I'm seeing 3 locations that don't have visible names. You really should have all power nodes named.
I can't wait to play this Sunday, though I still think the map would benefit from being condensed down just a little bit. It seems that marines have a really hard time pushing out if they don't manage to take over most of the map really early on.
Really ? how ? The map is slightly marines sided at the moment. And I think it's a small map. Marines pressure is way easier than it used to be. But Mineral has been marines side for a while now. At least in a 6v6 environment
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
3 non-essential aren't named on the minimap to avoid clutter. All the important locations have their names on the map. The locations still have names, not seeing why that is a problem? A clearer view of essential places in the map is most important imo.
MV is probably the one who has played the map most out of anyone. But I have also seen the tendency of the map being slightly marine sided for a while. This was the whole purpose of redoing the stairs in loading bay, redesigning security and adding the vents security->loading and eastpath->transfer. With these small changes I'm hoping that the southern lanes will be slightly harder for marines to hold instead of how easy it has been(specifically the south-west side) for a long time now.
The timings seem good to me and have been tested thoroughly for over 3 months and are easily comparable to the official maps. I feel like people don't really know the map well enough and possibly try to play the same strats as other maps even though NS2 is alot about adapting to different settings and obstacles. You can't play veil as if it was summit, just saying.
@BeigeAlert Have you seen aliens win in pubs or during the SCC ? When was it ?
just to know. I played a pub once on this version of the map (layout) and marines won.
Taw tested the map like a week ago, and marines won both rounds. And as Mephilles told me : "TAWs strongest side isn't marines, so you get what I mean".
@BeigeAlert Have you seen aliens win in pubs or during the SCC ? When was it ?
just to know. I played a pub once on this version of the map (layout) and marines won.
Taw tested the map like a week ago, and marines won both rounds. And as Mephilles told me : "TAWs strongest side isn't marines, so you get what I mean".
ps : 6v6 match btw
What I've always seen with this map is marines dominate if they can consistently get out of base in the first 5 minutes, usually keeping Automation. If they can't do that, then aliens easily bottle them up, usually once lerks come up, then it's a turtle. Even if it's 50/50 win ratio, that's all the wrong reasons.
@BeigeAlert Have you seen aliens win in pubs or during the SCC ? When was it ?
just to know. I played a pub once on this version of the map (layout) and marines won.
Taw tested the map like a week ago, and marines won both rounds. And as Mephilles told me : "TAWs strongest side isn't marines, so you get what I mean".
ps : 6v6 match btw
What I've always seen with this map is marines dominate if they can consistently get out of base in the first 5 minutes, usually keeping Automation. If they can't do that, then aliens easily bottle them up, usually once lerks come up, then it's a turtle. Even if it's 50/50 win ratio, that's all the wrong reasons.
Sounds similar to my feedback from awhile back. Whomever holds automation wins.
What I've always seen with this map is marines dominate if they can consistently get out of base in the first 5 minutes, usually keeping Automation. If they can't do that, then aliens easily bottle them up, usually once lerks come up, then it's a turtle. Even if it's 50/50 win ratio, that's all the wrong reasons.
To be perfectly honest that pretty much sounds like a lot of other maps, especially Veil. Also, if marines can't get out of base in 5 minutes on pretty much any map they are bound to lose(eventually). Not sure why people are only seeing this in my map? What I've also seen on pub games, gathers and pcws is that the team that wins has a better coordination/commander/players(not all at once) and usually players that know the map better than people on the other team. That's also part of how NS2 plays as a game, if you don't know the battlefield how are you supposed to play proper strats?
Creating a multiplayer map that is even close to being perfectly balanced is nearly impossible. The only way it's possible is if the maps are 100% symmetrical and both teams are the same(in terms of game mechanics). Balancing even a symmetrical map is hard, and since that's not how NS2 is composed it's even harder. However I am trying my best to look at the trends in actual games(replays, spectating, playing) and adjust the map accordingly. There are still things in Mineral that can be done to help with the balance, but making too big changes at once is more likely to break it than fixing it.
Anyway here's a challenge: "Whoever holds automation wins" - Why?
To be perfectly honest that pretty much sounds like a lot of other maps, especially Veil. Also, if marines can't get out of base in 5 minutes on pretty much any map they are bound to lose(eventually).
I agree, veil is similar. If aliens hold east and west juntion there is no real way for marines to be able to do anything. Both are connected with a vent under nano.
Here on mineral it's security and locker, both are connected with automation. Now the only difference is that locker, security and automation are way faster and easier to reach for marines than east- and west junction
Lol I'd say it's a good thing. gives way more chance for marines to actually do something. And it's not almost immediately GG if you don't have nano and don't manage to push another of their natural RT. The importance of Automation stays relative, and not comparable to Nano on Veil.
I agree on the fact that if aliens take Automation it's gonna be hard. But let the aliens take Crossroads or Hub, or Falls and you're as much screwed. You're even less screwed on Mineral since walking times are smaller.
