MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Thanks for the video. Watched it, and the teams weren't exactly balanced. I did catch the comment about the vent in Mineral Processing though. That one is on the next to-do list. Other than that, not much useful information. Written feedback from anyone who played would be great!
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Mineral Beta 1.06 is out on the workshop!
Change log:
- Re-designed ventilation from Mineral Processing to Generators. It has different entry points and is shorter now.
- Added vent between Production and Lounge. Marines can enter it from Lounge(without boosting). Crouching through the vent takes longer than running for marines.
- Re-designed and detailed Stasis Chamber.
- Fixed some commander invisible props so the don't show on the minimap as well.
I looked into the vent in Pump Station/Drill Site and determined that it's not worth the work needed to change it. I would need to redo a lot of the rock walls + other geometry and my custom collision in Drill Site to make it work.
You can place a structure in the generators in Generators. I think it has to do with the fact that you put them in commander invisible on the last update
The only working strategy I know of with near equal teams is to RUSH automation. My experience may be limited, but if you don't hold automation you tend to lose. Are there any other working strats?
All in all, I feel this map is too focused on automation even worse than veil is focused on nano.
Automation is important for marines yeah. For aliens, meh. You can get to Security through Loading Bay from both Mineral and Drill Site. You can go to Lockers through Automation, Security and Production. Lane-blocking wise it's far more interesting to hold Generators or Loading Bay for marines (not as easy as Automation I agree) because these two rooms allow marines to block two lanes.
When you think about Hub or Crossroads they're as important as Automation, although Automation might be too isolated, not enough open. Maybe a vent from the right of Automation to Transfer or from West Route to Transfer could solve that issue. In Crossroads for example you are able to bypass marines using vents.
Nevertheless each map has its unique features, so I won't be too worry about that.
Automation is important for marines, but it gives almost no map control. It's just mostly to prevent aliens from getting it. The rule is never let Cross or Hub to the aliens. Generators and Loading Bay are far more important imo. If you don't block these lines, you are open to res bitting and base rushes quite easily.
Mineral tended to be alien friendly, then it became more Marines sided. Now that there are more useful and coherent vents, I guess that kind of even things a bit. This of course needs further testing.
Relocation to Automation is strong, but then again, this strat hasn't been tried that often, so aliens weren't really prepare and didn't know how to react to it. The standard strat on Mineral and on most maps is to block every lane and apply pressure on alien naturals. ARC strats in Pump Stations can be pretty powerful too. I don't know, this map hasn't been played enough to have seen that many different strats. I've seen Pgs first on a 6v6 game, but as usual it kind of suck. Mostly because you don't have upgrades to keep pushing effectively past the 6-8 minutes mark (lerks/fades) and that the travel times aren't that long to cover.
You mention lane blocking from loading bay or generators. I feel that if you hold automation it is easy enough to then hold loading bay and generators just because of proximity. Loading bay is right next to automation. Generators is a bit more distant but not really an issue.
In my experience as marine, you claim automation and then proceed to lane block loading bay and generators while attempting to kill alien naturals.
In my experience as alien, you claim automation and lane block loading bay and lockers while trying to kill marine naturals. You can't always stop marines at lockers so you will hold them at generators and automation.
Obviously if you fail to win engagements and kill rt's in either scenario you lose, but with near even teams it becomes more a matter of location than skill.
In my experience, the team that holds automation wins.
On summit, crossroads is strong but is not a be all end all as automation has been for me. I do admit I am not the most experienced with the map and have been playing it occasionally with near skilled regulars on TGNS servers.
Maybe you are right that a simple vent could open another lane resolving this issue but I feel it may be more systemic than that. Or maybe I have not played the map enough.
You can place a structure in the generators in Generators. I think it has to do with the fact that you put them in commander invisible on the last update
There is an easy fix for that. Will have it in the next version, or release a hotfix if I feel like the next version is a bit far away. Thanks for noticing.
Thanks for other feedback guys it really means a lot. I agree that Automation is powerful and I feel that it should be. But it shouldn't be too powerful. A lot of its power I think comes from the areas around it(East Path/Loading Bay/Security) still having no detailing and viable places for Aliens to engage properly. So that is next on the list in trying to balance it out. I believe it will help tremendously with more cover/hiding spots. If it doesn't help enough a vent between Transfer and Automation or East Path could be interesting to try. Just need to make sure that a gorge can't reach the tech point with bile bomb from it, which shouldn't be much of a problem.
