Reminds me of crag un ET healing Mezzanine, or crag in Dome healing C-12. Not a huge issue imo as holding in Connection is probably easier than holding Gen itself, and also los to the crag from connection entrance is marines friendly enough
Docking is good for this too, but my spots are too known. Both of generators naturals can be healed from behind a wall.
"Both of Gen naturals" ? What do you mean ?
You can put crags here. I said docking, but picture for confirmation.
Reminds me of crag un ET healing Mezzanine, or crag in Dome healing C-12. Not a huge issue imo as holding in Connection is probably easier than holding Gen itself, and also los to the crag from connection entrance is marines friendly enough
Docking is good for this too, but my spots are too known. Both of generators naturals can be healed from behind a wall.
"Both of Gen naturals" ? What do you mean ?
You can put crags here.
Someone didn't premultiply their alpha channel... :P
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Well, I want to be the best resource I can. Everybody needs feedback, and I'm super impressed by how well G's been gauging games and thoughts so far. I'm glad I've had the chance to play some matches against Titus and Chams on it as well, led to some awesome engagements trying desperately to learn the map as we played.
Also, on Docking, you can see how even though both Gen naturals allow for crags through walls, neither is still favorable for aliens (but that's due to other reasons)
G wants to have the map finished by the end of May or mid June, in regard to detailing the whole thing. And the goal is to have it still played during the next NSL season.
Looking forward to seeing how the new version plays out in terms of balance in early game.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2015
The map being finished end of May/mid-June is not realistic anymore, unfortunately that ship sailed some weeks ago. I have other focus areas that need more attention at the moment, for example my Bachelor's thesis on multiplayer level design and the fact that I need to get a job. Let's aim for October just to be a little bit pessimistic!
So in response to your epic feedback @Zavaro I'm gonna try to make this very orderly.
Mineral Processing
I've been thinking a lot about that blue crate and how to potentially remove it without creating a too long line of sight from Connection. I have some ideas that I will discuss with MV later today while ingame. I like your idea of opening up the hive area.
My idea, which is hard to explain in words but here goes, is that I can sort of do the same thing as I did with the entrance to Automation from Waiting. In essence making two entry points to the "hive room", these entry points would be smaller than the current large opening, but not a lot.
The line of sight from the RT to the hive would be blocked by a pillar that is equally wide(or a bit less) as the catwalk(black) between the pipes going towards the hive room from the RT. And the single stair would be constructed in the same way as the stairs leading up to the RT, having two stairs(north/south oriented) instead of the one pointing towards the hive. Effectively this construction would block line of sight along the floor viewing north from Connection, so the blue crate could be removed that way. And so it hopefully eliminates the funneling(both) and creates a clearer path out of the room towards Generators. At the same time I think it would be better for gameplay like you say, and possibly easier for marines to push the room. But not too easy.
EDIT: I took a screenshot of the wall into the hiveroom and made some lines on top to explain the idea visually:
Drill Site
I've been thinking about some changes to Drill Site, but not entirely sure how to go about it. The room is tricky to change because of me turning off the collision on all the rocks(because the collision geometry is WAY too detailed and requires unnecessary resources from people's PCs) and building my own collision on top, something that took several hours to do, but also lowered the draw calls in the room by around 400.
BUT! I think that I could potentially extend the room a little bit south, allowing me to move the drill structure/platform a little bit and creating space by the north entrance for another instance of the catwalk props. Making that extra little space could potentially help with the corner checking. Hope that makes sense.
At the same time the drill structure/platform could be lowered so that it's not so much of a "corner" to check anymore. And lowering it could potentially make it a little more attractive to go up there, because of the new view you would get towards Rupture as marine. One could effectively watch both entrances from the platform.
Removing the drill from Drill Site would make the room terribly open and the "historical" purpose of the room would be completely taken away. So I feel like it needs to be there, if only just for the lore.
EDIT2: Another screenshot with draw-over from Drill Site.
