<!--quoteo(post=1917550:date=Mar 25 2012, 12:02 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then make it so walljumping isn't the only mechanic for hive 1 skulks, since it's so predictable and limited!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunnyhopping was nothing if not predictable. Either skulks would bunnyhop straight at you, or they would ambush you instead. You're imagining a problem that isn't there.
I'd just like to say that the recent videos of elodea and Skie are the first videos that have given me that "I want to play right now" feeling since NS2's conception. The Skulk is definitely taking steps in the right direction and I'm so glad the problem we're facing is that the skulk might actually be too fast! I'm still a bunnyhopping advocate and I'd love to see it work a little better in isolation but I'm excited to get back into NS2 once Lent is over.
Couldn't it just be changed to that whenever you used leap from a wall surface and landed on another wall, it would instantly recharge. No need to turn on console stuff or wiggle the camera in an odd way, and it's very easy to explain and execute.
<!--quoteo(post=1917547:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I definitely feel that this system is too complicated and unintuitive. The speed boost based on timing does not make sense, it is an arbitrary game mechanic not unlike bunnyhopping. I could bunnyhop with the best of them in NS1 but this system just perplexes me. NS2 doesn't need anything like that, don't forget the whole reason bunnyhopping was removed in the first place. The fact that this system is all but impossible to explain without turning on cheats and revealing the speed/timing bars is proof enough of how it's flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Makes me wonder why BHop isnt just added in. They basically made WHop (a poor substitute.)
<!--quoteo(post=1917547:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any system you implement should be inherently simple with no need for special mechanics in place to regulate its behavior. I don't think there's any need for the timing element or the angles or whatever, just make it so you get a speed boost when you jump off a wall. Make it last for a short period of time before you have to do it again. Done. No fancy mechanics, no magic timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be an interesting way to go. Add the BHop mechanic with a built in jump script making timing easier but require a wall to start it and air control/jump timing to keep the speed up (maybe even gain more?) and then i would have no problem with wall jump.
I think its important to note that just spamming jump in HL1 would make your bhop complete crap. It was all about how you used the map and jumps to your advantage, somewhat similar to the first video Skie made. However watching the second video of its uses in combat.. it looks rather limited, most of the time it hardly seemed like you were using it.
Anyone saying that bhop is easy with a 3 jump bind should go load up ze_marinebhop and try it out.. ill even link a video on the solution for you <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs</a> And this is nothing compared to using it effectively and fluently in combat.
I would like to see a video of someone really using the wallhop in combat for very quick effective kills.
<!--quoteo(post=1917558:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:10 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 25 2012, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping was nothing if not predictable. Either skulks would bunnyhop straight at you, or they would ambush you instead. You're imagining a problem that isn't there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody good bunnyhops straight at their opponent in any fps game that allows it. They airstrafe between jumps to confuse opponents.
<!--quoteo(post=1917569:date=Mar 25 2012, 12:21 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be an interesting way to go. Add the BHop mechanic with a built in jump script making timing easier but require a wall to start it and air control/jump timing to keep the speed up (maybe even gain more?) and then i would have no problem with wall jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be clear I don't think you should have to jump repeatedly to maintain the boost either. That just seems like a relic of bunnyhopping, if the player wants to just run then why not let them? That would actually make it less predictable.
<!--quoteo(post=1917573:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 25 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its important to note that just spamming jump in HL1 would make your bhop complete crap. It was all about how you used the map and jumps to your advantage, somewhat similar to the first video Skie made. However watching the second video of its uses in combat.. it looks rather limited, most of the time it hardly seemed like you were using it.
Anyone saying that bhop is easy with a 3 jump bind should go load up ze_marinebhop and try it out.. ill even link a video on the solution for you <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs</a> And this is nothing compared to using it effectively and fluently in combat.
I would like to see a video of someone really using the wallhop in combat for very quick effective kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the only way to make use of it would be gain speed before hand, fly into a room, do a lerk like bite pass, get out of the room, and repeat. Makes for some boring gameplay. The only thing making this work is poor frame rate and lack of hit reg. Once that is perfected the huge skulk model coming straight at you in a straight line will open some eyes finally.
I'm just sad to see Skie champion this cause. I love his input and support for Wall Hopping but the bias flag has to be waved now if he is actively working with the dev team to improve it. He has been <i>Tainted</i>.
