Build 268 Live on Steam - Natural Selection 2

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  • HynipsHynips Join Date: 2013-09-06 Member: 187881Members Posts: 7
    Is there any upgrade on whip in near future? They keep missing easily over 50% of their attacks, even on structures, like power nodes and extractors. I just want to use whips over whips over whips, but It has became more and more difficult to convince myself to invest 13 resources on a structure that will most likely not accomplish anything.
    ball2hi
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited August 2014
    Whips are not useless - they give you vision and they can work as area denial. Put one in north tunnels for example so you can respond instantly before the marines reach platform.

    I also like putting a whip in nanogrid, not just for vision, but when the marines enter the room, you can move the whip behind the resource nodes to deny that sweet spot - Marines will either have to move away to the other side, leaving them with a poorer position and easier to clean up. Or they will have to focus the whip first, wasting time and bullets.

    I know what you're saying, having the whip actually work consistently would be nice. I just feel like it has to be said, that there is more depth to the whip than just simply reducing hp/armor on marines and structures. Even if it did work 100% of the time, that would not really change my decision making when it comes to placing whips.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 877 Advanced user
    Ots wrote: »
    Food for thought, players were used to the tunnels being able to survive longer, thus they didn't need to react as fast or cover them. Assuming that people learn, they should start to cover them more making them more interactive as a team.

    Haven't thought of that. This is true. I think as a week go by, this won't be an issue. Also, the health could be tweaked further. I still maintain, this means you need to escort your lone gorges to tunnels, so it becomes a strategic decision: push marines and hope gorge doesn't get detected OR escort gorge and secure tunnel giving marines some ground.
    Author of a ePaper manual for NS2, now also a steam guide
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  • ATFATF Join Date: 2014-05-09 Member: 195944Members Posts: 261
    ZEROibis wrote: »
    I like the second ip but we will never actually get it. The speed difference between SSD users is too great. By the time the HDD users load the game has already started so you still always only get 1 ip.

    This. Don't simply rely on speculation to implement this. Consult the people who run the extraips extension. We know how the settings need to be done for them to work out. You can then add a calculation based on the servers slot count & current players.
    42 slot server ran just fine with 2nd ip at 8 current players and 3rd ip at 34 current players. It has a 60 second game start delay to allow players to load the map.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 728 Advanced user
    edited August 2014
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @MoFo1‌
    No, you don't have to wait... in fact you can get both sides of a tunnel up in the same amount of time you've always been able to. (within a minute)
    I tested twice yesterday, you can drop the 2nd tunnel EXACTLY at the 1 minute mark with just the starting RT.

    The only difference in timing is that if the comm hasn't begun expanding his RTs right away you might have to wait a few moments before putting up that hydra.
    Relying on teamwork to secure your very early game fortified map control is a good requirement to have..

    20 - 8 - 5 - 5 = 2
    15 - 8 - 4 - 4 = -1

    I don't see how you can get a tunnel up in the same amount of time when you don't even start with enough res... but I guess it doesn't really matter.

    All I know is that when I used to go Gorge at the start I could drop the tunnel, then turn and immediately drop one hydra. It's not much, but that one hydra spitting at them was almost always enough of a distraction to at least escape alive, if not buy enough time for skulks to get there to save the tunnel... I dunno though, maybe I just suck and need all the help I can get.

    The Pres is a non issue when you consider the worst part of 268 though... The cost of Marine tech.

    I still think that the Marine tech tree is way too cheap now, in almost every game I've played since 268 I see Jetpacks before Aliens can even get the 3rd biomass. (In fact several times it's before we even get 2nd biomass!) It just feels broken as hell to have the endgame tech that early. I mean hell why don't we just go for broke and make it so Aliens can get Onos at 2 minutes also! (Imagine how much Marines would rage)

    I know my meager opinion as a pubber pretty much means nothing, but I just hate how a game I love so much is quickly becoming no fun to play... Had to rant somewhere for whatever it's worth.

