Just played two captains rounds on TGNS. Some people were saying the map was awesome, others said the map is way too big. This is the first time I have seen such a positive reaction to the map. First game marines had strong early aggression which ended against fades. Second game aliens won with a bile rush as marines killed our 2nd hive.
Some more specific feedback, when leaving mineral processing it is not intuitive on how to exit the room to generators. I found myself on multiple occasions accidentally passing that doorway.
its a good map and has alot of potential, i think the overall size of the map needs to be scaled down to about 90% of what it currently is
long open corridors and large open rooms, and i think the doorways are just too wide, you can fit 3 exo's side by side through most of the doorways
I gave a lot of feedback tonight in game, but generally I just don't like the feel of the map.
Perhaps it's just that in what feels like 90% of the games I've played on it I've been on the losing team and not just by a little, but a total stomp. Size may be similar to Jambi, which I do like, but the layout of the paths is completely different. In Jambi you have one route through the center and one route through the outside to the side tech points. You can argue that Mineral has the same, though without a central tech point or node itself; however, the paths from the center really rejoin the outer path well before anything else is reached. Every time we've played the new build without automation as a tech point, marines are forced to go for production, the other tech points are just too far away. Path wise though that gives marines only one way to reinforce until gates are available (without adding 30-60 seconds to a route), and because of the large size pressure seems to fail, or when present leaves you wide open at home due to the travel times. I'm not sure why Jambi doesn't feel that way too but I think it's largely due to the extra freedom of having 4 entrance/exits from the generator tp, 3 of which split into two different paths immediately outside giving what feels like 7 routes and much more freedom to move about the map whereas Mineral currently feels like a slog to get anywhere when not right by a gate. Maybe some vents should be more marine friendly to open up other possible ways to get around? Do aliens even use the vents very often? It seems like most of the time they don't in the games I've played. Anyway, don't know what the fixes to these complaints would be; but, hopefully the feedback is helpful anyway.
Every time we've played the new build without automation as a tech point, marines are forced to go for production, the other tech points are just too far away.
Yeah, why do they ? pub play I guess. When there was a TP in Automation, marines were always going for a second base or relocation, which was bad.
Also, bare in mind that the layout has changed, and the new update in coming very soon (probably on monday). MasterG is just waiting for the w6 nsl matches to be over before releasing the new version. The changes were discussed and built thanks to the help of comp players and routing should be more intuitive.
You'll now access Control through Automation only. Waiting has now a double door entrance into Automation, similar to Repair entrances into Hub. Stations is fully detailed, the corridor between Stations and Min Pro as well.
@Nordic : the orientation issues you experienced in Min Pro might have to do with the many changes the room has been through in the last few months, especially regarding the location of the Connector entrance. I have to admit that I muscle-memoried my way out of it a few times and ended up going straight into a wall, before realizing "oh wait the entrance is elsewhere now".
Maybe some vents should be more marine friendly to open up other possible ways to get around
It's already the case on the marines natural expansion territory. And it's gonna stay this way, having vents in which marines can travel through in the upper side of the map were considered as issues by many players pub and comp, so this was changed. You can check the Secu vent, use the Lounge/Prod one and the Transfer/East Path if you wanna be sneaky, pinch, trap, ambush, or be faster (east path).
And as always, the map isn't too big, it used to be, but I couldn't disagree more with this statement. If the map was smaller, marines timings would be shorter and we would end up again in marines high pressure and aliens being on the defensive all the time, having to rely REALLY heavily on the lerks
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
New build is out on the workshop. Minimap above still legit.
Mineral beta 3.40 change log:
- Broke up Mineral Processing - Generators vent into two vents that both connect to Connection. No longer OP for bile-bombing gorges.
- Dimmed lighting in Generators.
- Closed off the center part of Connection a little bit to give aliens less hiding spots. Still loads of spots to take cover though!
- Expanded East Path southwards and connected it to Automation closer to the entrance(to Automation) from Lockers. Removes the U-turn in East Path.
- Moved and rotated Break Room. It now connects to the north of Automation and goes further north to Pump Control. Removed its connection to Loading Bay.
- Opened up entrance to Automation from Waiting. Expanded Waiting slightly north.
- Opened up Automation to make the room more viable for marines zoning/blocking lanes.
