<!--quoteo(post=1917691:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:27 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially, they're trying to make a difficult mechanic to use that gives you an unfair advantage against other players if you master it.
Which was bunnyhopping.
Instead they should give you an easy mechanic to use, that you're encouraged to use to greatly increase your mobility/versatility in combat.
The issue is eventually, bunnyhopping type movement becomes impossible to balance around, because players that can't do it suck, and players who can do it are too good, so changing skulks in any way makes bad players worse, or can make good players godlike. Whereas a simpler movement mechanic can be easily balanced around, because everyone's expected to be using it, or trying to use it well.
You can't balance bunnyhopping, so you can't have it in a game you want balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's ridiculous. Using that logic, balancing weapons is impossible because good players aim so much better than bad players.
Movement is a skill outlet, just like aiming is. Movement needs a high skill ceiling, just like aiming. You wouldn't want good players equal to bad players in aiming, so why do you want it for movement?
<!--quoteo(post=1917697:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:30 AM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ Mar 25 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a skill that must be learned, if you can't do it.. well keep trying to learn.. there is nothing stopping a player from gaining the same skill.
That is the way I see it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game is unbalanced with hard to learn movement mechanics in it, alien team can lose pretty badly if none of the players know how to wallhop, since they can't get anywhere quickly.
Even if 1-2 of the aliens don't know, thats 1-2 alies that aren't there to help you when you need it.
I repeat, you can't balance the game with mechanics like bunnyhopping.
They have to be simple and easy for everyone to use, there can't be silly timing involved or you can't balance the game because some people are using it and others aren't.
<!--quoteo(post=1917698:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:30 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 25 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I think of when i hear 'skill based movement' is actually gliding around as a lerk. There's a skill to managing to evade obstacles, get close enough to accurately crop dust marines, and then escape through a far exit before marines have chance to react. You can tailor it to your skill level because you can fly further away if you aren't comfortable with it, but you won't do quite as well with spores, and you can choose an easier exit if you don't think you can hit a vent perfectly. It's also not very difficult to figure out, you learn to do it simply by playing lerk. It's an application of a necessary skill to get good results under pressure. It also doesn't require a million button presses to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, this was the example I used in my skulk movement thread. The lerk has a gigantic assortment of movement techniques, and every single one is very easy to start learning. The class is all about flying and it's ridiculously fun. I've only seen like 2 people who hadn't figured out flying as a lerk, and it was probably because nothing in the game really tells you the details about it. I helped them on to the path of righteousness, of course :)
<!--quoteo(post=1917699:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:32 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's ridiculous. Using that logic, balancing weapons is impossible because good players aim so much better than bad players.
Movement is a skill outlet, just like aiming is. Movement needs a high skill ceiling, just like aiming. You wouldn't want good players equal to bad players in aiming, so why do you want it for movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the skill cap for pointing and clicking at that little moving skulk on your screen and hitting all 10 or so bullets, isn't the same kind of skill cap as hitting spacebar constantly aiming up and down on walls and zigging back and forth.
One of them is learned in every fps, the other isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1917693:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 25 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it does not just require WALLS, it requires a change in surface angle/height, or at least that is the intention. So, that includes crates, railings, catwalks, pipes, stairs, tram cars, etc, as well as the floor for a single jump. The maps are filled with stuff that has to be there to visually break up a room and add more cover for aliens, and those same props are meant to be used in the wall jumping mechanic, as well. Admittedly, there are still some issues with this, and jumping off stuff like crates does not work all that well sometimes, and there is a known issue with trying to jump when going up stairs and ramps, as right now it stops your movement almost completely.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell, i knew my blaspheming would bring down the wrath of god... Thank you for weighing in Cory. I think, now i could be wrong, but i think this is the first time a dev has explained the direction of the METHOD of wall jumping and what you want us to be able to do/what we should be using to do this. I have the mentality that i should stick my skulk onto a vertical surface which i clue into the biggest object i have, which is walls.
If the speed is can be maintained with little degradation and i have the ability to use props such as railings and mid size objects without it being to difficult to stick to the side of it instead of the top i might be happy.
The sounds queue was a cool idea imo and it having different sounds related to the success rate.
