<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Apr 7 2004, 06:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Apr 7 2004, 06:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's more a commander view issue... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Commander shouldnt be able to see inside that vent anyway. Marines being in that vent can only be used for lame purposes.
Im pretty sure the comm cant see every vent in every map to begin with...
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Apr 6 2004, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Apr 6 2004, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We haven't had too much time to change the layout yet. So, at the moment is the same bast, with little changes...
We would still love to hear some changes to the layout if you want to suggest some <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As i said :
The biggest problem making ns_bast not be playable, its the marine-start. 1rst : The revolving door Making alien escape too difficult. Yes, it allows a near ressource noddle, and a strat?gic-point. So what the best solution ? I thinked about a second-corridor going to the other-side of the room where there's is a BIG hole.
2nd : The big elevator Making onos escape too difficult. It make the server laggy, and chambers on it is a bad effect. The best solution is a non-brealeable glass, showing a slope (direction : revolving-door to engine-way corridor, neat N corridor | This will allow onos espace with BH )
3rd : The corridor on the engine-side This corridor allows a mass lerk-gazing. Less serious as in ns_eclipse, but more serious for skulk-rush. The best solution is to let him as it is (about the weldable solution used is 2.0 version), but to make the way out a little far-away from actual CC
4th : The corridors on athomespherique-side Actual system is very good : only marine can go out using this corridor. But if the elevator is replaced by a slope, theses corridors won't be accessible. One solution could be to make ladders, giving access only if a (weldable ?) wall is breaken...
5th : The CC place In most marine-places, the CC is placed in order for the comm to get out and build/defend his own base. Proposed solution : none. I think the possibilities are infinite, just think about it
Another post says that engine only gets out to maint aft. This is an other problem to think about.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to quote, but i think now it's time to say changes about the layout <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think the main problem is with engine. At the moment, if you are getting attacked of sieged, the onos has little room for manouver, all they can hope to do is slowly dent the defences put up in the corridor. I think engine needs a second entrance on the opposite side of the marine start, that maybe comes out at aft in the unused entrance.
That wouldn't fix the problem with engine hive though, you'd still be able to trap every major lifeform in there and have almost total res domination apart from the few skulks who go through the vents.
Is my current suggestion for engine, this does a number of things, stops you from being able to siege engine room with a turret factory in marine spawn and means if marines are in main aft you're not trapped.
1st A second exit of the MS (normal exit) is something we have planned already (at least me)
2nd Elevators don't lag servers.
5th You haven't been following the progress too much, have you? We already changed the CC placement (this change has been present for several builds, I must add)... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks anyways for the interest, the other ones I didn't reply to is because I didn't fully understand them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> See the proposed changes from MrBen, too.
I've always thought that the nearness of the double res both to MS and a hive has always been a problem with bast, for several reasons. Some comms will ALWAYS try and relocate there. If the aliens start with engine hive they have almost no chance to take it. Whereas if the aliens start with feedwater, you end up playing co_atmospheric for half the game while the rest of the map is ignored. I'm not sure if there is any easy way to fix this short of changing the entire layout of the map. Unless (BLASPHEMY!) you just wanted to make atmos a single res point...
Also, on those engine changes: They look nice. I mean, think of it... TWO EXITS from ONE HIVE?! Impossible! Just make it a little twistier so it's not a straight shot from there over to refinery, and so that you wouldn't be staring straight down the hallway at the hive. Has the added affect of making a second siege point for that hive, too.
The only problem is that this totally messes up the layout. On the other side of the locked airlock, there's supposed to be, one would assume, another room like MS, except open to space. So... maybe you'd need to make that corridor go under or over this supposed room, to keep the nice mental layout for the non-mapped parts of bast.
interesting proposal Bob. whould we have a double res somewhere else? and if so where? I can't say I like the idea of killing bast as a double node map, I like double nodes, they focus a battle.