Right now the strongest alien spawn is Drill Site. But even the weakest alien spawn (Mineral Pro) allows for different strats. I think right now, the lack of understanding of how the map works is the biggest issue. And I think that FOR ONCE in NS2 history, alien side is more challeging on a map from the get go. The opposite of Veil
Anyway here's a challenge: "Whoever holds automation wins" - Why?
If marines have automation then they can easily defend their natural rt's and tech up. If aliens hold automation, they have easy access to marine naturals, and can easily defend their naturals. Automation is too close to marine marine naturals is why. If marines hold automation it becomes very difficult, not impossible, to kill marine naturals. Especially security. Since marines are in a more forward position they are more likely to push alien rt's keeping them off their res. If marines hold generators and loading bay they can easily lane block the entire south of the map.
If marines don't take automation, they can not easily push past loading bay. If they sneak by they will have aliens coming at them from all directions and have a swift death. The next natural direction is to go to production. Production isn't bad, but it is a singular direction to push easily countered by aliens.
If aliens have a tunnel there they can spawn and run there pretty quick. Once a hive goes up in automation they just can spam lockers and security with great numbers. If aliens somehow don't kill the rt's marines will be unable to move past their naturals. This will cause aliens to have an extreme res advantage.
If aliens don't take automation, they can not easily push past loading bay. They can probably hold 3-5 rt's depending on marine aggression. They are more likely to be forced into defending because marines will be on their res. This is natural, but there are few lanes to make it somewhere south on the map.
It is crucial marines hold automation if they want to last in the game long. Usually it will put them in a place to win. It is a near guaranteed win if aliens can hold automation because they are so close to marine naturals.
I could take this same argument and put it to summit, but it would not be the same.
If marines have crossroads then they can have a slight advantage at defending their natural rt's and tech up. If aliens hold crossroads, they have easy access to marine naturals, and have a slight advantage at defending their natural rt's and tech up. If marines hold crossroads it becomes only slightly harder to get to and kill marine naturals. Since marines are in a more forward position they are more likely to push alien rt's keeping them off their res. If marines hold both datacore and flight, aliens are in a precarious position but it is still not too difficult to get to and kill marine back res.
If aliens have a tunnel in crossroads there they can spawn and run there pretty quick. Once a hive goes up in automation they just can spam lockers and security with great numbers. The difference here is the marine naturals are further away from crossroads, and easier to defend.
This is a combination of just looking at the map, and my experiences having been playing the map on TGNS.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I can say once aliens have automation marines have a hard time. I agree on that one so far. But autmation is closer to the marine base so aliens have to take it first. Marines having automation is no winning guarantee at all. It's quite easy to hold 4 RTs if you stay defensive you are right. but at the same time you give aliens 4-5 RTs aswell...
I could take this same argument and put it to summit, but it would not be the same.
Yeah, because Mineral isn't Summit, and it doesn't even have a Summit-like layout. Hell I think on Mineral each fight is highly important. If you're talking about pubs, where it's easy to take automation with a couple of gorges and pve (yeah I've seen that), in a 6v6 environement, Automation is pretty marines friendly because of its location (not its design).
And biting RT has been made easier and easier thanks to well placed vents over the last months. Vent Secu/Loading, Secu/Auto, Prod/Lounge, East Path/Transfer. So that you can (if you want) bypass marines and go to the next RT.
Perfect balance cannot be achieved, perfect balance may be boring, every single game is different from another. Knowledge of the map, chokepoints, things to defend, to push, when, skill lvl, team balance. All these can change a game. And despite all of this, I think Mineral is an excellent map. Because it has proven that both aliens and marines can win if they know what to do and do it well.
Hell I even saw 20+ mns games on it with a lot of back and forth
I can say once aliens have automation marines have a hard time. I agree on that one so far. But autmation is closer to the marine base so aliens have to take it first. Marines having automation is no winning guarantee at all. It's quite easy to hold 4 RTs if you stay defensive you are right. but at the same time you give aliens 4-5 RTs aswell...
I could take this same argument and put it to summit, but it would not be the same.
Yeah, because Mineral isn't Summit, and it doesn't even have a Summit-like layout. Hell I think on Mineral each fight is highly important. If you're talking about pubs, where it's easy to take automation with a couple of gorges and pve (yeah I've seen that), in a 6v6 environement, Automation is pretty marines friendly because of its location (not its design).
And biting RT has been made easier and easier thanks to well placed vents over the last months. Vent Secu/Loading, Secu/Auto, Prod/Lounge, East Path/Transfer. So that you can (if you want) bypass marines and go to the next RT.
Perfect balance cannot be achieved, perfect balance may be boring, every single game is different from another. Knowledge of the map, chokepoints, things to defend, to push, when, skill lvl, team balance. All these can change a game. And despite all of this, I think Mineral is an excellent map. Because it has proven that both aliens and marines can win if they know what to do and do it well.
Hell I even saw 20+ mns games on it with a lot of back and forth
I think it is a fairly obvious fact that perfect balance can not be achieved.
