Echoing some of what's being said in the above video. There's a lot of open space, and clear lines. not very much for aliens to hide. Think Transit/Smelting on Refinery, or Atmos or even bamboo Pass on Biodome. There's pillars, pipes, and even rafters to use to dodge.
For the most part, mineral doesn't have anything to put between you and the marine.
I don't agree. There's loads of cover around the entire map. Maybe the 15% of the map that has no detail has this issue, I can agree on that.
As for the other things:
I haven't watched the games, yet. I've been busy with other stuff and not focusing on Mineral at all lately. I will get some hours in this week(hopefully) and see if I can release a new version with some changes.
Overall I agree with your analysis MV, but adding a lane from Automation to Stations would have one major downside. You would be able to arc both Generators and Pump Control from one spot. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm fairly certain that it would be the case. So I'm not sure how to solve that, ideas would be appreciated.
About Processing hive, not sure what to do. It's either moving the connection between gen and processing to the western side of gen(least amount of work) or moving the smaller "hive-room" portion of processing to the north wall(a lot more work because it will break the entire idea of the room and the pipes going through the map). I'm leaning towards moving Connection. Not only would it take away the arc-spot, but it would make the stairs shorter and in turn easier for aliens to maintain speed/engage.
Other than that, res and tech points will be removed from Automation for the next release. And I can look into turning down lights in some locations where it could be crucial for aliens.
EDIT:
Actually. Moving Connection to the western part of Gen would require moving the resnode to the other side of the room, so you wouldn't be able to arc it from the possible Automation <-> Stations lane. But you probably would be able to arc Pump Control, which could be solved by editing how the vents pass through the area.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2015
New version on workshop!
Beta 2.50 change log:
- Reduced lighting in most locations across the map, exceptions are Surface, Stasis, Security and Production.
- Moved Connection(between Mineral Processing and Generators) to put the entry points on the west side of the respective rooms.
- Moved Generators resource node to the east side of the room.
- Widened doors slightly going in to Transfer from both sides.
- Moved around and edited some crates in Storage to help Aliens push in to the room if occupied by Marines.
- Removed Automation resource node.
- Destroyed Automation tech point.
- Made server racks in Automation longer to provide more cover for aliens.
- Added to ventilation entrances to Automation, they connect to the existing ventilation between Pump Control and Generators. Should help Aliens push past Marines in Loading Bay and Generators.
WTF. He tested it many times on stream, this has never happened.. I'll test this right away.
EDIT : I have the same issue as Meph. The broken TP dynamic prop doesn't appear.
NS2+ graphic setting related issue ? G's build not properly updated, or including all the new files ?
Missing stuff in patch notes :
. longer server props in Automation to provide more cover and break LoS
I really like the changes from a pure map balance perspective. I thought automation was too strong and now it has a tradeoff. In the videos there were lots of LOS and cover complains that were partially addressed. I can't wait to see how it plays out. I will let you know what the server thinks.
Please do ! It would be great if some of the players that played on the previous version could be there. I hope they were regulars. Plus they would already know the map, not knowing how a map works is usually the biggest issue when providing feedback.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited March 2015
I did a walk around yesterday, and there were a few things I could think of.
* There are tons of turns. I'm guessing these are to increase route time. People get disoriented and annoyed when using reversing hallways, because their perspective constantly shifts. There are ways around this in the form of interesting rooms with obstacles, cover, and verticality. You can trick the player into making turns with rooms like Water Proc in Mineshaft. They can prefire the room, and see their destinations from it. It's very good for showing the player where he will end up and what lies ahead.
* In addition to the turns, rooms could use more varied lighting to better navigate the player through the map. Shipping is really big, and confusing for that reason in particular. You can even do cool stuff like Tram uses, where two connected rooms use the same hue, but are differed by use of highlights.
* The vent in Generators seems extremely powerful/annoying. Without removing it, you could remove the exit on the Generator RT side, forcing skulks to go to the other (Generator) room if they want to annoy the crap out of people. That said, people frequently dislike vents that enter tech points. Summit has two, but the entrances are not far from of the tech point and accessible by marines. Descent's are the opposite, entrances far from the tech point, and only one is accessible by marines. People dislike Descent for that reason.
Less important but still useful things:
* I think that there are too many railings in what I believe is Mineral Processing. The Northeast Tech Point. This was a common complaint on Eclipse, but did made combat a lot better in many areas of the map. It didn't fix the other problems, though.
