Just recorded a captains game on mineral. First round was pretty good. Early dominant marines that did not kill alien harvests resulting in alien win. Second game was a marine stomp practically. People are still skeptical about the map but seem more accepting of it.
Automation with no tp or rp seems popular. People liked the break room lane. Some common complaints from everyone was mineral is too big and easy to push as marine. Marines can kill rt from a long ways away in generators. I heard lots of complaints about pump control being too open and marine friendly. Also that alien natural are too far away, compared to how close marine naturals are. Corridors are too large was also said.
I will post the video when I cut it down and upload it. There was a lot of verbal feedback so I think it is really worth watching beyond my summary above.
Some common complaints from everyone was mineral is too big and easy to push as marine.
This seems like a contradiction to me but whatever
Maybe if I said it it a different way because I do agree with them that it is a problem. From both entrances to mineral you have a long line of sight to the RT. The entrance to mineral from the generators side has the longer line of sight out of the two but both are quite long. Once you do enter the hive room, from just next to the entrance you have long lines of sight to the hive and any alien who comes at you from the hive.
Red = unimportant line from screenshot I edited
Dark Blue = lines of sight to rt
Light Blue = Lines of sight to hive
A large part of this very vocal complaint came from the aliens being trapped in the mineral hive the 2nd round. Marines were very dominant, but took their time trying to kill the hive. So this simply exaggerated the problem. In other games I have recorded I have seen marines in mineral do tons of damage, but to a lesser extent that the 2nd round marine stomp.
To expand further than I did last night, aliens from both teams wanted more cover. I feel this is half haven't learned the map yet, and half needing more cover. I know you did add more cover in many places, but one of the main areas asked for cover is pump which is about to be reworked. Many complained about transport not having enough cover but I disagree. Lerks and fades can dominate that room. Skulks might have a little trouble though but I think it is mostly a learn the map problem for transport.
From comments last night, I can agree that alien naturals are a bit far away. I am not sure if this is a big issue or if it needs fixed. One person said pump station should be moved north a bit, but it already has the same timing as jambi. I am incomplete on my thoughts for this.
I always liked mineral, but with the automation changes and new break room lane I really like where it is at. We all know it needs improvement still but I feel happy my largest complaints have been fixed.
Okay so to answer on two "issues" you've brought up :
Maybe if I said it it a different way because I do agree with them that it is a problem. From both entrances to mineral you have a long line of sight to the RT. The entrance to mineral from the generators side has the longer line of sight out of the two but both are quite long. Once you do enter the hive room, from just next to the entrance you have long lines of sight to the hive and any alien who comes at you from the hive.
. This LoS to the hive has been changed with the last hotfix, not with the official update. It has been changed because LoS to the Hive was non existent, and it was very hard to actually push the hive without getting really close to it. As we reflected on that initial issue we brought up other maps and hive rooms. Take Summit, and you have huge LoS to any of the hives, Atrium being the summon since you have great LoS and open space with no cover.
In Mineral Processing, pushing that hive as marines, without Arcs was almost close to impossible, now it's more manageable and the room is full of cover for aliens to use, be sneaky, or heal around the hive. No one complained about Drill Site LoS to the hive, when it's as important as the one in Min Pro. When we discussed this matter of LoS in Min Pro, we thought it was more interesting to have a hive room more open and balanced compared to the other hive start spawn.
So I'm gonna ask a question, was the hive room (Min Pro) better before ? why ? to whom ?
Is the hive room better now ? why ? what lacks ? what needs to be done to make it even better balanced for both sides ?
Right now in this room, in terms of cover, there are pipes, railings, mini stairs, a crate and a barrel thingy (?)
ps : LoS to Drill Site RT is huge from Storage as well.
To expand further than I did last night, aliens from both teams wanted more cover. I feel this is half haven't learned the map yet, and half needing more cover. I know you did add more cover in many places, but one of the main areas asked for cover is pump which is about to be reworked. Many complained about transport not having enough cover but I disagree. Lerks and fades can dominate that room. Skulks might have a little trouble though but I think it is mostly a learn the map problem for transport.