Mineral is its own unique map, and I appreciate that. I have been enjoying my games on mineral. Earlier in the thread mineral was compared to veil. Veil center is further from mineral than summits center. Crossroads in considered a very strong position. I think it is fair to compare the relative strength of crossroads vs automation as I did in my previous post. Automation is far stronger a position.
I am prone to absolutist statements, and saying that whomever holds automation is absolutist. I still think my feedback is valid in that I am not the only one who has such ideas about the map.
TGNS may be a pub, but it is a high level pub in the games I have played. It is also 8v8. I think it is a valid server for comparison, although my experiences there provide a limited sample size to what you both have seen.
Mephilles does agree that if aliens have automation, marines will have a hard time. I think it is a extremely hard time. I thought I explained in my previous post that aliens are stronger in automation in marines. I did say marines are more likely to win if they hold automation from better holding of res, but aliens are practically guaranteed a win.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2015
Awesomes to everyone for healthy discussion!
Also in case I was misunderstood as being cocky and not wanting to listen to people, I want to clarify that I wanted to challenge the different views on what is going on with Automation because I felt that saying "X is such and such, fix it"(not exactly but you get the point) is very little information to go by. I need well thought out reasons why people feel something is the way it is. The amount of thought and planning that has gone into every single change in Mineral since I started drawing the first layout nearly 1.5 years ago is no joke. I take this very seriously and want to provide an experience that is as good as possible for everyone. I must admit though that I do favor competitive play slightly since I played competitive NS2 for nearly 3 years myself.
I will get back to you all when I have some ideas about what could potentially help better the balance around Automation. It's very tough to come up with solutions for a single area where I have reworked the room itself and what is around it several times already.
Thanks to everyone for feedback, and remember good feedback also includes the why's. How's are bonuses and all suggestions will be considered heavily!
I could see the map being a bit competitive oriented and I think that is a good place to start. High level pub play is usually just messy comp play with more people. Low level pubs are just messy.
One thing I would want to know is how does 8v8 or higher play differently than 6v6 on mineral. Especially in and around automation.
From my experience on tgns, everyone knows how strong automation is. So every alien rushes there first thing. Marines send people there but a varying amount usually build the naturals first.
So a lot of people make it into automation, there is a big fight. One side will win the engagement. If aliens got a tunnel up, they might get a second chance at holding the room shortly. Marines could organize and kill the tunnel shortly after if aliens did get a tunnel. Really, this sounds not too different than how I think comp play would go.
@MasterG, are most of the videos you get of 6v6 or do any of your test play with more than that? Maybe I could organize tgns to play mineral while I record in spectator a couple rounds.
From my experience on tgns, everyone knows how strong automation is. So every alien rushes there first thing. Marines send people there but a varying amount usually build the naturals first.
Like on every other ns2 map.
"I WANT A GORGE TUNNEL TO CROSSROADS/FALLS/NANO" xD and marines comm "GO CROSS/FALLS/NANO"
So a lot of people make it into automation, there is a big fight. One side will win the engagement. If aliens got a tunnel up, they might get a second chance at holding the room shortly. Marines could organize and kill the tunnel shortly after if aliens did get a tunnel. Really, this sounds not too different than how I think comp play would go
No tunnel in Automation in comp, would never work, like never. At the start of a comp game, marines have the upper hand, because they are supposed to win engagements. I've never seen a tunnel in Cross in early game. and even if the tunnel went up, I would go down in one or maybe two pushes.
As a side note I did see an Automation alien relocation once xD hilarious, and it worked xD
PS : Tactical Gamers right ? can you give me a notification when the server is about full, so I can't spec that, or play the game. Does this server run mineral often btw ?
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2015
8vs8 compared to 6vs6 is pretty much just a bit more crowded, but that goes for any map so it doesn't really say much. Another thing that goes for any map is that both teams have a tendency to rush to important locations, so I'm not sure if it's all related to Automation. It may in fact just be how a lot of people play the game and perceive to be the way that the game should be played.
To be honest the public games I've witnessed(either through VODs or live) have been super messy with no organisation from both teams and the winning factors of the matches have been almost purely based on coincidence as far as I've been able to tell. 6vs6 play with actual teams have been fairly even when the teams have been a fair match. Other 6vs6's with uneven teams have been organised but still of little value in terms of which side(aliens or marines) has been stronger.
A replay or live spectate on a 7vs7 or 8vs8 on TGNS would be appreciated very much. Something that is always very nice is to hear how the teams communicate because it is such a crucial factor in NS2. No communication generally means you're gonna lose, unless the other team does the exact same thing.
To say something and still nothing, there are ideas floating around about some seriously experimental changes to the map that may completely break it or help solving a lot of issues. More info on this later. Tomorrow I will(hopefully) release a hot-fix for a few issues that have been discovered with the latest release and then I'll take it from there.
From my experience on tgns, everyone knows how strong automation is. So every alien rushes there first thing. Marines send people there but a varying amount usually build the naturals first.
