' or from a friendly (armory) structure.
-The EXO cannot crouch to pass through smaller openings.
-The EXO cannot use ladders
-The EXO cannot use a phase gate
-The EXO's 'built in observatory' doesn't benefit nearby players or the commander
-Jetpack only lifts the EXO a few feet off the floor
-Cannot eject from EXO
-Cannot enter the command chair
-Cannot build structures
-Cannot repair power nodes
-Any purchased jetpack or weapons currently owned by the marine are lost when equipping an EXO
-When EXO armor reaches 0 the marine is killed and not ejected
-The EXO has no close range 'disable' ability.
-The 50 res EXO cannot be upgraded.
-The 50 res EXO is universally considered a waste of resources because of its poor performance.
I could go on and on, but the reality is that the EXO is a big freaking liability. Extremely situational, and not the assault weapon that it is made out to be.
Like I said, not useless, but not very useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Savant and I rarely agree, but here we definitely do. I understand that NS2 is asymmetrically balanced, and that's fine and dandy, but jetpacks are vastly cheaper, more effective, and make more strategies available.
My favorite thing to do with JPs is to get two tech points, then beacon+jp rush the hive, beacon, hit the other hive, and beacon again. Usually only lose 1-3 marines, and guess what, the entire endeavor, with med spam, costs less than a train of arcs and exos, which will invariably die due to ######ty bilebomb bull######.
?
Marines, like most armies, use a combined arms strategy for assault. Get a collection of all your tools together and work as a team. The exo is a quite mobile support platform. It carries heavy firepower and is durable enough to catch the occasional stray bit of fire throughout an attack. Screen it with your other marines, supports its targeting with scouting, and repair with with marine/mac attendants and it will serve as an excellent force multiplier. Five marines without an exo are good, five marines working to support an exo have the firepower of ten, and with that firepower comes added survivability, because dead aliens can't kill things.
The exo adds some massively useful destructive capabilities to a squad of marines, not least the ability to shred through buildings indefinitely.
Assaulting is the way marines win games, saying they should have a dedicated all purpose assault unit is like saying they should have a dedicated all purpose win-the-game unit. I don't see any reason why the exo would be designed as an assault unit becaus that's a terrible idea.
This is exactly the reason you never see marines use exos in competitive play and why you see aliens win on pubs all the time via the i-win button once exos are up.
In such a fast paced strategy game, you cannot effectively employ such an incredibly immobile weapon unless its crazy strong.
I would suggest tinkering with the exos stats and allowing it to phase is the only way to really bring it into serious contention.
As of now it's kinda crap, the punch deals low damage (even against structures, with its "heavy" damage, it's outdamaged by a single minigun).
What if you could *<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->eradicate<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>* enemy structures with your Hand arm?
Eradicate would have a 3-4 seconds cast time, destroying the targeted structures and making the exo hold it in its hand, thus making it usable as a PROJECTILE to hurl at aliens!
Sounds kinda crazy, right?
Of course it shouldn't be castable on bigger structures such as hives or resource towers.
Also, the current punch attack could be used in concurrence with eradicate.
Click RMB = punch
Hold RMB = eradicate
This would increase its effectiveness against structures and furtherly increase the fun factor (don't tell me throwing stuff at aliens can't be fun :3 )
This is the only way to make a single gun exo viable.
I think the biggest Problem with Exos is that they are better at defending than at attacking. this is simply because the main weakness (mobity) does not matter when defending.
Nobody will deny that is it very very hard to get into a Base defended by 2 EXOs. The dual minigun DPS is so high that all aliens but the onos are basically one shots on mid range. So if 2 Exos cover each other with a distance of approx. 10-20 m in between it's downright impossible for skulks/fades to kill them, because on this distance the minigun is accurate enough to land nearly 100% on fades.
This also translates to Exos being very useful to give artillery fire for pushes into hive locations. It becomes very hard for all meelee aliens to attack light marines that are covered by 1 or 2 exos. On the other hand, it is very hard for any alien to reach the Exo(s) in the back because he is shielded by expendable light marines.
So overall I think it is correct to say, that Exos are beasts in mid-range
On the other hand, Exos really suck in close combat. If they are biled they cant see ######. Because they are so huge, they cant really fight things at their feet effectively. Once you start to shoot your FOV effectively is lowered to 1/3 or something.