. This is just ridiculous, Transport is probably the most alien sided room on the map xD
We also have to keep in mind that getting killed somewhere isn't necessarily the map's fault, the absence of cover or anything, sometimes you die because you had crap positionning, you were caught by surprise, you didn't engage well. I understand the frustration of dying stupidly and I sometimes even trashed official maps, complaining about how ridiculously designed was a room. So unless people give specific examples as to where cover is needed, why, and what type of cover should be added, I'm afraid there's not much G can do.
The map was played in several gathers (after the update, with new added cover), and I don't remember people complaining about cover at all.
Now understand @Nordic that if I'm playing devil's advocate it is only to get the better out of your suggestions and the feedback you bring from the TGNS server; so that the response (G's updates) can be as accurate as it can be. A lot of work has been done so far in that regard meaning feedback is taken into account. So keep up the amazing feedback and don't hesitate to suggest more precise stuff.
Example : Pump Control lacks cover : where ? exactly, ceiling, ground, pillars, center of the room, on the sides ? take into account the size of the room and how it could be made better.
I find it interested that I did not notice any differences in mineral just by looking at it. I only skim the change logs but I feel that is error on my part that I didn't see it in game. As much as my memory tells me mineral processing plays the same still I am willing to say it is a learn the map problem unless I can be more specific.
I do agree that transport has enough cover and is more a learn the map problem. People do keep bringing it up though. I will make sure to ask specific people where they want more cover and why as it comes up.
I have heard more specific feedback for pump control. I have had several people say there needs to be more cover on the ceiling. I don't really understand this myself. It is an alien natural and if your being defensive you usually aren't going to be on the ceiling. If you offensive you definitely will not be on the ceiling. I have noticed that on tgns aliens have typically had a really hard time getting a group of marines out of control. I will look for more specific feedback next game on that too.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2015
This is great guys keep it coming
Also going to bring some of my own thoughts in here.
I can provide before/after shots of MinPro if you want Nordic? The reasoning behind the change is pretty much what MV explained plus; to get a good shot at the hive in there when engaging with more than 1 marine(yes only one marine can use the long line of sight spots to the hive at a time afaik) the need to actually push into the room is there, not like before though when marines needed to push pretty much within a few meters of the hive, which was bad
I seriously don't understand why there are complaints about pump control, it's one of the most close quarters rooms in the entire map. The room also has 3 huge chunks(relative to room size) of cover in the ceiling and big pillar ish things for cover on the ground. I know the ceiling by the vent in pump controls entance stairs is very open, but the fact is that aliens aren't supposed to be able to engage with great success everywhere. There needs to be timing and wise choices in engagements. And choosing wisely where to fight would lead to fighting in the rt room itself, not in the stairs. If it's about pump station that is a completely different situation atm. And we all know that station is getting a serious overhaul asap. I mean just look at it, it's completely TRASH!
Transport is almost too OP for aliens, but since it's a natural for them I don't really think so. Storage however(right north of it you know) has less cover. I did address this a few patches ago by moving som crates around and adding others, many comp players told me it was a lot better and not really a problem anymore.
As far as cover goes elsewhere, I've tried to address the more obvious places. I guess pump stations(not control) needs a bit of ground cover here and there, I can take a look at it tonight. If anything a few temporary crates before the big redesign should help out a lot. Just keep in mind we are trying to balance this as well, not trying to make every single person who plays aliens not get shot(regardless of skill)
Thanks again for feeding me the thoughts of your(which you are a part of) community to me. I do appreciate it a lot, I just can't make everyone happy, because that wouldn't be balanced.
I am just providing a mix of my thoughts with what I am hearing a lot of. Pump control is probably the most complained about room and I don't see why myself. I am just passing it along. I don't think my video showed up correctly in the previous post. There was a lot of verbal feedback I think you might like to hear.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
And thank you for it. I didn't think it was all you. Any specifics about why pump control is complained about would be nice. I haven't checked out the video yet, but I will now! Thanks for posting.
Also going to bring some of my own thoughts in here.
(...)
Thanks again for feeding me the thoughts of your(which you are a part of) community to me. I do appreciate it a lot, I just can't make everyone happy, because that wouldn't be balanced.
Edit: tablet writing and some poor sentences.
I would have done some feed back but yesterday we witnessed a "server flash death" when Mineral was voted...