Like on every other ns2 map.
"I WANT A GORGE TUNNEL TO CROSSROADS/FALLS/NANO" xD and marines comm "GO CROSS/FALLS/NANO"
So a lot of people make it into automation, there is a big fight. One side will win the engagement. If aliens got a tunnel up, they might get a second chance at holding the room shortly. Marines could organize and kill the tunnel shortly after if aliens did get a tunnel. Really, this sounds not too different than how I think comp play would go
No tunnel in Automation in comp, would never work, like never. At the start of a comp game, marines have the upper hand, because they are supposed to win engagements. I've never seen a tunnel in Cross in early game. and even if the tunnel went up, I would go down in one or maybe two pushes.
As a side note I did see an Automation alien relocation once xD hilarious, and it worked xD
PS : Tactical Gamers right ? can you give me a notification when the server is about full, so I can't spec that, or play the game. Does this server run mineral often btw ?
That is why I brought that up, is because it is like every other map in that regard. Go cross, falls, nano. Whomever wins that initial engagement for automation seems to happen in most games.
I will send you a steam friend invite. Tactical gamers is correct. It is 8v8 but with 8 spectator slots. TGNS does play mineral, but not too often. Saying this, I know I have a limited sample of games on mineral.
8vs8 compared to 6vs6 is pretty much just a bit more crowded, but that goes for any map so it doesn't really say much. Another thing that goes for any map is that both teams have a tendency to rush to important locations, so I'm not sure if it's all related to Automation. It may in fact just be how a lot of people play the game and perceive to be the way that the game should be played.
To be honest the public games I've witnessed(either through VODs or live) have been super messy with no organisation from both teams and the winning factors of the matches have been almost purely based on coincidence as far as I've been able to tell. 6vs6 play with actual teams have been fairly even when the teams have been a fair match. Other 6vs6's with uneven teams have been organised but still of little value in terms of which side(aliens or marines) has been stronger.
A replay or live spectate on a 7vs7 or 8vs8 on TGNS would be appreciated very much. Something that is always very nice is to hear how the teams communicate because it is such a crucial factor in NS2. No communication generally means you're gonna lose, unless the other team does the exact same thing.
To say something and still nothing, there are ideas floating around about some seriously experimental changes to the map that may completely break it or help solving a lot of issues. More info on this later. Tomorrow I will(hopefully) release a hot-fix for a few issues that have been discovered with the latest release and then I'll take it from there.
I can't say always, but tgns usually has pretty decent teamwork and communication if you have enough regulars on. As a spectator you can turn on and hear both teams voice chat too. Friday night captain games are even better.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2015
Hotfix B2.021 is out on the workshop.
- Fixed bug where commanders could build structures inside the pillars in Surface.
- Adjusted occlusion geometry in Stasis to hopefully render less of the outside/skybox area when standing in Surface.
- Adjusted and added some collision geometry in Security(specially around the escalators) to avoid potential stuck spots and generally allow for better movement(mostly for skulk/onos)
- Raised door to Security ventilation slightly due to reports that the opening was too tight(marines and fades still need to crouch!).
So I asked the people who were on TGNS tonight to vote in Mineral so I could record a pub game. Please don't take the map hate personally. I think it was a decent round to record, if not a bit marine sided. I will let the video stand for itself. I will try to get more videos too.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
So I just took a look at that map version and think I'm in love with security design. But I guess it's because it reminds me of platform on my map.
Anyway I noticed a tiny flaw in my opinion
That's the connection from automation to east path. When I am in a hurry I can't figure out which way to go. Both ways would help the lerk tbh because one side has a vent and the other the hallway. Also you have this catwalk thingy on the ground showing the direction but that is very subtile. I would suggest adding a blueish light like you have in east path so it is visible on the right side if the dorrway (from this angle). This basically gives a colour indication of which way to go
This was a fun game to watch. A bit of back and forth ending in an alien win. A multitude of people gave feedback.
This other game I recorded was not great. It was very marine sided, not so much because of a skill imbalance, but because the alien team did not want to play mineral. I don't know if there is much fruitful feedback here but I recorded it anyways so I might as well post it.
Echoing some of what's being said in the above video. There's a lot of open space, and clear lines. not very much for aliens to hide. Think Transit/Smelting on Refinery, or Atmos or even bamboo Pass on Biodome. There's pillars, pipes, and even rafters to use to dodge.
For the most part, mineral doesn't have anything to put between you and the marine.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2015
TAW tested mineral yesterday again... but thx to our server admin not being there only one of the 2 servers played mineral so no stream for you to watch sadly (8v8 btw)
I'll quickly report how those 2 rounds went
screenshot of the map to follow more easily
round 1: I was in marine team, Alien start was mineral processing.
