I've always thought the bite cone should extend sideways and hits on the side should be glancing hits that do like 30-40% less damage.
You seem to forget that we used to have this, a long time ago. It was removed because it was deemed that it led to poor damage feedback (whether you fully hit or only partially hit). Now it's always clear how much damage you dealt: One bite or none.
I've always thought the bite cone should extend sideways and hits on the side should be glancing hits that do like 30-40% less damage.
You seem to forget that we used to have this, a long time ago. It was removed because it was deemed that it led to poor damage feedback (whether you fully hit or only partially hit). Now it's always clear how much damage you dealt: One bite or none.
That was a good change, imo.
As with quite a few things early on in NS2, there was a poor implementation and then the whole idea was abandoned rather than the implementation improved. I've got no clue whether it's the solution here, but I'd like to think it's doable as long as there's proper effort put into implementation.
You need distinquishable sound feedback on bite success at the very least though, probably some visual stuff too.
curious as to why in pre-game you get killed when trying to go to marine/alien start?
This has been in since 304 methinks... The update here is the warning text that youre trespassing on forbidden grounds.
But I don't see the point in it either
The idea is because of warm up mode being a way to seed servers... people play, they take part in combat etc... but you will find people tend to leave a server if someone is just trolling by spawn camping... to combat the idea of 3 onos in marine start, or 2 JP - SG/GL sitting in the enemy base being douchebags, they made it so you can't.
it seems like you guys are just pushing out balance changes in attempt to indirectly fix the balance of your previous balance change, instead of just dealing with the problem directly.
buff aliens so they always win?
increase hitbox size
skulk too hard now? (shocker)
let's just give them more hp
edit: is next up increasing rifle damage because skulks are too tanky?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
I wonder if the almighty Flayra is up to speed about all of this, cause right now these so called balance changes just seem like random brain farts (causing more issues/side effects), to try and fix a problem instead of the cause of it...
I am disappointed lads... Or rather still dissapointed
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
edited July 2016
I will say this patch could, potentially, fix the biggest immediate problem in pub which id call the 'derp skulk ocean nonstop alien fail-train of losing'.
While it is the least worse choice of 2 evils, it still IS a bad choice to buff skulk hp.
Both the hitbox and hp buffs will marginally help rookies while greatly help veterans.
There may be another problem which could potentially even buff veterans even more but I am to lazy to do the calculations, so I shall put the below down as SPECULATION and not fact.
a1 is usually (read pretty much only) the most realistic choice. Sadly pub comms in general are rather clueless so in the past went w1 a great many times.
Of course we know that prepatch w1 did no extra damage vs vanilla skulks. (So no cara, regen or biomass)
Now if the hp buff is great enough to change this to 'some' extra damage, then marines got a buff with this change also.
Even worse, if the hp indeed boosts hp to a point where w1 matters, then veterans who do not get hit as much in pub in the first place, may even prove a asset which works with going straight to w1.
If you can go w1 without any realistic issues (due to lack of enough dying marines) then you are also safe to go w2. (Because else you should have started a1 first)
I strongly hope my speculation is not possible and that the new skulk hp STILL takes as much bullets as it did on w0, or it is yet again a buff to veterans in a small timeframe.
Reducing the skillgap, one veteran buff at a time.
>edit
I would theorize that a speed increase wouldve been better, but like I said.. choosing amoung evils. The hitbox fix should have been reverted until a more suitable environment was in place.
curious as to why in pre-game you get killed when trying to go to marine/alien start?
This has been in since 304 methinks... The update here is the warning text that youre trespassing on forbidden grounds.
But I don't see the point in it either
The idea is because of warm up mode being a way to seed servers... people play, they take part in combat etc... but you will find people tend to leave a server if someone is just trolling by spawn camping... to combat the idea of 3 onos in marine start, or 2 JP - SG/GL sitting in the enemy base being douchebags, they made it so you can't.
