this thread has made 55 pages, from its humble 17 this time yesterday! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yesterday? ... How much crack do you snort in a given day?
this thread was at 54 yesterday <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
this thread has made 55 pages, from its humble 17 this time yesterday! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YEAAAAAAAAAAAH TOTALLY, GOOD GAME!
Without fishing through 50+ pages of posts, could someone A) post a comprehensive changelist for balance changes, or preferably B) Post a changelog of balance changelogs on the FAQ on the first post.
<!--QuoteBegin-..tim..+Apr 16 2004, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (..tim.. @ Apr 16 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Without fishing through 50+ pages of posts, could someone A) post a comprehensive changelist for balance changes, or preferably B) Post a changelog of balance changelogs on the FAQ on the first post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> - Removed Tram maintenance Res - Removed Databank access Res - Removed doors on the MS lift vent - Removed outside doors on the MS vent - Changed MS door vent so it doesn't have a gap and aliens can't build chambers on it - Moved MS weldable outside (like in 1.04) - Added new res on the bottom of the Main Aft lift - The revolving door spins a bit faster
We haven't had time to make BIG changes to the map, but we'll be able to do something when we start getting more feedback.
My tip, why not removing the spinning door, and also try to come up with some other solution for the elevator? (but dont touch the area outside, with the red walls and the crates, one of the best looking areas in ns imo).
That revolving door is part of what makes Bast the map it is. Too many changes to the map will be disappointing, in my opinion.
I used to love the atmosphere of maps in 1.04, but they have changed too much. A lot of the elements that were unique have been taken out. Hera has been butchered the most, all in the name of gameplay needlessly. I'm not saying fixes aren't good sometimes, but big changes can ruin the feel of a great map.
For example, the people who complain about the elevators on Nothing and want them removed. They are part of what makes that map ns_nothing.
I don't enjoy sterile playing atmospheres like Veil as much. They don't feel right. They seem way to contrived, boring, and linear. I'm not saying that veil isn't a good map in some ways, and I have total respect for anyone’s hard work mapping. I know from experience it isn't easy.
I see no game play reasons to get rid of things like elevators and doors, only entity saving reasons when necessary. These things are part of the atmosphere that makes the game fun. They are obstacles you have to be aware of as a player and plan accordingly. You don't always know what is behind that door or waiting at the top of that elevator, these elements keep things interesting.
If people are having problems with these elements they should be adjusting their playing style not complaining about the map design.
Anyway, I am looking forward to playing this map again, thanks guys.
Its the only revolving door in NS it just wouldn't be the same without it.
I remember a nail biting episode where a was a marine with several other guys and we were showering the Main Aft with bullets trying to fend off some fades while the door slowly closed. It was quite a rush!
In reply to the marine spawn and the "comm chair closet" (<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) discussion
Well how keeping the location of the CC (still have it facing forward in that "cockpit"), and just make dual-ramps to get up. You know, you climb the first ramp, turn 90 degrees and walk along a non-sloping surface and then turn another 90 degrees (so you?ve made a 180... just like you were taking the old elevator) and walk the final steps up into the cockpit.
pic illustration (attached file)
**edit** the lower arrow going right is the lower ramp and the upper arrow going left is the upper ramp... the ramps are pretty short, making them too steep, but I guess you could slim something off the flat connecting ramp to the far right...
Anyway it?s just an illustration... not a blueprint <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
**another edit** oh and that dotted arrow just below the CC... that?s supposed to be someone walking UNDER the CC floor (just like you did with the elevator version) (and could enter the CC by pressing "use" while looking up through the floor, LOL <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
It's around page 43, so I understand you didn't know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Dogbite+Apr 16 2004, 07:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dogbite @ Apr 16 2004, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I used to love the atmosphere of maps in 1.04, but they have changed too much. A lot of the elements that were unique have been taken out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is something I've been thinking and talking to other players about a lot recently. Basically it seems like you have to strike a balance between "Atmosphere" (in quotes as it is very very difficult to nail down exactly what is entailed by the phrase) and gameplay. The two obviously can co-exist but when they are in conflict a judgement call has to be made. At the end of the day a lot of it is going to come down to personal preference, and then if you throw the idea of certain elements of a map being unique to the point that they are defining of the map itself, you really start running into problems.