Automation got skulk rushed at the beginning while lockers and productions got capped and I was pushing directly into pump control/station killing the gorge and 2-3 skulks while holding that position. Marines quickly had control over automation and loading bay. Marines pushed into Generators to get a PG up there and in during the fight in generators we got a PG in pumpstation aswell. we lost both after some time though due to gorge being able to bilebomb carefree out of the generator vents (even the power). So we rebuild the PG in transfer and started to arc from... connection? the bitch that kills you?... you know that room between generator and mineral... well it didn't take long untill marines win from that point
rouns 2: teams swicthed, same spawns
Aliens were able to cyst and cap RTs up to transport this time and marines didn't even care to attack pump control. Marines got PGs very early in automation and generators. We couldn't clear those PGs since they had mine and sentry support (I assume they had low upgrades the whole game).
Here happened basically the same thing. ARCS at the same spot and gg.
So for our alien round I think resbiting was close to non existent. The security vent is a good solution to make it possible to bite security and yeah I don't think lockers and production got bitten that much.
2 things I want to say though: We played with Compmod R4 so the expansion on drill site and transport was very weak and easy to clear (not a map problem though). The players weren't rly aware of this fact
The other thing is that I as marine had no problems to see the aliens. This map is generally a very bright map compared to others. If you look at my map I intentionally made places where I think aliens should have an advantage darker, meaning low intensity and coloured light (not sure if coloured light is necessary though).
I know I am one of the best players in TAW but that's too much
I recorded some very odd games tonight. I will post them later when I have time. One important feedback I received was about mineral hive. The aliens had to cyst the rt in mineral, which was their starting hive. I am unsure if that is by design, but very few maps do that.
I think there is some interesting gameplay to watch in this. One thing to know is that people typically play alien way better than marine. I believe that is how div 3-4 comp play is also. In the 2nd and more interesting round, aliens were down some players for awhile.
Ok, so far I've just watched the first game, and it is again a very high tech game for marines. Although they did partly relocate to Cross and lost a lot of early Tres. Bite res was alright for a moment then marines tech skyrocketed in just a few minutes. They have constant 5 res and more. We see double pressure in Storage/Drill and Gen/Mineral, aliens chose to defend instead of taking down Automation. Now could they have done it ? probably not, there were Ips in Auto, plus comm could've beaconned (the OBS was in Auto). The hive vs Surface trade wouldn't have been viable as well since it would have taken too much time gathering people, travelling to Surface unoticed and taking it down.
So regarding what was observed in this game, this confirms my concerns and my suggestions of removing the TP and RT in Auto, reworking the Gen/Connection connectivity, using bigger/wider/larger entrance doors in Gen both towards Transfer and Connection. @MasterG your idea of rotating Mineral so that the TP is in the north is still relevant and needed imo.
Also, I've been thinking about your idea of connecting Gen to Pump Stations, and I think that wouldn't quite work, because its purpose is to be a secondary lane, but it wouldn't work as such.
Let me explain my point :
. You have Automation (RT)
. You push Gen with two dudes (most common thing to do)
. You probably have two other guys dicking around Loading Bay pushing Pump Control (because if you push Gen with two marines that means there is a hive in Mineral) because there is probably an RT there as well.
. Therefore you have double easy pressure. If aliens want to go to Automation they have to go through one or the other group of marines, or travel all the way around Stations/Drill/Transport to be able to hit anything.
. The issue is : you're able to apply double pressure and lane block at the same time. Double pressure is supposed to leave your lanes open, it's supposed to be a risky move. In Mineral as of now, it allows you to pressure, maintain map control and prevent bite res, and tech up. No downsides.
My suggestion :
. adding a lane from Automation to Pump Stations
. extra lane for aliens to bypass marines and go res bitting.
. lane to the center of the map
. with no RT or TP in Auto and a direct lane to Auto, that means you have to place a marine there to keep this lane.
. In most marines splits, you would have two guys pushing, one capping, and others pushing alone and holding lanes.
. so one guy constantly in Auto to prevent skulks from resbitting, so less marines to push, so probably no double pressure without a trade off.
. Also, if you hold Auto, you now have only 4 RTs potentially 5 if you take Gen or Transport depending on alien spawn. but the fifth RT is in "alien territory' and supposed to be more vulnerable.
. To me this should slow down marines tech (which is always really high on Mineral) and cause more recapping, and force the commander to be more careful as to what he does in terms of lane blocking a pressure.
to be continued when I finish watching the second game Nordic posted.
also : I do agree that the map is bright. Maybe tune down the lighting in some areas.
Comments
MV is probably the one who has played the map most out of anyone. But I have also seen the tendency of the map being slightly marine sided for a while. This was the whole purpose of redoing the stairs in loading bay, redesigning security and adding the vents security->loading and eastpath->transfer. With these small changes I'm hoping that the southern lanes will be slightly harder for marines to hold instead of how easy it has been(specifically the south-west side) for a long time now.
The timings seem good to me and have been tested thoroughly for over 3 months and are easily comparable to the official maps. I feel like people don't really know the map well enough and possibly try to play the same strats as other maps even though NS2 is alot about adapting to different settings and obstacles. You can't play veil as if it was summit, just saying.
just to know. I played a pub once on this version of the map (layout) and marines won.
