I like it actually, it's skill based and very rewarding at that. Sure it may not be easy for new players to get the hang of, but neither is the TF1 rocket jump or medic conc jump. These are mechanics that players will WANT to learn and will actually give them a sense of achievement over time when they get noticeably better at the skulk.
Also let's not forget that you can play the skulk perfectly fine WITHOUT this mechanic as well, you can still hide in rooms, attack with teammates for greater effect or even sometimes pull off just attacking up with front using a bit of wall/ceiling. (Even more so when celerity is implemented)
In my experience with very low frame rates, trying to do this kind of thing with less than around 25 fps is pointless, as the input lag just won't pick up most of your jumps, or will perform them very late.
Because this also requires you to directly collide with objects, doing it with high latency is not feasible as the prediction will reset your position constantly. I know people don't like high ping players, or catering for them, but a game should at least be potentially playable under as many circumstances as possible. This skulk-jump is only possible under optimal conditions.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<b>There are a few ways to use this</b> Speed 7, walking skulk speed 7.x, jumping on the floor Speed 7.x-9, jumping from walls without good timing (no sound) Speed 9-10, jumping from walls with average timing (the skulk equivalent of a "meh" sound) Speed 10-11, jumping from walls with good timing (the skulk equivalent of a "ok" sound) speed 11-15, jumping from walls with perfect timing (the skulk equivalent of a "yay!" sound)
<b>Too fast speed gains, I think a cap of 12.5 on the speed for the skulk is needed for none celerity skulks</b> Leap + floor jumping ~ 16-26 Leap + wall jumping ~ speed 20-29
So all in all this timing adds a skill depth, while not being able to time it correctly still gives a slight speed boost. I see no problem with it, build 201 wall jumping is easy to get into and hard to master. This is supposed to be skill based movement right...
<i>I think it could definitely benefit from having the same bounce/recoil effect the skulk has on the floor when landing, on the walls as well. This would help as a visual aid to time it correctly, instead of having to rely on timing it from memory/experience. Along with the sound cue reward it already has, it would be a very nice speed gain system!</i>
I have to agree. Actually, when I fired up NS2 yesterday for the first time in many months to check out the news, pretty much my first reaction when getting into Skulk movement was "Holy jumpin' mother o' God in a side-car with chocolate jimmies and a lobster bib, there's friggin' walljump acceleration!". It's very hard to not notice how kicking off a wall gives you a speed boost, so in the end, you automatically want to use that to your advantage.
Nice Video, but you forget 1 way to Walljump and that is with Strafe jumps. Jump on a wall and Press A/S while jumping, brants you the same boost, is easyer to perform and needs les mouse movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1917448:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Mar 25 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jump on a wall and Press A/S while jumping, brants you the same boost, is easyer to perform and needs les mouse movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True if you want to start a wall run from a standing position or simply try to escape a shotgun-toting marine. Not true if you're already running and maybe want to zigzag through a corridor instead of sticking to the same wall all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1917359:date=:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do people remember how q1 bhop used to work?
you just have to hold down the jump key, there was no timing involved, as long as you had the jump key down, you will automatically jump as soon as you land, 100% perfect.
In terms of 'ease' of use that is probably the best way to implement it.
all the games after that where you had to hit the jump key manually as soon as you land just makes it harder and was the start of the whole mousewheel, or other spam jump macros.
so suggestion:
holding down jump key will make you auto jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Quake games have this until today. And I like this, because I hate losing momentum by timing jumps wrong; there are other things to do ;) It feels much more fluid an free.
<!--quoteo(post=1917359:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:55 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 25 2012, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Describe the skill in that. Plus do you really want skulks just hopping along the floor through corridors to be the norm? I like the current system because it synergises with the skulks ability to wall climb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. When the movement is based on hopping, you'll have to see hopping skulks, wether you have to time your jumps or not...you mean less skulks will be hopping because less people are able to do it..?
