Update 306 is now live on steam! - Natural Selection 2

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  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Posts: 425 Fully active user
    dePARA wrote: »
    While the Hitbox change had a noticable impact on the marine winratio, i cant see the "complete change in skulksplay".
    Marine vs skulk gameplay, not skulk gameplay. Or rather, the balance in 1v1 encounters. Basically, the amount of bullets it takes to kill a skulk. More bullets need to be shot. Muscle memory needs to be rebuild.
    dePARA wrote: »
    But these players still playing horrible on alienside.
    And that is the main reason of the horrible rounds, not the changes.
    I've had a pretty much equal amount of horrible rounds on both marines and aliens, so I'm afraid it's not as simple as that.

    .trixX.BacillusNordic
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    Well, it is that simple @halfofheaven.
    The playerbase has drasticly changed over the years.

    So you compare the rounds of today with lets say rounds 2 years ago.
    2 years ago, the game felt awesome while today you can have one good round from 10 with luck.
    But again, im sure if you would play a round today with the competent players from the past you wont feel that much of a difference.

    image
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Posts: 425 Fully active user
    dePARA wrote: »
    Well, it is that simple @halfofheaven.
    The playerbase has drasticly changed over the years.

    So you compare the rounds of today with lets say rounds 2 years ago.
    2 years ago, the game felt awesome while today you can have one good round from 10 with luck.
    But again, im sure if you would play a round today with the competent players from the past you wont feel that much of a difference.

    Sure, but it's not just because people are bad at aliens. People are bad in general. And communication is often times non-existant.

    I'm not sure there even IS a way to improve this situation, but if there is, it isn't health bars and hitbox changes.
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 863 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    dePARA wrote: »
    2 years ago, the game felt awesome while today you can have one good round from 10 with luck.
    Yes, humans are quite famous for retaining memories about events exactly how they happened and not lace them with emotions for the better or worse.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    halfofaheavenVetinari
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    Lets revert to the allmighty 249 build but im sure you wont see any difference.
    Leeroy Jenkins skulks would still die like flies, walkerfades getting slaughtered, still no communication or packplay.

    Its just hillarious that there really people out there who are thinking that aliens getting wrecked cause some healthbars or a little larger hitbox (with hp buff).
    image
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    Counter productive?
    Atleast im not whining nonstop about every little change and writing something like this:
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/144137/list-of-qol-changes

    Im just tired of these "I have no clue how to fix stuff but X has to removed 1st and Y is something noone wanted" threads.
    These "The devs killing the game" attitude is counter productive.
    image
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 863 Advanced user
    @dePARA let's entertain the thought that there has been an influx of players recently, whom are significantly worse at skulk play compared to the rest of classes.
    What exactly is you solution to that again?

    On the other hand most of us here gave ideas how to fix balancing/gameplay issues that could actually work, without any assumptions about the player base. I'm not saying that they will work exactly as dreamed up, or if they technically (economically) possible in the first place.
    But simply raging about "stupid" new players is not constructive at all. They don't read these posts, so will have no effect on them
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • snbsnb Members Join Date: 2006-11-09 Member: 58499Posts: 37 Fully active user
    dePARA wrote: »
    Counter productive?
    Atleast im not whining nonstop about every little change and writing something like this:
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/144137/list-of-qol-changes

    Im just tired of these "I have no clue how to fix stuff but X has to removed 1st and Y is something noone wanted" threads.
    These "The devs killing the game" attitude is counter productive.
    OMGOMGOMG I'm overjoyed because I just got my old forums account back so I'll just say nice thread and let's be friends forever!

    (Disclaimer: not really, I don't like people. Good thread though.)
    Vetinari.trixX.
  • snbsnb Members Join Date: 2006-11-09 Member: 58499Posts: 37 Fully active user
    Wob wrote: »
    I mean skulk across the board at all skill levels are incredibly difficult to play. People CAN do better, but the game is simply asking too much of people. I think there do need to be changes to help the common low skill alien playstyles like making them a little quieter, but I think the majority of the changes need to come from nerfing marine early game pressure and expansion.

    Early game marine pace is far too fast for skulks to deal with. If we just slowed that down a little and gave a bit more breathing space for aliens then skulk early game would be less of a problem.

    The issue with any change like that is trying to adjust for the already alien friendly mid + late game.

    Make marine base speed increase with armour level? Since, you know, lighter nanites. And stuff.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    snb wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    I mean skulk across the board at all skill levels are incredibly difficult to play. People CAN do better, but the game is simply asking too much of people. I think there do need to be changes to help the common low skill alien playstyles like making them a little quieter, but I think the majority of the changes need to come from nerfing marine early game pressure and expansion.

    Early game marine pace is far too fast for skulks to deal with. If we just slowed that down a little and gave a bit more breathing space for aliens then skulk early game would be less of a problem.

    The issue with any change like that is trying to adjust for the already alien friendly mid + late game.

    Make marine base speed increase with armour level? Since, you know, lighter nanites. And stuff.

    I would slightly cut marine walk speed (and maybe buff jps a little in return), and increase the build time of fresh powernodes and RTs.

    If you want to try something real new, add a third path of upgrades next to a/w: Speed. That would need some major rebalancing though. (Probably not worth it.)
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • snbsnb Members Join Date: 2006-11-09 Member: 58499Posts: 37 Fully active user
    Increasing build time (aka the most boring time spent in the game) is probably a bad idea. What about just levelling running speed with armour instead of base speed? It wouldn't affect fights, so it probably wouldn't be that hard to balance.
    .trixX.IronHorse
  • WobWob Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Posts: 485 Advanced user
    I was thinking removing marine sprint (changing it to a silent walk), and decreasing build time for RTs.