Another thing to note Nordic, is that I'm firstly trying to balance the map around competitive 6vs6 play. Not sure what the TGNS servers are in terms of player count, but it's worth mentioning that the map may not work too well with higher player count. At least not yet.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2014
Thanks @Keats for the report. I did know about it from before but was too lazy to do anything about it.
I just released a new version though so enjoy that!
Mineral Beta 1.07 Change log:
- Detailed the small corridor between Production and Lounge, renamed it to Water Flow B.
- Fixed stuck issue in Ready Room on the Join Marine platform.
- Removed ledge in East Path, increases Marine run time from Automation to Generators by 2 seconds.
- Added vent in East Path instead of the ledge. Marines can use it one way(from Automation side), but it adds 2-3 more seconds to travel time.
- Detailed East Path.
As I was going from Surface to Lockers I noticed something weird.
Aesthetically speaking, this edge feels weird, like it is a clear cut, on one side you have a trim but not on the other side. At the bottom you also have two different trims that connects weirdly. Here's something to fuel your OCD issues xD
The devil's in the details.
Ah, you wanted feedback ? Here you go, work more, work harder goddammit
People are having a lot of fun on this map and don't complain about its layout, about the room's design, props placement etc...
I think it's a sign of a healthy map. You're on the right tracks but you already know that. Keep up the great work
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited November 2014
The map is quite big with long hallways, it seems quite marine friendly every time I have played it. It seems to end the same way every time, with marines dominating the aliens. I know it's a WIP, but keep in mind to try and have a general theme, not a bunch of different props that don't really match.
The map is quite big with long hallways, it seems quite marine friendly every time I hve played it. It seems to end the same way every gay, with marines dominating the aliens. I know it's a WIP, but keep in mind to try and have a general theme, not a bunch of different props that don't really match.
The map is quite big with long hallways, it seems quite marine friendly every time I hve played it. It seems to end the same way every gay, with marines dominating the aliens. I know it's a WIP, but keep in mind to try and have a general theme, not a bunch of different props that don't really match.
The map is quite big with long hallways, it seems quite marine friendly every time I hve played it. It seems to end the same way every gay, with marines dominating the aliens.
Have you played it recently ?
Yes, many times, ends the same way every time
Weird because I've played a lot on this map recently (since the new versions came out, without the annoying corridors) during 6v6 and if the map seems slightly marines favored, it doesn't always end in a stomp or even a win for them. I've seen lots of aliens wins on that map. I've even seen an alien relocate to the center of the map.
I know it's a WIP, but keep in mind to try and have a general theme, not a bunch of different props that don't really match.
Different props that don't really match ? what are you talking about ?
The finished areas are Rupture, Pump Control, Production, Stasis Chambers, Surface, Automation, Generators, East Path, Drill Site. The other parts are full WIP except for the general layout.
The props in wip rooms are there so that the map is still playable while it's a WIP.
The map is big ? hmmm not really, not at all even. Since the big reworking it's shrunk down a lot. Now it's tinier than say jambi, biodome, mineshaft, eclipse, etc, etc ... I don't see an issue. I think travel times are a bit too short even, that's why it's marines sided atm. But it's that way for a specific reason. Bceause it was too big and had too many corridors. Travel times were aweful, marines were'nt able to push the aliens naturals at all, so ... I personnaly think big map = aliens will fuck you over.
I really don't get what you're trying to say. Alternative lanes are stupid (look at Descent, it's insane) and artificial. If you look at Tram, three lanes, no alternative stuff, just smart vents. Well I gotta eat so I'm posting this as is, but you get what I'm trying to say, I hope
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Now it may help to define what you mean by recently. It's a pretty wide term and could mean 2 months ago for all I know.
As far as long corridors go I know of one that I also think is way too long. And that is the current stairway between Automation/Loading Bay. Which others are too long? I still haven't found any competitive players that have complained about line of sight other than the one I've mentioned or in areas that are pretty much greybox(and mostly not even there do they complain). Not sure on the settings you have played the map in @SamusDroid, but from the general games I have witnessed of SCC or other public play tends to have stacked teams.