- Widened Pump Control.
- Detailed Pump Station. Still keeps generally the same game flow as the previous version.
- Vent from Generators going westwards now connects to Break Room.
- Moved vent entrances in Storage/Loading Bay and added a connecting vent to Pump Control.
- Moved vent entrance in Transport.
- Removed the silly vent going from East Path to East Path(lol).
- Added new location, Leak, in the corridor between Pump Station and Mineral Processing.
- Probably something else that I forgot. And some other stuff as well!
Feedback :
. you forgot to add the new skybox to the update files
. the bright white lights on the closed doors in East Path and Control are a bit too bright imo.
. I know you said you were going to redo the lighting in Min Pro, but i'm still gonna put this out there : lighting in Min Pro doesn't fit with the other rooms in the North lane. Maybe tune everything down and add a light to the Connection entrance so it's easier to spot behind the crate. Screens :
. Pump Control is larger, but there are just huge ass spaces without cover for aliens. So if aliens wanted this to be more alien-friendly I don't think it will work out for them. It just gives marines more room to shoot from afar and move away to force aliens out of cover.
. I'd suggest adding the closed version of these railings here, for better ground cover, peak and para style
. If marines fall down there, they have no way of getting out. I'd suggest just closing it completely. A ladder would just look silly
. I noticed some stuff left in commander view as well, I don't have the detail, but check Stations and Leak mainly. South walls that could be an issue with meds and structures and also north walls too tall and maybe distracting for a comm ingame.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Looks a lot cleaner on the minimap. I'll check it out when I have a chance. I really like that break room is attached as it is. Also East Path changes get a thumbs up from the minimap.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Hotfix B3.41 is out:
- Toned down lighting on Mineral Processing to match the lighting of the rest of the north of the map. Added brighter lights above the doors in there to highlight them.
- Blocked off a small pit behind some pipes in Pump Station.
- Added the cover type railings around some pipes in Pump Station, like MV requested.
- Made the southern part of Pump Control less wide and added some cover to the more open side of it.
- Removed all vent ceilings from the commander view.
- Removed some other stuff around the map from the commander view.
- Added skybox materials to the correct folder!
- Added some neat detail to Lounge.
Also thanks to @UncleCrunch for the Asteroid Belt skybox. It works well with Mineral's story, which I haven't finished writing yet.
[=Alex=]Join Date: 2008-12-25Member: 65866Members, Squad Five Blue
Good work! I really like what I see out there, the care with textures geometry, the use of props! And very important the careful lighting. Very nice and detailed work. I hope to play one of these days.It looks like fun
- Toned down lighting on Mineral Processing to match the lighting of the rest of the north of the map. Added brighter lights above the doors in there to highlight them.
- Blocked off a small pit behind some pipes in Pump Station.
- Added the cover type railings around some pipes in Pump Station, like MV requested.
- Made the southern part of Pump Control less wide and added some cover to the more open side of it.
- Removed all vent ceilings from the commander view.
- Removed some other stuff around the map from the commander view.
- Added skybox materials to the correct folder!
- Added some neat detail to Lounge.
Also thanks to @UncleCrunch for the Asteroid Belt skybox. It works well with Mineral's story, which I haven't finished writing yet.
Just played two matches in a low skilled pub on mineral. Both alien stomps pretty much. Nobody blamed the map vocally, and people were saying it was good. This is nice to see some positiveness compared to the hate I saw when I started making those videos. People were saying both security and lockers are too alien friendly. They were alien stomps, but I still find it to be valid feedback.
Anyways, leaving mineral out to generator is a real pain. The map does not lead you that way. In fact it is very hard to see unless you look for it. I again kept running past it even though I was turning left because I know it is on the left. This time I brought pictures. With max FOV.
In the hive room, with hive behind me.
Just on the other side of the wall that separates the hive room from the rest of mineral. Can't see that there is an exit there. The crate may block line of site, but also for aliens leaving the room. Seems like an inelegant solution.
Here is the first time I can see it, but I am moving so fast I don't notice it till I have already overshot it. Visually the map leads me towards those red lights. I want to go that way but I need to go to generators.
As you further detail mineral I really hope you fix this doorway in some way. Also, I love the new breakroom automation lane. Pump station is much better too.