  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    @MoFo1‌
    True, you cannot drop 2 tunnels in base immediately..... but why would you ever do this, besides trolling your team??

    The average timing of a gorge dropping the 2nd tunnel anywhere useful was and is 1 minute, (try it, you can still time this yourself) give or take a few seconds, and that's why i say the timing remains preserved.
    You are correct though that there is less PvE fortification that early in the round, though.. which i think is just fine as such a powerful, low risk / high reward mechanic should require some actual teamwork and PvP to secure. Losing an early GT doesn't mean an obvious alien loss, either... i think that players have just gotten used to the already "mobile team" having extra and unnecessary help from very early super fortified map control for the past few months. Aliens are still very much capable of covering ground without tunnels and even relaying another tunnel if one is lost.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited August 2014
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    I know my meager opinion as a pubber pretty much means nothing.

    Don't discount yourself that easily. I too am a pubber and have made my voice heard when I feel necessary. I just form an argument and argue it win or lose. Sometimes on old fade shadowstep I argued, but just had to agree to disagree and accept I am in the minority opinion.

    When I first learned of gorge tunnels new changes I had some arguments, but in the end my argument was not great. I simply did not see a need to change it. I lost and somewhat agree with the new change now.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    IronHorse
  • SlorrinSlorrin Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183517Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 20 Fully active user
    I guess this update was to placate the clamouring masses of people begging for the awful changes of compmod to be forced on pub servers OH WAIT THERE ARE NO SUCH PEOPLE.

    What a totally pointless and self-serving update for the comp players. I cant' wait to see the player numbers decrease as a result.

    It seems like the developers are working hard to kill the user base. Kudos.
    ball2hi
  • SlorrinSlorrin Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183517Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 20 Fully active user
    Honestly I can't comprehend this. The game was balanced as is. Aliens and Marines both had a good shot on all the maps. I've won and lost as both on every map in nearly equal measure. Why radically change everything and force everyone to relearn the subtleties of the game just because the comp players already play that way? Who are you facilitating with this? You and your friends or the entire player base.

    Seriously flawed motivations behind this totally pointless change. I think this is one dumb change too many for me.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer Posts: 2,557 mod
    You do realize that the game was not balanced before? If its better now is hard to say, but it was clearly not balanced before (hint, aliens where winning).

    Now that this is out of the way, what exactly is your issue?
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  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    edited August 2014
    Asraniel wrote: »
    You do realize that the game was not balanced before? If its better now is hard to say, but it was clearly not balanced before (hint, aliens where winning).

    Now that this is out of the way, what exactly is your issue?

    Yes, aliens were winning more because of rushes in a sense. 1 gorge rush can end the game but not even GL JP rushes can end the game straight away and if it fails, marines are more likely to GG. This game is like SC2 Zerg being able to cheese a Terran opponent anytime in a game without too much risk and straight up win instantly without the Terran being able to do much other than play standard and slowly chip away or commit their entire odds into a rush, fail and lose or succeed and win.

    Simply put, rushes are a standard for aliens without much risk involved, they're not for marines. If marines fail a rush, that probably means its gg for them. If aliens fail a rush, they can still keep going.

    We all know how incompetent public marine commanders are when it comes to awareness and preparation for alien rushes so I wouldn't take public game data as a legitimate argument for the w/l ratios favoring aliens. What would be more interesting although not realistically possible is identifying how many games are won because of rushes either early-game or late.
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  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 877 Advanced user
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    Asraniel wrote: »
    You do realize that the game was not balanced before? If its better now is hard to say, but it was clearly not balanced before (hint, aliens where winning).

    Now that this is out of the way, what exactly is your issue?

    Yes, aliens were winning more because of rushes in a sense. 1 gorge rush can end the game but not even GL JP rushes can end the game straight away and if it fails, marines are more likely to GG. This game is like SC2 Zerg being able to cheese a Terran opponent anytime in a game without too much risk and straight up win instantly without the Terran being able to do much other than play standard and slowly chip away or commit their entire odds into a rush, fail and lose or succeed and win.