* Stairway/Ramp in Mineral is really long. Segmenting it and reversing it would probably be much more interesting. This would probably play better for combat as well, because then it's not a straight shot at aliens.
Since the map plays out as slightly marines sided, the Gen/Pump vent allowed aliens to have a chance to defend against double pressure. Despite what people say, the map is not big, and connectivity is simple enough for marines to have the upper hand early, mid and late game. Automation being intentionally a quite closed room and close to marines spawn, the Gen vent has been built to counter the marines easier map control throughout the game.
I guess you should see for yourself and get a pug on it once or twice to understand what I mean, the pace of a typical alien round and how this vent really plays out. The fact that it connects Automation now, might have changed stuff though..
I also disagree on the "tons of turns". Just on the top of my head i can give you two custom maps with disorienting designs turns-wise : nexus and caged.
When you walk around them for the first time, you get lost. On the other hand I think Mineral has a pretty clear and smooth level design, but we don't see the map the same way (i know it pretty well now and you just saw it once, so different povs). But we didn't get pub or comp feedback saying the map was confusing. We did have people saying the different height levels and stairs were annoying though. What did you thon of that ?
I do though agree on the "rooms are better than corridors and turns" and "intuitive lighting". I know it was an issue stated in several feedbacks and it was adressed where it was causing the most confusion (ie: automation/east path entrance). If you have instances where this may be an issue, pls be more precise so it can be fixed.
To bounce off of that, I do think that the Lockers design is not intuitive. You have to bring up the map to see there's a way behind the locker prop, to go to Automation.
Also Zav, certain turns have been designed that way to break LoS, such as the Connection room.
Ps : I have no opinion on railings. I know they can be annoying sometimes (my lerk hates them). Are you suggesting to remove them all in the Mineral Pro room ? That might be a good idea
I do agree there are certain parts of the map that are annoying, but in general I found the map layout to be very easy to pick up. In the pub games I have been recording I do not recall even one person every mentioning that the map is confusing or they were getting lost.
In comparison I still occasionally run the wrong direction in caged into that dead end with a vent near auxiliary generator area. I don't find Kodiak particularly hard to navigate but I still hear complaints in pubs about getting lost.
I do not recall even one person every mentioning that the map is confusing or they were getting lost.
My team kept complaining about getting lost on Mineral in a pcw tonight. But they are a bit retarded
first time they played it ?
Pcw on mineral ? Nice, who did you play with ?
Last night we played two rounds against Natural Erection and last sunday we played a 46 minute round against Austrian Death Machine. We think the change in Automation was too big. Before the change it was a very important place for the marines but last night we didn't bother going there much. How about making it a res node again? Without the tech point marines can't beacon there which will make it a little bit harder to defend.
Overall we liked the map and I'm looking forward to seeing it getting more detailed.
I did a walk around yesterday, and there were a few things I could think of.
* There are tons of turns. I'm guessing these are to increase route time. People get disoriented and annoyed when using reversing hallways, because their perspective constantly shifts. There are ways around this in the form of interesting rooms with obstacles, cover, and verticality. You can trick the player into making turns with rooms like Water Proc in Mineshaft. They can prefire the room, and see their destinations from it. It's very good for showing the player where he will end up and what lies ahead.
I can sort of agree with this. But in the detailed areas there aren't many of these. The one I can think of is East Path. Other places this occurs is likely the areas that are still greybox. The greybox areas that consist of mostly corridors will likely change into rooms with obstacles like you mention.
* In addition to the turns, rooms could use more varied lighting to better navigate the player through the map. Shipping is really big, and confusing for that reason in particular. You can even do cool stuff like Tram uses, where two connected rooms use the same hue, but are differed by use of highlights.
Shipping?
I'm not happy with the lighting in a lot of the level, so I will be doing a thorough pass on it once I have everything detailed. Not much point in altering stuff before that since I, unfortunately, have limited time.
* The vent in Generators seems extremely powerful/annoying. Without removing it, you could remove the exit on the Generator RT side, forcing skulks to go to the other (Generator) room if they want to annoy the crap out of people. That said, people frequently dislike vents that enter tech points. Summit has two, but the entrances are not far from of the tech point and accessible by marines. Descent's are the opposite, entrances far from the tech point, and only one is accessible by marines. People dislike Descent for that reason.