I still saw something. In the ready room, when i look down (under the orange arm) FPS drop to 70. There is nothing under except the "Occlusion geometry". maybe you are using props that are doing that. I know some of them to be FPS killer.
Also i wish for dark places to be a little more. It tends to be hard to use darkness as an ally.
Here is I believe the first game on Mineral this season :
Div 3 Gief Robot vs FunnyBubblers (advantage on GIEF from the get go, since they have way more experience). I haven't finished watching it so this is just objective information.
EDIT : wow, I just love what I saw from both teams. Early marines pressure, aliens responding well and fast to it. They managed to held on 'till the two lerks came out, then the fight was evened when fades came out. Really good game from both teams.
And G, you've got yourself a three hives Mineral game. 'grats
EDIT 2 :
oh and game number 2, reloc Production, shotgun rush Min Pro xD
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
I only watched the shotgun rush on MinPro round, will watch the other one later.
But I feel like the rush round sort of confirms that MinPro actually is better to push for marines but isn't too hard to defend as aliens. Also we see the marines not sticking to the doorways, even when they have rifles. It looks pretty good imo. We will see with more games though:)
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
After playing a number of rounds on it, I think that Security seriously needs to be opened up. The fact that as an alien you can see marines coming and from which side of the glass, the claustrophobia of all of it, is horrible for marines. Bad for a natural.
Also the RT attached to Transportation / Storage has a similar problem. I'd open that area up more, since you can lame the crap out of tunnels there and even phase gates. Maybe even removing the doorway and the doorway's wall would help.
I agree about Transport. About Security, I understand the claustrophobic feel, but in terms of gameplay I felt that it's an alright room for marines. And since the RT is close to marines spawn, it was easily defendable. What do you suggest Zavaro ? removing the central piece of glass ? and leaving the rows of seats, so you can jump above them as marines ? I'd agree to that, and you would keep ground cover for skulks, so that you can't shoot skulks from the very top of the stairs
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
I can agree that Transport needs a facelift. Not quite sure what to do about it yet and I'll have to keep it like it is until at least week 6 of the NSL season. Not sure if it will be played in semis/finals(probably not) so that's a factor as well.
About Security I'm not sure. I don't want to remove the center piece glass wall. I don't think the benches alone can provide ground cover for skulks due to the height of the escalators. What I could do is give the center piece a little more room on the north/south sides to try to alleviate the claustrophobic feel. It should be possible now that I made more space between Security and Loading Bay. However it would take some time to make the adjustments and I'm not sure if it's a good idea mid-season(but possibly can be done if enough competitive players approve of it).
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Hello again everyone! I've been working a lot on different parts around Mineral the last couple of weeks to give it an update that will improve the map overall. It's still not quite there, but it's starting to show some real promise(I hope?).
I've taken in to consideration all the feedback that I have received and made changes in a manner that compromises between different views. In other words, not everyone who has given me feedback are getting exactly what they want, because what is better for the map counts more than one person's opinion.
Disclaimer(for NSL!): I'm sorry for doing this update now, I would like to be able to do it between the season weeks 3 and 6 according to the NSL schedule of when matches are to be played. What I didn't realize was that a lot of matches seem to be played at other dates etctec. However, before complaining at least read the change log under and refer to the new minimap. Your strats should still work perfectly fine! I may also have forgotten something in the changelog below, but if something was left out it probably is insignificant.
I recently posted an update video(NSL forums). Most of what's in it is still accurate, but there have been made a few changes to the things mentioned in the video as well as some other new stuff. But enough rambling, here is the change log for Mineral beta version 3.30:
- Redesigned Connection(between Gen and MinPro), giving it a new entrance to Mineral Processing. Enhances game flow through the area and provides aliens with some better cover, an ARC spot for marines and does not allow the MinPro RT to be shot from outside the room. Also requires marines to push more into the room to shoot the hive.
- Widened the hive area in Mineral Processing(north/south) to give marines a better change in pushes.
- Removed vents above the tech point in Mineral Processing.
- Re-positioned Generators RT to make it more viable as a first natural drop for aliens when spawning in Mineral Processing.
- Made vent between Transfer and East Path easier to jump into for marines(from Transfer).
- Moved power node in Lockers and moved the RT in to the actual room.
- Made a new power node and location name between Drill Site and Storage, is now named "Repair". Also redesigned the area!