Map size, yeah, like MV said. I can think of at least 3 official maps that are larger by a mile. And they also have many more long annoying corridors. Line of sight is something I try to pay a lot of attention to and there is a lot of thought going into every decision I make about the layout. I am not perfect and occasionally I will miss a few things, or decide that a new version is better than dwelling on things for too long.
As far as theme goes I wanted to stay away from having every room in the map using the same art set constantly to avoid that everything looks the same, like biodome and eclipse for example. The idea of the map is that the areas that sound like worn down and dirty should be just that, while other areas that should be cleaner should be that. And anything in between should be somewhat of a transition between the two. This is hard to achieve and will require some rework in the detailing department. And quite frankly I would love to create my own assets to make these transitions smoother, though that would probably require me to create everything myself which in turn is something that I don't have the time to do. Another thing that I want to note about the theme of the map is that I am doing differently styled rooms next to each other to create contrast, something that will help new players learn the map faster as well. This may or may not lead the map to be played more, but the general idea is that if you can learn a map(not perfectly) pretty fast you're going to give it more chances. I am aware of some things that asthetically doesn't quite fit each other even if I tried to make the best out of it, but that is what the polishing phase is for. However I won't get to that until after the layout is 100% and all rooms have at 90% detail in them. But thank you for you concern and any specific feedback(be sure to include images!) is more than welcome.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Mineral Beta 1.08 Change log:
- Redesigned and finished(almost) detailing Mineral Processing.
- Started detailing between Mineral Processing and Generators.
- Altered path from Pump Station to Mineral Processing.
edit :
hole there, caused by the prop's shape, I took the screenshot from a distance so that you can see where it is, but when you come close to it, you can really see that it isn't capped.
Other than that, excellent job, really looking forward to seeing what will happen to The Bitch that Kills You
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Thanks for noticing MV, I'll look into it next week. When I actually start putting in some hours of work again. Dragon Age Inquisition has been taking up a lot of my time so far.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
New update on the workshop is live.
Mineral Beta 2.01 Change log:
- Reworked Loading Bay:
- Made stair less straight to shorten line of sight.
- Redid "crate area" so it's smaller.
- Moved the room slightly west.
- Increases run time from Automation to Pump Control and Transport by 1-2 seconds.
- Redid (greybox) geometry in the connection between Pump Station and Mineral Processing to favor aliens a bit more(hopefully).
Here is an album that you may find useful in the future G (promo, cvs, loading screens, workshop, etc) http://imgur.com/a/Vun4t
Better than last time I agree, I finally found out how to remove the HUD in spec mode xD what a douche.
UPDATE THE FREAKING WORKSHOP PAGE ! xD
edit/ps : I think I saw a hole on the floor in the spectate load zone in the RR. I know it's nothing urgent, but better put it out there, just so you know
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
New version is out on the workshop, feel free to check it out(specially 6v6 competitive players!).
Beta 2.02 change log:
- Detailed Connection(previously "The Bitch that Kills you").
- Fixed issue with Connection power node taking damage from Hive insfestation in Mineral Processing.
- Added silly crate in Mineral Processing to cut down line of sight from Connection.
- Improved performance(reducing draw calls) in east end of Generators due to adding a missing occlusion face on the west wall in Transfer.
- Changed some metarials in Surface/Stasis/Lockers(more of this coming later).
- Redesigned stairway in Loading Bay to increase travel times from Surface/Automation to Pump Control(reduces travel time to Transport by 1 second).
- Completely redesigned and detailed Security.
- Added ventilation from Security to Loading Bay(to make life a little bit easier for res-biting skulks, less OP for marines).
- Added ventilation from East Path to Transfer(to make Generators a little less OP and harder for marines to hold).
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
I'm seeing 3 locations that don't have visible names. You really should have all power nodes named.
I can't wait to play this Sunday, though I still think the map would benefit from being condensed down just a little bit. It seems that marines have a really hard time pushing out if they don't manage to take over most of the map really early on.
Comments
Change log:
- Re-designed ventilation from Mineral Processing to Generators. It has different entry points and is shorter now.
- Added vent between Production and Lounge. Marines can enter it from Lounge(without boosting). Crouching through the vent takes longer than running for marines.
- Re-designed and detailed Stasis Chamber.
- Fixed some commander invisible props so the don't show on the minimap as well.
I looked into the vent in Pump Station/Drill Site and determined that it's not worth the work needed to change it. I would need to redo a lot of the rock walls + other geometry and my custom collision in Drill Site to make it work.