It didn't use to be overpowered. Not sure if this changed with the removal of Automation RT/Tech and addition of vents there. Will need to see/play more games to see how it really plays out.
As for vents to the tech points, both Drill Site and Mineral Processing are random Alien spawns. Surface is the only Marine spawn and it doesn't have a vent. Production has a vent, but it's so far from the tech point and Marines can access the Production vent from Lounge. I'll have to look into it if it becomes a problem but so far I haven't seen any issues with it. (Also, pro tip, marines can get into the vents in Automation now and use them to get all the way to Mineral Processing in a sneaky way. It takes a while though.)
* I think that there are too many railings in what I believe is Mineral Processing. The Northeast Tech Point. This was a common complaint on Eclipse, but did made combat a lot better in many areas of the map. It didn't fix the other problems, though.
Is this an issue with collision and getting stuck? I don't think I want to remove the railings, because from a visual point of view they make a lot of sense. I can however build them in with new collision that prevents people from getting stuck. I have already taken measures against getting stuck, but it may not be enough.
Not sure which one you mean? The one on the west entrance towards Pump Station that is currently greybox? If so, that whole area is getting a pretty substantial rebuild/detailing once I have time to commit to it, because it's gonna take 1-2 weeks to fulfill. If not, what do you mean?
We think the change in Automation was too big. Before the change it was a very important place for the marines but last night we didn't bother going there much. How about making it a res node again? Without the tech point marines can't beacon there which will make it a little bit harder to defend.
The removal of the Automation res node was a direct "counter" to Marine economy throughout entire games. Marines could too easily hold 5 nodes from very early in the game and rarely going below 4 nodes if playing a good game. Having the tech point there without a res node made no sense, hence why it was destroyed.
I think Automation is still an important place for Marines because of the vents that mostly Aliens can use to bypass the chokes in Gen/Loading Bay. I played a gather on Mineral the same night I released the latest version and I actually spent most of my time(as the lane blocking/defending marine) in and around Automation.
However it is still an experimental change and I definitely need to see more games to determine the impact of it.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2015
TAW played an internal scrim (7v7) on that map yesterday. The feedback I got from them (I wasn't playing) was that loading bay is horribly OP for marines if aliens have a drilling site spawn. If you look at the map Loading bay has direct access to both natural RTs of the aliens and is fairly close to marine spawn. I got 2 suggestions on how to fix this:
first: enforce mineral processing spawn
second: replace loading bay - pump control connection with a vent and replace pump control automation vent with a hallway. Also don't make the route from automation to pump control too short. maybe a bit like east path. or maybe move pump control RT to pump station.
as for other feedback. marines can jump into the automation-pump control- generators vent from automation. not sure if that one is intended
I've heard different stuff on Loading Bay, saying that with a tunnel behind the blue crate and some alien manpower, loading bay was super hard to take. I've also heard that a Drill site/Transfer tunnel was super op especially with the new East Path vent.
About your suggestions Meph :
. I do not agree about enforcing Mineral Pro alien spawn (less diversity)
. I always thought that Automation was too isolated, that one lane leading to two Rts was an issue.
. I do agree with your idea of connecting Auto to Pump with the removal of the Loading/Pump corridor.
. If you have this new connection, then timings might be screwed, so I'd agree with moving Control RT to Stations.
. Also agree on keeping a kind of connection between loading and pump (vent for aliens only). This would mean, no more Pump/Auto/Gen vent though.
. Having an RT similar to what Oxy is to Jambi would pretty much change the balance towards aliens, especially with the kind of connectivity you have in the upper part of the map right now
. However this would give more sense and more importance to Auto, making lane blocking there less artificial (since the vents would be removed
Ps: being able to jump in the auto vent is intentional
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2015
Hey guys. Thanks for the feedback. As much as I appreciate what you guys say, and sort of agree on some points, I do want to try some stuff that I've been thinking about myself just to at least have tested it. The change is not as huge as splitting the routes from Automation to Transport/Pump Control, but I think it will alleviate the problem of Loading Bay being a little bit OP(depends a lot on teams).
The idea is that I want to make as many stairs as possible(ones that are "double-sets") shorter. In example turning them into "single-sets", again meaning that I need to remove one of the stair props on the stairs that uses two. This is going to be a very long and sort of tedious process but it will help a lot with the map flow for both teams.