- Redesigned vent from Drill Site to Repair, entrance is now above and behind the hive in Drill Site(screenshot further down!). Vent is now faster and less tedious to use.
- Added some hive cover(grates) in Drill Site as well as switching out most railings in the room to plated ones, giving lower lifeforms better cover on the ground.
- Moved Repair, Storage and Transport slightly westwards.
- Slightly redesigned the size and flow of movement through Loading Bay. Area should play mostly like before, but entrances towards Break Room and Transport have "changed" a little bit.
- Moved Pump Control a tiny bit north. No major timing differences but puts it a bit closer to the hive locations in Drill Site and Mineral Processing(4 cysts).
- Moved Transport RT to Storage and moved the Storage power node north to compensate.
- Moved vent entrance in Transport(towards Loading Bay) south a little to compensate for the slight redesign in Loading.
- Added from Repair, entering Transport where the RT used to be, and opened up the wall in to said area.
- Added an extra "cyst lane" in Pump Station to help aliens keep the cyst connection between Drill Site and Mineral Processing. Also avoids the location being a super OP choke point for marines to abuse.
- Blocked off the underside of the escalators in Security, no longer possible for anyone to go under the stairs.
- Moved vent entrance in Production slightly down, no longer possible to shoot a potential hive from this vent.
- Moved vent entrances in Automation down on the wall, should no longer be possible for marines to enter these. At least not alone.
Any of the changes stated above should not be a HUGE game changer for any of the teams, but a lot of the changes made were to favor aliens a bit more in certain areas. The general flow of the map remains mostly the same, the only exception is the slight change of flow through Loading Bay and Connection.
Guide to the new vent in Drill Site:
New layout:
NSL: Again, I'm sorry about this update coming now, but because week 6 official start date is just over one week away I need to at least give the teams playing their matches from the 19th a chance to study the new changes. Again, none of this is a game changer. Just smaller and larger balance fixes based on what I've seen in games and the feedback received. Thanks for your understanding!
I want to agree and disagree at the same time. Resources balance wise, no it does not no an RT. We've already been over this, and people don't need a resnode to use Hub. I do agree that Hub and Auto are not the same things, but so far people haven't figured out a good way to use Automation (in the week 3 comp matches). It still remains the main lane to prevent aliens from bypassing marines.
If you put the RT back in Auto, that means basically 5 RTs for marines : base, Secu, Lockers, Production and Auto. Not even hard to defend.
Auto is kind of closed off (although you have 4 different entrances + 2 vents) and it doesn't work exactly like Hub on Tram, but it still is a pretty strong location to lane block, and prevent resbiting or base rushes. Lane blocking is also about just sitting around doing nothing in crucial moments and crucial places, where there is nothing else to do or build.
difference with hub and auto though is hub has a dominating presence on the map also repair and elevator are opposite each other and directly connected to hub. Hub is also a marine friendly room were as automation is more in favor of aliens. Automation isnt so direct and doesnt connect directly to a tech point. It was positioned to be a tech point and without the tech serves no purpose and isnt connected directly to anything of interest.
Its still the centre of the map but the way the map is desgined means that the centre isnt so important
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
I do not agree that Automation is not an important room. Not sure how that can be stated to be honest. It has an almost direct connection to Generators through east path, it's not a long run room to room. It also has a fairly short run distance to Pump Control through Break Room. The run time down to Storage isn't long either last time I checked. All of these nodes are alien naturals and you will see a flow of aliens going through those locations a lot. In other words the room has a very good basis for further pushes on all alien naturals. Sure, there are other ways to get to places for aliens, but Automation still remains the main place for marines to hold their lanes because rotation between marine naturals(Security/Lockers) is fairly short(even shorter now after the movement of Lockers RT). Holding Automation is holding 4-5 possible entry points for further alien presence in the south.
Put one PG in Automation and one PG in Pump Station and you've got a triangle that can hold an entire side of the map(the side depending on which hive(s) the aliens have), given that you place your marines right and time your pushes accordingly.
Putting a resource node in Automation is going to screw up the economy balance towards marines(again) and give very one-sided games. Not to mention that with the current routing of Security/Waiting/Automation and Lockers/Automation in relation to the resource nodes there you will have three nodes spread on a timing of less than 15 seconds for marines. This would be super OP and the Production lane would be useless for marines, again.