2. Are you asking to describe how movement is bound to skill in Quake games? ^^ Actually in Warsow for example you never have to let go of the jump key. It's based on the Quake 2 engine and has all of its momentum mechanics (rampjump, strafejump, bunnyhop, doublejump, weaponjump) + stuff like walljump....and you have seriously enough to learn even without pressing the space bar again to do the next jump. So talking about skill based movement with walljumps, the skill is to find the right walls and keeping momentum. Watch that:
Everything they do there is impossible to master. So yes, it is skillbased (too hard for my taste, but just wanted to show how timing jumps on the floor doesn't always add to skill-based movement/never does it for me).
Warsow is for free. Download it, join a Clan Arena server and see what I mean ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1917421:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 25 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like it actually, it's skill based and very rewarding at that. Sure it may not be easy for new players to get the hang of, but neither is the TF1 rocket jump or medic conc jump. These are mechanics that players will WANT to learn and will actually give them a sense of achievement over time when they get noticeably better at the skulk.
Also let's not forget that you can play the skulk perfectly fine WITHOUT this mechanic as well, you can still hide in rooms, attack with teammates for greater effect or even sometimes pull off just attacking up with front using a bit of wall/ceiling. (Even more so when celerity is implemented)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was actually thinking more or less the opposite.
It doesn't look fun to me, I don't see why I'd want to learn it other than to make the skulk playable, it's a chore more than anything.
And you really can't play the skulk perfectly fine without it, as either this would be incredibly overpowered, or the skulk would be incredibly weak without it, or it wouldn't be worth the effort.
I really don't see how this isn't bunnyhopping, because it is bunnyhopping, it doesn't do anything if you don't bunnyhop.
I also tried using this before watching the video, I didn't even have any idea that it was possible, it isn't at all intuitive that this is how you should play. Mostly I just kept getting stuck to walls all the time, and on the odd occasion I did get a speed increase, I didn't know why or how to make any use of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1917402:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:05 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. You can start accelerating a few rooms before if you see marines on the minimap, and unlike in bunnyhopping, you can maneuvre more than just a jump's height off the ground.
I guess the general consensus is that the timing is that makes the walljumping unintuitive. But as already mentioned, that's getting changes anyways.
Just as importantly, <b>what do you guys think of the idea of the angle restriction?</b> That is, that you can't jump to just any direction after hitting a wall, but your movement on the map has to have a certain momentum and direction. This makes you a bit more predictable, but there's a similar restriction in bunnyhopping - you can't just jump immediately 180 degrees into a different direction, you have to do a jump or two and do a curve on your path. The same you can do with the skulk.
We want this to be good, of course, but not bunnyhopping, so voice your opinions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I enjoy the curving function that needs to be done in order to do an effective walljump (great for those sharp corridor turns), it makes it fancy to use as a skill and it looks nice doing it, also it seems to make sense.
For me the biggest difficulty I have with walljumping is due to the wall walking mechanic. It's hard to know when you are "stuck" on the wall, sometimes I jump at a wall and then just slide down without grabbing on to it. You can't just be next to the wall and press jump like in warsow or other games with a walljumping mechanic, you need to be stuck on the wall first before jumping. Maybe if there was some sort of visual cue that showed when you had grabbed onto the wall it would be easier to time it.
How are players supposed to know about this super fast movement if they haven't read the forums?
It's like a hidden feature. Like someone said already, new players, and old ones like me!, are seeing some skulks flying through the maps. I look at my abilities: bite, leap, parasite...where's the special hyper speed ability? It's not there - how do I unlock it? OK not possible to unlock it....guys how do you do that thing with the flying skulk?? "It's all timing!" end result - some players figure out how to do it and others are not only left out but disadvantaged. I'm not saying players with high skill shouldn't be rewarded, only that everyone should have an equal chance to learn the skill.
There has to be an in game tutorial for this or most of us will have to keep going back and forth between in game and youtube videos trying to achieve these speeds.
I like that it's something you can learn; I just dislike that you first of all have to learn it exists in the first place!