<!--quoteo(post=1917691:date=Mar 26 2012, 06:27 AM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 26 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially, they're trying to make a difficult mechanic to use that gives you an unfair advantage against other players if you master it.
Which was bunnyhopping.
Instead they should give you an easy mechanic to use, that you're encouraged to use to greatly increase your mobility/versatility in combat.
The issue is eventually, bunnyhopping type movement becomes impossible to balance around, because players that can't do it suck, and players who can do it are too good, so changing skulks in any way makes bad players worse, or can make good players godlike. Whereas a simpler movement mechanic can be easily balanced around, because everyone's expected to be using it, or trying to use it well.
You can't balance bunnyhopping, so you can't have it in a game you want balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An unfair advantage <i>against your own team members?</i> First off, skulks can do well enough without chained walljumping if they attack intelligently(although I guess, by definition of being bad then I that means bad players won't be doing as such). Get in, do some damage, get out again. Don't sacrifice yourself needlessly.
Stop calling this bunnyhopping, because it isn't. The way players react and track it is completely different. The way it causes a skulk to act in combat is different. How quickly the speed is gained is different. Stop calling it bunnyhopping.
What's wrong with bad players being bad and great players being able to project that somehow, why try and remove differentiation in skill? It makes for fantastic and interesting competition.
<!--quoteo(post=1917703:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the skill cap for pointing and clicking at that little moving skulk on your screen and hitting all 10 or so bullets, isn't the same kind of skill cap as hitting spacebar constantly aiming up and down on walls and zigging back and forth.
One of them is learned in every fps, the other isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your first problem. You aren't supposed to spam your space bar.
Basically your argument boils down to you can't do the skill based movement and you want the same payoff as those who can. So you simply dumb it down until it is acceptable for you to perform. You're arguing that the skill based movement takes too much skill. I'm not sure I can agree with skill based games taking too much skill.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1917698:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:30 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 25 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I think of when i hear 'skill based movement' is actually gliding around as a lerk. There's a skill to managing to evade obstacles, get close enough to accurately crop dust marines, and then escape through a far exit before marines have chance to react. You can tailor it to your skill level because you can fly further away if you aren't comfortable with it, but you won't do quite as well with spores, and you can choose an easier exit if you don't think you can hit a vent perfectly. It's also not very difficult to figure out, you learn to do it simply by playing lerk. It's an application of a necessary skill to get good results under pressure. It also doesn't require a million button presses to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately others would believe there is no skill involved with that and it would need to be the ns1 lerk hitbox exploit where you need to repetitively glide up and downwards to bug out your hitbox and make it harder for marines to shoot at you.
<!--quoteo(post=1917698:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:30 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 25 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I think of when i hear 'skill based movement' is actually gliding around as a lerk. There's a skill to managing to evade obstacles, get close enough to accurately crop dust marines, and then escape through a far exit before marines have chance to react. You can tailor it to your skill level because you can fly further away if you aren't comfortable with it, but you won't do quite as well with spores, and you can choose an easier exit if you don't think you can hit a vent perfectly. It's also not very difficult to figure out, you learn to do it simply by playing lerk. It's an application of a necessary skill to get good results under pressure. It also doesn't require a million button presses to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flying your lerk requires exactly as many buttons as walljumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1917709:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:40 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flying your lerk requires exactly as many buttons as walljumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way you push the buttons is much more intuitive.
You're flapping the wings of the lerk and leaning to turn.
What is the skulk doing when I'm on the wall in my 0.02323232 second timing window and I look up by 23.2323 degrees? Where's the equivalency to "a bird flapping its wings"?
When UWE demos the game at PAX, things like this are important, because Skie isn't going to be sitting there trying the skulk movement and telling his friends if he liked NS2 or not. It's going to be some kid who reads webcomics and owns an XBox.
<!--quoteo(post=1917705:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 25 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An unfair advantage <i>against your own team members?</i> First off, skulks can do well enough without chained walljumping if they attack intelligently(although I guess, by definition of being bad then I that means bad players won't be doing as such). Get in, do some damage, get out again. Don't sacrifice yourself needlessly.