Other things
- Mineral Processing is definitely possible to ARC. It can be done from the edge(railings) where the power node is located in Connection.
- It's been very important to me to create a believable scenery, and the way I've connected rooms(in terms of what order rooms are placed etc) has been an important factor to this even if all the placements don't make 100% sense. I've done my best so far.
- It's good that most of the claustrophobia is starting to go away, I never intended claustrophobic spaces in the first place. But it's easy to go blind on your own work after working on something for more than 1.5 years.
- I have no intention of doing any changes to Lockers other than a change in it's "feeling". But that is something that is planned through changing the lighting alone.
- I've talked to several people as well about the crags, and it seems everyone agrees.
- I also really like Generator's new RT placement and reorganization.
As for making Mineral official, I agree with some spaces needing to get a rework on textures and props to create more consistency throughout the map. One thing though which has been super important in the development process is the story of Mineral. No one really knows it other than me but once I finish actually writing it, it will make sense why some areas are clean and some areas are dirty.
The basic idea of the story, just to throw a bone, is that most of the production areas(Loading, Transport, Storage, Drill, Station, Processing, Pipeline(non-existent between Processing and Transfer), Production) were built first before the facility was abandoned for years and years. Later when it was "reopened" the upgrading of it began and the cleaner areas were built, the Automation system was put in place so the facility could be run with a minimum of 10 people etc.. There's a lot more to it that I need to get down on paper, but the point is that this is very important in terms of why there is a clash between clean and dirty.
It doesn't only have to do with the story, it also has to do with the directional feeling I wanted to create in the map. Using elevation as a reference point to which direction you are headed as well as a change in theme when you get closer to "alien territory". I also think it helps new players learn the map more quickly because it's very easy to identify where you are on the map just by looking at your surroundings even if you didn't play the map 50 times. However I do feel like the clean and dirty themes need to work together in a better way, but that is really hard to achieve since the clean and dirty props and textures of NS2 are so far apart IMO. There are still things I can do with the prop and texture work within my two themes to make it a little better though.
Hope this somewhat clears up why I've chosen to build areas as I have. And to be perfectly honest, it is a vision I'm not likely to give up on because it has been the plan since I started thinking about this map 3 or 4 years ago.
Maybe the map could need a bit more consistency in regard to lighting as you go down towards alien territory.
Because right now it's not very consistent. The most striking example is the Northern lane
As we can see the lighting is consistent between Stations and Min Pro, but there is a cave theme going from Drill to Stations where lighting goes from very bright white lights (Drill) to dimed orange-ish lights (Rupture) to very few lights in a dark kind of cave room (Stations).
Let's check out now the secondary northern lane (Storage/Control/Gen/Break/Transfer)
I like the lighting in Control, the new lighting in Gen doesn't feel/look right. I know G tuned down some lights but maybe it needs more contrast, right now it just looks like there is a lot more lights than in other rooms, even though you dimed the whole thing. Transport Storage is too bright in that regard as well.
Now the middle lane (Waiting/Automation/East Path/Prod)
I think this lane is fine, except maybe Waiting that sticks out in between Secu and Auto (color-wise). The other exception is Prod, but since it's a part of the dirty old Mineral factory lane I think it's fine, and I love the lighting in it so..
And finally the marines territory/southern lane (Marines Start/Secu/Stasis and Lockers)
In terms of props and textures as well as geo this area is quite consistent imo. The work that needs to be done is reworking the lighting (it's already planned for Lockers, we discussed this yesterday when looking at a screenshot of Lockers on his portfolio, we were like "wtf is this ugly-ass green-ish lighting there, get rid of it" XD). I think it's good that only marines start is super bright, but it needs to be the only room really that bright. Marines natural expansion territory needs to be bright as well but more in the likes of Secu and Stasis (where I really like the lighting). So I guess something like that should be done to Lockers as well. I would even say that a similar lighting should be applied in the middle lane, which is already pretty much the case.