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1917460:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:41 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Mar 25 2012, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me the biggest difficulty I have with walljumping is due to the wall walking mechanic. It's hard to know when you "stuck" on the wall, sometimes I jump at a wall and then just slide down without grabbing on to it. You can't just be next to the wall and press jump like in warsow or other games with a walljumping mechanic, you need to be stuck on the wall first before jumping. Maybe if there was some sort of visual cue that showed when you had grabbed onto the wall it would be easier to time it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason for this is twofold: 1. Wallwalking is not triggered until you bounce into something - this means that if you stand on the floor adjecent to a wall, you can jump up and down without getting sucked onto the wall (and wallwalking being a bit expensive, its good for everyones FPS too). 2. For .25s after a jump, wallwalking is also disabled for some reason.
This means that if you jump into a wall, and hit the wall inside those .25 seconds, your velocity into the wall will be zero and you will start to slide down. Once .25 sec has passed, your velocity into the wall is still zero, so you don't trigger wallwalking and keeps sliding down. You can get the wallwalk to trigger by either facing a little bit into the wall, or strafing into the wall, once the .25 sec has passed.
Getting the timing right there is difficult though.
I think the wallwalking-disabled-after-jump is not working as intended, actually. Can't see why its there, really. I'll see what Andi has to say.
I didn't know about this before <b><i>RIGHT NOW</i></b>, reading this thread, and even after reading this thread I can't get this damn thing to work. I can usually manage 1 walljump (out every 10 attempts) and most of those send me flying into some jutting decoration in the architecture, or the floor. This system is great for someone who can get it to work, but for everyone else it's a handicap.
<!--quoteo(post=1917477:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:09 AM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Mar 25 2012, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't know about this before <b><i>RIGHT NOW</i></b>, reading this thread, and even after reading this thread I can't get this damn thing to work. I can usually manage 1 walljump (out every 10 attempts) and most of those send me flying into some jutting decoration in the architecture, or the floor. This system is great for someone who can get it to work, but for everyone else it's a handicap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many replies like this does it take for something to change?
I think it would make more sense if you didn't need to be attached to wall in order to get the speed boost. Just jumping when next to the wall should propel you off it, regardless if you are "stuck" to it or not. I think that would make it more fluid.
<!--quoteo(post=1917478:date=Mar 26 2012, 02:14 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 26 2012, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many replies like this does it take for something to change?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I learned of it before seeing videos/reading forums. It's really quite similar to the pre 199 movement(also discovered via playtime) with some tweaks such as the limited angle and sound effects. As have other people I've noticed on the Australian servers.
The primary unintuitive thing about it I think is the angle, which can leave you puzzled as to why it works sometimes but not on others if you're trying to figure it out yourself. It also makes the movement overly predictable against marines who can actually aim(and in general just lets you do a lot less cool things with it.)
Can you tell us what the plans are for the timing changes Skie?
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1917332:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:24 AM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Mar 25 2012, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is bunnyhop 2.0, different but just as un-intuitive. People dont like the bunny hop because it wasnt something that made any logical sense, and you could not figure it out by just watching someone do it. This is almost the exact same thing. If you want a skill based movement it has to be intuitive, you should be able to watch what someone does in order to figure it out, or it needs to be described as a feature, not some hidden skill that you have to figure out. Youre not going to gain more players by putting new players at a disadvantage to those who know about hidden movement. Theres no tooltip you can write up thats going to explain this skill. Its just bunnyhop in a new pair of shoes.
Back to square one please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the wallwalking-disabled-after-jump is not working as intended, actually. Can't see why its there, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I though it was to avoid the stickiness zone when you jump off a wall, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make so much sense, because if you jump away from the wall there is no reason to attach again.