Edit* <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be clear I don't think you should have to jump repeatedly to maintain the boost either. That just seems like a relic of bunnyhopping, if the player wants to just run then why not let them? That would actually make it less predictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point, but you should have to do something to maintain the speed. Some depth would be nice =)
<!--quoteo(post=1917580:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:31 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if he is actively working with the dev team to improve it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to hate on Skie, but this is a concern too. How much input do the playtesters have into the design of the game? I trust Flayra, Cory etc a lot more than someone who likes one specific mechanic<i> a lot</i> and wants to spend time promoting it in the game...
I like the videos. I think this does gel a bit better with the skulk wall climbing. I also like that it takes skill and seems less wobbly head than bunny jumping.
I do think it still lacks intuitiveness. The sound cue is helpful but the speed differential seems to only be noticeable after 2 chained.
I would suggest a bar similar to that of golfing games. When you pull the perfect hit you know it.
gears of war had the nicely timed reload bar. you got a visual and sound cue.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1917582:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to hate on Skie, but this is a concern too. How much input do the playtesters have into the design of the game? I trust Flayra, Cory etc a lot more than someone who likes one specific mechanic<i> a lot</i> and wants to spend time promoting it in the game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like we said before, we give feedback on everything they put into the game. Our feedback can be negative or positive vs certain changes, but in the end it is still up to de developers to use it the way they see fit. Goes for public feedback as well, we just have a direct line to them.
Also RisingSun, that remark vs Skie is uncalled for and highly misplaced as well!
Golf games are a great example of why having any kind of 'bar' with a sweet spot is a silly waste of time. If I can practice it enough and get the exact perfect timing every jump, why bother in the first place? Mechanics that require dedication should be opportunities for opponents to take you out of your comfort zone and see if you practiced under new conditions. When I walljump as a skulk, I know I'm still really terrible at it because I haven't practiced a lot, but I know I'll eventually get it figured out. At that point, there's nothing new to do with it except realize the limitations of the maps holding me back.
When you want to make a certain shot in whatever golf game, you pick a certain club and angle, then push the button on the sweet spot of the bar. When you want to walljump as a skulk, you jump at the wall and push the button in the sweet spot of the bar. When you're bunnyhopping around aerowalk in a CPMA duel, you're pushing the spacebar like a trained monkey, and strafing/turning to change your direction <i>according to what the opponent does</i>. The skulk has very little room for variety/creativity in using the walljump, compared to any game with classic bunnyhopping... and yet someone will quote this and say that because they just jump in straight lines it's not true. Cool!
<!--quoteo(post=1917585:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:37 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Mar 25 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also RisingSun, that remark vs Skie is uncalled for and highly misplaced as well!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was more a teasing jab, but if it hit a sore spot that only highlights maybe how true it is. Half his post defends the wall hop with "it's fun" which is awesome for him but as we all know that is opinion. I am not saying discount anything he says but if he is indeed working on this and testing this mechanic he will of course think it is the best thing ever, just like anyone else would stand behind their input till death. It is not uncalled for unless the "tainted" line is what you are talking about and that was just for humor purposes.
<!--quoteo(post=1917580:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:31 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just sad to see Skie champion this cause. I love his input and support for Wall Hopping but the bias lag has to be waved now if he is actively working with the dev team to improve it. He has been <i>Tainted</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Questioning design decisions is one thing, calling another community member 'tainted' due to him wanting to help improve the game makes you look disrespectful. Please do not speak like that again. Focus on gameplay changes you'd like to see so we can debate them without being childish.
His point clearly stands, though. Do you think so much emphasis would be placed on walljumping if 2-3 people hadn't promoted the hell out of it with the developers (even though 90% of players can't/don't use it)? It's been said several times in both threads that people don't know about this mechanic until they read the forums, but if you talk to someone who really likes to walljump, it's one of the defining aspects of the skulk.
As a reply to <b>RisingSun</b>: It's more like the devs change the walljump mechanics and then they tell me how it works, then I exploit it to my fullest ability and give some notes on how to adjust the values so that it's not too slow or too fast. Of course as I have played fps games since Wolf3D, favouring Quakes, I'm pretty good at learning new movement systems and it's hard to tell how other people pick up these skills. I got into this 'test rat' position for the skulk movement by showing a lot of interest in it.
Of course I'm a bit biased since I've been tweaking the .lua values directly myself as well, to some degree, but I can be swayed and the devs keep changing it against my input as well.
Someone tossed out during one of these threads that the timing would be more intuitive if you just jump within some allotted time, and it doesn't have to be so precise. I like that idea.