@Nordic :
So the entrance of Connection is still hard to see ? I did tell @MasterG that this was an issue and he tuned down the lighting and add a light on the door.
Suggestion => maybe scaling the crate prop a little down so you can see the light above the Connection door a bit better. But I believe in the end, once people know the map and forget where the old entrances were, it won't be that much of an issue.
As for the results, like you said, low-skilled pub so it doesn't surprise me that aliens won both games, especially on a new map.
I would be interested in hearing what the TGNS has to say about it.
I can understand why in some cases Secu isn't that marines friendly, but I don't agree with Lockers being alien friendly at all.
Really glad people like the new changes !
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
It is a really hard balance to make the exit towards Generators from Mineral Processing visible enough for aliens. Something is definitely needed to break up the LoS but at the same time, like you guys state it is also vital that the exit is visible. It could be as simple as scaling down the crate, or even building something else in the way that isn't as intrusive to the LoS. Another solution could be to let players see the door between the wall and the crate so that the need to turn around the crate becomes more obvious. However I'm not sure if it would be a good idea or how to execute it well enough to not cause any other problems. I will experiment with it when I have time to work on the map some more.
Another thing I wanted to comment on is the great ability for crag hive on this map. You can put up hidden crags to heal rt's easily. You can heal generators rt with a crag in connection. You can heal drill site from rupture, or atop the platform. Marines do not check these locations. Pump control can be healed from behind the wall, although more easily found, it puts marines in a less defend-able position.
Slightly moving and resizing the crate might help. Maybe some sort of lighting that leads you might help too. with I hate to say this, but those ideas sound like easy band aid fixes. I would have to see it to see if it really helped, because maybe it is that easy. I just think that maybe there is a problem with the rooms design if you need to cover a doorway with a crate. The problem is map flow as much as it is balance. I can't really think of a solution. One idea I was toying with was rotating mineral 45 degrees sot he hive is on the north not west end of the map. Maybe even the room itself needs to redesigned.
Well, the crate is tied to Gen and Connection designs. You of all people should know how many changes these rooms came under in the last weeks/months. Several designs and entrances were tried pretty much everywhere. Rotating the hive room was an issue because of arcs from Leak and LoS from Connection.
And honestly (while I still agree this crate is a band aid fix) I think this map, compared to other maps (even officials) doesn't use that many artificial band aid/ns2_crate stuff. That might be what makes it marines friendly btw. When you take a look at Jambi, mini-crates everywhere to help ground cover and wall jumping. When you take a close look at it they are perfectly placed to wall jump, try going from docking to skylights and you'll see these boxes/mini-crates. It's artificial and bandaid-ish but it works.
Also when you spawn in Cargo (veil) both entrances are blocked off by HUGE crates. Take sub-sector (veil) or pipework (jambi) as well, how many times have you got lost finding the exit when you spawn, because there's nothing lighting-wise that tells you where the exit is. Even as a veteran you have to bring the map up sometimes to find the exit and not loose time.
So yeah, I agree, crates suck. But they work as intended.
I would be willing to see how rotating the whole room would work, although I think that will bring new stuff to deal with, but I think Min Pro is fine as it is. And if the solution is to scale a crate down and make lighting even more intuitive, it's fine. Because once you know the map, you don't get lost finding the exit anymore
I would love for the crate to be shrunk with better lighting to be a good enough fix. I will have to test when that is changed, however it is changed.
I just think it will be that easy. Learn the map is a cop out for bad map design. Sub sector on veil, I do struggle to get out of that room sometimes. Cargo I don't think is as good of an example because even though you can't see the doors, you want to go that way. They also fit the room very well. It is official, but I think custom maps should strive to be equal or better than official maps. Jambi although a good custom map, should not be the standard by which maps are made.
I don't even know if a 45 degree turn of mineral would help anything. It is just an idea I had. You would probably have to flip leak around to make that work too. A 45 degree turn might even make it so leak needs the crate instead of connection.
Official maps are full of holes, misaligned, textures and props, overlapping stuff, and non intuitive lighting. I took Veil and Jambi as examples but can find other examples of not that good design.
