ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1918442:date=Mar 27 2012, 04:45 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wasnt all this change in skulk movement directly from implementing air control? shouldnt more air control just fix that scenario/problem you described? if the marine moves out of the way at the last second, the "skilled" skulk should be able to to have some air control to allow for that fast reflex adjustment.
maybe if you tie <b>more air control</b> to <b>fast skulk speed</b>, you would have an even more rewarding system that closes that gap?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In theory, with a ping of 0, perhaps it would be possible. In reality, with latency, it is too easy for marines to sidestep at the last moment. Marines are very mobile, which is the issue. Even once you have closed the distance, skilled marines are still very deadly.
Perhaps allowing skulks to keep their momentum better after they land (despite knocking into things/turning sharply) would help fix this, but that would risk making skulks too good.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1918497:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:18 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 27 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one said you need to stop bhopping once you reach teh marine :p
my biggest issue is accidently bumping into them, my speed stops, then they can jump away all they want and i can't catch up to them again :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Continuing the walljumping mechanic around the marine is a certain death too.
This is against the most killed marines, every milisecond before their death is another chance for them to kill you. You need to close the distance and kill them as fast as possible, preferably strafing around their feet (making moving difficult for them, which throws off their aim slightly).
<!--quoteo(post=1918511:date=Mar 27 2012, 08:03 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Continuing the walljumping mechanic around the marine is a certain death too.
This is against the most killed marines, every milisecond before their death is another chance for them to kill you. You need to close the distance and kill them as fast as possible, preferably strafing around their feet (making moving difficult for them, which throws off their aim slightly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think walljumping is intended to be an in combat movement mechanic. The impression I got is that it is meant to close the gap quicker (nearly immediately if you're good at it) and to disengage faster. A good wall jumper basically has leap in tier 1. And a really good wall jumper has a movement system which is better than leap in tier 1.
I don't think anyone is particularly good at wall jumping currently. But as people play, they will get better.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1918562:date=Mar 27 2012, 03:20 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 27 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think walljumping is intended to be an in combat movement mechanic. The impression I got is that it is meant to close the gap quicker (nearly immediately if you're good at it) and to disengage faster. A good wall jumper basically has leap in tier 1. And a really good wall jumper has a movement system which is better than leap in tier 1.
I don't think anyone is particularly good at wall jumping currently. But as people play, they will get better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't appear to have any intent at all, other than being 'a movement mechanic', which is the problem. It needs to solve the skilled marine/skulk imbalance, not simply be a 'fun' mechanic. It needs to allow skulks to improve and rival skilled marines (in t1 at least).
<!--quoteo(post=1918562:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:20 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 27 2012, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think walljumping is intended to be an in combat movement mechanic. The impression I got is that it is meant to close the gap quicker (nearly immediately if you're good at it) and to disengage faster. A good wall jumper basically has leap in tier 1. And a really good wall jumper has a movement system which is better than leap in tier 1.
I don't think anyone is particularly good at wall jumping currently. But as people play, they will get better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly yeah, walljumping is not an IN combat mechanic. The only issues with skulk combat are late game vs shotguns/flamethrowers, which is not a walljump issue.
And people complaining about getting to marines not near a wall, what? I bounce around like a little idiot in circles and get to EVERY marine perfectly fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1918573:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:36 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't appear to have any intent at all, other than being 'a movement mechanic', which is the problem. It needs to solve the skilled marine/skulk imbalance, not simply be a 'fun' mechanic. It needs to allow skulks to improve and rival skilled marines (in t1 at least).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it doesn't.
Because that's exactly what i see it doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1918462:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:27 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you blind? After the wall jump is complete what do you think skie is doing to maintain speed? Oh, ya, he is kangaroo hopping... stop with the immersion breaking whine. You know what immersion gets us? Stupid game breaking power nodes that make pretty lights flicker but ruin gameplay. GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bouncy skulks are bouncy skulks, i like it. You're just mad, walls make me go fast!
(Also, Generally immersion comes hand in hand with good gameplay mechanics, your argument is that "Power nodes" for immersion break gameplay, but they also break immersion as well since they aren't clearly defined, nobody really knows if they should bother attacking them and they don't separate the areas very well since aliens mostly just ignore them.
Your beef is with a poorly implemented game mechanic, not with an "Addition for immersion for the casual noobs that ruins the game". Power nodes will eventually be better, the lights turning on/off is actually a really really interesting element to gameplay, yeah i said it GAMEPLAY not immersion. While playing ns2 you get the feeling that aliens like dark places, marines like light places, it's a war between the two.
People complaining about the lights going off either aren't making this connection, or are trying to ignore the great elements to hiding, stalking and flanking it provides for the aliens.
I wish there was some generic response to every single "LOL IMMERSION RUINING GAME" or such response there ever has been.
Oh wait there is one.
<b>No, stop stating your opinions as a fact, you're ignoring the valuable gameplay elements at a flawed attempt to single out immersion as an obtrusive element of the game based on a nostalgic and biased concept of what you've seen in the past. Your statements are stifling improvement to the ideas mentioned, or flat out rejecting more interesting mechanics on a copy/pasted argument of balance, skill requirements and rehashed arguments. </b>
<!--quoteo(post=1918573:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:36 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't appear to have any intent at all, other than being 'a movement mechanic', which is the problem. It needs to solve the skilled marine/skulk imbalance, not simply be a 'fun' mechanic. It needs to allow skulks to improve and rival skilled marines (in t1 at least).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does exactly that.
I look at it like this:
1)Skulk opening in melee > marine 2)Marine opening at range > skulk
Now that area in between is the gray area. If skulks are very good at wall jumping, they can get closer and closer to situation 1 simply out of shear speed. Alternatively, they can use ambush tactics to achieve situation 1. The marine obviously wants situation 2.
