1. Marine start should have 2 natural RTs that can be reached within 10 seconds of running. The left RT (Servers) is 11 seconds away, which is fine, but the right RT (Upper Passage) is 18 seconds away. Consider moving the right one closer.
I'm definitely thinking of moving the node from Upper Passage back into Lower Passage, though I haven't decided exactly where I'll be placing it.
2. Alien start should have 2 natural RTs that can be reached within 10 seconds for a gorge. The left RT (Transfer) is 10 seconds away, which is fine, but the right RT (Crevice) is 8 seconds away. Consider moving the right one farther.
I have some plans (thanks to @Kasharic ) on how the node placement could be improved. At the moment, the right side of the map can only be accessed through Dice, Observation & Upper Passage. So if the aliens hold their naturals & push down to Unloading, they're holding 5 nodes that can be easily defended. To address that I'm thinking of moving the Turnip node to the top of the Cascade stairs.
3. It's very Alien favored to have a vent Marine Start, especially one that a single marine cannot get into. A good example is ns2_veil - Control Room, which has no vent and is very balanced. But then looking at ns2_descent, which has a vent in every tech point, is very Alien favored.
I'm not sure about this lane+vent. I don't think I've heard too many complaints about it and it is used by the aliens.. But it's a vent into the marine start.
4. There are only 9 RTs on the map. Less RTs means it takes longer to get upgrades and higher life forms. And it means both teams will be heavily dependent on claiming RTs, and if one team has 4 or 5 and the other has 3 or 4, it is very difficult to recover and have a comeback. A good example of a map that has too many RTs and the effect of it is ns2_tincan_station. It has 12 RTs. Both teams are able to get their full upgrades very fast, and if losing, can still survive by finding 4 or 5 RTs until they can have a comeback.
I'm not really planning on adding more nodes to the map. Fusion used to have 10 nodes (there was a node in Storage) but I'm happy with it being at 9 and I don't think I'll be taking it back up to 10.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited January 2018
I've put out a new build.
- The Turnip node is now at the top of Cascade.
This will make holding the right side of the map a bit less overpowered and will help Cascade see a bit more traffic.
- The Lower Passage vent entrance has been moved from the top of the wall to the bottom of the wall
This means that the vent is now accessible to marines & gorges. We'll see how that goes
Because I need to get some data on how balanced the map actually is, I'm going to try to resist the urge to put out any new builds for the next couple of weeks.
It'll be awesome if you can play some rounds on fusion and let me know what you think of it.
At the moment I believe fusion is on these servers:
- Spark Crafter Collective
- Diamondgamers.net (West3)
- Survival of the Fattest & Survival of the Fattest #RookieOnly 2
- It's also on Wooza's Playground, though with previous builds having a 90% marine winrate on that server, the community there is a bit reluctant to play it.
Is it OK if i ask why you took slice RT out and are determined to have it at 9 nodes? Just curious.
I removed it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Slice is at the center of the map, a major chokepoint and close to Turnip (another key chokepoint), which will always make it an important room to hold. Having a node in there meant that whoever was holding it had both map control and a greater res flow, which was a bit too much.
In the current build (and in a number of earlier builds) Slice is a strong siege location for Fortress. Because Fortress is so difficult to attack head-on it needs to be very vulnerable to sieging. But I don't want Slice to be both a siege location and a resource location, so I removed the node. Though in the current build it's probably easier to say that the Slice node has been moved to Cascade. There's still a node in the center and Slice is still a key choke/siege point, it's just harder to hold both at the same time.
As for the number of nodes. Fusion essentially has a pinwheel layout (like summit) that's been heavily skewed. By default that means 9 nodes. Fusion has had more, but it's difficult to find a spot for a single node that wouldn't give too much power to one of the teams. If I was going to add more nodes I'd probably need to go straight from 9 nodes to 11 nodes.
@Handschuh another point on cover in fusion: A large portion of my approach to balancing fusion has been to let the hallways be good for marines and then add vents/paths to bypass them.
Until I start trimming those vents and making it easier to lane block fusion is going to be pretty difficult to play in 6v6. Although it isn't being specifically designed as a comp map I'd still like to see it become a functional map for 6v6. Any suggestions on how it could be improved to work better in 6v6 are welcome.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited February 2018
New version for testing this week.
Layout
- The Vista vent has finally been blocked (!!!)
- Most of the crates have been purged from the map to make the map feel a bit less cramped.
- Crevice node has a bit more space
- I've raised a few of the ceilings to give the aliens a bit more space to move and hide in
Between the crate purge & the raised ceilings I'm expecting this build to be a bit more marine biased than the previous one. I'm going to be re-adding crates & other LoS blocks based on how things go.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
I think I'll need to check the map layout later in more detail. I wrote the following text a while ago - but looking a the screenshots I think the basic issues pesist... the lack of cover or hidingspots.