    Simply put, rushes are a standard for aliens without much risk involved, they're not for marines. If marines fail a rush, that probably means its gg for them. If aliens fail a rush, they can still keep going.

    We all know how incompetent public marine commanders are when it comes to awareness and preparation for alien rushes so I wouldn't take public game data as a legitimate argument for the w/l ratios favoring aliens. What would be more interesting although not realistically possible is identifying how many games are won because of rushes either early-game or late.

    @RaZDaZ‌ I agree pub marines are not very competent, but the same can be said of the aliens. So I see that as a 50/50. I only pub and I comm alot, the number of times we go for a rush that didn't work (both as marine and alien) is staggering (only half the team listen, or they give away the location by taking so so so long to go through the tunnel, that the other comm realized something was up). Marines W2/A2 Jp/Gl rush fail due to half the team deciding they HAD to kill that harvester along the way to the surprise rush... The list goes on.

    I think the new patch, if anything will give more of a back and forth on games that are fairly evenly balanced. The stomps that favor one team due to skill stack will continue. The reason for the more mid game is because Aliens can get higher life forms back, and Marines can get the tech they need more quickly IF they hold res. With the cheaper upgrade building, I see Aliens need to harass res more.

    I think the only thing I don't like about the new patch is the possibility of a fast AA, with GL being so good in a large pub.
    Author of a ePaper manual for NS2, now also a steam guide
    Co-wrote the Marine EXO Suit Protocol
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 763 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @MoFo1‌
    True, you cannot drop 2 tunnels in base immediately..... but why would you ever do this, besides trolling your team??

    The average timing of a gorge dropping the 2nd tunnel anywhere useful was and is 1 minute, (try it, you can still time this yourself) give or take a few seconds, and that's why i say the timing remains preserved.
    You are correct though that there is less PvE fortification that early in the round, though.. which i think is just fine as such a powerful, low risk / high reward mechanic should require some actual teamwork and PvP to secure. Losing an early GT doesn't mean an obvious alien loss, either... i think that players have just gotten used to the already "mobile team" having extra and unnecessary help from very early super fortified map control for the past few months. Aliens are still very much capable of covering ground without tunnels and even relaying another tunnel if one is lost.
    It really depends on the map as to what the "average time" is. On Summit I've seen gorges sitting in cross waiting for that 1 pres to get up so they can drop. Those seconds mean a lot in the controlability of the room, especially factoring in the time it takes for infestation to spread so the khamm can start moving in structures. I expect we'll get used to it but it's really uncool to be taunted with tech like that.

    The biggest thing I've seen recently is the free IP with 9+ marines. That opens up a whole new world of tech explosions. with 8v8, even 6v6 a 2nd IP is commonly part of the tree, but only in rare cases are 3 IPs dropped. So I'm skeptical about giving marines a free 20tres simply because there are 8 field marines. Maybe with 10 field marines 2 IPs for free would be alright.

    As marine comm with 9 people on my team I can immediately drop both an Armory and an Arms Lab at start, RTs, then start mines right off the bat. From there I just tech up my arms lab and boom, 2 tech paths simultaneously researching where previously only 1 was possible.

    I don't know the numbers for balance this build, but if they are leaning marine side, I'd venture a guess that the 2nd IP is a big reason.
    d4rkAlf
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    edited August 2014
    The gorge tunnel change really affects pubs on veil... the map being huge n all. I still think the inside of the gorge tunnel be shorter with the tunnel nerf, maybe automatically have some webs inside.

    Edit - I also believe alien win rates will drop dramatically. Unless people know how to use metabolize (can you get that before being able to get leap?), and fade well. I'll play more, but I've only seen aliens stomped when the teams are somewhat even. I'm a pubber so it may not apply. I could be entirely wrong, though. About to play a couple rounds now.