From what I've seen so far in the videos :
- Transfer vent entrance location is confusing because of another orange light
- Even though Min Pro entrance is confusing for Beige at first, once he learns where it is he still seems to struggle a bit to go out of the hive. Mouvement is not natural for him. But also, that crate saved his ass multiple times.
- too many crates on the left side of the map, because of the lack of detailing in Loading and Repair.
- Apparently railings in Min Pro are a nuisance.
- Crates in front of doorways.
- Vent entrance in Generators is hard to find (I remember having trouble finding it even a fucking while ago but the light in it is blue, same as the rooms overall lighting)
- Connection was a nightmare to fight in according to Beige. Didn't get to hear everything but I guess it's because it's a tight room.
- Also, don't hide in a vent when you are parasited because you're gonna have 5 aliens coming at you. (Lesson I learned)
. For me it was pretty smooth overall. I found myself checking a lot of corners and was glad to find aliens hidind, waiting to get a drop on me.
. I was surprised that it's pretty hard and risky to get an alien off the Secu RT when you come defend it from Waiting, many props and geo on which your bullets get stopped.
. As is, Gen looks strong as a PG location, although aliens (when we weren't 5 in this room, which seems pretty douchy from our part) managed to take it back several times when they grouped up.
. The Onos attacking Break room PG got fucked by LoS on the way back to Control. maybe it was a bold move because he had one or two skulks with him only, but he got pistoled down as he entered Control when there weren't that many marines shooting in the first place (two in Break, then only one chasing and pistoling him down)
. What I've noticed is that aliens managed to go resbiting pretty easily as well, so that's good. I tried my best to lane-block, but there were just too many options for aliens to bypass us. Cool stuff.
. I've seen balanced engagements in pretty much all the rooms
. Drill Site hive seemed "hard" for aliens to defend. I've only seen the 5 marines shooting range vs two fades so that might explain why I think that.
. I haven't seen any issues with East Path even though the LoS is crazy.
. I loved the rotation possibilities of Automation. Basically I loved rotations on this map. Transfer/East, East/Auto/Break, Auto/Waiting/Loading. Felt great for me (marines)
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
It was good. I didn't have any significant problems for the aliens. I like how Pump acts as an Oxy. I do think that lighting is a bit boring visually, everything is bright white and sterile feeling, leading to confusion in some ways. It plays well, though. I felt like we were losing the entire round, very surprised we came back from that.
From what I've seen so far in the videos :
- Even though Min Pro entrance is confusing for Beige at first, once he learns where it is he still seems to struggle a bit to go out of the hive. Mouvement is not natural for him. But also, that crate saved his ass multiple times.
But honestly compared to the 360s no scope you have to do in Sub-Sector to get out of the hive room (Veil) when you spawn, I couldn't care less about that crate. Especially if all it needs is a little mouse movement
Doesn't feel like there's anywhere nice to stand as a marine to kill drill site hive. We tried to push with 3 SG at one point in that game and the only fairly decent open area to stand in was covered in invisible (shaded) eggs 8)
We did a pretty shit job, and we certainly didn't deserve to take much out vs fades and skulks with all the PVE, but thats just my observation.
. The Onos attacking Break room PG got fucked by LoS on the way back to Control. maybe it was a bold move because he had one or two skulks with him only, but he got pistoled down as he entered Control when there weren't that many marines shooting in the first place (two in Break, then only one chasing and pistoling him down)
If my memory serves me correctly, that onos totally deserved to die IMO, I put a clip in him before he managed to kill me, two other marines were there unloading onto him, he went too deep for too long with little support. Judging based on how fast he went down I dont think he had cara, so 3-4 marines was far too much.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited May 2015
As you can here me say quite clearly at the end there, I still get frustrated with a lot of the obstacles scattered through a lot of rooms. I kept bumping into crates, fences, and walls all the time. Is this just me?
EDIT: Specifically (I am probably forgetting one or two rooms):
The crate in Min Proc towards Connection.