What I'm saying is on every single map when you play it for the first time, you won't understand how it connects, how everything is, where every door is and leads to, and not because of poor design and lighting, because it's the first time. Once you know an exit is there in Min Pro, I don't think you'll ever get lost again. if that's a one playthrough learning kind of think, I don't think it's poor design. I mean, I don't think it's that big of an issue after all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but MasterG's primary goal is to make it fun and interesting to play for comp, while providing the best finished product aesthetically-wise (if pub enjoy it it's even better). But if it doesn't fit the broken quality standards of official maps, I don't think that will prevent him or comp players to sleep. I don't even think it will bother pub players.
I cannot see a single ns2 map that has great design, great finition, no artificial stuff like crates, etc etc AT THE SAME TIME. Every map has design issues and if a crate is an answer that can help move forward, then I don't have an issue with it. As long as it plays great.
To me the only map that gets close to good quality in all fields is Biodome (because it doesn't take huge risks with a summit-like design).
So yeah aiming at the best possible quality and design is the way to go, and if a map needs a crate somewhere to not make the map broken, then do it. Ns2 is full of crates, on any map. Is that necessarily poor design ?
Another thing I wanted to comment on is the great ability for crag hive on this map. You can put up hidden crags to heal rt's easily. You can heal generators rt with a crag in connection. You can heal drill site from rupture, or atop the platform. Marines do not check these locations. Pump control can be healed from behind the wall, although more easily found, it puts marines in a less defend-able position.
The crag in Connection to heal Generators RT, now THAT is a problem IMO. Will have to check with my counsel and then I will look into this. If it needs to be fixed, maybe fix that can potentially help solving the damn crate issue in Mineral Processing as well. But no guarantees.
The other crags are hardly problems as the distace from the Drill Site RT to a potential crag in Rupture is basically non-existent. And a crag up top in Drill Site can in most cases be shot from down below, at least if you want your crag to count and heal the hive as well. It needs to be taken into consideration that all these RT locations are alien naturals and so they should be a bit easier for aliens to defend.
Another thing I wanted to comment on is the great ability for crag hive on this map. You can put up hidden crags to heal rt's easily. You can heal generators rt with a crag in connection. You can heal drill site from rupture, or atop the platform. Marines do not check these locations. Pump control can be healed from behind the wall, although more easily found, it puts marines in a less defend-able position.
The crag in Connection to heal Generators RT, now THAT is a problem IMO. Will have to check with my counsel and then I will look into this. If it needs to be fixed, maybe fix that can potentially help solving the damn crate issue in Mineral Processing as well. But no guarantees.
The other crags are hardly problems as the distace from the Drill Site RT to a potential crag in Rupture is basically non-existent. And a crag up top in Drill Site can in most cases be shot from down below, at least if you want your crag to count and heal the hive as well. It needs to be taken into consideration that all these RT locations are alien naturals and so they should be a bit easier for aliens to defend.
I did not actually say it, but I really love that you can heal from those positions. I like that you can have hidden crags like that. Connection might be a little op but generators is very strong for phase gates too.
Reminds me of crag in ET healing Mezzanine, or crag in Dome healing C-12. Not a huge issue imo as holding in Connection is probably easier than holding Gen itself, and also los to the crag from connection entrance is marines friendly enough.
edit : so many typos and mistakes in this sentence, geez
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Just did a walkthrough of your most recent changes. Feels really nice, especially that the new Pump Station (which is much better) and feels like a real room. Waiting also appears to be much better for gameplay.
Just some notes I have written down from our matches first. Some of these were my thoughts, but some were from others. The mistake I made was that I didn't differentiate when writing them down.
Thoughts from both our matches as Tau-9 including scrims against Chams and Titus
Mineral Processing
We prayed we would get Mineral Proc over Drill Site as the starting hive. I think this is due to all the line of sight blocking in the room, allowing us to box in marines the second they enter.
In that vein, I think the room is extremely claustrophobic due to its geo and props and yet deceivingly large due to the extension room where the hive is located.
From the south, the room requires you to essentially move into a position where there are four simultaneous corners to check, which double as bullet blockers against fades and lerks. The lifeform comment isn't a big deal, and in fact makes the room more fun to fight in, albeit much more difficult.
That said, one of those corners is that new blue crate, and I hate it because it gives marines four feet of space to move around while checking those corners.