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  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Posts: 2,130 mod
    Metabolize will basically mean pubstomping fades don't have to worry about energy. Celery all the wei.
    Healthy diet for healthy fades. :D
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  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 616 Fully active user
    Fixed spawns sucks, big time. It always results in boring games. Please for the love of glob revoke this. x


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  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members Posts: 146 Fully active user
    Slorrin wrote: »
    What a totally pointless and self-serving update for the comp players.
    Not all of it was pointless. Some of the updated changes are agreeable entirely. Such as initial cost on boneshield energy. Spamming boneshield insured reduced damage by a large amount with minimal energy used, and regen. However, it does seem very self-serving but they won't admit to that.

    76561198098477111.png
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AU Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Posts: 514 mod
    ball2hi wrote: »
    Slorrin wrote: »
    What a totally pointless and self-serving update for the comp players.
    However, it does seem very self-serving but they won't admit to that.

    ... sigh
    d4rkAlfelodea
  • ATFATF Join Date: 2014-05-09 Member: 195944Members Posts: 261
    Calego wrote: »
    The biggest thing I've seen recently is the free IP with 9+ marines. That opens up a whole new world of tech explosions. with 8v8, even 6v6 a 2nd IP is commonly part of the tree, but only in rare cases are 3 IPs dropped. So I'm skeptical about giving marines a free 20tres simply because there are 8 field marines. Maybe with 10 field marines 2 IPs for free would be alright.

    As marine comm with 9 people on my team I can immediately drop both an Armory and an Arms Lab at start, RTs, then start mines right off the bat. From there I just tech up my arms lab and boom, 2 tech paths simultaneously researching where previously only 1 was possible.

    I don't know the numbers for balance this build, but if they are leaning marine side, I'd venture a guess that the 2nd IP is a big reason.

    Wooza's has been running the shine extraips extension for half a year. Before we introduced it, I was very skeptical about the gameplay changes it brings. I did not like the idea.

    At first it gave only a 2nd IP. Since it's 42 players, it's a nobrainer, doesn't really matter at which player count you start giving the 2nd IP.

    The result was so good that we decided to keep it. After learning the effects of the 2nd IP for a while we calculated that for 42 players, you actually should have 3 starting IPs.

    We made that happen, and thankfully, @GhoulofGSG9 improved it a bit later. The effects were even more positive than with the 2nd IP. Marines now stood the normal chance (same as 6vs6) to survive a full out skulk rush, for example.

    You're right that it does open up the possibility to recycle an IP for immediate res, but the penalty is considerable. If the slightest thing happens, you'll have a spawn queue problem.
    So far it has not resulted in a shift in balance at all.

    There's plenty of things to do even without recyling an IP, like this for example:
    apheriox.com/showthread.php/28-Shotgun-with-Catalyst-Pack-Rush

  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    edited August 2014
    I would gladly accept close spawns back if marines weren't able to tell where aliens spawned within seconds because medpacks can collide with alien hives and harvesters for some strange reason which doesn't seem like a hard thing to change if you ask me but aaaanyway

    For now I think it's best.

    And yeah the fact that the spawn configurations haven't been fixed for docking baffles me, it should be fixed to- marines cafe/term, aliens lock/gen/deps & no close spawns (term-deps, cafe-lock).
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  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    edited August 2014
    Please return Gorge tunnels to their previous state. After a few days of trying it out, this change doesn't work well on the 22-24 slot servers. Even after mysting a tunnel to full maturity, they still get destroyed too fast when targeted by a group.

    Two marines can kill a fresh tunnel drop with 1.5 out of 4 of their magazines. That's under 8-9 seconds to kill a tunnel that isn't matured by two people. Maybe even faster if Marines quick switch to pistol after 1 full magazine? By the time anyone even tries to respond to defend it, it's gone unless it has a crag. Especially when you account for the extra walking you have to do between tunnels once you're in it. Now imagine on a 24 slot server where players travel is large groups. Or imagine if a skulk could solo a phasegate in under 12 seconds?

    These changes don't make any sense besides for 6v6.
    RapGod
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    @ns2isgood‌ time for gorges to get smart and stop dropping retarded tunnels with no clogs or hydras.