Other than that I want to expand Loading Bay a bit again to make the room bigger, and in turn making the cover in there less effective for aliens. Also, turning the corridors between Security/Automation/Loading Bay into more of a room is probably going to help the situation even more. But before I can do this I need to make sure that the stairs are shorter. I will start the transition today(sadly without the stream because my internet is 4G with 800MB left atm).
To just discuss a couple of the things you say:
- The RT in Pump Control was meant to be something like what Oxy is on Jambi, not sure if it worked out entirely as planned, but it's not a bad spot for either team as far as I can see. Moving it to Station would possibly make it far too easy for aliens to hold, I don't want to give them "free" RTs. That means a potential direct route from Automation to Pump Control could be too fast to travel. And I want to avoid having more spaces like East Path because 180 degree turns generally aren't too good for map flow. It was necessary in that one area though and having one such place isn't a map killer imo.
- I will not enforce Mineral Processing spawn for aliens because of what MV said.
when exiting Secu, you have a small room (instead of corridors), this small room leads to Automation (to the south of it). It also leads to Loading Bay. at the north west side of AUtomation you'll have another room leading to Control and Loading as well. The goal is to make two lanes on the left side of the map, and making the auto route to Control more advantageous, timings-wise.
SO, you can still go to Control through Loading Bay, but it takes more time.
I'm asking @MasterG to post here the photoshoped layout he's come up with, so that everybody can see what the plan is. He's also worked a lot on height levels, so you don't have endless staircases anymore. They're still there but way shorter, because he moved a big part of the map up a bit.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2015
this might work. needs to be tested. aliens can get past marines in loading bay more easy now. the problem is still that both natural RTs (if drilling site spawn) are easily accessible from loading bay though
this might work. needs to be tested. aliens can get past marines in loading bay more easy now. the problem is still that both natural RTs (if drilling site spawn) are easily accessible from loading bay though
It was already true before. But the advantage of Transport is that the RT room is more alien friendly than Gen (if Mineral Pro spawn). The trade off is real
I just had a great game on mineral. Alien win. I was really enjoying lerking in and out of vents. There are so many vents that let me bite from the front and sneak behind quickly to get them from the other direction. In that way the map was very fun.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2015
There's a new version of Mineral out on the workshop! This update is huge, so play it!!
Beta 3.10 change log:
- Reduced length and height of many stairs and slopes across the entire map.
- Added floor cover to several places in the map that needed it badly(possibly more coming later!).
- Mirrored lockers in Lockers and added two pillars to the west wall for Alien cover(adds a few seconds to Marine travel time to Production, reduces Marine travel time through Lockers/Automation going to Generators).
- Split Generators/Automation/Pump Control vent in two. Now goes from Generators to Automation, and Automation to Pump Control.
- Moved entrances to the vent between Loading Bay and Storage to new positions, Storage entrance is now a lot more accessible to Aliens.
- Removed vent between Automation and Security.
- Added vents to the ceiling supports in Loading Bay as well as above the HUGE door.
- Moved Loading Bay so it connects directly to Transport.
- Added new room(Break Room) that connects between Loading Bay, Pump Control and Automation. This is now a new lane in the area.
- Added new room(Waiting) that connects between Loading Bay, Automation and Security. This is now a new lane in the area. (Marines can now move through either Loading Bay OR Automation to get to Pump Control. Automation route is faster. Marine travel times going from Surface(Marine start) to Alien natural RTs now reflect the timings of Jambi(almost 100%).)
- Reduced width of the center piece in Transfer to open the room up a bit more, hopefully makes gorge tunnels in the room less OP and easier to attack for marines.
- Moved center piece in Lounge to the middle of the room.
- Added more space behind RT in Lockers and edited some props and materials.
- Reduced lighting intensity in a few more areas.
- Changed all vent lights color to orange.
- Closed a bunch of unintended occlusion holes.
- Fixed some overlapping location entities.
- Added geometry under commander invisible doors to cap what would otherwise be black holes(medpacks in doorways!!).
- Replaced all commander cameras with new ones.
Layout:
The map is running on my server "G's Mineral Only" all day today the 25th of march and possibly until tomorrow morning if anyone wants to jump in, run around and check out the new changes!
Screenshots of some of the changes brought in this 3.10 update.