The room itself acts as a system of funnels for movement (in a bad way), the first being the doorway to the hive chamber. While it blocks marines from shooting your upgrades and eggs, it unfortunately blocks you from escaping, and has the distinct disadvantage of trapping your own lifeforms like Fades, who are unable to escape from such a tight space. It wasn't fun watching one of Titus fades get essentially stuck in their hive unable to leave, nor was is fun being sieged from the other side of the room by rifles. I think opening up the hive area by using pillars/supports instead of walls would prove to be much better for gameplay.
The second funnel is the south entrance, which is a tiny doorway and path into connection. Feels extremely restrictive for movement on both sides.
Drill Site
The north entrance is really claustrophobic as well. I think I remember an instance where three marines were blown away by one or two lifeforms because of the corners they have to check, including both the upper area, and the lip of the doorway itself.
Similar to the blue crate comment in Min Proc, the space marines have to move while checking those corners is extremely limited, meaning that engagements are going to be very one sided.
The upper area, while cool, seems to not really serve a purpose, besides adding another corner to check. I don't think we utilized it once in our matches, and the enemy team did not either. I don't think it would offer any gain besides the minimal benefit of being a passive phase gate spot (as opposed to an active one in Pump Station which would be much better).
Thoughts on the new version and things you said
The Min Proc hive does appear arc-able, and I'm sure that it is, which is nice. Connection is much nicer for both sides.
Rooms feel like liveable space. This is really important.
Most of the rooms which were either too claustrophobic or too labyrinthine have been made accessible, and appear to be awesome to fight in.
Lockers feels great. It was fun to engage as marines, and I jumped up there as an onos and scared some people too. Good times. If it's really proving to be a problem, make them as mini pillars, similar to Docking's Lockers instead of an enormous single block, just use elevation to lead the marines if you go need to change it. I can see how the large shape which funnels marines (and raises walking time!) can be difficult to counter ambushes.
I think that the hidden crags are fine in those spots.
I also really like Generator's new RT placement and reorganization.
If you want to make this map official I'd suggest working on textures and prop models and such. Having that "look" that maps have is very important, theme up! Unfortunately, I know there aren't really any guidelines for that kind of thing (being, "you want your map in NS2?!") , but I hope we can start writing those up and stuff once I have more time.
Overall, it's really starting to shape up, and I'm really liking what I see. Keep it up!
Remenbers me off crag un ET healing Mezzanine, or crag in Dome healing C-12. Not a huge issue imo as holding in Connection is probably easier than holding Gen itself, and also los to the crag from connection entrance is marines friendly enough
Docking is good for this too, but my spots are too known. Both of generators naturals can be healed from behind a wall.
Reminds me of crag un ET healing Mezzanine, or crag in Dome healing C-12. Not a huge issue imo as holding in Connection is probably easier than holding Gen itself, and also los to the crag from connection entrance is marines friendly enough
Docking is good for this too, but my spots are too known. Both of generators naturals can be healed from behind a wall.
Comments
Some more specific feedback, when leaving mineral processing it is not intuitive on how to exit the room to generators. I found myself on multiple occasions accidentally passing that doorway.
Also from the tgns forums:
Why do marines need a second techpoint?
Also, bare in mind that the layout has changed, and the new update in coming very soon (probably on monday). MasterG is just waiting for the w6 nsl matches to be over before releasing the new version. The changes were discussed and built thanks to the help of comp players and routing should be more intuitive.
You'll now access Control through Automation only. Waiting has now a double door entrance into Automation, similar to Repair entrances into Hub. Stations is fully detailed, the corridor between Stations and Min Pro as well.
@Nordic : the orientation issues you experienced in Min Pro might have to do with the many changes the room has been through in the last few months, especially regarding the location of the Connector entrance. I have to admit that I muscle-memoried my way out of it a few times and ended up going straight into a wall, before realizing "oh wait the entrance is elsewhere now".
It's already the case on the marines natural expansion territory. And it's gonna stay this way, having vents in which marines can travel through in the upper side of the map were considered as issues by many players pub and comp, so this was changed. You can check the Secu vent, use the Lounge/Prod one and the Transfer/East Path if you wanna be sneaky, pinch, trap, ambush, or be faster (east path).