All in all, I feel this map is too focused on automation even worse than veil is focused on nano.
When you think about Hub or Crossroads they're as important as Automation, although Automation might be too isolated, not enough open. Maybe a vent from the right of Automation to Transfer or from West Route to Transfer could solve that issue. In Crossroads for example you are able to bypass marines using vents.
Nevertheless each map has its unique features, so I won't be too worry about that.
Automation is important for marines, but it gives almost no map control. It's just mostly to prevent aliens from getting it. The rule is never let Cross or Hub to the aliens. Generators and Loading Bay are far more important imo. If you don't block these lines, you are open to res bitting and base rushes quite easily.
Mineral tended to be alien friendly, then it became more Marines sided. Now that there are more useful and coherent vents, I guess that kind of even things a bit. This of course needs further testing.
Relocation to Automation is strong, but then again, this strat hasn't been tried that often, so aliens weren't really prepare and didn't know how to react to it. The standard strat on Mineral and on most maps is to block every lane and apply pressure on alien naturals. ARC strats in Pump Stations can be pretty powerful too. I don't know, this map hasn't been played enough to have seen that many different strats. I've seen Pgs first on a 6v6 game, but as usual it kind of suck. Mostly because you don't have upgrades to keep pushing effectively past the 6-8 minutes mark (lerks/fades) and that the travel times aren't that long to cover.
Wait & see I guess
In my experience as marine, you claim automation and then proceed to lane block loading bay and generators while attempting to kill alien naturals.
In my experience as alien, you claim automation and lane block loading bay and lockers while trying to kill marine naturals. You can't always stop marines at lockers so you will hold them at generators and automation.
Obviously if you fail to win engagements and kill rt's in either scenario you lose, but with near even teams it becomes more a matter of location than skill.
In my experience, the team that holds automation wins.
On summit, crossroads is strong but is not a be all end all as automation has been for me. I do admit I am not the most experienced with the map and have been playing it occasionally with near skilled regulars on TGNS servers.
Maybe you are right that a simple vent could open another lane resolving this issue but I feel it may be more systemic than that. Or maybe I have not played the map enough.
There is an easy fix for that. Will have it in the next version, or release a hotfix if I feel like the next version is a bit far away. Thanks for noticing.
Thanks for other feedback guys it really means a lot. I agree that Automation is powerful and I feel that it should be. But it shouldn't be too powerful. A lot of its power I think comes from the areas around it(East Path/Loading Bay/Security) still having no detailing and viable places for Aliens to engage properly. So that is next on the list in trying to balance it out. I believe it will help tremendously with more cover/hiding spots. If it doesn't help enough a vent between Transfer and Automation or East Path could be interesting to try. Just need to make sure that a gorge can't reach the tech point with bile bomb from it, which shouldn't be much of a problem.
Another thing to note Nordic, is that I'm firstly trying to balance the map around competitive 6vs6 play. Not sure what the TGNS servers are in terms of player count, but it's worth mentioning that the map may not work too well with higher player count. At least not yet.
You can fit two or three marines in there.
I just released a new version though so enjoy that!
Mineral Beta 1.07 Change log:
- Detailed the small corridor between Production and Lounge, renamed it to Water Flow B.
- Fixed stuck issue in Ready Room on the Join Marine platform.
- Removed ledge in East Path, increases Marine run time from Automation to Generators by 2 seconds.
- Added vent in East Path instead of the ledge. Marines can use it one way(from Automation side), but it adds 2-3 more seconds to travel time.
- Detailed East Path.
The devil's in the details.
Ah, you wanted feedback ? Here you go, work more, work harder goddammit
I think it's a sign of a healthy map. You're on the right tracks but you already know that. Keep up the great work
Different props that don't really match ? what are you talking about ?
The finished areas are Rupture, Pump Control, Production, Stasis Chambers, Surface, Automation, Generators, East Path, Drill Site. The other parts are full WIP except for the general layout.
The props in wip rooms are there so that the map is still playable while it's a WIP.
The map is big ? hmmm not really, not at all even. Since the big reworking it's shrunk down a lot. Now it's tinier than say jambi, biodome, mineshaft, eclipse, etc, etc ... I don't see an issue. I think travel times are a bit too short even, that's why it's marines sided atm. But it's that way for a specific reason. Bceause it was too big and had too many corridors. Travel times were aweful, marines were'nt able to push the aliens naturals at all, so ... I personnaly think big map = aliens will fuck you over.