@Zuriki, well it's skilled based, so you're suppose to train at least a few hours to get it working. But the timing is a bit counter-intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1917402:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as importantly, <b>what do you guys think of the idea of the angle restriction?</b> That is, that you can't jump to just any direction after hitting a wall, but your movement on the map has to have a certain momentum and direction. This makes you a bit more predictable, but there's a similar restriction in bunnyhopping - you can't just jump immediately 180 degrees into a different direction, you have to do a jump or two and do a curve on your path. The same you can do with the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it should be based around the reflection angle, it's the most intuitive thing; everybody has a good feeling of how objects rebound on surfaces. It should be also decrease continuously up to a critical angle, instead of a binary thing (I'm not sure how it works now).
Bunny hopping in the HL games is so incredibly dumb. I can't imagine any developer wanting to put in script-friendly "skill based" movement. I'm also not sure why people think bunnyhop was good.
At least the skulk jump takes foresight and skill. You can't script it. You can't simply spam your jump to execute it. It could definitely use some explanation for newer players, but it is intuitive after you see one or two players do it.
This is why the mechanical skill of anything like this should not be the end goal. The point of putting advanced movement shouldn't be to keep my fingers busy. It should be to create more choices for players in combat (that happen to not be available to the most inexperienced players without some effort). Watch <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhaEoSFI-aI" target="_blank">this </a>and tell me which players are scripting! Can you do it? Does it matter at all?
When developers try to stop scripted movement you get really lame things that dirty the physics of the game (like the bhop prevention from counterstrike where you slow to a crawl because you accidentally pushed your spacebar again - same thing happens with marines in ns2 and it's sorta cheesy).
<!--quoteo(post=1917502:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:49 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why the mechanical skill of anything like this should not be the end goal. The point of putting advanced movement shouldn't be to keep my fingers busy. It should be to create more choices for players in combat (that happen to not be available to the most inexperienced players without some effort). Watch <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhaEoSFI-aI" target="_blank">this </a>and tell me which players are scripting! Can you do it? Does it matter at all?
When developers try to stop scripted movement you get really lame things that dirty the physics of the game (like the bhop prevention from counterstrike where you slow to a crawl because you accidentally pushed your spacebar again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When developers try to stop scripted movement, you get actual skill based movement.
Binding jump to mousewheel or creating a macro shouldn't entitle me to go twice as fast.
<!--quoteo(post=1917503:date=Mar 26 2012, 02:52 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 26 2012, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When developers try to stop scripted movement, you get actual skill based movement.
Binding jump to mousewheel or creating a macro shouldn't entitle me to go twice as fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1917500:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:44 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping in the HL games is so incredibly dumb. I can't imagine any developer wanting to put in script-friendly "skill based" movement. I'm also not sure why people think bunnyhop was good.
At least the skulk jump takes foresight and skill. You can't script it. You can't simply spam your jump to execute it. It could definitely use some explanation for newer players, but it is intuitive after you see one or two players do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill say this only once more for the ignorant. BHop used mouse wheel or a jump scpript to smooth out the crucial timing of your jump. That mechanic was only 1/16th of what it took to do a successful BHop and maintain speed. Stop with the misinformation just to make your silly point.
<!--quoteo(post=1917528:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:23 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ill say this only once more for the ignorant. BHop used mouse wheel or a jump scpript to smooth out the crucial timing of your jump. That mechanic was only 1/16th of what it took to do a successful BHop and maintain speed. Stop with the misinformation just to make your silly point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, the Warsow and Quake movies show that the smallest part is about timing - because in those games timing (of the spacebar) is not relevant.
I still play NS1 with mwheelup, mwheeldown +jump. Of course I do, because I want to bunnyhop ^^ Bhop was not out of the game, the timing was just way too harsh. There are, as stated often here, other things to do when gaining momentum.
Edit: I don't like scripts, though. Mwheel is a normal function, they could easily have been blocking it.
Edit2: make it like Quake (hold spacebar before jumping), then no one needs to script that, everybody can master it, all of us are happy.