And as always, the map isn't too big, it used to be, but I couldn't disagree more with this statement. If the map was smaller, marines timings would be shorter and we would end up again in marines high pressure and aliens being on the defensive all the time, having to rely REALLY heavily on the lerks
Also, I agree and disagree and all that.
Mineral beta 3.40 change log:
- Broke up Mineral Processing - Generators vent into two vents that both connect to Connection. No longer OP for bile-bombing gorges.
- Dimmed lighting in Generators.
- Closed off the center part of Connection a little bit to give aliens less hiding spots. Still loads of spots to take cover though!
- Expanded East Path southwards and connected it to Automation closer to the entrance(to Automation) from Lockers. Removes the U-turn in East Path.
- Moved and rotated Break Room. It now connects to the north of Automation and goes further north to Pump Control. Removed its connection to Loading Bay.
- Opened up entrance to Automation from Waiting. Expanded Waiting slightly north.
- Opened up Automation to make the room more viable for marines zoning/blocking lanes.
- Widened Pump Control.
- Detailed Pump Station. Still keeps generally the same game flow as the previous version.
- Vent from Generators going westwards now connects to Break Room.
- Moved vent entrances in Storage/Loading Bay and added a connecting vent to Pump Control.
- Moved vent entrance in Transport.
- Removed the silly vent going from East Path to East Path(lol).
- Added new location, Leak, in the corridor between Pump Station and Mineral Processing.
- Probably something else that I forgot. And some other stuff as well!
Have fun!
. you forgot to add the new skybox to the update files
. the bright white lights on the closed doors in East Path and Control are a bit too bright imo.
. I know you said you were going to redo the lighting in Min Pro, but i'm still gonna put this out there : lighting in Min Pro doesn't fit with the other rooms in the North lane. Maybe tune everything down and add a light to the Connection entrance so it's easier to spot behind the crate. Screens :
- Toned down lighting on Mineral Processing to match the lighting of the rest of the north of the map. Added brighter lights above the doors in there to highlight them.
- Blocked off a small pit behind some pipes in Pump Station.
- Added the cover type railings around some pipes in Pump Station, like MV requested.
- Made the southern part of Pump Control less wide and added some cover to the more open side of it.
- Removed all vent ceilings from the commander view.
- Removed some other stuff around the map from the commander view.
- Added skybox materials to the correct folder!
- Added some neat detail to Lounge.
Also thanks to @UncleCrunch for the Asteroid Belt skybox. It works well with Mineral's story, which I haven't finished writing yet.
hole between waiting and loading bay
it looks like I can fly through there but I canÄt. you might want to shrink the gap between that scaffolding and the ceiling
Also. I fixed the stuff you noticed Mephilles. And a new version B341-MKII is out on the workshop.
New version soon
Cool, let me know eh?
Anyways, leaving mineral out to generator is a real pain. The map does not lead you that way. In fact it is very hard to see unless you look for it. I again kept running past it even though I was turning left because I know it is on the left. This time I brought pictures. With max FOV.
Just on the other side of the wall that separates the hive room from the rest of mineral. Can't see that there is an exit there. The crate may block line of site, but also for aliens leaving the room. Seems like an inelegant solution.
Here is the first time I can see it, but I am moving so fast I don't notice it till I have already overshot it. Visually the map leads me towards those red lights. I want to go that way but I need to go to generators.
As you further detail mineral I really hope you fix this doorway in some way. Also, I love the new breakroom automation lane. Pump station is much better too.
So the entrance of Connection is still hard to see ? I did tell @MasterG that this was an issue and he tuned down the lighting and add a light on the door.
Suggestion => maybe scaling the crate prop a little down so you can see the light above the Connection door a bit better. But I believe in the end, once people know the map and forget where the old entrances were, it won't be that much of an issue.
As for the results, like you said, low-skilled pub so it doesn't surprise me that aliens won both games, especially on a new map.
I would be interested in hearing what the TGNS has to say about it.
I can understand why in some cases Secu isn't that marines friendly, but I don't agree with Lockers being alien friendly at all.
Really glad people like the new changes !