This leads to why in my opinion Exos often times are the cause of a marine loss:
the second exos are seen and used as the main Instrument to push any alien location, they get considerably more vulnerable. Consider following example:
If you push any random Hive room with 4 exos and 3 welder guys, the Exos HAVE to lead the attack because well, the lights have to welder and not die- both is done best from behind the first line.
So this means the Exos have to eat any bile bombs, skulks, sniping lerks and generally have to cover all directions against possible ambushes/attackers. This is exactly what a Exo really is not built for.
Covering multiple directions with quick changes of FOV are hell. Fighting ambushing skulks in melee is risky. Biling gorges effectively blind you. Generally if the aliens are too strong/many retreating is very hard and slow.
Generally you have to take so much DPS, that the seconds the welder guys die, you are dead. They never have time to respawn and return to weld you.
On the other Hand, if there are 1 or 2 instead of 4 Exos, there are 5 or 6 light marines. They can take the front line while the Exos covers their feet against skulks and makes onos to be very cautious with massive DPS. Gorges have a very hard time to reach the Exos with bile because they are killed before they get into range. If light marines are ambushed they may be killed but they are covered by Exos which makes killing them considerably harder.
If the situation get out of control, the chance for exos to slowly retreat is much higher because the lights can buffer and cover their retreat.
Just 2 days ago I had a situation where we were 7 exos(12v12) and wanted to attack cargo. So all lights and Commander yelled at Exos to rush in. But as you probably know cargo is baaaad to rush in as exo. There where 3 gorges and 1 Lerk just preemtively so that any exos that pushed in was killed within 3 seconds. As like 3 or 4 exos died people got angry at the "######" Exos who would not run in.
THIS is why Exos are often so weak - people want them used for the wort thinkable Job just because they are the most expensive units which - in peoples minds - deems them fit to do ANY job.
But using Exos for frontline combat really is like giving mid to long range fire support with the sg - it's bound to fail.
I want the same but to make experiment in Onos/Exo breeding :P
So that's all fine and dandy for defence, but all this does is make the EXO great at helping to extend a turtle. Start taking those EXOs out and immediately you have liability. They're better sitting in base for intimidation than they are out in the field on assault. That's the problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, Exos really suck in close combat. If they are biled they cant see ######. Because they are so huge, they cant really fight things at their feet effectively. Once you start to shoot your FOV effectively is lowered to 1/3 or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Try fighting an Onos up close, there is zero visibility. None. With the muzzle flare, blood splatter and the Onos model, you see nothing until you die from not being able to see anything. That's why killing EXOs as an Onos is so painfully easy. So long as you get in his face and circle strafe, he'll be firing forward (since he can't see you are off to one side) but you'll be at his side missing the bulk of his bullets. Do it right and you shouldn't dip below 50%.
The big issue with the EXO is that it does great at the job it not designed for (support/defence) and lousy at the job it was designed for (assault).
So that's all fine and dandy for defence, but all this does is make the EXO great at helping to extend a turtle. Start taking those EXOs out and immediately you have liability. They're better sitting in base for intimidation than they are out in the field on assault. That's the problem.
Try fighting an Onos up close, there is zero visibility. None. With the muzzle flare, blood splatter and the Onos model, you see nothing until you die from not being able to see anything. That's why killing EXOs as an Onos is so painfully easy. So long as you get in his face and circle strafe, he'll be firing forward (since he can't see you are off to one side) but you'll be at his side missing the bulk of his bullets. Do it right and you shouldn't dip below 50%.
The big issue with the EXO is that it does great at the job it not designed for (support/defence) and lousy at the job it was designed for (assault).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
have to agree
Rocket rollerskate exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know it sounds pretty ridiculous but I was hoping for a short dash or burst like in this video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F991RSOU00Y&t=2m40s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F991RSOU00Y&t=2m40s</a>
Something that you cannot spam of course sort of like jetpacks.
Only in the direction you are facing though so it will not seem overpowered if you have to turn your back to the enemy. And even if you did run away, the Onos could charge or retreat in that case. And most maps will not allow that much abuse since teamates can block you as well as other structures. Should mainly be used to getting to places a bit faster.
I think the best solution is an eject button, with the marine retaining all his equipment he had entering the exo. Whether the marine should be automatically ejected when the exo is destroyed and what his health should be if that happens is debatable.
if only onos had a similar concept
hmm... now that i think about it
onos with less armor, but receives double hp from gorge heal spray and crags
The hand really needs to be able to do stuff like build or something.
...and we really need to be able to get out of an Exo!
(i have punched an onos to death while dancing around it! :D)