Double nodes are hard to do correctly though. They have to be about equally accessible from all player starts and not too hard OR too easy for either team to defend effectively. Reactor on Tanith is a good example of a double node done well. I've seen either team lock it down many times, only to have it change hands again as the game progresses. It's got three normal and two vent exits, making it nearly impossible to TOTALLY lock it down. And it's got interesting multiple levels to keep everyone on their toes.
Atmos has some of this, but it's smaller and although it does have three ways in, two of them can be covered at the same time. It's got one vent entrance, from N-Corridor. But the vent is useless for sporing and bilebombing from, you just can't get a good angle on most of the room.
Of course, atmos also isn't an important choke point. In fact, it's not on the way from anywhere to anywhere else at all. Drop 50 turrets in there, skulks can waltz right by outside it and never have to worry. So its only importance is as a double res point, or sometimes as a forward position when trying to take feedwater. The problem I see with it not being teritorially important is that marines can reloc there and be basically ignored the whole game. I've seen marine turtles in atmos last for a long time. They never do manage to hold any more nodes for more than a minute or two, but they keep those double nodes forever while the aliens cap the rest of the map and all the hives. And as everyone knows, turtling is just boring. The marines have already lost, but the game will go on for an extra half hour as they keep handing out one or two heavy kits at a time, or HMGs, or GLs...
Compare this to, say, central on caged. It's a massive choke point. You almost can't get from any one important location to another without going through there. A marine reloc to central will almost never last the whole game and the dull turtling problem is never an issue. If the marines aren't moving out and fighting, they'll eventually be killed just by passing random aliens.
Bah, enough useless pontificating. How to fix this? I'm not sure. Like I said it's almost impossible to do without either totally rearranging the map, making it no longer bast, or by changing atmos to a single res point. Neither are very happy solutions...
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Apr 9 2004, 11:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Apr 9 2004, 11:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That wouldn't fix the problem with engine hive though, you'd still be able to trap every major lifeform in there and have almost total res domination apart from the few skulks who go through the vents.
Is my current suggestion for engine, this does a number of things, stops you from being able to siege engine room with a turret factory in marine spawn and means if marines are in main aft you're not trapped. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is a really fine idea, fixed alot of things. I think it's superb.
Looking good so far.! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The_CheatIt's a The Cheat!Join Date: 2003-11-19Member: 23191Members, Constellation
Although your layout change idea(s) may seem good, I think they would throw off the map's balance. With that new layout, the marines have virtually a direct path from MS to Feedwater. Atmospheric would be <b>way</b> too easy for aliens to hold if they start in Engine (or possibly even Refinery.)
Everyone seems to be play testing it but i can't find the link to download it (too many posts <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) or am i just insane with bast thoughts running through my mind
<!--QuoteBegin-ShdwStal+Apr 11 2004, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ShdwStal @ Apr 11 2004, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, the latest build has been sent off to Flayra, so there haven't been many PTs recently. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly, zero playtests.
By removing the rotating door you make DBL accessible from all starting locations which should make for some interesting fights but at the same time you do not need to hold it to gain access anywhere. Feedwater is probably the worst hive to take dbl from so i tried to balance that with the water tunnel access + giving them an RT or two near their spawn, at the same time though one rt is close to MS so it's not giving them it on a stick.
Should aliens not start in feed then maybe we're giving the marines too many nodes on that side of the map but with a vent from engine to feedwater that shouldn't make it too inaccesible and the sane applies from refinery to feed and finally double node to feedwater.
This is just idle MrBen speculation not our plan of action, thoughts on it though.
I don't think access to the ref hive should be there, make the aliens trek a litle bit. However, access to tram tunnel from there could be a useful idea.
Well bear in mind that bast hasn't changed AT ALL since 1.0. Look at the changes on hera or caged since 1.0. They're pretty drastic. But people didn't cry foul because they happened with a few new versions over time. Bast clearly needs some major updating. It's a tricky line they're walking. On the one hand are people screaming that bast is unplayable as it is, and on the other you've got people screaming that if you change the color value of one light_spot, YOU RUINED BAST!