East Path new ground cover and lighting
New doorway in Generators, providing more ground cover for skulks and also cover to run up in the vent above
To answer some of the feedback we got about Transfer, the central structure has been shrunk down a bit, so that you have more room and visibilty when fighting a GT and pve in this room. You cannot see/shoot the Gen RT from the center of Transfer anymore
Lockers RT is prettier now ! Flowers and plants gents
Lockers new cover pillars, and the rotation of the locker prop
New Lounge
Automation new ground cover and entrance leading to Waiting
Waiting (new room, between Security, Loading and Automation)
Break room
POV from Loading Bay entrance. We can see the Pump Control entrance and the way to automation on the rigt side
Another POV from the Automation entrance, at the end of the room you have Loading on the left and Pump Control on the right
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2015
Ok the map has now been updated to version B 3.20.
Change log:
- Removed a bunch of geometry and props from the commander view for easier drops of structures, meds and ammo across rooms. Possible still some "issues" but hopefully nothing crucial.
- Moved the Security RT a bit south(closer to Marine start in Surface), can no longer be cysted through any walls. Also helps Marines to defend it a little bit better.
- Added ARC spot to the small corridor just south of Production tech point. Should help Marines to push the area a bit, but not in an OP way as it's still possible to bilebomb.
- Fixed stuck spots around the escalators(and other places) in Security.
- Redid the inner room layout/detailing in Mineral Processing a little to help Marines out a bit when pushing a Hive. Still plenty of cover for Aliens. Should generally be a better room to fight in for both teams now.
- Removed the silly double-U-turn going from Waiting to Loading Bay.
- Moved Surface, and Waiting slightly south(to give more "air" between Waiting and Break Room(reduces how far cysts stretches through the walls). Had to expand Automation a little bit south to match said movement of rooms. [The two changes above makes sure that the Marine run timing from Surface to Transport or Pump Control or Production stays pretty much the same(possibly 0.3 second difference)! Also helps with movement through Waiting towards loading bay because there aren't 9000 corners any more.]
- Removed OP Gorge Tunnel spot under the catwalks in Drill Site.
- Fixed minimap in East Path so it doesn't look like it's possible to walk through the wall.
That is all. This change doesn't alter the way the map plays in general, just a tiny bit in two specific areas(Waiting and Mineral Processing). Minimap mostly looks the same so I won't post it here now. Enjoy!
Edit:
Just released a hotfix addressing an issue with being able to "unstuck" out of the map in certain spots.
Comments
I don't agree. There's loads of cover around the entire map. Maybe the 15% of the map that has no detail has this issue, I can agree on that.
As for the other things:
I haven't watched the games, yet. I've been busy with other stuff and not focusing on Mineral at all lately. I will get some hours in this week(hopefully) and see if I can release a new version with some changes.
Overall I agree with your analysis MV, but adding a lane from Automation to Stations would have one major downside. You would be able to arc both Generators and Pump Control from one spot. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm fairly certain that it would be the case. So I'm not sure how to solve that, ideas would be appreciated.
About Processing hive, not sure what to do. It's either moving the connection between gen and processing to the western side of gen(least amount of work) or moving the smaller "hive-room" portion of processing to the north wall(a lot more work because it will break the entire idea of the room and the pipes going through the map). I'm leaning towards moving Connection. Not only would it take away the arc-spot, but it would make the stairs shorter and in turn easier for aliens to maintain speed/engage.
Other than that, res and tech points will be removed from Automation for the next release. And I can look into turning down lights in some locations where it could be crucial for aliens.
EDIT:
Actually. Moving Connection to the western part of Gen would require moving the resnode to the other side of the room, so you wouldn't be able to arc it from the possible Automation <-> Stations lane. But you probably would be able to arc Pump Control, which could be solved by editing how the vents pass through the area.
Beta 2.50 change log:
- Reduced lighting in most locations across the map, exceptions are Surface, Stasis, Security and Production.
- Moved Connection(between Mineral Processing and Generators) to put the entry points on the west side of the respective rooms.
- Moved Generators resource node to the east side of the room.
- Widened doors slightly going in to Transfer from both sides.
- Moved around and edited some crates in Storage to help Aliens push in to the room if occupied by Marines.
- Removed Automation resource node.
- Destroyed Automation tech point.
- Made server racks in Automation longer to provide more cover for aliens.