Taw tested the map like a week ago, and marines won both rounds. And as Mephilles told me : "TAWs strongest side isn't marines, so you get what I mean".
ps : 6v6 match btw
What I've always seen with this map is marines dominate if they can consistently get out of base in the first 5 minutes, usually keeping Automation. If they can't do that, then aliens easily bottle them up, usually once lerks come up, then it's a turtle. Even if it's 50/50 win ratio, that's all the wrong reasons.
Sounds similar to my feedback from awhile back. Whomever holds automation wins.
To be perfectly honest that pretty much sounds like a lot of other maps, especially Veil. Also, if marines can't get out of base in 5 minutes on pretty much any map they are bound to lose(eventually). Not sure why people are only seeing this in my map? What I've also seen on pub games, gathers and pcws is that the team that wins has a better coordination/commander/players(not all at once) and usually players that know the map better than people on the other team. That's also part of how NS2 plays as a game, if you don't know the battlefield how are you supposed to play proper strats?
Creating a multiplayer map that is even close to being perfectly balanced is nearly impossible. The only way it's possible is if the maps are 100% symmetrical and both teams are the same(in terms of game mechanics). Balancing even a symmetrical map is hard, and since that's not how NS2 is composed it's even harder. However I am trying my best to look at the trends in actual games(replays, spectating, playing) and adjust the map accordingly. There are still things in Mineral that can be done to help with the balance, but making too big changes at once is more likely to break it than fixing it.
Anyway here's a challenge: "Whoever holds automation wins" - Why?
I agree, veil is similar. If aliens hold east and west juntion there is no real way for marines to be able to do anything. Both are connected with a vent under nano.
Here on mineral it's security and locker, both are connected with automation. Now the only difference is that locker, security and automation are way faster and easier to reach for marines than east- and west junction
I agree on the fact that if aliens take Automation it's gonna be hard. But let the aliens take Crossroads or Hub, or Falls and you're as much screwed. You're even less screwed on Mineral since walking times are smaller.
Right now the strongest alien spawn is Drill Site. But even the weakest alien spawn (Mineral Pro) allows for different strats. I think right now, the lack of understanding of how the map works is the biggest issue. And I think that FOR ONCE in NS2 history, alien side is more challeging on a map from the get go. The opposite of Veil
If marines have automation then they can easily defend their natural rt's and tech up. If aliens hold automation, they have easy access to marine naturals, and can easily defend their naturals. Automation is too close to marine marine naturals is why. If marines hold automation it becomes very difficult, not impossible, to kill marine naturals. Especially security. Since marines are in a more forward position they are more likely to push alien rt's keeping them off their res. If marines hold generators and loading bay they can easily lane block the entire south of the map.
If marines don't take automation, they can not easily push past loading bay. If they sneak by they will have aliens coming at them from all directions and have a swift death. The next natural direction is to go to production. Production isn't bad, but it is a singular direction to push easily countered by aliens.
If aliens have a tunnel there they can spawn and run there pretty quick. Once a hive goes up in automation they just can spam lockers and security with great numbers. If aliens somehow don't kill the rt's marines will be unable to move past their naturals. This will cause aliens to have an extreme res advantage.
If aliens don't take automation, they can not easily push past loading bay. They can probably hold 3-5 rt's depending on marine aggression. They are more likely to be forced into defending because marines will be on their res. This is natural, but there are few lanes to make it somewhere south on the map.
It is crucial marines hold automation if they want to last in the game long. Usually it will put them in a place to win. It is a near guaranteed win if aliens can hold automation because they are so close to marine naturals.
I could take this same argument and put it to summit, but it would not be the same.
If marines have crossroads then they can have a slight advantage at defending their natural rt's and tech up. If aliens hold crossroads, they have easy access to marine naturals, and have a slight advantage at defending their natural rt's and tech up. If marines hold crossroads it becomes only slightly harder to get to and kill marine naturals. Since marines are in a more forward position they are more likely to push alien rt's keeping them off their res. If marines hold both datacore and flight, aliens are in a precarious position but it is still not too difficult to get to and kill marine back res.
If aliens have a tunnel in crossroads there they can spawn and run there pretty quick. Once a hive goes up in automation they just can spam lockers and security with great numbers. The difference here is the marine naturals are further away from crossroads, and easier to defend.
This is a combination of just looking at the map, and my experiences having been playing the map on TGNS.
oh and @MasterG I think this is a good thing
And biting RT has been made easier and easier thanks to well placed vents over the last months. Vent Secu/Loading, Secu/Auto, Prod/Lounge, East Path/Transfer. So that you can (if you want) bypass marines and go to the next RT.
Perfect balance cannot be achieved, perfect balance may be boring, every single game is different from another. Knowledge of the map, chokepoints, things to defend, to push, when, skill lvl, team balance. All these can change a game. And despite all of this, I think Mineral is an excellent map. Because it has proven that both aliens and marines can win if they know what to do and do it well.