Also, it would probably be good to have some in-game tutorials for all classes and the game itself, launchable from the game menu. It could explain all the movement stuff, what buildings do etc. Dystopia, a HL2 mod, had this and it was pretty nifty.
It's nice to see that at least some people are enjoying the movement. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1917500:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:44 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping in the HL games is so incredibly dumb. I can't imagine any developer wanting to put in script-friendly "skill based" movement. I'm also not sure why people think bunnyhop was good.
At least the skulk jump takes foresight and skill. You can't script it. You can't simply spam your jump to execute it. It could definitely use some explanation for newer players, but it is intuitive after you see one or two players do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a script that just lets me constantly hop while spacebar is held (i made it to not wear out my spacebar when playing lerk) and if i honestly put any more effort into it i'm sure i could make wall jumping into a pretty decent script, just aim at a wall and hold a button.
It's not unscriptable, and it's also absolutely obnoxious in its new iteration, where you literally don't stick to walls AT ALL for no apparent reason. Before it was pretty easy to bounce up to 10+ speed, now i barely sustain 9, no matter how hard i try because the timing and aiming are absurd, i have to wait like .2 of a second after hitting a wall to jump again.
Easiest way to make this easily accessible for everyone is simply make spacebar "Auto hop" when you have it held down. Then give a speed boost when you jump off a wall at an angle adjacent to the direction you're traveling, poof. Easy and Intuitive.
ok ok ok. Holy gorge crap. Let's put this in perspective. I like Skie, i have enjoyed his posts, and read every word because i value his opinion. It is well known that i hate wall hopping. I have given it a shot and i HATE it. The devs have created a poor system to replace my beloved bunny hop and we have players defending their creation. GREAT, but by no means was i putting down Skie for his stance or anything he has said. the word tainted was in italics because it was supposed to be funny. If my comment offended SKIE, then i apologize. I dont need other people coming to his defense, he is a big boy and can post himself. Also dont dare tell me what i can and cant post when i follow the forum rules (if i have broken one PLEASE show me.). This is the equivalent to me calling his shirt silly because i dont like the color. I think the ones that need to grow up are the ones coming to his defense. I didnt even call him a bad name... I mean really?
We the players poor our time, thoughts, and emotions in this game day in and day out for more than 3 years now (cant remember the exact time frame, but it is a lot) and things get heated. This is not one of those times till certain icon swaggering members jumped in.
Again, this is for Skie, if i have hurt your feelings by using the word "tainted" i am sorry this offended you and will more carefully choose my words in regards to your person.
<!--quoteo(post=1917606:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:53 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone tossed out during one of these threads that the timing would be more intuitive if you just jump within some allotted time, and it doesn't have to be so precise. I like that idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what do you say to jumping on the floor doesn't need to be timed too precise as well? Like in Quake?
I personally like that we are able to give feedback right now and you try to get the player's view to the devs, there's nothing wrong with that. And you are right about the tutorials. And I like that the skulk is too fast ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1917609:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:54 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 06:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easiest way to make this easily accessible for everyone is simply make spacebar "Auto hop" when you have it held down. Then give a speed boost when you jump off a wall at an angle adjacent to the direction you're traveling, poof. Easy and Intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1917611:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:55 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the word tainted was in italics because it was supposed to be funny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing with humor or jokes on the internet is that they are in text only. So there is a high possibility they can be mistaken for something else instead of joking about stuff, even if it was posted in italic.
I don't quite understand why people think it is hard to learn and why it must be easier for them, maybe I am just inhuman.. but aside from that, I have figured out skulk jumping by myself by just playing the game.. The more you play the game, the more you learn.... :)
Like all games, there is a degree of learning, and hence in NS2 its a skill-based movement it shouldn't come to you right away. You shouldn't be able to just "easy-mode" it because then it would be no fun.
It is like quake live strafe jumping <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfb_kwvhQ9c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfb_kwvhQ9c</a> or counter-strike surfing.. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64V6QBMSPk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64V6QBMSPk</a>
It is all about learning and I hope UWE keeps a challenge to it.
Playing the new skulk in 201 only took around a few hours of play to get it down, it wasn't that hard.
<!--quoteo(post=1917617:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Mar 25 2012, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing with humor or jokes on the internet is that they are in text only. So there is a high possibility they can be mistaken for something else instead of joking about stuff, even if it was posted in italic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted Kouji, you are another tester i respect and enjoy reading your posts. I am not saying i was wrong, only that let Skie let me know it was hurtful. My humor can be dark sometimes but that is me. I get worked up easily as many know and i did not intend to be hurtful towards Skie. Let's let this drop and get back to the manner at hand.