So have fun getting screamed at by everyone, guys. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well Hera and Caged removed some rooms and added new ones but the room locations stayed basicially the same. It seams odd to me to have the rooms shuffled around. I guess I shouldn't be so quick to jump on the changes. I talk to many of the remake team members on #nsmapping and they are all quite capable. I guess I should just wait and see how it turns out before I slap them around.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
From my PTing, I would have to say the feel of bast is the same, except the lighting in some places was a bit off when i played it, but that's not too important. It looked hot, it brought back memories... but here's the best part, the changes they've made make the map even better.
The one thing I hated about bast was how alien-sided it is.
The movement of the rts seriously helps.
and feedwater, engine, and refinery all look beautiful.
I don't understand why some people complain about changing the commander closet thing to make it more easily defendable, and more easily accessed.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2004
The suggested entrance from the engine hive is good gameplay wise<span style='color:gray'> (if it is an entrance not just a new vent <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )</span>, but it would defeat the feeling of bast being part of a much larger facility. Sure it still has the tram system, but the defective rotating door does the same as the blocking tram...
Its a discision between three things.<ol type='1'><li>Improve the gameplay for the bigger aliens near engine(well has to be tested, but I think it's better with the suggested idea)</li><li>Keep it the way it is, with just small improvements not new sections to keep the being part of large facility feeling going.</li><li>Move the defective rotating door in such a way that it keeps its function and preserve the logical layout (so it doesn't lok out of place)...</li></ol>Those are just my thoughts on it since it is also the bigest problem of the map (2nd bigest is the Onos crawling corridor, which you fixed? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Comments
that'd be all, really... the rest is Bast, and Bast is, well, it's greatness already... o_O
Commander shouldnt be able to see inside that vent anyway. Marines being in that vent can only be used for lame purposes.
Im pretty sure the comm cant see every vent in every map to begin with...
We would still love to hear some changes to the layout if you want to suggest some <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As i said :
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The biggest problem making ns_bast not be playable, its the marine-start.
1rst : The revolving door
Making alien escape too difficult.
Yes, it allows a near ressource noddle, and a strat?gic-point. So what the best solution ? I thinked about a second-corridor going to the other-side of the room where there's is a BIG hole.
2nd : The big elevator
Making onos escape too difficult.
It make the server laggy, and chambers on it is a bad effect. The best solution is a non-brealeable glass, showing a slope (direction : revolving-door to engine-way corridor, neat N corridor | This will allow onos espace with BH )
3rd : The corridor on the engine-side
This corridor allows a mass lerk-gazing. Less serious as in ns_eclipse, but more serious for skulk-rush.
The best solution is to let him as it is (about the weldable solution used is 2.0 version), but to make the way out a little far-away from actual CC
4th : The corridors on athomespherique-side
Actual system is very good : only marine can go out using this corridor.
But if the elevator is replaced by a slope, theses corridors won't be accessible. One solution could be to make ladders, giving access only if a (weldable ?) wall is breaken...
5th : The CC place
In most marine-places, the CC is placed in order for the comm to get out and build/defend his own base.
Proposed solution : none. I think the possibilities are infinite, just think about it
Another post says that engine only gets out to maint aft. This is an other problem to think about....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to quote, but i think now it's time to say changes about the layout <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://mrben.thezazi.net/images/omghax.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Is my current suggestion for engine, this does a number of things, stops you from being able to siege engine room with a turret factory in marine spawn and means if marines are in main aft you're not trapped.
1st
A second exit of the MS (normal exit) is something we have planned already (at least me)
2nd
Elevators don't lag servers.
5th
You haven't been following the progress too much, have you? We already changed the CC placement (this change has been present for several builds, I must add)... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks anyways for the interest, the other ones I didn't reply to is because I didn't fully understand them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> See the proposed changes from MrBen, too.