Stop calling this bunnyhopping, because it isn't. The way players react and track it is completely different. The way it causes a skulk to act in combat is different. How quickly the speed is gained is different. Stop calling it bunnyhopping.
What's wrong with bad players being bad and great players being able to project that somehow, why try and remove differentiation in skill? It makes for fantastic and interesting competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a long hallway, marines at one end, skulks at the other.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
Cries on forums <b>"SKULK MOVEMENT TOO SLOW, MARINES OP"</b>
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums <b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b>
Pretty sure that points out the biggest flaw in this wall hop dealio, that without wallhopping skulks are indeed bad vs marines, but with it they are capable of nearly always making it to the right target.
So yeah, the game is unbalanced to the new player and aliens are relatively bad vs marines, whereas the experienced player just eats marines like nobody's buisness. That's not balanced, that won't EVER be balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1917712:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums <b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what if the marines were quick enough to aim at him when he predictably ran toward walls to trigger his gimmick?
Replies on forums <b>"WALLJUMP IS A BAD MECHANIC"</b> ...and here we are!
<!--quoteo(post=1917711:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:44 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way you push the buttons is much more intuitive.
You're flapping the wings of the lerk and leaning to turn.
What is the skulk doing when I'm on the wall in my 0.02323232 second timing window and I look up by 23.2323 degrees? Where's the equivalency to "a bird flapping its wings"?
When UWE demos the game at PAX, things like this are important, because Skie isn't going to be sitting there trying the skulk movement and telling his friends if he liked NS2 or not. It's going to be some kid who reads webcomics and owns and XBox.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the "skill" part. You have to, you know, learn it.
disclaimer: it obviously needs work, but dumbing it down to the point where everyone can fully execute it in about 5 minutes, like lerk flying, kills competition.
<!--quoteo(post=1917711:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:44 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's going to be some kid who reads webcomics and owns an XBox.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also this kid has probably never touched NS2 so most likely going to play like a total noob.
<!--quoteo(post=1917712:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have a long hallway, marines at one end, skulks at the other.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
Cries on forums <b>"SKULK MOVEMENT TOO SLOW, MARINES OP"</b>
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums <b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b>
Pretty sure that points out the biggest flaw in this wall hop dealio, that without wallhopping skulks are indeed bad vs marines, but with it they are capable of nearly always making it to the right target.
So yeah, the game is unbalanced to the new player and aliens are relatively bad vs marines, whereas the experienced player just eats marines like nobody's buisness. That's not balanced, that won't EVER be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the point... you can't just run down a hallway and expect to kill a marine, you will die. People expect to master a game right away out of the box, why? What fun is that? Do you not want to be able to master a technique such as skulk 'protruding prop/wall' jumping? It sure as hell makes it a lot more fun mastering the technique than just having nothing at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1917706:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:39 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's your first problem. You aren't supposed to spam your space bar.
Basically your argument boils down to you can't do the skill based movement and you want the same payoff as those who can. So you simply dumb it down until it is acceptable for you to perform. You're arguing that the skill based movement takes too much skill. I'm not sure I can agree with skill based games taking too much skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*shrug* so what? i'll just script it and pee all over your "Skill based movement" because honestly i don't want to play a match of ns2 that requires hitting my spacebar every half second for an entire 6-7 minutes.
It's not that i can't do it, it's that it's obnoxious and shouldn't be.
<!--quoteo(post=1917716:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the "skill" part. You have to, you know, learn it.
disclaimer: it obviously needs work, but dumbing it down to the point where everyone can fully execute it in about 5 minutes, like lerk flying, kills competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think new players can fly like the best lerks in 5 minutes. At least not while also being effective in the game. That's the part Kama was talking about - performing under pressure, using movement mechanics but as a backdrop for other goals.
<!--quoteo(post=1917712:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have a long hallway, marines at one end, skulks at the other.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
Cries on forums <b>"SKULK MOVEMENT TOO SLOW, MARINES OP"</b>
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums <b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b>
Pretty sure that points out the biggest flaw in this wall hop dealio, that without wallhopping skulks are indeed bad vs marines, but with it they are capable of nearly always making it to the right target.