I played only the MarinevsMarine Version yet, but in general you might need to check out maps like veil or tram in detail. Even though some rooms look pretty open in general, it's pretty awesome that there are literally tons of coverspots for aliens to hide. For example, just look at a lerk... if he has 100% visibility while he approaches you and cannot hide behind bars, pipes, whatever there is in order to get somewhat close than you need to implement more.
veil:
- system for example, you have the upper and lower level, several things to hide behind, you could even hide at the roof to the opposite entrance between west and sub
- c12 you have the big half circle, the big sheet where you can crouch behind, or on top you can hide well - depending on where the marine is
tram:
- southtunnels is so fucking open, but yet, you can fly through without getting much damage if you just use the available hidingspots to fly/blink/pass through
- Ton's of hidingspots in ore, mezz, et, obs, logi.
What I'm trying to say is, that without these small hiding/cover spots the basic maps wouldn't be viable as they are now
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited February 2018
Layout
- Higher ceilings in the hallways around Slice
- The Crevice node area has been rebuilt. It's more open, but there's a lot of space to move around & hide in (you can get in behind the girders surrounding the reactors)
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
New fusion
- The back entrance to Vista (that is only ever used for gorge tunnels) has been removed
- The Fortress & Unloading hives have been rotated so that you can get behind/around them
- New vent that bypasses the Crevice node room
- It's finally possible to jump up from Cascade to Crevice (!!!)
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Thanks to @pSyk0mAn for some feedback & suggestions
- The crack that bypasses Cascade has been opened up a little bit - It's always been traversable, but hopefully it's a bit more visible now.
- Storage finally has some cover through the middle
- The Unloading node is now a lot closer to the hive
Also i suggest increasing the height of the fencing in fortress so that you cant gl hive from the left side of the room.
When you get a chance can you take a screenshot from that gl position? That hive has a couple of spots where you can hit it if you're aiming carefully.
The highlight of my ns2 career, I'm glad you got it on video.
Why do you play in windowed mode, though, you monster
When I'm working on the game, I have it in windowed mode, and sometimes I forget to take it out of it. (Sometimes I don't even notice until I'm reviewing these clips!)
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited May 2018
A new version of fusion is out
- Observation has been completely rebuilt
- The area around the Crevice node is a bit smaller
- Supports (the location between Crevice & Observation) and part of Transfer has a new ceiling
- There's now another window into the giant turbine (blame @pSyk0mAn for that idea) between Slice & Cascade
The new hive
Looking from Crevice, through Supports & into Observation
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
A quick change:
- The left half of Supports has been removed to make it more difficult to siege the Observation hive.
- The Transfer-Supports vent has been extended and connected to the Supports-Crevice vent.
Comments
I'm definitely thinking of moving the node from Upper Passage back into Lower Passage, though I haven't decided exactly where I'll be placing it.
I have some plans (thanks to @Kasharic ) on how the node placement could be improved. At the moment, the right side of the map can only be accessed through Dice, Observation & Upper Passage. So if the aliens hold their naturals & push down to Unloading, they're holding 5 nodes that can be easily defended. To address that I'm thinking of moving the Turnip node to the top of the Cascade stairs.
I'm not sure about this lane+vent. I don't think I've heard too many complaints about it and it is used by the aliens.. But it's a vent into the marine start.
I'm not really planning on adding more nodes to the map. Fusion used to have 10 nodes (there was a node in Storage) but I'm happy with it being at 9 and I don't think I'll be taking it back up to 10.
Is there a particular reason that you think the hive should be made more siege friendly? It's currently very vulnerable to on-foot pushes.
- The Turnip node is now at the top of Cascade.
This will make holding the right side of the map a bit less overpowered and will help Cascade see a bit more traffic.
- The Lower Passage vent entrance has been moved from the top of the wall to the bottom of the wall
This means that the vent is now accessible to marines & gorges. We'll see how that goes
Because I need to get some data on how balanced the map actually is, I'm going to try to resist the urge to put out any new builds for the next couple of weeks.
It'll be awesome if you can play some rounds on fusion and let me know what you think of it.
At the moment I believe fusion is on these servers:
- Spark Crafter Collective
- Diamondgamers.net (West3)
- Survival of the Fattest & Survival of the Fattest #RookieOnly 2
- It's also on Wooza's Playground, though with previous builds having a 90% marine winrate on that server, the community there is a bit reluctant to play it.
I removed it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Slice is at the center of the map, a major chokepoint and close to Turnip (another key chokepoint), which will always make it an important room to hold. Having a node in there meant that whoever was holding it had both map control and a greater res flow, which was a bit too much.
In the current build (and in a number of earlier builds) Slice is a strong siege location for Fortress. Because Fortress is so difficult to attack head-on it needs to be very vulnerable to sieging. But I don't want Slice to be both a siege location and a resource location, so I removed the node. Though in the current build it's probably easier to say that the Slice node has been moved to Cascade. There's still a node in the center and Slice is still a key choke/siege point, it's just harder to hold both at the same time.