Slightly moving and resizing the crate might help. Maybe some sort of lighting that leads you might help too. with I hate to say this, but those ideas sound like easy band aid fixes. I would have to see it to see if it really helped, because maybe it is that easy. I just think that maybe there is a problem with the rooms design if you need to cover a doorway with a crate. The problem is map flow as much as it is balance. I can't really think of a solution. One idea I was toying with was rotating mineral 45 degrees sot he hive is on the north not west end of the map. Maybe even the room itself needs to redesigned.
And honestly (while I still agree this crate is a band aid fix) I think this map, compared to other maps (even officials) doesn't use that many artificial band aid/ns2_crate stuff. That might be what makes it marines friendly btw. When you take a look at Jambi, mini-crates everywhere to help ground cover and wall jumping. When you take a close look at it they are perfectly placed to wall jump, try going from docking to skylights and you'll see these boxes/mini-crates. It's artificial and bandaid-ish but it works.
Also when you spawn in Cargo (veil) both entrances are blocked off by HUGE crates. Take sub-sector (veil) or pipework (jambi) as well, how many times have you got lost finding the exit when you spawn, because there's nothing lighting-wise that tells you where the exit is. Even as a veteran you have to bring the map up sometimes to find the exit and not loose time.
So yeah, I agree, crates suck. But they work as intended.
I would be willing to see how rotating the whole room would work, although I think that will bring new stuff to deal with, but I think Min Pro is fine as it is. And if the solution is to scale a crate down and make lighting even more intuitive, it's fine. Because once you know the map, you don't get lost finding the exit anymore
I just think it will be that easy. Learn the map is a cop out for bad map design. Sub sector on veil, I do struggle to get out of that room sometimes. Cargo I don't think is as good of an example because even though you can't see the doors, you want to go that way. They also fit the room very well. It is official, but I think custom maps should strive to be equal or better than official maps. Jambi although a good custom map, should not be the standard by which maps are made.
I don't even know if a 45 degree turn of mineral would help anything. It is just an idea I had. You would probably have to flip leak around to make that work too. A 45 degree turn might even make it so leak needs the crate instead of connection.
What I'm saying is on every single map when you play it for the first time, you won't understand how it connects, how everything is, where every door is and leads to, and not because of poor design and lighting, because it's the first time. Once you know an exit is there in Min Pro, I don't think you'll ever get lost again. if that's a one playthrough learning kind of think, I don't think it's poor design. I mean, I don't think it's that big of an issue after all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but MasterG's primary goal is to make it fun and interesting to play for comp, while providing the best finished product aesthetically-wise (if pub enjoy it it's even better). But if it doesn't fit the broken quality standards of official maps, I don't think that will prevent him or comp players to sleep. I don't even think it will bother pub players.
I cannot see a single ns2 map that has great design, great finition, no artificial stuff like crates, etc etc AT THE SAME TIME. Every map has design issues and if a crate is an answer that can help move forward, then I don't have an issue with it. As long as it plays great.
To me the only map that gets close to good quality in all fields is Biodome (because it doesn't take huge risks with a summit-like design).
So yeah aiming at the best possible quality and design is the way to go, and if a map needs a crate somewhere to not make the map broken, then do it. Ns2 is full of crates, on any map. Is that necessarily poor design ?
The crag in Connection to heal Generators RT, now THAT is a problem IMO. Will have to check with my counsel and then I will look into this. If it needs to be fixed, maybe fix that can potentially help solving the damn crate issue in Mineral Processing as well. But no guarantees.
The other crags are hardly problems as the distace from the Drill Site RT to a potential crag in Rupture is basically non-existent. And a crag up top in Drill Site can in most cases be shot from down below, at least if you want your crag to count and heal the hive as well. It needs to be taken into consideration that all these RT locations are alien naturals and so they should be a bit easier for aliens to defend.
edit : so many typos and mistakes in this sentence, geez
Just some notes I have written down from our matches first. Some of these were my thoughts, but some were from others. The mistake I made was that I didn't differentiate when writing them down.
Thoughts from both our matches as Tau-9 including scrims against Chams and Titus
Mineral Processing
Drill Site
Thoughts on the new version and things you said
Overall, it's really starting to shape up, and I'm really liking what I see. Keep it up!
Docking is good for this too, but my spots are too known. Both of generators naturals can be healed from behind a wall.