So yeah, the game is unbalanced to the new player and aliens are relatively bad vs marines, whereas the experienced player just eats marines like nobody's buisness. That's not balanced, that won't EVER be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try simply replacing "skulk" with "marine" and "walljump" with "LMG/Shotgun."
Now you just concluded that aiming is impossible to balance because good aimers will be good while bad aimers will be bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1917720:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:49 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think new players can fly like the best lerks in 5 minutes. At least not while also being effective in the game. That's the part Kama was talking about - performing under pressure, using movement mechanics but as a backdrop for other goals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They definitely can. There is no depth to lerk flying.
<!--quoteo(post=1917712:date=Mar 26 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 26 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have a long hallway, marines at one end, skulks at the other.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is what I mean by intelligent play if you don't want to rely on mechanical skill. <b>Don't run down a long hallway towards a bunch of marines.</b> Await in <i>ambushes</i>, go around for the <i>flank</i>. Attack <i>somewhere else.</i>
If the marines on the other end are as skilled as the skulks flying through with speed- directly, as you say -through a long hallway, the marines will win. It's still inadvisable to do so, and you're relying on the marines to make mistakes. Beating people who are worse than you doesn't make the game imbalanced, in fact it means quite the opposite.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You reasoning is good, except for one point, the marines also trained for weeks and improved vastly their aim, so they also shoot the skilled skulk like the un-skilled marines shooted the un-skilled skulk. Since you're smart, I let you draw the conclusions.
<!--quoteo(post=1917719:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:49 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*shrug* so what? i'll just script it and pee all over your "Skill based movement" because honestly i don't want to play a match of ns2 that requires hitting my spacebar every half second for an entire 6-7 minutes.
It's not that i can't do it, it's that it's obnoxious and shouldn't be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go ahead and script it. It would be terrible. You would run slower than if you just ran along the ground like someone who bought the game 30 minutes ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1917727:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:54 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 25 2012, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See, this is what I mean by intelligent play if you don't want to rely on mechanical skill. <b>Don't run down a long hallway towards a bunch of marines.</b> Await in <i>ambushes</i>, go around for the <i>flank</i>. Attack <i>somewhere else.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great idea. Now you're relying on your opponents failing to check for the most rudimentary skulk tactic (hiding). If you want to flank, that's great, but you still need to move fast. In fact, you need it more than on the main front because you spent time running through the flank. The fact that you're flanking doesn't instantly make you succeed unless, again, you're against the worst possible opponents.
The reason people want faster/more versatile movement is because it scales with player skill. Only in a server full of confused newbies can you get away with hiding in vents all day. It's not a skilled activity.
I like the new skulk movement, it just needs some fixing to make it work almost every time (but less effective on bad execution like it already is). The mappers will have to adapt their maps a little bit, too.
IMHO saying that this mechanic is bad, because people are not able to figure it out themselves is just not a valid reason. There are plenty of options to explain it to new players. May it be a scripted tutorial, a loading screen tip (including a picture of a wall, skulk and some direction arrows) or by just letting them watch other players do it.
It is not that hard to understand. Jump against a wall -> jump off the wall -> move faster. I think everyone is able to see and understand this.
<!--quoteo(post=1917701:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:34 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, this was the example I used in my skulk movement thread. The lerk has a gigantic assortment of movement techniques, and every single one is very easy to start learning. The class is all about flying and it's ridiculously fun. I've only seen like 2 people who hadn't figured out flying as a lerk, and it was probably because nothing in the game really tells you the details about it. I helped them on to the path of righteousness, of course :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the game could use maybe some hints on how to USE your flying to best effect, like telling you to consider the value of surprise, how flying into and out of a room quickly will probably mean you're perfectly safe because marines can't react that fast, as well as maybe telling you about the roost mechanic and how effective ambushing with it can be. But other than hints to think how your enemy will think, lerk is a pretty good class as far as skill goes. Honestly lerks do skulking better than skulks do, they're a really good mix of skill based attacking and ambushing potential.
That's the thing though, with lerks the effort goes into thinking how to PLAY the class, how to USE your abilities, not how to actually DO the movement.