    Should stop the insane pressure early game (although expansion might be quicker), but not be much of an issue once map control is established by both teams and allows for no real change in recapping or alien snowball speed
    meatmachineIronHorse
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FLMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Posts: 123 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    My main focus in playing a skulk was always what is the most optimal way to dodge so i could close the gap into close range most efficiently, rapid a-d ground strafing with a mix of mouse curving, an incredibly rewarding skill in the game that took decent practice, has essentially been wiped off the face of the game because of larger hitboxes. That tiny micro window of getting the enemy's crosshair off of your model for half a second because of a sharp directional change greatly affected how you can charge up to marines (even with great aim). The larger hitbox causes any decent marines aim to never leave the hitbox even if you'v moved left, right, forward or backwards enough to think his crosshair wasn't over your model anymore, it in fact still is (even if the marine is aiming at open air directly next to your model). Seems like you really wanted them to only be ambushing vs a 1v1 engagement because otherwise its suicidal to run at a rine now with a skulk no matter how you move.
    Post edited by G_Lock on
    UncleCrunch2coughsencoolitic
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    Wob wrote: »
    I was thinking removing marine sprint (changing it to a silent walk), and decreasing build time for RTs.

    Should stop the insane pressure early game (although expansion might be quicker), but not be much of an issue once map control is established by both teams and allows for no real change in recapping or alien snowball speed

    Hmm. That would probably work, too, but would make marines a lot more unresponsive before they get jetpack.

    Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.

    *cough* Doom *cough*

    On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • ZekZek Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Posts: 4,690 Advanced user
    My 2 cents without having caught up on the whole thread - I love the way the new hitboxes make the shooting feel. Being able to have confidence that when my crosshair is on top of a skulk I'm definitely hitting them is a big improvement. But clearly that has tremendously far-reaching repercussions on the whole balance of the game so I think we should keep moving forward with new ideas to adjust for it. For example, maybe a buff to Leap speed/distance/biomass is in order? The NS2 version has always been quite weak.
    moultano
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    We've already told them what they need to do.. Shrink the overall skulk player model so the enlarged hitbox is the same size as the old hitbox..

    Bam. Shooting feels better and no impact on balance..

    People have been requesting slightly smaller skulks for as long as I've been playing also.
    meatmachineBensonHandschuh
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Zek wrote: »
    no one ever agrees unanimously

    Maybe it's not unanimous, but an overwhelming majority has been opposed to this in one way or another.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    Vetinarihalfofaheavenmigalski
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Zek wrote: »
    I've never played a game where the community simply "told the devs what to do" and they went and did it. Everybody has an opinion and no one ever agrees unanimously, it's been that way here since the very start of the alpha. The current NS2 team is still well above industry average when it comes to interacting with the community IMO. The forums are so toxic lately though that it's not hard to see why the devs might prefer to keep their own counsel. I wish people would just keep an open mind, play with each patch for a while and then post their honest thoughts without endlessly harping on it.

    uh no the team of subnautica listen to feedbacks, this one does its plan while trying to dodge the drama
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.

    *cough* Doom *cough*

    On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)

    In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.

    Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Members Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Posts: 280 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    no one ever agrees unanimously

    Maybe it's not unanimous, but an overwhelming majority has been opposed to this in one way or another.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case that the majority of people playing now don't come on here let alone care enough to post.
    SupaFredmeatmachineZekBenson
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    coolitic wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.

    *cough* Doom *cough*

    On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)

    In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.

    Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.


    This is a good point. Also, if you compare ns2 to csgo, the difference is aliens are moving faster. So it's fine if both teams are moving slow, but ns2 does have that thing about trying to shoot an alien trying to run. I mean you could still position yourself where you can hopefully get to the escape route of the alien without needing sprint though.

    What if the current normal speed is the new sprint or you are always running normally. A new walk button would go slower.
  • sensen Members Join Date: 2015-06-06 Member: 205292Posts: 22 Fully active user
    In Doom, at least the original, sprinting was defaulted to always on with a walk button. You could reconfigure to walk with a sprint button if you wanted to.
  • snbsnb Members Join Date: 2006-11-09 Member: 58499Posts: 37 Fully active user
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain there was no sprinting in NS1 and it worked just fine. Everyone would get used to a removal much faster than they think.
    TheriusHandschuh
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    Deck_ wrote: »
    coolitic wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.

    *cough* Doom *cough*

    On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)

    In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.

    Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.


    This is a good point. Also, if you compare ns2 to csgo, the difference is aliens are moving faster. So it's fine if both teams are moving slow, but ns2 does have that thing about trying to shoot an alien trying to run. I mean you could still position yourself where you can hopefully get to the escape route of the alien without needing sprint though.

    What if the current normal speed is the new sprint or you are always running normally. A new walk button would go slower.
    sen wrote: »
    In Doom, at least the original, sprinting was defaulted to always on with a walk button. You could reconfigure to walk with a sprint button if you wanted to.

    The thing is that if you can keep it so that you can only shoot while not sprinting, you're going to have to press an additional button just to be able to shoot. This would not be a good thing.

    If you on the other hand let players shoot at max speed (current walk speed) there is (almost) no de facto change you run into the problem I mentioned above.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
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