Atmosphere can only take you so far. If you push too hard to create (or in this case, preserve) the tone or mood of the map you run the risk that you are doing so at the cost of playabilty. Point of reference is the elevators on ns_nothing. They move incredibly slow and in order for the marines to reach 2 of the hives they will HAVE to deal with them at some point. Now slowly moving down a creaking elevator, with another player by your side, both of you scanning the area for aliens above you, and peering out when Foreboading first becomes visible is something that draws you into the game and makes you come back and play it again and again. But in your 150th round on ns_nothing, when you are screaming at Quad Lift to "hurry the @#$* up", cause MS is getting rushed by skulks, and you lose base because too many of the marines had to wait for elevators so they could get back, you are gonna start voting for Tanith or Veil when Nothing comes up in the rotation due to frustration. (An obvious exaggeration, but the idea still holds.)
My basic point: Atmosphere draws players in and makes them want to play again. Solid gameplay keeps them playing even after they become numb to the atmosphere the map provides. Bast was dripping with Atmosphere, way more than any other map. But in terms of playabilty it has probably always been one of the weakest. At this point I think significant changes will HAVE to take place, otherwise people really won't want to play it, except as a novelty.
All I can say to that is what you see as an obstacle, I see as a challenge.
Gameplay doesn't necessarily mean an easy trek throughout the map. It's one thing to fix ladders that aren't climbable, textures that are misaligned, and bottlenecks that force boring unbalanced strategies but we need to be careful about changing areas of the map whose features simply require a little inovation in strategy.
I think slow moving elevators and revolving doors promote group strategies and the use of phase tech. But people who like to rambo obviously aren't interested in that and make issues of things that aren't broke in the first place.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 15 2004, 08:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 15 2004, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> practiacally all of subversive trooper's comments have been rediculous. Hes the guy who "stumbled" apon NS while attemting to download the acclaimed "vampire slayer" HL mod, and then immediatly procceded to post a long critical commentary on these forums about the wierdness of vampireslayer having giant ants, bats, and marines in gorrilla suits who attack you in your "citidels populated by turrets"
There is a wildly high chance that subversive trooper is simply a troll. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Subversive is the coolest person on this boards besides the infamous SNipermarine! And he has now joined the ranks of the great humoruous NS players
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Apr 17 2004, 01:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Apr 17 2004, 01:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All I can say to that is what you see as an obstacle, I see as a challenge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, and I think in lots of other games I would totally agree with you. NS presents an additional layer though, because the default classes of the two teams are so radically different. Things like slow moving elevators cut marine movement down to a crawl at the begining of the game, but over 1/2 the time it won't even affect the skulks. You have an imbalance there, and while in and of itself that is not a game breaker you have to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't get out of hand, or those areas quickly become unintentional focal points of your map.
<!--QuoteBegin-BlackPlague+Apr 17 2004, 09:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlackPlague @ Apr 17 2004, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hey i was looking at the comm chair, good job! i found a texture mis-allignment..... check it in the red selection.... maybe u can fix that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The alignment looks fine to me. Let's not be pedantic!
<!--QuoteBegin-JazzX+Apr 18 2004, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JazzX @ Apr 18 2004, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Apr 17 2004, 01:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Apr 17 2004, 01:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All I can say to that is what you see as an obstacle, I see as a challenge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, and I think in lots of other games I would totally agree with you. NS presents an additional layer though, because the default classes of the two teams are so radically different. Things like slow moving elevators cut marine movement down to a crawl at the begining of the game, but over 1/2 the time it won't even affect the skulks. You have an imbalance there, and while in and of itself that is not a game breaker you have to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't get out of hand, or those areas quickly become unintentional focal points of your map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's my point though. The aliens and marines are different so they should approach areas in different ways. If marines group up like they are supposed to, a slow elevator is suddenly not a problem.
Aliens have the same problem whenever they traverse a long hallway. The advantages of projectile vs. melee require them to group up to give the marines more targets.
In other words, the solution is not to speed up elevators and shorten long hallways. No, the solution is to use your head and your teammates to win. That's why I like NS so much; teamwork and innovative strategy is just as important if not more than 1337 skills.
Yes, the elevators can be an inbalance to the marine team if approached the wrong way but we must look at the big picture. I don't think anyone here would suggest taking out all the crawlspaces in the map just because the marines can't use most of them until they get jet packs. Of course not! We should analyze the gameplay with more consciousness of marine and alien abilities as well as actual results so that we do not "dumb down" a very fun and challenging game for the sake of novice players.