Wall Hopping sucks and this is why: It requires WALLS. There you go. Argue that! It is limited and inferior to BHopping because of this and is a poor poor substitute no matter who defends it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1917619:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:09 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Granted Kouji, you are another tester i respect and enjoy reading your posts. I am not saying i was wrong, only that let Skie let me know it was hurtful. My humor can be dark sometimes but that is me. I get worked up easily as many know and i did not intend to be hurtful towards Skie. Let's let this drop and get back to the manner at hand.
Wall Hopping sucks and this is why: It requires WALLS. There you go. Argue that! It is limited and inferior to BHopping because of this and is a poor poor substitute no matter who defends it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think we can let you get away with this, now that you've insulted his shirt!
<!--quoteo(post=1917617:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Mar 25 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing with humor or jokes on the internet is that they are in text only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep there are humourless people who need to be purged. Yep.
<!--quoteo(post=1917618:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:08 PM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ Mar 25 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't quite understand why people think it is hard to learn and why it must be easier for them, maybe I am just inhuman.. but aside from that, I have figured out skulk jumping by myself by just playing the game.. The more you play the game, the more you learn.... :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me, it's the fact that we've had like 10 builds now where you have to sit down and re-learn the skulk every time. You have to spend time over and over in order to still be able to play the basic introductory lifeform, which ultimately <b>does the same things</b>. I'm so sick of it that I hardly do anything before I get my first 30 res as an alien right now. I just evolve to lerk because it has real movement mechanics, and enjoy playing that. By the time I die, we have a second hive so I can leap and the skulk is playable again. I love this game and I play it a lot - why should someone like me be pushed to give feedback like this?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1917471:date=Mar 25 2012, 10:02 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Mar 25 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. For .25s after a jump, wallwalking is also disabled for some reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is a left over from the previous wall jump code to prevent exploiting (spamming jump at the same wall was leading to insane speeds). i think this is not needed anymore with the new code
<!--quoteo(post=1917624:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:12 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me, it's the fact that we've had like 10 builds now where you have to sit down and re-learn the skulk every time. You have to spend time over and over in order to still be able to play the basic introductory lifeform, which ultimately <b>does the same things</b>. I'm so sick of it that I hardly do anything before I get my first 30 res as an alien right now. I just evolve to lerk because it has real movement mechanics, and enjoy playing that. By the time I die, we have a second hive so I can leap and the skulk is playable again. I love this game and I play it a lot - why should someone like me be pushed to give feedback like this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is a bit moot, I think... because this is 10 builds in a beta game, expect huge changes, otherwise NS2 beta might not be for you. If you were a consumer and bought the game after release you don't have to deal with beta frustration. I am glad UWE is experimenting, they need to get it right!
I feel like the audio feedback is rather pointless... you already feel if you got a good speedboost or not.
Where audio feedback would be useful is to know when the whitebar is at its peak or shortly before its peak. (so its easier to figure out when to press jump - especially usefull if you want to make those chain walljumps without touching the ground inbetween)
Stickyness is my main problem atm. Sometimes i don't attach to a wall, and sometimes i attach to some little crap getting me sticky in a way i dont want.
With bunnyhop you can always count on the ground... its not like you sometimes suddenly dont touch the ground even tho you jumped on it... the sticky mechanic makes it very random sometimes.
(walljumping is not hard, only those chain walljumps without touching the ground inbetween are... and it seems like speed gain and falloff is balanced around the possibility of doing this)
Comments
Bunnyhopping was nothing if not predictable. Either skulks would bunnyhop straight at you, or they would ambush you instead. You're imagining a problem that isn't there.
Makes me wonder why BHop isnt just added in. They basically made WHop (a poor substitute.)
<!--quoteo(post=1917547:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any system you implement should be inherently simple with no need for special mechanics in place to regulate its behavior. I don't think there's any need for the timing element or the angles or whatever, just make it so you get a speed boost when you jump off a wall. Make it last for a short period of time before you have to do it again. Done. No fancy mechanics, no magic timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be an interesting way to go. Add the BHop mechanic with a built in jump script making timing easier but require a wall to start it and air control/jump timing to keep the speed up (maybe even gain more?) and then i would have no problem with wall jump.
Anyone saying that bhop is easy with a 3 jump bind should go load up ze_marinebhop and try it out.. ill even link a video on the solution for you
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs</a>
And this is nothing compared to using it effectively and fluently in combat.