Also saying that it was positioned to be a tech point is wrong. It was positioned to be the "middle" of the map and that happened to be a tech point with a resource node up until recently. The room, as explained above, still serves its purpose as an important center in Mineral. Removing the tech and resource just made it less powerful.
marines are best off taking production and loading bay.
failing to get production is going to be a tough fight for marines if they also failed to get drill site. In this situation marines need to get automation and transport. But its a difficult fight if you let aliens settle in the 2 free tech points. If aliens start in drill site and the rines dont push for production early then they are in trouble.
This is the big issue i have found with eclipse and my own map hydra. A 4 tech point map means there are only 2 places of significance on the map. If 1 teams fails to get 1 of them early then the end is usually inevitable. Veil has 3 places of interest because a double res is an important location and saves the map from suffering the same issue.
I agree with MasterG. If automation had at rt it would make a strong marine bias. I argued in this thread in the past that automation was far too strong. Now I think it is in a good place. It is strong for lane blocking and res harassment for both teams, but to claim it first you must trade getting resources or another tp.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2015
Change log:
- Fixed gorge tunnel spot under catwalk in Drill Site(again), hopefully it sticks this time!
- Tried fixing a few stuck spots around the map(East Path -> Transfer vent, some boxes in Repair)
- Removed one of the ceiling beams in Lounge and raised the others to avoid having too many hiding spots for skulks.
- Re-scaled some doors to avoid "ledges" on top of them, now cr4zy's horrible fade shouldn't land on them any more.
- Redid Connection slightly to remove some alien hiding spots. Fewer corners to check for marines.
- Changed entry points for the vent in Generators/Mineral Processing. Also split the vent in two, aliens need to expose themselves in Connection to get all the way through.
- Moved around some crates in Storage to help aliens get in to the room from Repair.
Probably some more stuff I forgot. Check it out in game. Map is still the same other than these very small changes/fixes.
Heads up though, 1-2 weeks before NSL finals I will be releasing a new update to Mineral that changes the layout and flow of the map in a big way. More details on this later as the plan is still being worked out!
Comments
Automation with no tp or rp seems popular. People liked the break room lane. Some common complaints from everyone was mineral is too big and easy to push as marine. Marines can kill rt from a long ways away in generators. I heard lots of complaints about pump control being too open and marine friendly. Also that alien natural are too far away, compared to how close marine naturals are. Corridors are too large was also said.
I will post the video when I cut it down and upload it. There was a lot of verbal feedback so I think it is really worth watching beyond my summary above.
Maybe if I said it it a different way because I do agree with them that it is a problem. From both entrances to mineral you have a long line of sight to the RT. The entrance to mineral from the generators side has the longer line of sight out of the two but both are quite long. Once you do enter the hive room, from just next to the entrance you have long lines of sight to the hive and any alien who comes at you from the hive.
Red = unimportant line from screenshot I edited
Dark Blue = lines of sight to rt
Light Blue = Lines of sight to hive
A large part of this very vocal complaint came from the aliens being trapped in the mineral hive the 2nd round. Marines were very dominant, but took their time trying to kill the hive. So this simply exaggerated the problem. In other games I have recorded I have seen marines in mineral do tons of damage, but to a lesser extent that the 2nd round marine stomp.
To expand further than I did last night, aliens from both teams wanted more cover. I feel this is half haven't learned the map yet, and half needing more cover. I know you did add more cover in many places, but one of the main areas asked for cover is pump which is about to be reworked. Many complained about transport not having enough cover but I disagree. Lerks and fades can dominate that room. Skulks might have a little trouble though but I think it is mostly a learn the map problem for transport.
From comments last night, I can agree that alien naturals are a bit far away. I am not sure if this is a big issue or if it needs fixed. One person said pump station should be moved north a bit, but it already has the same timing as jambi. I am incomplete on my thoughts for this.
I always liked mineral, but with the automation changes and new break room lane I really like where it is at. We all know it needs improvement still but I feel happy my largest complaints have been fixed.
Uploading the video now.