I agree 100% with relsan. I recall the other day reading on the HLRally board or something that someone was complaining that a map should be changed because they couldn't make a hairpin corner without spinning out and slamming the wall. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If someone is miles from the base while the base is being munched on... should that be the mappers fault? Absolutely not. Might seem easy to say "make the elevators faster" but that's just frustration talking. Next thing, you have aliens complaining "marines can rush the hive too easy." (Think about it... Nothing has LOTS of nice straight hallways at the bottoms of those elevators.) The simple looking change might still have consequences. But that's just my opinion.
Tanith lost a lot of character when the doors disappeared. The ambush possibilities hurt the worst IMO. But, that fundamentally comes down to this games engine showing its age. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh well, when you think about it... any NS map still has 10x the atmosphere of most CS maps... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Subversive Trooper+Apr 14 2004, 02:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Subversive Trooper @ Apr 14 2004, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please add a secret Ready Room room, so KungFuMapper doesn't have to start a Bast 2 remake team... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> maybe you could even add a scorpion that hovers with out flapping... do we finally have a new smart_bomb?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Just a quick offer, but I'll be happy to try & arrange a PT for it when you're ready on one of the PZ servers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You're going to find a lot of those texture misalignments... the exact reason is... they were on the original, too. And I don't think that is a big misalignment... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
this thread has made 55 pages, from its humble 17 this time yesterday!
this thread has made 55 pages, from its humble 17 this time yesterday! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yesterday? ... How much crack do you snort in a given day?
Oh yeah, no one gave you permission to speak.
Are you thinking of the fenris remake?
this thread has made 55 pages, from its humble 17 this time yesterday! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YEAAAAAAAAAAAH TOTALLY, GOOD GAME!
ps: no
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Removed Tram maintenance Res
- Removed Databank access Res
- Removed doors on the MS lift vent
- Removed outside doors on the MS vent
- Changed MS door vent so it doesn't have a gap and aliens can't build chambers on it
- Moved MS weldable outside (like in 1.04)
- Added new res on the bottom of the Main Aft lift
- The revolving door spins a bit faster
We haven't had time to make BIG changes to the map, but we'll be able to do something when we start getting more feedback.
I used to love the atmosphere of maps in 1.04, but they have changed too much. A lot of the elements that were unique have been taken out. Hera has been butchered the most, all in the name of gameplay needlessly. I'm not saying fixes aren't good sometimes, but big changes can ruin the feel of a great map.
For example, the people who complain about the elevators on Nothing and want them removed. They are part of what makes that map ns_nothing.
I don't enjoy sterile playing atmospheres like Veil as much. They don't feel right. They seem way to contrived, boring, and linear. I'm not saying that veil isn't a good map in some ways, and I have total respect for anyone’s hard work mapping. I know from experience it isn't easy.
I see no game play reasons to get rid of things like elevators and doors, only entity saving reasons when necessary. These things are part of the atmosphere that makes the game fun. They are obstacles you have to be aware of as a player and plan accordingly. You don't always know what is behind that door or waiting at the top of that elevator, these elements keep things interesting.
If people are having problems with these elements they should be adjusting their playing style not complaining about the map design.
Anyway, I am looking forward to playing this map again, thanks guys.
I remember a nail biting episode where a was a marine with several other guys and we were showering the Main Aft with bullets trying to fend off some fades while the door slowly closed. It was quite a rush!
Well how keeping the location of the CC (still have it facing forward in that "cockpit"), and just make dual-ramps to get up. You know, you climb the first ramp, turn 90 degrees and walk along a non-sloping surface and then turn another 90 degrees (so you?ve made a 180... just like you were taking the old elevator) and walk the final steps up into the cockpit.
pic illustration (attached file)
**edit** the lower arrow going right is the lower ramp and the upper arrow going left is the upper ramp... the ramps are pretty short, making them too steep, but I guess you could slim something off the flat connecting ramp to the far right...
Anyway it?s just an illustration... not a blueprint <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
**another edit** oh and that dotted arrow just below the CC... that?s supposed to be someone walking UNDER the CC floor (just like you did with the elevator version) (and could enter the CC by pressing "use" while looking up through the floor, LOL <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads//post-4-1079990140.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
It's around page 43, so I understand you didn't know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is something I've been thinking and talking to other players about a lot recently. Basically it seems like you have to strike a balance between "Atmosphere" (in quotes as it is very very difficult to nail down exactly what is entailed by the phrase) and gameplay. The two obviously can co-exist but when they are in conflict a judgement call has to be made. At the end of the day a lot of it is going to come down to personal preference, and then if you throw the idea of certain elements of a map being unique to the point that they are defining of the map itself, you really start running into problems.