Bunnyhopping is requring you to press three or four buttons to move forward, and the game is about who can move forward the best. Lerk is about giving you the ability to move forward very easily and move forward to all sorts of interesting and unexpected locations, and then challenging you to use that ability to best effect.
Skulks are an FPS where you have to manually operate every element of your gun, lerks are an FPS where that's done for you and so the focus is on how well you can out-tactics your opponent.
<!--quoteo(post=1917730:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great idea. Now you're relying on your opponents failing to check for the most rudimentary skulk tactic.
The reason people want faster/more versatile movement is because it scales with player skill. Only in a server full of confused newbies can you get away with hiding in vents all day. It's not a skilled activity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's completely incorrect. Running faster by holding "W" is not skill. All that does is close the gap between relatively good and bad players. That's not something you want in a competitive game.
<!--quoteo(post=1917731:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:56 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Mar 25 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO saying that this mechanic is bad, because people are not able to figure it out themselves is just not a valid reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But people are able to figure out all the other fundamental aspects of the game unassisted. Doesn't that make it sound like there might be a problem with the walljump?
<!--quoteo(post=1917733:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:57 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's completely incorrect. Running faster by holding "W" is not skill. All that does is close the gap between relatively good and bad players. That's not something you want in a competitive game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you're right. I was talking about holding W, not the plethora of movement mechanics we've been discussing. Keep up the good work!
<!--quoteo(post=1917734:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:58 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But people are able to figure out all the other fundamental aspects of the game unassisted. Doesn't that make it sound like there might be a problem with the walljump?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.... Some players do need assistance because they just aren't that great at learning or playing that type of video game, a person with higher skill of gaming obviously isn't going to need guides.
RL EXAMPLE MODE: Like some people are naturally good at riding a bike for the first time, some can't even ride a bike at all or it takes them 5000 times to get it right.
<!--quoteo(post=1917727:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:54 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 25 2012, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See, this is what I mean by intelligent play if you don't want to rely on mechanical skill. <b>Don't run down a long hallway towards a bunch of marines.</b> Await in <i>ambushes</i>, go around for the <i>flank</i>. Attack <i>somewhere else.</i>
If the marines on the other end are as skilled as the skulks flying through with speed- directly, as you say -through a long hallway, the marines will win. It's still inadvisable to do so, and you're relying on the marines to make mistakes. Beating people who are worse than you doesn't make the game imbalanced, in fact it means quite the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but the part you're missing
Is the player who can wallhop just flings himself at the marines and that works, other players try that and can't get it to work.
<!--quoteo(post=1917737:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah but the part you're missing
Is the player who can wallhop just flings himself at the marines and that works, other players try that and can't get it to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other plays can learn to wallhop and then can be just as effective as the first, skilled, player.
Comments
Which was bunnyhopping.
Instead they should give you an easy mechanic to use, that you're encouraged to use to greatly increase your mobility/versatility in combat.
The issue is eventually, bunnyhopping type movement becomes impossible to balance around, because players that can't do it suck, and players who can do it are too good, so changing skulks in any way makes bad players worse, or can make good players godlike. Whereas a simpler movement mechanic can be easily balanced around, because everyone's expected to be using it, or trying to use it well.
You can't balance bunnyhopping, so you can't have it in a game you want balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's ridiculous. Using that logic, balancing weapons is impossible because good players aim so much better than bad players.
Movement is a skill outlet, just like aiming is. Movement needs a high skill ceiling, just like aiming. You wouldn't want good players equal to bad players in aiming, so why do you want it for movement?
That is the way I see it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game is unbalanced with hard to learn movement mechanics in it, alien team can lose pretty badly if none of the players know how to wallhop, since they can't get anywhere quickly.
Even if 1-2 of the aliens don't know, thats 1-2 alies that aren't there to help you when you need it.
I repeat, you can't balance the game with mechanics like bunnyhopping.
They have to be simple and easy for everyone to use, there can't be silly timing involved or you can't balance the game because some people are using it and others aren't.