In Mineral Processing, pushing that hive as marines, without Arcs was almost close to impossible, now it's more manageable and the room is full of cover for aliens to use, be sneaky, or heal around the hive. No one complained about Drill Site LoS to the hive, when it's as important as the one in Min Pro. When we discussed this matter of LoS in Min Pro, we thought it was more interesting to have a hive room more open and balanced compared to the other hive start spawn.
So I'm gonna ask a question, was the hive room (Min Pro) better before ? why ? to whom ?
Is the hive room better now ? why ? what lacks ? what needs to be done to make it even better balanced for both sides ?
Right now in this room, in terms of cover, there are pipes, railings, mini stairs, a crate and a barrel thingy (?)
ps : LoS to Drill Site RT is huge from Storage as well.
. This is just ridiculous, Transport is probably the most alien sided room on the map xD
We also have to keep in mind that getting killed somewhere isn't necessarily the map's fault, the absence of cover or anything, sometimes you die because you had crap positionning, you were caught by surprise, you didn't engage well. I understand the frustration of dying stupidly and I sometimes even trashed official maps, complaining about how ridiculously designed was a room. So unless people give specific examples as to where cover is needed, why, and what type of cover should be added, I'm afraid there's not much G can do.
The map was played in several gathers (after the update, with new added cover), and I don't remember people complaining about cover at all.
Now understand @Nordic that if I'm playing devil's advocate it is only to get the better out of your suggestions and the feedback you bring from the TGNS server; so that the response (G's updates) can be as accurate as it can be. A lot of work has been done so far in that regard meaning feedback is taken into account. So keep up the amazing feedback and don't hesitate to suggest more precise stuff.
Example : Pump Control lacks cover : where ? exactly, ceiling, ground, pillars, center of the room, on the sides ? take into account the size of the room and how it could be made better.
I find it interested that I did not notice any differences in mineral just by looking at it. I only skim the change logs but I feel that is error on my part that I didn't see it in game. As much as my memory tells me mineral processing plays the same still I am willing to say it is a learn the map problem unless I can be more specific.
I do agree that transport has enough cover and is more a learn the map problem. People do keep bringing it up though. I will make sure to ask specific people where they want more cover and why as it comes up.
I have heard more specific feedback for pump control. I have had several people say there needs to be more cover on the ceiling. I don't really understand this myself. It is an alien natural and if your being defensive you usually aren't going to be on the ceiling. If you offensive you definitely will not be on the ceiling. I have noticed that on tgns aliens have typically had a really hard time getting a group of marines out of control. I will look for more specific feedback next game on that too.
Also going to bring some of my own thoughts in here.
I can provide before/after shots of MinPro if you want Nordic? The reasoning behind the change is pretty much what MV explained plus; to get a good shot at the hive in there when engaging with more than 1 marine(yes only one marine can use the long line of sight spots to the hive at a time afaik) the need to actually push into the room is there, not like before though when marines needed to push pretty much within a few meters of the hive, which was bad
I seriously don't understand why there are complaints about pump control, it's one of the most close quarters rooms in the entire map. The room also has 3 huge chunks(relative to room size) of cover in the ceiling and big pillar ish things for cover on the ground. I know the ceiling by the vent in pump controls entance stairs is very open, but the fact is that aliens aren't supposed to be able to engage with great success everywhere. There needs to be timing and wise choices in engagements. And choosing wisely where to fight would lead to fighting in the rt room itself, not in the stairs. If it's about pump station that is a completely different situation atm. And we all know that station is getting a serious overhaul asap. I mean just look at it, it's completely TRASH!
Transport is almost too OP for aliens, but since it's a natural for them I don't really think so. Storage however(right north of it you know) has less cover. I did address this a few patches ago by moving som crates around and adding others, many comp players told me it was a lot better and not really a problem anymore.
As far as cover goes elsewhere, I've tried to address the more obvious places. I guess pump stations(not control) needs a bit of ground cover here and there, I can take a look at it tonight. If anything a few temporary crates before the big redesign should help out a lot. Just keep in mind we are trying to balance this as well, not trying to make every single person who plays aliens not get shot(regardless of skill)
Thanks again for feeding me the thoughts of your(which you are a part of) community to me. I do appreciate it a lot, I just can't make everyone happy, because that wouldn't be balanced.
Edit: tablet writing and some poor sentences.
I would have done some feed back but yesterday we witnessed a "server flash death" when Mineral was voted...