Atmosphere can only take you so far. If you push too hard to create (or in this case, preserve) the tone or mood of the map you run the risk that you are doing so at the cost of playabilty. Point of reference is the elevators on ns_nothing. They move incredibly slow and in order for the marines to reach 2 of the hives they will HAVE to deal with them at some point. Now slowly moving down a creaking elevator, with another player by your side, both of you scanning the area for aliens above you, and peering out when Foreboading first becomes visible is something that draws you into the game and makes you come back and play it again and again. But in your 150th round on ns_nothing, when you are screaming at Quad Lift to "hurry the @#$* up", cause MS is getting rushed by skulks, and you lose base because too many of the marines had to wait for elevators so they could get back, you are gonna start voting for Tanith or Veil when Nothing comes up in the rotation due to frustration. (An obvious exaggeration, but the idea still holds.)
My basic point: Atmosphere draws players in and makes them want to play again. Solid gameplay keeps them playing even after they become numb to the atmosphere the map provides. Bast was dripping with Atmosphere, way more than any other map. But in terms of playabilty it has probably always been one of the weakest. At this point I think significant changes will HAVE to take place, otherwise people really won't want to play it, except as a novelty.
Gameplay doesn't necessarily mean an easy trek throughout the map. It's one thing to fix ladders that aren't climbable, textures that are misaligned, and bottlenecks that force boring unbalanced strategies but we need to be careful about changing areas of the map whose features simply require a little inovation in strategy.
I think slow moving elevators and revolving doors promote group strategies and the use of phase tech. But people who like to rambo obviously aren't interested in that and make issues of things that aren't broke in the first place.
There is a wildly high chance that subversive trooper is simply a troll. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Subversive is the coolest person on this boards besides the infamous SNipermarine! And he has now joined the ranks of the great humoruous NS players
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, and I think in lots of other games I would totally agree with you. NS presents an additional layer though, because the default classes of the two teams are so radically different. Things like slow moving elevators cut marine movement down to a crawl at the begining of the game, but over 1/2 the time it won't even affect the skulks. You have an imbalance there, and while in and of itself that is not a game breaker you have to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't get out of hand, or those areas quickly become unintentional focal points of your map.
The alignment looks fine to me. Let's not be pedantic!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, and I think in lots of other games I would totally agree with you. NS presents an additional layer though, because the default classes of the two teams are so radically different. Things like slow moving elevators cut marine movement down to a crawl at the begining of the game, but over 1/2 the time it won't even affect the skulks. You have an imbalance there, and while in and of itself that is not a game breaker you have to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't get out of hand, or those areas quickly become unintentional focal points of your map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's my point though. The aliens and marines are different so they should approach areas in different ways. If marines group up like they are supposed to, a slow elevator is suddenly not a problem.
Aliens have the same problem whenever they traverse a long hallway. The advantages of projectile vs. melee require them to group up to give the marines more targets.
In other words, the solution is not to speed up elevators and shorten long hallways. No, the solution is to use your head and your teammates to win. That's why I like NS so much; teamwork and innovative strategy is just as important if not more than 1337 skills.
Yes, the elevators can be an inbalance to the marine team if approached the wrong way but we must look at the big picture. I don't think anyone here would suggest taking out all the crawlspaces in the map just because the marines can't use most of them until they get jet packs. Of course not! We should analyze the gameplay with more consciousness of marine and alien abilities as well as actual results so that we do not "dumb down" a very fun and challenging game for the sake of novice players.
note to dev team, back some good damn back ups
If someone is miles from the base while the base is being munched on... should that be the mappers fault? Absolutely not. Might seem easy to say "make the elevators faster" but that's just frustration talking. Next thing, you have aliens complaining "marines can rush the hive too easy." (Think about it... Nothing has LOTS of nice straight hallways at the bottoms of those elevators.) The simple looking change might still have consequences. But that's just my opinion.
Tanith lost a lot of character when the doors disappeared. The ambush possibilities hurt the worst IMO. But, that fundamentally comes down to this games engine showing its age. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh well, when you think about it... any NS map still has 10x the atmosphere of most CS maps... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
maybe you could even add a scorpion that hovers with out flapping... do we finally have a new smart_bomb?
*sorry 4 offtopic...*
*sorry 4 scorpion-thing*
Stupid Insane's site making me follow links...