- Added to ventilation entrances to Automation, they connect to the existing ventilation between Pump Control and Generators. Should help Aliens push past Marines in Loading Bay and Generators.
Check it out!
EDIT : I have the same issue as Meph. The broken TP dynamic prop doesn't appear.
NS2+ graphic setting related issue ? G's build not properly updated, or including all the new files ?
Missing stuff in patch notes :
. longer server props in Automation to provide more cover and break LoS
* There are tons of turns. I'm guessing these are to increase route time. People get disoriented and annoyed when using reversing hallways, because their perspective constantly shifts. There are ways around this in the form of interesting rooms with obstacles, cover, and verticality. You can trick the player into making turns with rooms like Water Proc in Mineshaft. They can prefire the room, and see their destinations from it. It's very good for showing the player where he will end up and what lies ahead.
* In addition to the turns, rooms could use more varied lighting to better navigate the player through the map. Shipping is really big, and confusing for that reason in particular. You can even do cool stuff like Tram uses, where two connected rooms use the same hue, but are differed by use of highlights.
* The vent in Generators seems extremely powerful/annoying. Without removing it, you could remove the exit on the Generator RT side, forcing skulks to go to the other (Generator) room if they want to annoy the crap out of people. That said, people frequently dislike vents that enter tech points. Summit has two, but the entrances are not far from of the tech point and accessible by marines. Descent's are the opposite, entrances far from the tech point, and only one is accessible by marines. People dislike Descent for that reason.
Less important but still useful things:
* I think that there are too many railings in what I believe is Mineral Processing. The Northeast Tech Point. This was a common complaint on Eclipse, but did made combat a lot better in many areas of the map. It didn't fix the other problems, though.
* Stairway/Ramp in Mineral is really long. Segmenting it and reversing it would probably be much more interesting. This would probably play better for combat as well, because then it's not a straight shot at aliens.
I guess you should see for yourself and get a pug on it once or twice to understand what I mean, the pace of a typical alien round and how this vent really plays out. The fact that it connects Automation now, might have changed stuff though..
I also disagree on the "tons of turns". Just on the top of my head i can give you two custom maps with disorienting designs turns-wise : nexus and caged.
When you walk around them for the first time, you get lost. On the other hand I think Mineral has a pretty clear and smooth level design, but we don't see the map the same way (i know it pretty well now and you just saw it once, so different povs). But we didn't get pub or comp feedback saying the map was confusing. We did have people saying the different height levels and stairs were annoying though. What did you thon of that ?
I do though agree on the "rooms are better than corridors and turns" and "intuitive lighting". I know it was an issue stated in several feedbacks and it was adressed where it was causing the most confusion (ie: automation/east path entrance). If you have instances where this may be an issue, pls be more precise so it can be fixed.
To bounce off of that, I do think that the Lockers design is not intuitive. You have to bring up the map to see there's a way behind the locker prop, to go to Automation.
Also Zav, certain turns have been designed that way to break LoS, such as the Connection room.
In comparison I still occasionally run the wrong direction in caged into that dead end with a vent near auxiliary generator area. I don't find Kodiak particularly hard to navigate but I still hear complaints in pubs about getting lost.
My team kept complaining about getting lost on Mineral in a pcw tonight. But they are a bit retarded
Pcw on mineral ? Nice, who did you play with ?
Last night we played two rounds against Natural Erection and last sunday we played a 46 minute round against Austrian Death Machine. We think the change in Automation was too big. Before the change it was a very important place for the marines but last night we didn't bother going there much. How about making it a res node again? Without the tech point marines can't beacon there which will make it a little bit harder to defend.
Overall we liked the map and I'm looking forward to seeing it getting more detailed.
I can sort of agree with this. But in the detailed areas there aren't many of these. The one I can think of is East Path. Other places this occurs is likely the areas that are still greybox. The greybox areas that consist of mostly corridors will likely change into rooms with obstacles like you mention.
Shipping?
I'm not happy with the lighting in a lot of the level, so I will be doing a thorough pass on it once I have everything detailed. Not much point in altering stuff before that since I, unfortunately, have limited time.
It didn't use to be overpowered. Not sure if this changed with the removal of Automation RT/Tech and addition of vents there. Will need to see/play more games to see how it really plays out.