I would like to see a video of someone really using the wallhop in combat for very quick effective kills.
Nobody good bunnyhops straight at their opponent in any fps game that allows it. They airstrafe between jumps to confuse opponents.
To be clear I don't think you should have to jump repeatedly to maintain the boost either. That just seems like a relic of bunnyhopping, if the player wants to just run then why not let them? That would actually make it less predictable.
Anyone saying that bhop is easy with a 3 jump bind should go load up ze_marinebhop and try it out.. ill even link a video on the solution for you
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2aIk3e1kPs</a>
And this is nothing compared to using it effectively and fluently in combat.
I would like to see a video of someone really using the wallhop in combat for very quick effective kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the only way to make use of it would be gain speed before hand, fly into a room, do a lerk like bite pass, get out of the room, and repeat. Makes for some boring gameplay. The only thing making this work is poor frame rate and lack of hit reg. Once that is perfected the huge skulk model coming straight at you in a straight line will open some eyes finally.
I'm just sad to see Skie champion this cause. I love his input and support for Wall Hopping but the bias flag has to be waved now if he is actively working with the dev team to improve it. He has been <i>Tainted</i>.
Edit*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be clear I don't think you should have to jump repeatedly to maintain the boost either. That just seems like a relic of bunnyhopping, if the player wants to just run then why not let them? That would actually make it less predictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, but you should have to do something to maintain the speed. Some depth would be nice =)
Not to hate on Skie, but this is a concern too. How much input do the playtesters have into the design of the game? I trust Flayra, Cory etc a lot more than someone who likes one specific mechanic<i> a lot</i> and wants to spend time promoting it in the game...
I think this does gel a bit better with the skulk wall climbing.
I also like that it takes skill and seems less wobbly head than bunny jumping.
I do think it still lacks intuitiveness.
The sound cue is helpful but the speed differential seems to only be noticeable after 2 chained.
I would suggest a bar similar to that of golfing games.
When you pull the perfect hit you know it.
gears of war had the nicely timed reload bar.
you got a visual and sound cue.
Like we said before, we give feedback on everything they put into the game. Our feedback can be negative or positive vs certain changes, but in the end it is still up to de developers to use it the way they see fit. Goes for public feedback as well, we just have a direct line to them.
Also RisingSun, that remark vs Skie is uncalled for and highly misplaced as well!
When you want to make a certain shot in whatever golf game, you pick a certain club and angle, then push the button on the sweet spot of the bar. When you want to walljump as a skulk, you jump at the wall and push the button in the sweet spot of the bar. When you're bunnyhopping around aerowalk in a CPMA duel, you're pushing the spacebar like a trained monkey, and strafing/turning to change your direction <i>according to what the opponent does</i>. The skulk has very little room for variety/creativity in using the walljump, compared to any game with classic bunnyhopping... and yet someone will quote this and say that because they just jump in straight lines it's not true. Cool!
It was more a teasing jab, but if it hit a sore spot that only highlights maybe how true it is. Half his post defends the wall hop with "it's fun" which is awesome for him but as we all know that is opinion. I am not saying discount anything he says but if he is indeed working on this and testing this mechanic he will of course think it is the best thing ever, just like anyone else would stand behind their input till death. It is not uncalled for unless the "tainted" line is what you are talking about and that was just for humor purposes.
Questioning design decisions is one thing, calling another community member 'tainted' due to him wanting to help improve the game makes you look disrespectful. Please do not speak like that again. Focus on gameplay changes you'd like to see so we can debate them without being childish.
Of course I'm a bit biased since I've been tweaking the .lua values directly myself as well, to some degree, but I can be swayed and the devs keep changing it against my input as well.
Someone tossed out during one of these threads that the timing would be more intuitive if you just jump within some allotted time, and it doesn't have to be so precise. I like that idea.
Also, it would probably be good to have some in-game tutorials for all classes and the game itself, launchable from the game menu. It could explain all the movement stuff, what buildings do etc. Dystopia, a HL2 mod, had this and it was pretty nifty.
It's nice to see that at least some people are enjoying the movement. :)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +3jumps "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump"
alias -3jumps "-jump"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Now you're pro at bunny hopping!
At least the skulk jump takes foresight and skill. You can't script it. You can't simply spam your jump to execute it. It could definitely use some explanation for newer players, but it is intuitive after you see one or two players do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a script that just lets me constantly hop while spacebar is held (i made it to not wear out my spacebar when playing lerk) and if i honestly put any more effort into it i'm sure i could make wall jumping into a pretty decent script, just aim at a wall and hold a button.