I still saw something. In the ready room, when i look down (under the orange arm) FPS drop to 70. There is nothing under except the "Occlusion geometry". maybe you are using props that are doing that. I know some of them to be FPS killer.
Also i wish for dark places to be a little more. It tends to be hard to use darkness as an ally.
Div 3 Gief Robot vs FunnyBubblers (advantage on GIEF from the get go, since they have way more experience). I haven't finished watching it so this is just objective information.
EDIT : wow, I just love what I saw from both teams. Early marines pressure, aliens responding well and fast to it. They managed to held on 'till the two lerks came out, then the fight was evened when fades came out. Really good game from both teams.
And G, you've got yourself a three hives Mineral game. 'grats
EDIT 2 :
oh and game number 2, reloc Production, shotgun rush Min Pro xD
But I feel like the rush round sort of confirms that MinPro actually is better to push for marines but isn't too hard to defend as aliens. Also we see the marines not sticking to the doorways, even when they have rifles. It looks pretty good imo. We will see with more games though:)
Also the RT attached to Transportation / Storage has a similar problem. I'd open that area up more, since you can lame the crap out of tunnels there and even phase gates. Maybe even removing the doorway and the doorway's wall would help.
About Security I'm not sure. I don't want to remove the center piece glass wall. I don't think the benches alone can provide ground cover for skulks due to the height of the escalators. What I could do is give the center piece a little more room on the north/south sides to try to alleviate the claustrophobic feel. It should be possible now that I made more space between Security and Loading Bay. However it would take some time to make the adjustments and I'm not sure if it's a good idea mid-season(but possibly can be done if enough competitive players approve of it).
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/480444/description
I've taken in to consideration all the feedback that I have received and made changes in a manner that compromises between different views. In other words, not everyone who has given me feedback are getting exactly what they want, because what is better for the map counts more than one person's opinion.
Disclaimer(for NSL!): I'm sorry for doing this update now, I would like to be able to do it between the season weeks 3 and 6 according to the NSL schedule of when matches are to be played. What I didn't realize was that a lot of matches seem to be played at other dates etctec. However, before complaining at least read the change log under and refer to the new minimap. Your strats should still work perfectly fine! I may also have forgotten something in the changelog below, but if something was left out it probably is insignificant.
I recently posted an update video(NSL forums). Most of what's in it is still accurate, but there have been made a few changes to the things mentioned in the video as well as some other new stuff. But enough rambling, here is the change log for Mineral beta version 3.30:
- Redesigned Connection(between Gen and MinPro), giving it a new entrance to Mineral Processing. Enhances game flow through the area and provides aliens with some better cover, an ARC spot for marines and does not allow the MinPro RT to be shot from outside the room. Also requires marines to push more into the room to shoot the hive.
- Widened the hive area in Mineral Processing(north/south) to give marines a better change in pushes.
- Removed vents above the tech point in Mineral Processing.
- Re-positioned Generators RT to make it more viable as a first natural drop for aliens when spawning in Mineral Processing.
- Made vent between Transfer and East Path easier to jump into for marines(from Transfer).
- Moved power node in Lockers and moved the RT in to the actual room.
- Made a new power node and location name between Drill Site and Storage, is now named "Repair". Also redesigned the area!
- Redesigned vent from Drill Site to Repair, entrance is now above and behind the hive in Drill Site(screenshot further down!). Vent is now faster and less tedious to use.
- Added some hive cover(grates) in Drill Site as well as switching out most railings in the room to plated ones, giving lower lifeforms better cover on the ground.
- Moved Repair, Storage and Transport slightly westwards.
- Slightly redesigned the size and flow of movement through Loading Bay. Area should play mostly like before, but entrances towards Break Room and Transport have "changed" a little bit.
- Moved Pump Control a tiny bit north. No major timing differences but puts it a bit closer to the hive locations in Drill Site and Mineral Processing(4 cysts).
- Moved Transport RT to Storage and moved the Storage power node north to compensate.
- Moved vent entrance in Transport(towards Loading Bay) south a little to compensate for the slight redesign in Loading.
- Added from Repair, entering Transport where the RT used to be, and opened up the wall in to said area.