As for vents to the tech points, both Drill Site and Mineral Processing are random Alien spawns. Surface is the only Marine spawn and it doesn't have a vent. Production has a vent, but it's so far from the tech point and Marines can access the Production vent from Lounge. I'll have to look into it if it becomes a problem but so far I haven't seen any issues with it. (Also, pro tip, marines can get into the vents in Automation now and use them to get all the way to Mineral Processing in a sneaky way. It takes a while though.)
Is this an issue with collision and getting stuck? I don't think I want to remove the railings, because from a visual point of view they make a lot of sense. I can however build them in with new collision that prevents people from getting stuck. I have already taken measures against getting stuck, but it may not be enough.
Not sure which one you mean? The one on the west entrance towards Pump Station that is currently greybox? If so, that whole area is getting a pretty substantial rebuild/detailing once I have time to commit to it, because it's gonna take 1-2 weeks to fulfill. If not, what do you mean?
The removal of the Automation res node was a direct "counter" to Marine economy throughout entire games. Marines could too easily hold 5 nodes from very early in the game and rarely going below 4 nodes if playing a good game. Having the tech point there without a res node made no sense, hence why it was destroyed.
I think Automation is still an important place for Marines because of the vents that mostly Aliens can use to bypass the chokes in Gen/Loading Bay. I played a gather on Mineral the same night I released the latest version and I actually spent most of my time(as the lane blocking/defending marine) in and around Automation.
However it is still an experimental change and I definitely need to see more games to determine the impact of it.
first: enforce mineral processing spawn
second: replace loading bay - pump control connection with a vent and replace pump control automation vent with a hallway. Also don't make the route from automation to pump control too short. maybe a bit like east path. or maybe move pump control RT to pump station.
as for other feedback. marines can jump into the automation-pump control- generators vent from automation. not sure if that one is intended
anyway here is the game they played, starting at 36:30
www.twitch.tv/skyfishart/b/637382108
About your suggestions Meph :
. I do not agree about enforcing Mineral Pro alien spawn (less diversity)
. I always thought that Automation was too isolated, that one lane leading to two Rts was an issue.
. I do agree with your idea of connecting Auto to Pump with the removal of the Loading/Pump corridor.
. If you have this new connection, then timings might be screwed, so I'd agree with moving Control RT to Stations.
. Also agree on keeping a kind of connection between loading and pump (vent for aliens only). This would mean, no more Pump/Auto/Gen vent though.
. Having an RT similar to what Oxy is to Jambi would pretty much change the balance towards aliens, especially with the kind of connectivity you have in the upper part of the map right now
. However this would give more sense and more importance to Auto, making lane blocking there less artificial (since the vents would be removed
Ps: being able to jump in the auto vent is intentional
The idea is that I want to make as many stairs as possible(ones that are "double-sets") shorter. In example turning them into "single-sets", again meaning that I need to remove one of the stair props on the stairs that uses two. This is going to be a very long and sort of tedious process but it will help a lot with the map flow for both teams.
Other than that I want to expand Loading Bay a bit again to make the room bigger, and in turn making the cover in there less effective for aliens. Also, turning the corridors between Security/Automation/Loading Bay into more of a room is probably going to help the situation even more. But before I can do this I need to make sure that the stairs are shorter. I will start the transition today(sadly without the stream because my internet is 4G with 800MB left atm).
To just discuss a couple of the things you say:
- The RT in Pump Control was meant to be something like what Oxy is on Jambi, not sure if it worked out entirely as planned, but it's not a bad spot for either team as far as I can see. Moving it to Station would possibly make it far too easy for aliens to hold, I don't want to give them "free" RTs. That means a potential direct route from Automation to Pump Control could be too fast to travel. And I want to avoid having more spaces like East Path because 180 degree turns generally aren't too good for map flow. It was necessary in that one area though and having one such place isn't a map killer imo.
- I will not enforce Mineral Processing spawn for aliens because of what MV said.
when exiting Secu, you have a small room (instead of corridors), this small room leads to Automation (to the south of it). It also leads to Loading Bay. at the north west side of AUtomation you'll have another room leading to Control and Loading as well. The goal is to make two lanes on the left side of the map, and making the auto route to Control more advantageous, timings-wise.
SO, you can still go to Control through Loading Bay, but it takes more time.
I'm asking @MasterG to post here the photoshoped layout he's come up with, so that everybody can see what the plan is. He's also worked a lot on height levels, so you don't have endless staircases anymore. They're still there but way shorter, because he moved a big part of the map up a bit.