As for the number of nodes. Fusion essentially has a pinwheel layout (like summit) that's been heavily skewed. By default that means 9 nodes. Fusion has had more, but it's difficult to find a spot for a single node that wouldn't give too much power to one of the teams. If I was going to add more nodes I'd probably need to go straight from 9 nodes to 11 nodes.
@Handschuh another point on cover in fusion: A large portion of my approach to balancing fusion has been to let the hallways be good for marines and then add vents/paths to bypass them.
Until I start trimming those vents and making it easier to lane block fusion is going to be pretty difficult to play in 6v6. Although it isn't being specifically designed as a comp map I'd still like to see it become a functional map for 6v6. Any suggestions on how it could be improved to work better in 6v6 are welcome.
- Transfer has been broken into Transfer (Cascade to Observation) & Transition (Storage to Observation)
Transition
- The stairs to the top of Fortress have (finally) been widened
- Observation and some of its approaches have been raised a bit to reduce the number of stairs required to get there
[EDIT] The new layout:
Changes
- Some cover was added in Transfer
- A small hidey hole was added to Transfer (it doesn't actually go anywhere)
- The Upper Passage node was moved back to Lower Passage
- The Crevice to Cascade jump is now possible again.
Layout
- The Vista vent has finally been blocked (!!!)
- Most of the crates have been purged from the map to make the map feel a bit less cramped.
- Crevice node has a bit more space
- I've raised a few of the ceilings to give the aliens a bit more space to move and hide in
Between the crate purge & the raised ceilings I'm expecting this build to be a bit more marine biased than the previous one. I'm going to be re-adding crates & other LoS blocks based on how things go.
- Alcoves and a hiding spot in Passage
- Raised ceilings in Crevice, Stalk & Observation
- A vent that runs from Transition to Storage to Fortress
- Dice has been opened up a little bit & the door to the Dice vent is completely open
- There's now a vent from the top of Fortress to Slice - lets see how this plays
I played only the MarinevsMarine Version yet, but in general you might need to check out maps like veil or tram in detail. Even though some rooms look pretty open in general, it's pretty awesome that there are literally tons of coverspots for aliens to hide. For example, just look at a lerk... if he has 100% visibility while he approaches you and cannot hide behind bars, pipes, whatever there is in order to get somewhat close than you need to implement more.
veil:
- system for example, you have the upper and lower level, several things to hide behind, you could even hide at the roof to the opposite entrance between west and sub
- c12 you have the big half circle, the big sheet where you can crouch behind, or on top you can hide well - depending on where the marine is
tram:
- southtunnels is so fucking open, but yet, you can fly through without getting much damage if you just use the available hidingspots to fly/blink/pass through
- Ton's of hidingspots in ore, mezz, et, obs, logi.
What I'm trying to say is, that without these small hiding/cover spots the basic maps wouldn't be viable as they are now
- Higher ceilings in the hallways around Slice
- The Crevice node area has been rebuilt. It's more open, but there's a lot of space to move around & hide in (you can get in behind the girders surrounding the reactors)
- There's some ceiling cover in Server
- The back entrance to Vista (that is only ever used for gorge tunnels) has been removed
- The Fortress & Unloading hives have been rotated so that you can get behind/around them
- New vent that bypasses the Crevice node room
- It's finally possible to jump up from Cascade to Crevice (!!!)
Layout
New Vent
Missing path
- The crack that bypasses Cascade has been opened up a little bit - It's always been traversable, but hopefully it's a bit more visible now.
- Storage finally has some cover through the middle
- The Unloading node is now a lot closer to the hive
Cascade
Also i suggest increasing the height of the fencing in fortress so that you cant gl hive from the left side of the room.
When you get a chance can you take a screenshot from that gl position? That hive has a couple of spots where you can hit it if you're aiming carefully.
An alien natural, the Transfer node, has been moved into the small room at the top of Transit
I like how the infestation does this
It's called glass.
then there should be
The highlight of my ns2 career, I'm glad you got it on video.
Why do you play in windowed mode, though, you monster
I had noticed that. It's certainly strange..
When I'm working on the game, I have it in windowed mode, and sometimes I forget to take it out of it. (Sometimes I don't even notice until I'm reviewing these clips!)
I'm working on a new version of the Observation tech point. It's still a WIP
It's almost done. It's in the level but I still need to figure out how to connect it to Transfer & then add occlusion geometry.
- Observation has been completely rebuilt
- The area around the Crevice node is a bit smaller
- Supports (the location between Crevice & Observation) and part of Transfer has a new ceiling
- There's now another window into the giant turbine (blame @pSyk0mAn for that idea) between Slice & Cascade
Looking from Crevice, through Supports & into Observation
Transfer
The new window
- The left half of Supports has been removed to make it more difficult to siege the Observation hive.
- The Transfer-Supports vent has been extended and connected to the Supports-Crevice vent.
Seem to be standing still to me