I definitely feel that this system is too complicated and unintuitive. The speed boost based on timing does not make sense, it is an arbitrary game mechanic not unlike bunnyhopping. I could bunnyhop with the best of them in NS1 but this system just perplexes me. NS2 doesn't need anything like that, don't forget the whole reason bunnyhopping was removed in the first place. The fact that this system is all but impossible to explain without turning on cheats and revealing the speed/timing bars is proof enough of how it's flawed.
Any system you implement should be inherently simple with no need for special mechanics in place to regulate its behavior. I don't think there's any need for the timing element or the angles or whatever, just make it so you get a speed boost when you jump off a wall. Make it last for a short period of time before you have to do it again. Done. No fancy mechanics, no magic timing.
<!--quoteo(post=1917547:date=Mar 25 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 25 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any system you implement should be inherently simple with no need for special mechanics in place to regulate its behavior. I don't think there's any need for the timing element or the angles or whatever, just make it so you get a speed boost when you jump off a wall. Make it last for a short period of time before you have to do it again. Done. No fancy mechanics, no magic timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then make it so walljumping isn't the only mechanic for hive 1 skulks, since it's so predictable and limited!
Comments
Also let's not forget that you can play the skulk perfectly fine WITHOUT this mechanic as well, you can still hide in rooms, attack with teammates for greater effect or even sometimes pull off just attacking up with front using a bit of wall/ceiling. (Even more so when celerity is implemented)
Because this also requires you to directly collide with objects, doing it with high latency is not feasible as the prediction will reset your position constantly. I know people don't like high ping players, or catering for them, but a game should at least be potentially playable under as many circumstances as possible. This skulk-jump is only possible under optimal conditions.
Speed 7, walking skulk
speed 7.x, jumping on the floor
Speed 7.x-9, jumping from walls without good timing (no sound)
Speed 9-10, jumping from walls with average timing (the skulk equivalent of a "meh" sound)
Speed 10-11, jumping from walls with good timing (the skulk equivalent of a "ok" sound)
speed 11-15, jumping from walls with perfect timing (the skulk equivalent of a "yay!" sound)
<b>Too fast speed gains, I think a cap of 12.5 on the speed for the skulk is needed for none celerity skulks</b>
Leap + floor jumping ~ 16-26
Leap + wall jumping ~ speed 20-29
So all in all this timing adds a skill depth, while not being able to time it correctly still gives a slight speed boost. I see no problem with it, build 201 wall jumping is easy to get into and hard to master. This is supposed to be skill based movement right...
<i>I think it could definitely benefit from having the same bounce/recoil effect the skulk has on the floor when landing, on the walls as well. This would help as a visual aid to time it correctly, instead of having to rely on timing it from memory/experience. Along with the sound cue reward it already has, it would be a very nice speed gain system!</i>
Jump on a wall and Press A/S while jumping, brants you the same boost, is easyer to perform and needs les mouse movement.
True if you want to start a wall run from a standing position or simply try to escape a shotgun-toting marine. Not true if you're already running and maybe want to zigzag through a corridor instead of sticking to the same wall all the time.
you just have to hold down the jump key, there was no timing involved, as long as you had the jump key down, you will automatically jump as soon as you land, 100% perfect.
In terms of 'ease' of use that is probably the best way to implement it.
all the games after that where you had to hit the jump key manually as soon as you land just makes it harder and was the start of the whole mousewheel, or other spam jump macros.
so suggestion:
holding down jump key will make you auto jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Quake games have this until today. And I like this, because I hate losing momentum by timing jumps wrong; there are other things to do ;)
It feels much more fluid an free.
<!--quoteo(post=1917359:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:55 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 25 2012, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Describe the skill in that. Plus do you really want skulks just hopping along the floor through corridors to be the norm? I like the current system because it synergises with the skulks ability to wall climb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. When the movement is based on hopping, you'll have to see hopping skulks, wether you have to time your jumps or not...you mean less skulks will be hopping because less people are able to do it..?