    Clogs aren't going to do much, if anything at all. And at start Gorge cannot afford Hydras. Gorges defenses are also very weak, everyone just runs by them to get out of range or stands at a distance and shoots them without being attacked. And against GL or Flame they are laughable as a defense. Two puffs from a flamethrower will wipe an entire Gorge defense, haha.
    RapGod
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    sebb wrote: »
    Whats the difference, they would collide with each other within the first 10 seconds anyways, instantly letting you know which spawn it is, medpack or no medpack.
    Maps where marine spawn is fixed provide opportunities for aliens to misdirect the marines.
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    @ns2isgood‌ time for gorges to get smart and stop dropping retarded tunnels with no clogs or hydras.

    Clogs aren't going to do much, if anything at all. And at start Gorge cannot afford Hydras. Gorges defenses are also very weak, everyone just runs by them to get out of range or stands at a distance and shoots them without being attacked. And against GL or Flame they are laughable as a defense. Two puffs from a flamethrower will wipe an entire Gorge defense, haha.

    Clogs - Clogs are underrated. Shitty clog walls wont do much (the common form in pubs), but forests of LOS-blocking clog pillars with well-placed hydras can do some nasty shit to marines.

    Gorges cant afford hydras at the start? Well drop hydras instead of your tunnel- if you can't stay alive long enough to build up 5 more pres you didnt deserve a tunnel there in the first place. Also if you're playing on 24 man servers I'll bet there's a fair chance you have more than one gorge ;)

    I'm going to ignore your remarks about GL/FL against gorge stuff since that's really obviously not what we're talking about.

    *sigh* people dont seem to remember the old days where gorges didn't get free tunnels, so they had to actually learn to fortify a position rather than piss away 5 res like it's nothing, just because they can
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    sebb wrote: »
    Are you seriously going to keep hammering out the 6v6 crap?

    If the tunnel dies so easily when you just drop it, DON'T DROP IT WHEN THERE ARE MARINES THERE. Co-ordinate with your team where you want the tunnel, and then make sure there are team mates BACKING YOU UP before dropping. Not that hard.
    Or imagine if a skulk could solo a phasegate in under 12 seconds?
    huh?

    That is the first time I've mentioned anything about "6v6 crap", so how I'm "hammering" it, I don't understand.
    sebb wrote: »
    Whats the difference, they would collide with each other within the first 10 seconds anyways, instantly letting you know which spawn it is, medpack or no medpack.
    Maps where marine spawn is fixed provide opportunities for aliens to misdirect the marines.
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    @ns2isgood‌ time for gorges to get smart and stop dropping retarded tunnels with no clogs or hydras.

    Clogs aren't going to do much, if anything at all. And at start Gorge cannot afford Hydras. Gorges defenses are also very weak, everyone just runs by them to get out of range or stands at a distance and shoots them without being attacked. And against GL or Flame they are laughable as a defense. Two puffs from a flamethrower will wipe an entire Gorge defense, haha.

    Clogs - Clogs are underrated. Shitty clog walls wont do much (the common form in pubs), but forests of LOS-blocking clog pillars with well-placed hydras can do some nasty shit to marines.

    Gorges cant afford hydras at the start? Well drop hydras instead of your tunnel- if you can't stay alive long enough to build up 5 more pres you didnt deserve a tunnel there in the first place. Also if you're playing on 24 man servers I'll bet there's a fair chance you have more than one gorge ;)

    I'm going to ignore your remarks about GL/FL against gorge stuff since that's really obviously not what we're talking about.

    *sigh* people dont seem to remember the old days where gorges didn't get free tunnels, so they had to actually learn to fortify a position rather than piss away 5 res like it's nothing, just because they can

    These are all just moot points. It doesn't matter the scenarios you want to make up, the final result is a marine shooting a tunnel and them going down too fast.

    And for "shitty clog walls" :D - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134301/clog-pole-glog-wall
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