Hell I even saw 20+ mns games on it with a lot of back and forth
I think it is a fairly obvious fact that perfect balance can not be achieved.
Mineral is its own unique map, and I appreciate that. I have been enjoying my games on mineral. Earlier in the thread mineral was compared to veil. Veil center is further from mineral than summits center. Crossroads in considered a very strong position. I think it is fair to compare the relative strength of crossroads vs automation as I did in my previous post. Automation is far stronger a position.
I am prone to absolutist statements, and saying that whomever holds automation is absolutist. I still think my feedback is valid in that I am not the only one who has such ideas about the map.
TGNS may be a pub, but it is a high level pub in the games I have played. It is also 8v8. I think it is a valid server for comparison, although my experiences there provide a limited sample size to what you both have seen.
Mephilles does agree that if aliens have automation, marines will have a hard time. I think it is a extremely hard time. I thought I explained in my previous post that aliens are stronger in automation in marines. I did say marines are more likely to win if they hold automation from better holding of res, but aliens are practically guaranteed a win.
Also in case I was misunderstood as being cocky and not wanting to listen to people, I want to clarify that I wanted to challenge the different views on what is going on with Automation because I felt that saying "X is such and such, fix it"(not exactly but you get the point) is very little information to go by. I need well thought out reasons why people feel something is the way it is. The amount of thought and planning that has gone into every single change in Mineral since I started drawing the first layout nearly 1.5 years ago is no joke. I take this very seriously and want to provide an experience that is as good as possible for everyone. I must admit though that I do favor competitive play slightly since I played competitive NS2 for nearly 3 years myself.
I will get back to you all when I have some ideas about what could potentially help better the balance around Automation. It's very tough to come up with solutions for a single area where I have reworked the room itself and what is around it several times already.
Thanks to everyone for feedback, and remember good feedback also includes the why's. How's are bonuses and all suggestions will be considered heavily!
I could see the map being a bit competitive oriented and I think that is a good place to start. High level pub play is usually just messy comp play with more people. Low level pubs are just messy.
One thing I would want to know is how does 8v8 or higher play differently than 6v6 on mineral. Especially in and around automation.
From my experience on tgns, everyone knows how strong automation is. So every alien rushes there first thing. Marines send people there but a varying amount usually build the naturals first.
So a lot of people make it into automation, there is a big fight. One side will win the engagement. If aliens got a tunnel up, they might get a second chance at holding the room shortly. Marines could organize and kill the tunnel shortly after if aliens did get a tunnel. Really, this sounds not too different than how I think comp play would go.
@MasterG, are most of the videos you get of 6v6 or do any of your test play with more than that? Maybe I could organize tgns to play mineral while I record in spectator a couple rounds.
"I WANT A GORGE TUNNEL TO CROSSROADS/FALLS/NANO" xD and marines comm "GO CROSS/FALLS/NANO"
No tunnel in Automation in comp, would never work, like never. At the start of a comp game, marines have the upper hand, because they are supposed to win engagements. I've never seen a tunnel in Cross in early game. and even if the tunnel went up, I would go down in one or maybe two pushes.
As a side note I did see an Automation alien relocation once xD hilarious, and it worked xD
PS : Tactical Gamers right ? can you give me a notification when the server is about full, so I can't spec that, or play the game. Does this server run mineral often btw ?
To be honest the public games I've witnessed(either through VODs or live) have been super messy with no organisation from both teams and the winning factors of the matches have been almost purely based on coincidence as far as I've been able to tell. 6vs6 play with actual teams have been fairly even when the teams have been a fair match. Other 6vs6's with uneven teams have been organised but still of little value in terms of which side(aliens or marines) has been stronger.
A replay or live spectate on a 7vs7 or 8vs8 on TGNS would be appreciated very much. Something that is always very nice is to hear how the teams communicate because it is such a crucial factor in NS2. No communication generally means you're gonna lose, unless the other team does the exact same thing.
To say something and still nothing, there are ideas floating around about some seriously experimental changes to the map that may completely break it or help solving a lot of issues. More info on this later. Tomorrow I will(hopefully) release a hot-fix for a few issues that have been discovered with the latest release and then I'll take it from there.
That is why I brought that up, is because it is like every other map in that regard. Go cross, falls, nano. Whomever wins that initial engagement for automation seems to happen in most games.
I will send you a steam friend invite. Tactical gamers is correct. It is 8v8 but with 8 spectator slots. TGNS does play mineral, but not too often. Saying this, I know I have a limited sample of games on mineral.
I can't say always, but tgns usually has pretty decent teamwork and communication if you have enough regulars on. As a spectator you can turn on and hear both teams voice chat too. Friday night captain games are even better.
- Fixed bug where commanders could build structures inside the pillars in Surface.
- Adjusted occlusion geometry in Stasis to hopefully render less of the outside/skybox area when standing in Surface.