2. Are you asking to describe how movement is bound to skill in Quake games? ^^
Actually in Warsow for example you never have to let go of the jump key. It's based on the Quake 2 engine and has all of its momentum mechanics (rampjump, strafejump, bunnyhop, doublejump, weaponjump) + stuff like walljump....and you have seriously enough to learn even without pressing the space bar again to do the next jump. So talking about skill based movement with walljumps, the skill is to find the right walls and keeping momentum. Watch that:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3WjOIgivCU"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3WjOIgivCU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Everything they do there is impossible to master. So yes, it is skillbased (too hard for my taste, but just wanted to show how timing jumps on the floor doesn't always add to skill-based movement/never does it for me).
Warsow is for free. Download it, join a Clan Arena server and see what I mean ^^
Edit: Video implementation
Also let's not forget that you can play the skulk perfectly fine WITHOUT this mechanic as well, you can still hide in rooms, attack with teammates for greater effect or even sometimes pull off just attacking up with front using a bit of wall/ceiling. (Even more so when celerity is implemented)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was actually thinking more or less the opposite.
It doesn't look fun to me, I don't see why I'd want to learn it other than to make the skulk playable, it's a chore more than anything.
And you really can't play the skulk perfectly fine without it, as either this would be incredibly overpowered, or the skulk would be incredibly weak without it, or it wouldn't be worth the effort.
I really don't see how this isn't bunnyhopping, because it is bunnyhopping, it doesn't do anything if you don't bunnyhop.
I also tried using this before watching the video, I didn't even have any idea that it was possible, it isn't at all intuitive that this is how you should play. Mostly I just kept getting stuck to walls all the time, and on the odd occasion I did get a speed increase, I didn't know why or how to make any use of it.
I guess the general consensus is that the timing is that makes the walljumping unintuitive. But as already mentioned, that's getting changes anyways.
Just as importantly, <b>what do you guys think of the idea of the angle restriction?</b> That is, that you can't jump to just any direction after hitting a wall, but your movement on the map has to have a certain momentum and direction. This makes you a bit more predictable, but there's a similar restriction in bunnyhopping - you can't just jump immediately 180 degrees into a different direction, you have to do a jump or two and do a curve on your path. The same you can do with the skulk.
We want this to be good, of course, but not bunnyhopping, so voice your opinions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I enjoy the curving function that needs to be done in order to do an effective walljump (great for those sharp corridor turns), it makes it fancy to use as a skill and it looks nice doing it, also it seems to make sense.
It's like a hidden feature. Like someone said already, new players, and old ones like me!, are seeing some skulks flying through the maps. I look at my abilities: bite, leap, parasite...where's the special hyper speed ability? It's not there - how do I unlock it? OK not possible to unlock it....guys how do you do that thing with the flying skulk?? "It's all timing!" end result - some players figure out how to do it and others are not only left out but disadvantaged. I'm not saying players with high skill shouldn't be rewarded, only that everyone should have an equal chance to learn the skill.
There has to be an in game tutorial for this or most of us will have to keep going back and forth between in game and youtube videos trying to achieve these speeds.
I like that it's something you can learn; I just dislike that you first of all have to learn it exists in the first place!
*2 hours into the game*
"Hey did you know there's this integral mechanic to the basic alien class you need to master in order to be competitive?"
*FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF*
"Hey did you know there's this integral mechanic to the basic alien class you need to master in order to be competitive?"
*FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fine, a guide you have to read in order to find servers :P
^ J/K
The reason for this is twofold:
1. Wallwalking is not triggered until you bounce into something - this means that if you stand on the floor adjecent to a wall, you can jump up and down without getting sucked onto the wall (and wallwalking being a bit expensive, its good for everyones FPS too).
2. For .25s after a jump, wallwalking is also disabled for some reason.
This means that if you jump into a wall, and hit the wall inside those .25 seconds, your velocity into the wall will be zero and you will start to slide down. Once .25 sec has passed, your velocity into the wall is still zero, so you don't trigger wallwalking and keeps sliding down. You can get the wallwalk to trigger by either facing a little bit into the wall, or strafing into the wall, once the .25 sec has passed.