Yep, this was the example I used in my skulk movement thread. The lerk has a gigantic assortment of movement techniques, and every single one is very easy to start learning. The class is all about flying and it's ridiculously fun. I've only seen like 2 people who hadn't figured out flying as a lerk, and it was probably because nothing in the game really tells you the details about it. I helped them on to the path of righteousness, of course :)
Movement is a skill outlet, just like aiming is. Movement needs a high skill ceiling, just like aiming. You wouldn't want good players equal to bad players in aiming, so why do you want it for movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the skill cap for pointing and clicking at that little moving skulk on your screen and hitting all 10 or so bullets, isn't the same kind of skill cap as hitting spacebar constantly aiming up and down on walls and zigging back and forth.
One of them is learned in every fps, the other isn't.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell, i knew my blaspheming would bring down the wrath of god... Thank you for weighing in Cory. I think, now i could be wrong, but i think this is the first time a dev has explained the direction of the METHOD of wall jumping and what you want us to be able to do/what we should be using to do this. I have the mentality that i should stick my skulk onto a vertical surface which i clue into the biggest object i have, which is walls.
If the speed is can be maintained with little degradation and i have the ability to use props such as railings and mid size objects without it being to difficult to stick to the side of it instead of the top i might be happy.
The sounds queue was a cool idea imo and it having different sounds related to the success rate.
Which was bunnyhopping.
Instead they should give you an easy mechanic to use, that you're encouraged to use to greatly increase your mobility/versatility in combat.
The issue is eventually, bunnyhopping type movement becomes impossible to balance around, because players that can't do it suck, and players who can do it are too good, so changing skulks in any way makes bad players worse, or can make good players godlike. Whereas a simpler movement mechanic can be easily balanced around, because everyone's expected to be using it, or trying to use it well.
You can't balance bunnyhopping, so you can't have it in a game you want balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An unfair advantage <i>against your own team members?</i>
First off, skulks can do well enough without chained walljumping if they attack intelligently(although I guess, by definition of being bad then I that means bad players won't be doing as such). Get in, do some damage, get out again. Don't sacrifice yourself needlessly.
Stop calling this bunnyhopping, because it isn't. The way players react and track it is completely different. The way it causes a skulk to act in combat is different. How quickly the speed is gained is different. Stop calling it bunnyhopping.
What's wrong with bad players being bad and great players being able to project that somehow, why try and remove differentiation in skill? It makes for fantastic and interesting competition.
One of them is learned in every fps, the other isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your first problem. You aren't supposed to spam your space bar.
Basically your argument boils down to you can't do the skill based movement and you want the same payoff as those who can. So you simply dumb it down until it is acceptable for you to perform. You're arguing that the skill based movement takes too much skill. I'm not sure I can agree with skill based games taking too much skill.
Unfortunately others would believe there is no skill involved with that and it would need to be the ns1 lerk hitbox exploit where you need to repetitively glide up and downwards to bug out your hitbox and make it harder for marines to shoot at you.
Flying your lerk requires exactly as many buttons as walljumping.
The way you push the buttons is much more intuitive.
You're flapping the wings of the lerk and leaning to turn.
What is the skulk doing when I'm on the wall in my 0.02323232 second timing window and I look up by 23.2323 degrees? Where's the equivalency to "a bird flapping its wings"?
When UWE demos the game at PAX, things like this are important, because Skie isn't going to be sitting there trying the skulk movement and telling his friends if he liked NS2 or not. It's going to be some kid who reads webcomics and owns an XBox.
First off, skulks can do well enough without chained walljumping if they attack intelligently(although I guess, by definition of being bad then I that means bad players won't be doing as such). Get in, do some damage, get out again. Don't sacrifice yourself needlessly.
Stop calling this bunnyhopping, because it isn't. The way players react and track it is completely different. The way it causes a skulk to act in combat is different. How quickly the speed is gained is different. Stop calling it bunnyhopping.
What's wrong with bad players being bad and great players being able to project that somehow, why try and remove differentiation in skill? It makes for fantastic and interesting competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a long hallway, marines at one end, skulks at the other.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
Cries on forums
<b>"SKULK MOVEMENT TOO SLOW, MARINES OP"</b>
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums
<b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b>
Pretty sure that points out the biggest flaw in this wall hop dealio, that without wallhopping skulks are indeed bad vs marines, but with it they are capable of nearly always making it to the right target.