- Adjusted and added some collision geometry in Security(specially around the escalators) to avoid potential stuck spots and generally allow for better movement(mostly for skulk/onos)
- Raised door to Security ventilation slightly due to reports that the opening was too tight(marines and fades still need to crouch!).
masterg : "don't show that !"
mv : "that's why it's between spoiler tags"
Change log:
- DAMN YOU MVEEEEE!!!!!!
- Thank you MV.... I fixed it.
- Removed a bunch of redundant collision on silly props.
Anyway I noticed a tiny flaw in my opinion
That's the connection from automation to east path. When I am in a hurry I can't figure out which way to go. Both ways would help the lerk tbh because one side has a vent and the other the hallway. Also you have this catwalk thingy on the ground showing the direction but that is very subtile. I would suggest adding a blueish light like you have in east path so it is visible on the right side if the dorrway (from this angle). This basically gives a colour indication of which way to go
This other game I recorded was not great. It was very marine sided, not so much because of a skill imbalance, but because the alien team did not want to play mineral. I don't know if there is much fruitful feedback here but I recorded it anyways so I might as well post it.
For the most part, mineral doesn't have anything to put between you and the marine.
I'll quickly report how those 2 rounds went
screenshot of the map to follow more easily
round 1: I was in marine team, Alien start was mineral processing.
Automation got skulk rushed at the beginning while lockers and productions got capped and I was pushing directly into pump control/station killing the gorge and 2-3 skulks while holding that position. Marines quickly had control over automation and loading bay. Marines pushed into Generators to get a PG up there and in during the fight in generators we got a PG in pumpstation aswell. we lost both after some time though due to gorge being able to bilebomb carefree out of the generator vents (even the power). So we rebuild the PG in transfer and started to arc from... connection? the bitch that kills you?... you know that room between generator and mineral... well it didn't take long untill marines win from that point
rouns 2: teams swicthed, same spawns
Aliens were able to cyst and cap RTs up to transport this time and marines didn't even care to attack pump control. Marines got PGs very early in automation and generators. We couldn't clear those PGs since they had mine and sentry support (I assume they had low upgrades the whole game).
Here happened basically the same thing. ARCS at the same spot and gg.
So for our alien round I think resbiting was close to non existent. The security vent is a good solution to make it possible to bite security and yeah I don't think lockers and production got bitten that much.
2 things I want to say though: We played with Compmod R4 so the expansion on drill site and transport was very weak and easy to clear (not a map problem though). The players weren't rly aware of this fact
The other thing is that I as marine had no problems to see the aliens. This map is generally a very bright map compared to others. If you look at my map I intentionally made places where I think aliens should have an advantage darker, meaning low intensity and coloured light (not sure if coloured light is necessary though).
I know I am one of the best players in TAW but that's too much
I think there is some interesting gameplay to watch in this. One thing to know is that people typically play alien way better than marine. I believe that is how div 3-4 comp play is also. In the 2nd and more interesting round, aliens were down some players for awhile.
So regarding what was observed in this game, this confirms my concerns and my suggestions of removing the TP and RT in Auto, reworking the Gen/Connection connectivity, using bigger/wider/larger entrance doors in Gen both towards Transfer and Connection. @MasterG your idea of rotating Mineral so that the TP is in the north is still relevant and needed imo.
Also, I've been thinking about your idea of connecting Gen to Pump Stations, and I think that wouldn't quite work, because its purpose is to be a secondary lane, but it wouldn't work as such.
Let me explain my point :
. You have Automation (RT)
. You push Gen with two dudes (most common thing to do)
. You probably have two other guys dicking around Loading Bay pushing Pump Control (because if you push Gen with two marines that means there is a hive in Mineral) because there is probably an RT there as well.
. Therefore you have double easy pressure. If aliens want to go to Automation they have to go through one or the other group of marines, or travel all the way around Stations/Drill/Transport to be able to hit anything.
. The issue is : you're able to apply double pressure and lane block at the same time. Double pressure is supposed to leave your lanes open, it's supposed to be a risky move. In Mineral as of now, it allows you to pressure, maintain map control and prevent bite res, and tech up. No downsides.
My suggestion :
. adding a lane from Automation to Pump Stations
. extra lane for aliens to bypass marines and go res bitting.
. lane to the center of the map
. with no RT or TP in Auto and a direct lane to Auto, that means you have to place a marine there to keep this lane.
. In most marines splits, you would have two guys pushing, one capping, and others pushing alone and holding lanes.
. so one guy constantly in Auto to prevent skulks from resbitting, so less marines to push, so probably no double pressure without a trade off.
. Also, if you hold Auto, you now have only 4 RTs potentially 5 if you take Gen or Transport depending on alien spawn. but the fifth RT is in "alien territory' and supposed to be more vulnerable.
. To me this should slow down marines tech (which is always really high on Mineral) and cause more recapping, and force the commander to be more careful as to what he does in terms of lane blocking a pressure.
to be continued when I finish watching the second game Nordic posted.
also : I do agree that the map is bright. Maybe tune down the lighting in some areas.