Also, on those engine changes: They look nice. I mean, think of it... TWO EXITS from ONE HIVE?! Impossible! Just make it a little twistier so it's not a straight shot from there over to refinery, and so that you wouldn't be staring straight down the hallway at the hive. Has the added affect of making a second siege point for that hive, too.
The only problem is that this totally messes up the layout. On the other side of the locked airlock, there's supposed to be, one would assume, another room like MS, except open to space. So... maybe you'd need to make that corridor go under or over this supposed room, to keep the nice mental layout for the non-mapped parts of bast.
Atmos has some of this, but it's smaller and although it does have three ways in, two of them can be covered at the same time. It's got one vent entrance, from N-Corridor. But the vent is useless for sporing and bilebombing from, you just can't get a good angle on most of the room.
Of course, atmos also isn't an important choke point. In fact, it's not on the way from anywhere to anywhere else at all. Drop 50 turrets in there, skulks can waltz right by outside it and never have to worry. So its only importance is as a double res point, or sometimes as a forward position when trying to take feedwater. The problem I see with it not being teritorially important is that marines can reloc there and be basically ignored the whole game. I've seen marine turtles in atmos last for a long time. They never do manage to hold any more nodes for more than a minute or two, but they keep those double nodes forever while the aliens cap the rest of the map and all the hives. And as everyone knows, turtling is just boring. The marines have already lost, but the game will go on for an extra half hour as they keep handing out one or two heavy kits at a time, or HMGs, or GLs...
Compare this to, say, central on caged. It's a massive choke point. You almost can't get from any one important location to another without going through there. A marine reloc to central will almost never last the whole game and the dull turtling problem is never an issue. If the marines aren't moving out and fighting, they'll eventually be killed just by passing random aliens.
Bah, enough useless pontificating. How to fix this? I'm not sure. Like I said it's almost impossible to do without either totally rearranging the map, making it no longer bast, or by changing atmos to a single res point. Neither are very happy solutions...
Is my current suggestion for engine, this does a number of things, stops you from being able to siege engine room with a turret factory in marine spawn and means if marines are in main aft you're not trapped. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a really fine idea, fixed alot of things. I think it's superb.
<img src='http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~rmoulton/bast_remake.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
but engin hive is to far from the other 2 - so that is going back to a marine domince map
amckern
[EDIT] Spelling
[EDIT2] Spelling again....
read sticky for irc detials
amckern
Exactly, zero playtests.
<img src='http://mrben.thezazi.net/images/bastlayout.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
By removing the rotating door you make DBL accessible from all starting locations which should make for some interesting fights but at the same time you do not need to hold it to gain access anywhere. Feedwater is probably the worst hive to take dbl from so i tried to balance that with the water tunnel access + giving them an RT or two near their spawn, at the same time though one rt is close to MS so it's not giving them it on a stick.
Should aliens not start in feed then maybe we're giving the marines too many nodes on that side of the map but with a vent from engine to feedwater that shouldn't make it too inaccesible and the sane applies from refinery to feed and finally double node to feedwater.
This is just idle MrBen speculation not our plan of action, thoughts on it though.
However, access to tram tunnel from there could be a useful idea.
So have fun getting screamed at by everyone, guys. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The one thing I hated about bast was how alien-sided it is.
The movement of the rts seriously helps.
and feedwater, engine, and refinery all look beautiful.
I don't understand why some people complain about changing the commander closet thing to make it more easily defendable, and more easily accessed.
Its a discision between three things.<ol type='1'><li>Improve the gameplay for the bigger aliens near engine(well has to be tested, but I think it's better with the suggested idea)</li><li>Keep it the way it is, with just small improvements not new sections to keep the being part of large facility feeling going.</li><li>Move the defective rotating door in such a way that it keeps its function and preserve the logical layout (so it doesn't lok out of place)...</li></ol>Those are just my thoughts on it since it is also the bigest problem of the map (2nd bigest is the Onos crawling corridor, which you fixed? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<span style='color:gray'>[edit]
uhm... grey text</span>