- Added an extra "cyst lane" in Pump Station to help aliens keep the cyst connection between Drill Site and Mineral Processing. Also avoids the location being a super OP choke point for marines to abuse.
- Blocked off the underside of the escalators in Security, no longer possible for anyone to go under the stairs.
- Moved vent entrance in Production slightly down, no longer possible to shoot a potential hive from this vent.
- Moved vent entrances in Automation down on the wall, should no longer be possible for marines to enter these. At least not alone.
Any of the changes stated above should not be a HUGE game changer for any of the teams, but a lot of the changes made were to favor aliens a bit more in certain areas. The general flow of the map remains mostly the same, the only exception is the slight change of flow through Loading Bay and Connection.
Guide to the new vent in Drill Site:
New layout:
NSL: Again, I'm sorry about this update coming now, but because week 6 official start date is just over one week away I need to at least give the teams playing their matches from the 19th a chance to study the new changes. Again, none of this is a game changer. Just smaller and larger balance fixes based on what I've seen in games and the feedback received. Thanks for your understanding!
If you put the RT back in Auto, that means basically 5 RTs for marines : base, Secu, Lockers, Production and Auto. Not even hard to defend.
Auto is kind of closed off (although you have 4 different entrances + 2 vents) and it doesn't work exactly like Hub on Tram, but it still is a pretty strong location to lane block, and prevent resbiting or base rushes. Lane blocking is also about just sitting around doing nothing in crucial moments and crucial places, where there is nothing else to do or build.
Its still the centre of the map but the way the map is desgined means that the centre isnt so important
Put one PG in Automation and one PG in Pump Station and you've got a triangle that can hold an entire side of the map(the side depending on which hive(s) the aliens have), given that you place your marines right and time your pushes accordingly.
Putting a resource node in Automation is going to screw up the economy balance towards marines(again) and give very one-sided games. Not to mention that with the current routing of Security/Waiting/Automation and Lockers/Automation in relation to the resource nodes there you will have three nodes spread on a timing of less than 15 seconds for marines. This would be super OP and the Production lane would be useless for marines, again.
Also saying that it was positioned to be a tech point is wrong. It was positioned to be the "middle" of the map and that happened to be a tech point with a resource node up until recently. The room, as explained above, still serves its purpose as an important center in Mineral. Removing the tech and resource just made it less powerful.
marines are best off taking production and loading bay.
failing to get production is going to be a tough fight for marines if they also failed to get drill site. In this situation marines need to get automation and transport. But its a difficult fight if you let aliens settle in the 2 free tech points. If aliens start in drill site and the rines dont push for production early then they are in trouble.
This is the big issue i have found with eclipse and my own map hydra. A 4 tech point map means there are only 2 places of significance on the map. If 1 teams fails to get 1 of them early then the end is usually inevitable. Veil has 3 places of interest because a double res is an important location and saves the map from suffering the same issue.
well it serves a purpose but its no more than loading bay serves a purpose.
B3.31:
- Fixed some minor holes(lines where it was possible to see the skybox through geometry) in Pump Control and Connection.
- Built custom collision on the drill heads hanging in the ceiling of Repair for better alien movement flow through the ceiling part of the room.
- Fixed some black spots(lighting) in Pump Control and Pump Station.
- Removed some geometry from commander view in Pump Station that was forgot when adding the cyst lane in the previous update.
- Fixed gorge tunnel spot under catwalk in Drill Site(again), hopefully it sticks this time!
- Tried fixing a few stuck spots around the map(East Path -> Transfer vent, some boxes in Repair)
- Removed one of the ceiling beams in Lounge and raised the others to avoid having too many hiding spots for skulks.
- Re-scaled some doors to avoid "ledges" on top of them, now cr4zy's horrible fade shouldn't land on them any more.
- Redid Connection slightly to remove some alien hiding spots. Fewer corners to check for marines.
- Changed entry points for the vent in Generators/Mineral Processing. Also split the vent in two, aliens need to expose themselves in Connection to get all the way through.
- Moved around some crates in Storage to help aliens get in to the room from Repair.
Probably some more stuff I forgot. Check it out in game. Map is still the same other than these very small changes/fixes.
Heads up though, 1-2 weeks before NSL finals I will be releasing a new update to Mineral that changes the layout and flow of the map in a big way. More details on this later as the plan is still being worked out!