Well it just led me to quit a server, so it's not working. I had to just sit in Topographical alone... Dumb change.
curious as to why in pre-game you get killed when trying to go to marine/alien start?
This has been in since 304 methinks... The update here is the warning text that youre trespassing on forbidden grounds.
But I don't see the point in it either
The idea is because of warm up mode being a way to seed servers... people play, they take part in combat etc... but you will find people tend to leave a server if someone is just trolling by spawn camping... to combat the idea of 3 onos in marine start, or 2 JP - SG/GL sitting in the enemy base being douchebags, they made it so you can't.
Wow... just wow. If that's the case, they completely misunderstand how warmups work. Most players AFK until the game starts, so there will be noone on the field to fight. I've never EVER seen spawncamps in warmup, because it was crushed quite fast thanks to instant respawn.
Do the devs even play on pubs, or just playtests?
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Rantology is the only one in PDT and UWE combined that actually knows how to play the game, and she doesn't actually get paid to do the balancing aspects. I imagine she's helped to reel them in a bit. But probably not on pub aspects.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited July 2016
Even though I'm not playing.. seems like this patch won't help against marinestomping..lerks and fades will still diie much faster since it's easier to get full hits.. if they even get to that point..
Just a drop in the bucket.. balancing doesn't seem to be their strong suite :-(
And the downfall of NS2 continues. Really guys... I just don't know what to say anymore, this gets to a point where I think remi is just trolling.
no, he's just doing what he learned from working on cod
Yeah and if that's the case then hiring a former CoD dev was one of the worst mistakes ever..
Oh sure CoD may be a financial success on consoles, but CoD devs took that franchise from a 150,000+ players daily title, to barely being able to keep 20,000+ daily (on PC)
Literally CoD on PC is one of the most colossal disasters in the entire gaming industry.. And they were using statistics to back up their horrible changes as well...
Edit: And I really mean no offense to remi.. He just came from the worst dev team ever assembled.
bonageJoin Date: 2012-10-13Member: 162230Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited July 2016
Have just caught up on all the changes that have made it into the game since I left - have to say I'm not really surprised with the changes made.
You guys are so focused on player retention, you're actually starting alienate your remaining player community. These aren't highly opinionated competitive players or toxic trolls - these are the ordinary people who form your community, who play the game day and night because they love it for what it is.
If you ignore or make decisions which are likely to upset your remaining playerbase (of all remaining skill levels), how do you expect new people to stick around if your servers have tumbleweeds flying through them? You can try smoke and mirrors techniques like bots and other measures to create the illusion of growth and stable population, but sooner or later new players will see through those and realise that if core players don't want to stay and play the game, then why should they?
For those who are playing the "change is good" card and calling for everyone to adapt - change is good, but change that compromises on the core values which make a game worthwhile are not, especially one that is on its last legs. I've made my peace with NS2 and parted ways with what I think needs to happen to the game, but you should stop dangling the 'retention' carrot in front of these poor dedicated few that remain and focus on improving their quality of life within the game instead of hoping that after another 6 months of the current development model that you will have a surge in retained players due to accessibility changes that will ultimately benefit them.
As for the recent skulk changes, I think this is the wrong method to tackle the early game problem. Reducing the skulk model size and increasing the base movement would ultimately provide a more forgiving platform for floor skulks (aka rookies).
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited July 2016
Seems they ain't gonna listen to anything anyway.. in the last discussions of the last patches there were so many compelling arguments.. but thats not gonna force them to do much.
@The_Welsh_Wizard don't let it out on remi, I honestly believe that he doesn't decide things for himself
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2016
I am sad.
Props to people like Therius, Dragon and Bonage who are still putting in effort on these forums and are expressing well formulated, experience driven and logically sane feedback and ideas.
These changes the past 6 months has been like watching the blind leading the blind. Plus everyone is drunk.
Good intentions are nice, but at this point all I see is the undoing of the hard work previous people have done in balancing and improving the game play in the past.