I really don't get what you're trying to say. Alternative lanes are stupid (look at Descent, it's insane) and artificial. If you look at Tram, three lanes, no alternative stuff, just smart vents. Well I gotta eat so I'm posting this as is, but you get what I'm trying to say, I hope
As far as long corridors go I know of one that I also think is way too long. And that is the current stairway between Automation/Loading Bay. Which others are too long? I still haven't found any competitive players that have complained about line of sight other than the one I've mentioned or in areas that are pretty much greybox(and mostly not even there do they complain). Not sure on the settings you have played the map in @SamusDroid, but from the general games I have witnessed of SCC or other public play tends to have stacked teams.
Map size, yeah, like MV said. I can think of at least 3 official maps that are larger by a mile. And they also have many more long annoying corridors. Line of sight is something I try to pay a lot of attention to and there is a lot of thought going into every decision I make about the layout. I am not perfect and occasionally I will miss a few things, or decide that a new version is better than dwelling on things for too long.
As far as theme goes I wanted to stay away from having every room in the map using the same art set constantly to avoid that everything looks the same, like biodome and eclipse for example. The idea of the map is that the areas that sound like worn down and dirty should be just that, while other areas that should be cleaner should be that. And anything in between should be somewhat of a transition between the two. This is hard to achieve and will require some rework in the detailing department. And quite frankly I would love to create my own assets to make these transitions smoother, though that would probably require me to create everything myself which in turn is something that I don't have the time to do. Another thing that I want to note about the theme of the map is that I am doing differently styled rooms next to each other to create contrast, something that will help new players learn the map faster as well. This may or may not lead the map to be played more, but the general idea is that if you can learn a map(not perfectly) pretty fast you're going to give it more chances. I am aware of some things that asthetically doesn't quite fit each other even if I tried to make the best out of it, but that is what the polishing phase is for. However I won't get to that until after the layout is 100% and all rooms have at 90% detail in them. But thank you for you concern and any specific feedback(be sure to include images!) is more than welcome.
- Redesigned and finished(almost) detailing Mineral Processing.
- Started detailing between Mineral Processing and Generators.
- Altered path from Pump Station to Mineral Processing.
On the workshop now. GG
edit :
hole there, caused by the prop's shape, I took the screenshot from a distance so that you can see where it is, but when you come close to it, you can really see that it isn't capped.
Other than that, excellent job, really looking forward to seeing what will happen to The Bitch that Kills You
Mineral Beta 2.01 Change log:
- Reworked Loading Bay:
- Made stair less straight to shorten line of sight.
- Redid "crate area" so it's smaller.
- Moved the room slightly west.
- Increases run time from Automation to Pump Control and Transport by 1-2 seconds.
- Redid (greybox) geometry in the connection between Pump Station and Mineral Processing to favor aliens a bit more(hopefully).
http://imgur.com/a/Vun4t
Better than last time I agree, I finally found out how to remove the HUD in spec mode xD what a douche.
UPDATE THE FREAKING WORKSHOP PAGE ! xD
edit/ps : I think I saw a hole on the floor in the spectate load zone in the RR. I know it's nothing urgent, but better put it out there, just so you know
Beta 2.02 change log:
- Detailed Connection(previously "The Bitch that Kills you").
- Fixed issue with Connection power node taking damage from Hive insfestation in Mineral Processing.
- Added silly crate in Mineral Processing to cut down line of sight from Connection.
- Improved performance(reducing draw calls) in east end of Generators due to adding a missing occlusion face on the west wall in Transfer.
- Changed some metarials in Surface/Stasis/Lockers(more of this coming later).
- Redesigned stairway in Loading Bay to increase travel times from Surface/Automation to Pump Control(reduces travel time to Transport by 1 second).
- Completely redesigned and detailed Security.
- Added ventilation from Security to Loading Bay(to make life a little bit easier for res-biting skulks, less OP for marines).
- Added ventilation from East Path to Transfer(to make Generators a little less OP and harder for marines to hold).
New layout:
A few screens:
Security:
East Path/Transfer vent:
Now test it and give me feedback!
I can't wait to play this Sunday, though I still think the map would benefit from being condensed down just a little bit. It seems that marines have a really hard time pushing out if they don't manage to take over most of the map really early on.