So yeah, the game is unbalanced to the new player and aliens are relatively bad vs marines, whereas the experienced player just eats marines like nobody's buisness. That's not balanced, that won't EVER be balanced.
Replies on forums
<b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what if the marines were quick enough to aim at him when he predictably ran toward walls to trigger his gimmick?
Replies on forums
<b>"WALLJUMP IS A BAD MECHANIC"</b>
...and here we are!
You're flapping the wings of the lerk and leaning to turn.
What is the skulk doing when I'm on the wall in my 0.02323232 second timing window and I look up by 23.2323 degrees? Where's the equivalency to "a bird flapping its wings"?
When UWE demos the game at PAX, things like this are important, because Skie isn't going to be sitting there trying the skulk movement and telling his friends if he liked NS2 or not. It's going to be some kid who reads webcomics and owns and XBox.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the "skill" part. You have to, you know, learn it.
disclaimer: it obviously needs work, but dumbing it down to the point where everyone can fully execute it in about 5 minutes, like lerk flying, kills competition.
Also this kid has probably never touched NS2 so most likely going to play like a total noob.
<!--quoteo(post=1917712:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have a long hallway, marines at one end, skulks at the other.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
Cries on forums
<b>"SKULK MOVEMENT TOO SLOW, MARINES OP"</b>
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums
<b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b>
Pretty sure that points out the biggest flaw in this wall hop dealio, that without wallhopping skulks are indeed bad vs marines, but with it they are capable of nearly always making it to the right target.
So yeah, the game is unbalanced to the new player and aliens are relatively bad vs marines, whereas the experienced player just eats marines like nobody's buisness. That's not balanced, that won't EVER be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the point... you can't just run down a hallway and expect to kill a marine, you will die. People expect to master a game right away out of the box, why? What fun is that? Do you not want to be able to master a technique such as skulk 'protruding prop/wall' jumping? It sure as hell makes it a lot more fun mastering the technique than just having nothing at all.
Basically your argument boils down to you can't do the skill based movement and you want the same payoff as those who can. So you simply dumb it down until it is acceptable for you to perform. You're arguing that the skill based movement takes too much skill. I'm not sure I can agree with skill based games taking too much skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*shrug* so what? i'll just script it and pee all over your "Skill based movement" because honestly i don't want to play a match of ns2 that requires hitting my spacebar every half second for an entire 6-7 minutes.
It's not that i can't do it, it's that it's obnoxious and shouldn't be.
disclaimer: it obviously needs work, but dumbing it down to the point where everyone can fully execute it in about 5 minutes, like lerk flying, kills competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think new players can fly like the best lerks in 5 minutes. At least not while also being effective in the game. That's the part Kama was talking about - performing under pressure, using movement mechanics but as a backdrop for other goals.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.
Cries on forums
<b>"SKULK MOVEMENT TOO SLOW, MARINES OP"</b>
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.
Replies on forums
<b>"SKULKS ARE FINE, L2PLAY"</b>
Pretty sure that points out the biggest flaw in this wall hop dealio, that without wallhopping skulks are indeed bad vs marines, but with it they are capable of nearly always making it to the right target.
So yeah, the game is unbalanced to the new player and aliens are relatively bad vs marines, whereas the experienced player just eats marines like nobody's buisness. That's not balanced, that won't EVER be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try simply replacing "skulk" with "marine" and "walljump" with "LMG/Shotgun."
Now you just concluded that aiming is impossible to balance because good aimers will be good while bad aimers will be bad.
They definitely can. There is no depth to lerk flying.
One un-skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, gets mowed down by marine bullets about 1/3rd of the way down the hallway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is what I mean by intelligent play if you don't want to rely on mechanical skill. <b>Don't run down a long hallway towards a bunch of marines.</b> Await in <i>ambushes</i>, go around for the <i>flank</i>. Attack <i>somewhere else.</i>
If the marines on the other end are as skilled as the skulks flying through with speed- directly, as you say -through a long hallway, the marines will win. It's still inadvisable to do so, and you're relying on the marines to make mistakes. Beating people who are worse than you doesn't make the game imbalanced, in fact it means quite the opposite.