The continual micro changes to gameplay are tedious and ill thought out. I want to see something big. Mercy kill this project and let a potential NS3 grow without all of this baggage. Something people can be excited about.
alien hitbox enlargement? From b279 to b30X (some hidden change) and now this build...
What´s the point of learning how to dodge? To learn how to overcommit properly? To learn quick reaction?
Are these qualities not important? Should all engagements be decided by the numbers and initial position of each player instead of individual fps skill?
alien hitbox enlargement? From b279 to b30X (some hidden change) and now this build...
What´s the point of learning how to dodge? To learn how to overcommit properly? To learn quick reaction?
Are these qualities not important? Should all engagements be decided by the numbers and initial position of each player instead of individual fps skill?
This is my biggest problem with the hitbox changes on the skulk. It's very difficult to dodge against any ok to decent shots. So that changes a big part of the game and also makes you feel helpless in front of a marine. There use to be mind games going on and good movement could win. This is why they should change the model of the skulk to be smaller or reduce the hitbox.
I played marine earlier on a map I'd never seen before.. (so I mostly never knew where to position and/or where the aliens were coming from)
At just a few minutes in I was 8-1 and leading the team.. At one point I solo killed three skulks who rushed me at the double res point...
Me solo killing three skulks as they rushed me... They weren't rookie ground skulks either.
To me that's proof positive that they've made Marine far FAR too easy. If I'm able to do so well I can only imagine how much easier it is for high skill players to stomp.
And the downfall of NS2 continues. Really guys... I just don't know what to say anymore, this gets to a point where I think remi is just trolling.
no, he's just doing what he learned from working on cod
Yeah and if that's the case then hiring a former CoD dev was one of the worst mistakes ever..
Oh sure CoD may be a financial success on consoles, but CoD devs took that franchise from a 150,000+ players daily title, to barely being able to keep 20,000+ daily (on PC)
Literally CoD on PC is one of the most colossal disasters in the entire gaming industry.. And they were using statistics to back up their horrible changes as well...
Edit: And I really mean no offense to remi.. He just came from the worst dev team ever assembled.
I think he was joking, but I'm not completely sure.
Comments
You seem to forget that we used to have this, a long time ago. It was removed because it was deemed that it led to poor damage feedback (whether you fully hit or only partially hit). Now it's always clear how much damage you dealt: One bite or none.
That was a good change, imo.
You need distinquishable sound feedback on bite success at the very least though, probably some visual stuff too.
The idea is because of warm up mode being a way to seed servers... people play, they take part in combat etc... but you will find people tend to leave a server if someone is just trolling by spawn camping... to combat the idea of 3 onos in marine start, or 2 JP - SG/GL sitting in the enemy base being douchebags, they made it so you can't.
buff aliens so they always win?
increase hitbox size
skulk too hard now? (shocker)
let's just give them more hp
edit: is next up increasing rifle damage because skulks are too tanky?
I am disappointed lads... Or rather still dissapointed
While it is the least worse choice of 2 evils, it still IS a bad choice to buff skulk hp.
Both the hitbox and hp buffs will marginally help rookies while greatly help veterans.
There may be another problem which could potentially even buff veterans even more but I am to lazy to do the calculations, so I shall put the below down as SPECULATION and not fact.
a1 is usually (read pretty much only) the most realistic choice. Sadly pub comms in general are rather clueless so in the past went w1 a great many times.
Of course we know that prepatch w1 did no extra damage vs vanilla skulks. (So no cara, regen or biomass)
Now if the hp buff is great enough to change this to 'some' extra damage, then marines got a buff with this change also.
Even worse, if the hp indeed boosts hp to a point where w1 matters, then veterans who do not get hit as much in pub in the first place, may even prove a asset which works with going straight to w1.
If you can go w1 without any realistic issues (due to lack of enough dying marines) then you are also safe to go w2. (Because else you should have started a1 first)
I strongly hope my speculation is not possible and that the new skulk hp STILL takes as much bullets as it did on w0, or it is yet again a buff to veterans in a small timeframe.