The dividing walls in the middle of Pump Control.
A fence outside the vent from Drill into Pump Station.
All the crates from Drill Site through Repair and Storage.
I still keep knocking into the wall under the vent in Connection (conming from Min Proc) as it feels that's where the route takes me somehow.
The layout of rooms and corridors as well as lighting and architecture indicate the route I have to take to go somewhere, but especially as Fade I find myself having to snake through them in ways that feel counter-intuitive.
I didn't bump much into things except in Storage or Loading, and Min pro in some occasions. The rest of the map is pretty good navigation-wise.
In an effort to make Min Pro less easy for marines to push, you made it super hard to navigate within and push.
Storage has too many crates, you added a lot in the last updates to deal with some lack of cover, but this seems like too much in such a small area. The Min Pro crate didn't cause any issues for me and no comp player during the nsl gather mentionned that as being an issue.
Some mentionned that Min Pro was ridiculously hard to push. Others said that the last update in layout was super sweet.
Also : Gen vent to Break room NEEDS better lighting. As is people have issues finding the entrance. Like really
The map is becoming popular on tgns now. With the updates, and enough playtime on the map people seem to be really enjoying the map. Many people have been saying it is really good.
The map is just so great for lerking too. So much fun. All those vents to do quick little circles to get behind while they wait for you to come out of where you went. I have said that before but it is really true.
Really glad to hear that. On ensl gathers people like it more and more everytime, it's getting more votes than ever.
There are still some things that are frustrating, but we think we've nailed them down and they will be fixed for the next update.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I would suggest moving the generator vent exit to this position:
The current one is in the same field of view as connection doorway which makes it kinda useless for flanking in generator. The one that is marked should be high enough that a single marine can't get in there but low enough that marines can shoot in there far enough to make a bilebombing gorge vulnerable in that vent (the marine can use the props on the left side of the picture to be on the same level as the vent to shoot in there)
I would suggest moving the generator vent exit to this position:
The current one is in the same field of view as connection doorway which makes it kinda useless for flanking in generator. The one that is marked should be high enough that a single marine can't get in there but low enough that marines can shoot in there far enough to make a bilebombing gorge vulnerable in that vent (the marine can use the props on the left side of the picture to be on the same level as the vent to shoot in there)
Comments
Someone didn't premultiply their alpha channel... :P
PS: I didn't read it.
Also, on Docking, you can see how even though both Gen naturals allow for crags through walls, neither is still favorable for aliens (but that's due to other reasons)
Looking forward to seeing how the new version plays out in terms of balance in early game.
So in response to your epic feedback @Zavaro I'm gonna try to make this very orderly.
Mineral Processing
I've been thinking a lot about that blue crate and how to potentially remove it without creating a too long line of sight from Connection. I have some ideas that I will discuss with MV later today while ingame. I like your idea of opening up the hive area.
My idea, which is hard to explain in words but here goes, is that I can sort of do the same thing as I did with the entrance to Automation from Waiting. In essence making two entry points to the "hive room", these entry points would be smaller than the current large opening, but not a lot.
The line of sight from the RT to the hive would be blocked by a pillar that is equally wide(or a bit less) as the catwalk(black) between the pipes going towards the hive room from the RT. And the single stair would be constructed in the same way as the stairs leading up to the RT, having two stairs(north/south oriented) instead of the one pointing towards the hive. Effectively this construction would block line of sight along the floor viewing north from Connection, so the blue crate could be removed that way. And so it hopefully eliminates the funneling(both) and creates a clearer path out of the room towards Generators. At the same time I think it would be better for gameplay like you say, and possibly easier for marines to push the room. But not too easy.
EDIT: I took a screenshot of the wall into the hiveroom and made some lines on top to explain the idea visually:
Drill Site
I've been thinking about some changes to Drill Site, but not entirely sure how to go about it. The room is tricky to change because of me turning off the collision on all the rocks(because the collision geometry is WAY too detailed and requires unnecessary resources from people's PCs) and building my own collision on top, something that took several hours to do, but also lowered the draw calls in the room by around 400.