It's not unscriptable, and it's also absolutely obnoxious in its new iteration, where you literally don't stick to walls AT ALL for no apparent reason. Before it was pretty easy to bounce up to 10+ speed, now i barely sustain 9, no matter how hard i try because the timing and aiming are absurd, i have to wait like .2 of a second after hitting a wall to jump again.
Easiest way to make this easily accessible for everyone is simply make spacebar "Auto hop" when you have it held down. Then give a speed boost when you jump off a wall at an angle adjacent to the direction you're traveling, poof. Easy and Intuitive.
We the players poor our time, thoughts, and emotions in this game day in and day out for more than 3 years now (cant remember the exact time frame, but it is a lot) and things get heated. This is not one of those times till certain icon swaggering members jumped in.
Again, this is for Skie, if i have hurt your feelings by using the word "tainted" i am sorry this offended you and will more carefully choose my words in regards to your person.
And what do you say to jumping on the floor doesn't need to be timed too precise as well? Like in Quake?
I personally like that we are able to give feedback right now and you try to get the player's view to the devs, there's nothing wrong with that. And you are right about the tutorials.
And I like that the skulk is too fast ;)
That.
The thing with humor or jokes on the internet is that they are in text only. So there is a high possibility they can be mistaken for something else instead of joking about stuff, even if it was posted in italic.
Like all games, there is a degree of learning, and hence in NS2 its a skill-based movement it shouldn't come to you right away. You shouldn't be able to just "easy-mode" it because then it would be no fun.
It is like quake live strafe jumping <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfb_kwvhQ9c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfb_kwvhQ9c</a> or counter-strike surfing.. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64V6QBMSPk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64V6QBMSPk</a>
It is all about learning and I hope UWE keeps a challenge to it.
Playing the new skulk in 201 only took around a few hours of play to get it down, it wasn't that hard.
Granted Kouji, you are another tester i respect and enjoy reading your posts. I am not saying i was wrong, only that let Skie let me know it was hurtful. My humor can be dark sometimes but that is me. I get worked up easily as many know and i did not intend to be hurtful towards Skie. Let's let this drop and get back to the manner at hand.
Wall Hopping sucks and this is why: It requires WALLS. There you go. Argue that! It is limited and inferior to BHopping because of this and is a poor poor substitute no matter who defends it.
Wall Hopping sucks and this is why: It requires WALLS. There you go. Argue that! It is limited and inferior to BHopping because of this and is a poor poor substitute no matter who defends it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we can let you get away with this, now that you've insulted his shirt!
Yep there are humourless people who need to be purged. Yep.
<!--quoteo(post=1917618:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:08 PM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ Mar 25 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't quite understand why people think it is hard to learn and why it must be easier for them, maybe I am just inhuman.. but aside from that, I have figured out skulk jumping by myself by just playing the game.. The more you play the game, the more you learn.... :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me, it's the fact that we've had like 10 builds now where you have to sit down and re-learn the skulk every time. You have to spend time over and over in order to still be able to play the basic introductory lifeform, which ultimately <b>does the same things</b>. I'm so sick of it that I hardly do anything before I get my first 30 res as an alien right now. I just evolve to lerk because it has real movement mechanics, and enjoy playing that. By the time I die, we have a second hive so I can leap and the skulk is playable again. I love this game and I play it a lot - why should someone like me be pushed to give feedback like this?
that is a left over from the previous wall jump code to prevent exploiting (spamming jump at the same wall was leading to insane speeds). i think this is not needed anymore with the new code
Your point is a bit moot, I think... because this is 10 builds in a beta game, expect huge changes, otherwise NS2 beta might not be for you. If you were a consumer and bought the game after release you don't have to deal with beta frustration. I am glad UWE is experimenting, they need to get it right!
Where audio feedback would be useful is to know when the whitebar is at its peak or shortly before its peak. (so its easier to figure out when to press jump - especially usefull if you want to make those chain walljumps without touching the ground inbetween)
Stickyness is my main problem atm.
Sometimes i don't attach to a wall, and sometimes i attach to some little crap getting me sticky in a way i dont want.
With bunnyhop you can always count on the ground... its not like you sometimes suddenly dont touch the ground even tho you jumped on it... the sticky mechanic makes it very random sometimes.
(walljumping is not hard, only those chain walljumps without touching the ground inbetween are... and it seems like speed gain and falloff is balanced around the possibility of doing this)
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