Reducing the skillgap, one veteran buff at a time.
>edit
I would theorize that a speed increase wouldve been better, but like I said.. choosing amoung evils. The hitbox fix should have been reverted until a more suitable environment was in place.
Wow... just wow. If that's the case, they completely misunderstand how warmups work. Most players AFK until the game starts, so there will be noone on the field to fight. I've never EVER seen spawncamps in warmup, because it was crushed quite fast thanks to instant respawn.
Do the devs even play on pubs, or just playtests?
Just a drop in the bucket.. balancing doesn't seem to be their strong suite :-(
no, he's just doing what he learned from working on cod
Yeah and if that's the case then hiring a former CoD dev was one of the worst mistakes ever..
Oh sure CoD may be a financial success on consoles, but CoD devs took that franchise from a 150,000+ players daily title, to barely being able to keep 20,000+ daily (on PC)
Literally CoD on PC is one of the most colossal disasters in the entire gaming industry.. And they were using statistics to back up their horrible changes as well...
Edit: And I really mean no offense to remi.. He just came from the worst dev team ever assembled.
You guys are so focused on player retention, you're actually starting alienate your remaining player community. These aren't highly opinionated competitive players or toxic trolls - these are the ordinary people who form your community, who play the game day and night because they love it for what it is.
If you ignore or make decisions which are likely to upset your remaining playerbase (of all remaining skill levels), how do you expect new people to stick around if your servers have tumbleweeds flying through them? You can try smoke and mirrors techniques like bots and other measures to create the illusion of growth and stable population, but sooner or later new players will see through those and realise that if core players don't want to stay and play the game, then why should they?
For those who are playing the "change is good" card and calling for everyone to adapt - change is good, but change that compromises on the core values which make a game worthwhile are not, especially one that is on its last legs. I've made my peace with NS2 and parted ways with what I think needs to happen to the game, but you should stop dangling the 'retention' carrot in front of these poor dedicated few that remain and focus on improving their quality of life within the game instead of hoping that after another 6 months of the current development model that you will have a surge in retained players due to accessibility changes that will ultimately benefit them.
As for the recent skulk changes, I think this is the wrong method to tackle the early game problem. Reducing the skulk model size and increasing the base movement would ultimately provide a more forgiving platform for floor skulks (aka rookies).
@The_Welsh_Wizard don't let it out on remi, I honestly believe that he doesn't decide things for himself
Props to people like Therius, Dragon and Bonage who are still putting in effort on these forums and are expressing well formulated, experience driven and logically sane feedback and ideas.
These changes the past 6 months has been like watching the blind leading the blind. Plus everyone is drunk.
Good intentions are nice, but at this point all I see is the undoing of the hard work previous people have done in balancing and improving the game play in the past.
The continual micro changes to gameplay are tedious and ill thought out. I want to see something big. Mercy kill this project and let a potential NS3 grow without all of this baggage. Something people can be excited about.
What´s the point of learning how to dodge? To learn how to overcommit properly? To learn quick reaction?
Are these qualities not important? Should all engagements be decided by the numbers and initial position of each player instead of individual fps skill?
This is my biggest problem with the hitbox changes on the skulk. It's very difficult to dodge against any ok to decent shots. So that changes a big part of the game and also makes you feel helpless in front of a marine. There use to be mind games going on and good movement could win. This is why they should change the model of the skulk to be smaller or reduce the hitbox.
At just a few minutes in I was 8-1 and leading the team.. At one point I solo killed three skulks who rushed me at the double res point...
Me solo killing three skulks as they rushed me... They weren't rookie ground skulks either.
To me that's proof positive that they've made Marine far FAR too easy. If I'm able to do so well I can only imagine how much easier it is for high skill players to stomp.
okay this was also far better than most other rounds I played with new hitboxes
They were most likely 10%'ers actually..
I think he was joking, but I'm not completely sure.