BUT! I think that I could potentially extend the room a little bit south, allowing me to move the drill structure/platform a little bit and creating space by the north entrance for another instance of the catwalk props. Making that extra little space could potentially help with the corner checking. Hope that makes sense.
At the same time the drill structure/platform could be lowered so that it's not so much of a "corner" to check anymore. And lowering it could potentially make it a little more attractive to go up there, because of the new view you would get towards Rupture as marine. One could effectively watch both entrances from the platform.
Removing the drill from Drill Site would make the room terribly open and the "historical" purpose of the room would be completely taken away. So I feel like it needs to be there, if only just for the lore.
EDIT2: Another screenshot with draw-over from Drill Site.
Other things
- Mineral Processing is definitely possible to ARC. It can be done from the edge(railings) where the power node is located in Connection.
- It's been very important to me to create a believable scenery, and the way I've connected rooms(in terms of what order rooms are placed etc) has been an important factor to this even if all the placements don't make 100% sense. I've done my best so far.
- It's good that most of the claustrophobia is starting to go away, I never intended claustrophobic spaces in the first place. But it's easy to go blind on your own work after working on something for more than 1.5 years.
- I have no intention of doing any changes to Lockers other than a change in it's "feeling". But that is something that is planned through changing the lighting alone.
- I've talked to several people as well about the crags, and it seems everyone agrees.
- I also really like Generator's new RT placement and reorganization.
As for making Mineral official, I agree with some spaces needing to get a rework on textures and props to create more consistency throughout the map. One thing though which has been super important in the development process is the story of Mineral. No one really knows it other than me but once I finish actually writing it, it will make sense why some areas are clean and some areas are dirty.
The basic idea of the story, just to throw a bone, is that most of the production areas(Loading, Transport, Storage, Drill, Station, Processing, Pipeline(non-existent between Processing and Transfer), Production) were built first before the facility was abandoned for years and years. Later when it was "reopened" the upgrading of it began and the cleaner areas were built, the Automation system was put in place so the facility could be run with a minimum of 10 people etc.. There's a lot more to it that I need to get down on paper, but the point is that this is very important in terms of why there is a clash between clean and dirty.
It doesn't only have to do with the story, it also has to do with the directional feeling I wanted to create in the map. Using elevation as a reference point to which direction you are headed as well as a change in theme when you get closer to "alien territory". I also think it helps new players learn the map more quickly because it's very easy to identify where you are on the map just by looking at your surroundings even if you didn't play the map 50 times. However I do feel like the clean and dirty themes need to work together in a better way, but that is really hard to achieve since the clean and dirty props and textures of NS2 are so far apart IMO. There are still things I can do with the prop and texture work within my two themes to make it a little better though.
Hope this somewhat clears up why I've chosen to build areas as I have. And to be perfectly honest, it is a vision I'm not likely to give up on because it has been the plan since I started thinking about this map 3 or 4 years ago.
Because right now it's not very consistent. The most striking example is the Northern lane
Let's check out now the secondary northern lane (Storage/Control/Gen/Break/Transfer)
Now the middle lane (Waiting/Automation/East Path/Prod)
And finally the marines territory/southern lane (Marines Start/Secu/Stasis and Lockers)
- Transfer vent entrance location is confusing because of another orange light
- Even though Min Pro entrance is confusing for Beige at first, once he learns where it is he still seems to struggle a bit to go out of the hive. Mouvement is not natural for him. But also, that crate saved his ass multiple times.
- too many crates on the left side of the map, because of the lack of detailing in Loading and Repair.
- Apparently railings in Min Pro are a nuisance.
- Crates in front of doorways.
- Vent entrance in Generators is hard to find (I remember having trouble finding it even a fucking while ago but the light in it is blue, same as the rooms overall lighting)
- Connection was a nightmare to fight in according to Beige. Didn't get to hear everything but I guess it's because it's a tight room.