One skilled skulk attempts to go down the hallway, bouncing from wall to wall with practiced techniques (or scripts) he's had /practiced for weeks. He makes it all the way down the hallway, bites a marine in the face because the marines weren't quick enough to aim at him, and kills a marine before scurrying off into a vent with low health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You reasoning is good, except for one point, the marines also trained for weeks and improved vastly their aim, so they also shoot the skilled skulk like the un-skilled marines shooted the un-skilled skulk. Since you're smart, I let you draw the conclusions.
It's not that i can't do it, it's that it's obnoxious and shouldn't be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go ahead and script it. It would be terrible. You would run slower than if you just ran along the ground like someone who bought the game 30 minutes ago.
Great idea. Now you're relying on your opponents failing to check for the most rudimentary skulk tactic (hiding). If you want to flank, that's great, but you still need to move fast. In fact, you need it more than on the main front because you spent time running through the flank. The fact that you're flanking doesn't instantly make you succeed unless, again, you're against the worst possible opponents.
The reason people want faster/more versatile movement is because it scales with player skill. Only in a server full of confused newbies can you get away with hiding in vents all day. It's not a skilled activity.
The mappers will have to adapt their maps a little bit, too.
IMHO saying that this mechanic is bad, because people are not able to figure it out themselves is just not a valid reason.
There are plenty of options to explain it to new players. May it be a scripted tutorial, a loading screen tip (including a picture of a wall, skulk and some direction arrows) or by just letting them watch other players do it.
It is not that hard to understand. Jump against a wall -> jump off the wall -> move faster.
I think everyone is able to see and understand this.
Yeah, the game could use maybe some hints on how to USE your flying to best effect, like telling you to consider the value of surprise, how flying into and out of a room quickly will probably mean you're perfectly safe because marines can't react that fast, as well as maybe telling you about the roost mechanic and how effective ambushing with it can be. But other than hints to think how your enemy will think, lerk is a pretty good class as far as skill goes. Honestly lerks do skulking better than skulks do, they're a really good mix of skill based attacking and ambushing potential.
That's the thing though, with lerks the effort goes into thinking how to PLAY the class, how to USE your abilities, not how to actually DO the movement.
Bunnyhopping is requring you to press three or four buttons to move forward, and the game is about who can move forward the best. Lerk is about giving you the ability to move forward very easily and move forward to all sorts of interesting and unexpected locations, and then challenging you to use that ability to best effect.
Skulks are an FPS where you have to manually operate every element of your gun, lerks are an FPS where that's done for you and so the focus is on how well you can out-tactics your opponent.
The reason people want faster/more versatile movement is because it scales with player skill. Only in a server full of confused newbies can you get away with hiding in vents all day. It's not a skilled activity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's completely incorrect. Running faster by holding "W" is not skill. All that does is close the gap between relatively good and bad players. That's not something you want in a competitive game.
But people are able to figure out all the other fundamental aspects of the game unassisted. Doesn't that make it sound like there might be a problem with the walljump?
<!--quoteo(post=1917733:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:57 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's completely incorrect. Running faster by holding "W" is not skill. All that does is close the gap between relatively good and bad players. That's not something you want in a competitive game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you're right. I was talking about holding W, not the plethora of movement mechanics we've been discussing. Keep up the good work!
No.
Agreed.... Some players do need assistance because they just aren't that great at learning or playing that type of video game, a person with higher skill of gaming obviously isn't going to need guides.
RL EXAMPLE MODE: Like some people are naturally good at riding a bike for the first time, some can't even ride a bike at all or it takes them 5000 times to get it right.
If the marines on the other end are as skilled as the skulks flying through with speed- directly, as you say -through a long hallway, the marines will win. It's still inadvisable to do so, and you're relying on the marines to make mistakes. Beating people who are worse than you doesn't make the game imbalanced, in fact it means quite the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but the part you're missing
Is the player who can wallhop just flings himself at the marines and that works, other players try that and can't get it to work.
Is the player who can wallhop just flings himself at the marines and that works, other players try that and can't get it to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other plays can learn to wallhop and then can be just as effective as the first, skilled, player.