Beta 3.10 change log:
- Reduced length and height of many stairs and slopes across the entire map.
- Added floor cover to several places in the map that needed it badly(possibly more coming later!).
- Mirrored lockers in Lockers and added two pillars to the west wall for Alien cover(adds a few seconds to Marine travel time to Production, reduces Marine travel time through Lockers/Automation going to Generators).
- Split Generators/Automation/Pump Control vent in two. Now goes from Generators to Automation, and Automation to Pump Control.
- Moved entrances to the vent between Loading Bay and Storage to new positions, Storage entrance is now a lot more accessible to Aliens.
- Removed vent between Automation and Security.
- Added vents to the ceiling supports in Loading Bay as well as above the HUGE door.
- Moved Loading Bay so it connects directly to Transport.
- Added new room(Break Room) that connects between Loading Bay, Pump Control and Automation. This is now a new lane in the area.
- Added new room(Waiting) that connects between Loading Bay, Automation and Security. This is now a new lane in the area.
(Marines can now move through either Loading Bay OR Automation to get to Pump Control. Automation route is faster. Marine travel times going from Surface(Marine start) to Alien natural RTs now reflect the timings of Jambi(almost 100%).)
- Reduced width of the center piece in Transfer to open the room up a bit more, hopefully makes gorge tunnels in the room less OP and easier to attack for marines.
- Moved center piece in Lounge to the middle of the room.
- Added more space behind RT in Lockers and edited some props and materials.
- Reduced lighting intensity in a few more areas.
- Changed all vent lights color to orange.
- Closed a bunch of unintended occlusion holes.
- Fixed some overlapping location entities.
- Added geometry under commander invisible doors to cap what would otherwise be black holes(medpacks in doorways!!).
- Replaced all commander cameras with new ones.
Layout:
The map is running on my server "G's Mineral Only" all day today the 25th of march and possibly until tomorrow morning if anyone wants to jump in, run around and check out the new changes!
East Path new ground cover and lighting
New doorway in Generators, providing more ground cover for skulks and also cover to run up in the vent above
To answer some of the feedback we got about Transfer, the central structure has been shrunk down a bit, so that you have more room and visibilty when fighting a GT and pve in this room. You cannot see/shoot the Gen RT from the center of Transfer anymore
Lockers RT is prettier now ! Flowers and plants gents
Lockers new cover pillars, and the rotation of the locker prop
New Lounge
Automation new ground cover and entrance leading to Waiting
Waiting (new room, between Security, Loading and Automation)
Break room
Another POV from the Automation entrance, at the end of the room you have Loading on the left and Pump Control on the right
Change log:
- Removed a bunch of geometry and props from the commander view for easier drops of structures, meds and ammo across rooms. Possible still some "issues" but hopefully nothing crucial.
- Moved the Security RT a bit south(closer to Marine start in Surface), can no longer be cysted through any walls. Also helps Marines to defend it a little bit better.
- Added ARC spot to the small corridor just south of Production tech point. Should help Marines to push the area a bit, but not in an OP way as it's still possible to bilebomb.
- Fixed stuck spots around the escalators(and other places) in Security.
- Redid the inner room layout/detailing in Mineral Processing a little to help Marines out a bit when pushing a Hive. Still plenty of cover for Aliens. Should generally be a better room to fight in for both teams now.
- Removed the silly double-U-turn going from Waiting to Loading Bay.
- Moved Surface, and Waiting slightly south(to give more "air" between Waiting and Break Room(reduces how far cysts stretches through the walls). Had to expand Automation a little bit south to match said movement of rooms.
[The two changes above makes sure that the Marine run timing from Surface to Transport or Pump Control or Production stays pretty much the same(possibly 0.3 second difference)! Also helps with movement through Waiting towards loading bay because there aren't 9000 corners any more.]
- Removed OP Gorge Tunnel spot under the catwalks in Drill Site.
- Fixed minimap in East Path so it doesn't look like it's possible to walk through the wall.
That is all. This change doesn't alter the way the map plays in general, just a tiny bit in two specific areas(Waiting and Mineral Processing). Minimap mostly looks the same so I won't post it here now. Enjoy!
Edit:
Just released a hotfix addressing an issue with being able to "unstuck" out of the map in certain spots.