- Also, don't hide in a vent when you are parasited because you're gonna have 5 aliens coming at you. (Lesson I learned)
I'd like to get your opinion @Flaterectomy @Zavaro and @BeigeAlert on how the rooms felt in alien territory, especially to fight in.
And @meatmachine @Howser on the marines side.
. For me it was pretty smooth overall. I found myself checking a lot of corners and was glad to find aliens hidind, waiting to get a drop on me.
. I was surprised that it's pretty hard and risky to get an alien off the Secu RT when you come defend it from Waiting, many props and geo on which your bullets get stopped.
. As is, Gen looks strong as a PG location, although aliens (when we weren't 5 in this room, which seems pretty douchy from our part) managed to take it back several times when they grouped up.
. The Onos attacking Break room PG got fucked by LoS on the way back to Control. maybe it was a bold move because he had one or two skulks with him only, but he got pistoled down as he entered Control when there weren't that many marines shooting in the first place (two in Break, then only one chasing and pistoling him down)
. What I've noticed is that aliens managed to go resbiting pretty easily as well, so that's good. I tried my best to lane-block, but there were just too many options for aliens to bypass us. Cool stuff.
. I've seen balanced engagements in pretty much all the rooms
. Drill Site hive seemed "hard" for aliens to defend. I've only seen the 5 marines shooting range vs two fades so that might explain why I think that.
. I haven't seen any issues with East Path even though the LoS is crazy.
. I loved the rotation possibilities of Automation. Basically I loved rotations on this map. Transfer/East, East/Auto/Break, Auto/Waiting/Loading. Felt great for me (marines)
We did a pretty shit job, and we certainly didn't deserve to take much out vs fades and skulks with all the PVE, but thats just my observation.
If my memory serves me correctly, that onos totally deserved to die IMO, I put a clip in him before he managed to kill me, two other marines were there unloading onto him, he went too deep for too long with little support. Judging based on how fast he went down I dont think he had cara, so 3-4 marines was far too much.
Two more rounds (nsl gather to come) tomorrow, because it takes a shit load of time to upload.
EDIT: Specifically (I am probably forgetting one or two rooms):
The crate in Min Proc towards Connection.
The dividing walls in the middle of Pump Control.
A fence outside the vent from Drill into Pump Station.
All the crates from Drill Site through Repair and Storage.
I still keep knocking into the wall under the vent in Connection (conming from Min Proc) as it feels that's where the route takes me somehow.
The layout of rooms and corridors as well as lighting and architecture indicate the route I have to take to go somewhere, but especially as Fade I find myself having to snake through them in ways that feel counter-intuitive.
In an effort to make Min Pro less easy for marines to push, you made it super hard to navigate within and push.
Storage has too many crates, you added a lot in the last updates to deal with some lack of cover, but this seems like too much in such a small area. The Min Pro crate didn't cause any issues for me and no comp player during the nsl gather mentionned that as being an issue.
Some mentionned that Min Pro was ridiculously hard to push. Others said that the last update in layout was super sweet.
Also : Gen vent to Break room NEEDS better lighting. As is people have issues finding the entrance. Like really
Alien :
Marines:
Anyone wondered how I play on a US server, while recording ? Worse than usual, thanks to constant fps drops (OBS). you're warned.
6v6 gather
http://www.twitch.tv/adhd123/v/5487988
The map is just so great for lerking too. So much fun. All those vents to do quick little circles to get behind while they wait for you to come out of where you went. I have said that before but it is really true.
There are still some things that are frustrating, but we think we've nailed them down and they will be fixed for the next update.
The current one is in the same field of view as connection doorway which makes it kinda useless for flanking in generator. The one that is marked should be high enough that a single marine can't get in there but low enough that marines can shoot in there far enough to make a bilebombing gorge vulnerable in that vent (the marine can use the props on the left side of the picture to be on the same level as the vent to shoot in there)
That texture resolution... wow!