Getting the timing right there is difficult though.
I think the wallwalking-disabled-after-jump is not working as intended, actually. Can't see why its there, really. I'll see what Andi has to say.
How many replies like this does it take for something to change?
I learned of it before seeing videos/reading forums. It's really quite similar to the pre 199 movement(also discovered via playtime) with some tweaks such as the limited angle and sound effects. As have other people I've noticed on the Australian servers.
The primary unintuitive thing about it I think is the angle, which can leave you puzzled as to why it works sometimes but not on others if you're trying to figure it out yourself. It also makes the movement overly predictable against marines who can actually aim(and in general just lets you do a lot less cool things with it.)
Can you tell us what the plans are for the timing changes Skie?
Back to square one please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree with this.
I though it was to avoid the stickiness zone when you jump off a wall, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make so much sense, because if you jump away from the wall there is no reason to attach again.
@Zuriki, well it's skilled based, so you're suppose to train at least a few hours to get it working. But the timing is a bit counter-intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1917402:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as importantly, <b>what do you guys think of the idea of the angle restriction?</b> That is, that you can't jump to just any direction after hitting a wall, but your movement on the map has to have a certain momentum and direction. This makes you a bit more predictable, but there's a similar restriction in bunnyhopping - you can't just jump immediately 180 degrees into a different direction, you have to do a jump or two and do a curve on your path. The same you can do with the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it should be based around the reflection angle, it's the most intuitive thing; everybody has a good feeling of how objects rebound on surfaces. It should be also decrease continuously up to a critical angle, instead of a binary thing (I'm not sure how it works now).
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +3jumps "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump"
alias -3jumps "-jump"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Now you're pro at bunny hopping!
At least the skulk jump takes foresight and skill. You can't script it. You can't simply spam your jump to execute it. It could definitely use some explanation for newer players, but it is intuitive after you see one or two players do it.
When developers try to stop scripted movement you get really lame things that dirty the physics of the game (like the bhop prevention from counterstrike where you slow to a crawl because you accidentally pushed your spacebar again - same thing happens with marines in ns2 and it's sorta cheesy).
When developers try to stop scripted movement you get really lame things that dirty the physics of the game (like the bhop prevention from counterstrike where you slow to a crawl because you accidentally pushed your spacebar again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When developers try to stop scripted movement, you get actual skill based movement.
Binding jump to mousewheel or creating a macro shouldn't entitle me to go twice as fast.
Binding jump to mousewheel or creating a macro shouldn't entitle me to go twice as fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +3jumps "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump"
alias -3jumps "-jump"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Now you're pro at bunny hopping!
At least the skulk jump takes foresight and skill. You can't script it. You can't simply spam your jump to execute it. It could definitely use some explanation for newer players, but it is intuitive after you see one or two players do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill say this only once more for the ignorant. BHop used mouse wheel or a jump scpript to smooth out the crucial timing of your jump. That mechanic was only 1/16th of what it took to do a successful BHop and maintain speed. Stop with the misinformation just to make your silly point.
True, the Warsow and Quake movies show that the smallest part is about timing - because in those games timing (of the spacebar) is not relevant.
I still play NS1 with mwheelup, mwheeldown +jump. Of course I do, because I want to bunnyhop ^^ Bhop was not out of the game, the timing was just way too harsh. There are, as stated often here, other things to do when gaining momentum.
Edit: I don't like scripts, though. Mwheel is a normal function, they could easily have been blocking it.
Edit2: make it like Quake (hold spacebar before jumping), then no one needs to script that, everybody can master it, all of us are happy.
Any system you implement should be inherently simple with no need for special mechanics in place to regulate its behavior. I don't think there's any need for the timing element or the angles or whatever, just make it so you get a speed boost when you jump off a wall. Make it last for a short period of time before you have to do it again. Done. No fancy mechanics, no magic timing.
Then make it so walljumping isn't the only mechanic for hive 1 skulks, since it's so predictable and limited!