So if you have a good marine (shooter) and a good skulk (mover), you have a simple shooting vs movement battle. If the skulk manages to close the gap without taking much fire, he will usually kill the marine. If the marine can predict and adjust for the skulk's jukes, then the marine will usually kill the skulk.
If your problem is that the wall jumping isn't good enough, then you simply increase the benefit from wall jumping (ie speed). Personally, I think the wall jumping needs to be played out more before anyone can conclude that it's not good enough. It's been out of a couple days. Marines have been learning how to aim for months. I think that's where the skill discrepancy comes from.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1918574:date=Mar 27 2012, 03:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 27 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Prove it doesn't.
Because that's exactly what i see it doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps in public games, where the fighting is usually a mess (due to more players and lower skill).
The issue is difficult for the majority to see because of two things:
1) It only becomes apparently in organised matches (you have a better idea where the skulks are coming from so are more likely to see them as soon as they are visible).
2) Against very highly skilled marines (of which there are only a handful in NS2 atm).
While it might not be a common problem right now, this will be incredibly important if NS2 is to grow into a popular competitive game. Skulks need the ability to increase their potential inline with marines.
At the moment the only way to counter highly skilled marines is to essentially kill them, then repeatedly target them while they are traveling back to the front line. With the aim of keeping them away from the front line where the attacks are expected and there is team support, which is where they are strongest. This is vastly more demanding than marines simply playing normally and practicing aiming/jumping.
so assuming momentum gains from the ground are a no/go .... what is wrong with this model?
jump from wall/prop adds to bonus momentum bonus momentum declines as some fixed rate while in the air or running on the ground jump from ground stops bonus momentum decline for a short period. air control allows for curved jump movement while jumping (allows X degree turn per some fixed game tick) you might have some conditions where bonus momentum is immediately zeroed, but what if we didnt?
for a dead stopped skulk on the ground in melee, how about an energy based movement to give a slight speed boost to allow that final close to the marine. ( something for tier1)
<!--quoteo(post=1918574:date=Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bouncy skulks are bouncy skulks, i like it. You're just mad, walls make me go fast!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know what you are getting at here. I like BHop just not having to use walls to do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1918574:date=Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Also, Generally immersion comes hand in hand with good gameplay mechanics, your argument is that "Power nodes" for immersion break gameplay, but they also break immersion as well since they aren't clearly defined, nobody really knows if they should bother attacking them and they don't separate the areas very well since aliens mostly just ignore them.
Your beef is with a poorly implemented game mechanic, not with an "Addition for immersion for the casual noobs that ruins the game". Power nodes will eventually be better, the lights turning on/off is actually a really really interesting element to gameplay, yeah i said it GAMEPLAY not immersion. While playing ns2 you get the feeling that aliens like dark places, marines like light places, it's a war between the two.
People complaining about the lights going off either aren't making this connection, or are trying to ignore the great elements to hiding, stalking and flanking it provides for the aliens.
I wish there was some generic response to every single "LOL IMMERSION RUINING GAME" or such response there ever has been.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My "Beef" is with the power node concept period. My OPINION is that because of the immersion element of destroying a node it goes dark and then spots of red is the reason power nodes are still here. Not because they add anything to the game other than an annoyance. Turn it into a light switch that has nothing to do with power and call it a day. Forcing the marines to use their limited view flash lights does present interesting game play since it gives the advantage when properly used to the aliens.
You are wrong though in the fact that "power off" means alien controlled. DI does that and has been stated by the devs. This is why power nodes now have to be built BEFORE they are destroyed. If it is as you say the aliens would be able to sweep the map causing darkness all over. This is not the case and Flayra has stated that he likes the "oh sh**" moment of the lights going out at an inopportune time (which is immersion). It is a gimmick and one that is tied to as you said for me "A poorly implemented game mechanic".
I wish there was some generic response for all those "I love Immersion and Reality over gameplay" even though i am playing a sci-fi game with aliens in it and i have no clue what reality is.
<!--quoteo(post=1918574:date=Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh wait there is one.
<b>No, stop stating your opinions as a fact, you're ignoring the valuable gameplay elements at a flawed attempt to single out immersion as an obtrusive element of the game based on a nostalgic and biased concept of what you've seen in the past. Your statements are stifling improvement to the ideas mentioned, or flat out rejecting more interesting mechanics on a copy/pasted argument of balance, skill requirements and rehashed arguments. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My opinion is not fact and isnt being passed off as fact. I am not ignoring gameplay elements but sharing my opinion on a subject i dont have time to tell you everything i hate about it OR if i dont mention something i can do WITHOUT IT. Your attitude of "Change everything, i dont care" is what is ruining this game. What i find fun is not what you find fun. We seem to have different opinions on this which to you means im wrong and you are right? Pompous much? You sitting there with your 2012 made account where i have no idea who you are or what you stand for. Ya, GG. Take random shots at me, but at least i SPEAK MY MIND and always have the improvement of this game at heart. I have donated my share to include 7 copies of NS, 2 SE copies, and donated through the constie program a lot, but all this doesnt give my opinion greater weight then your but shows i am doing something about my opinion by supporting that which i love and will fight for as long as i can to make this game great.
So far the only 3 things in the game i have fought for and lost are: Bunnyhopping (which can be slightly argued now with what wall hopping is turning into), Alien Khamm, and Power nodes, but v1.0 isnt out yet.
So get off my back about repeated arguments. This is a new thread which requires rehashing of old ideas, but it seems you know my post well. Thanks for paying attention.
After playing skulk for 2 days I really have to say that I love it.
I had problems at first, like hitting jump to soon or jumping into edges of a wall, but when you get the feeling and know what the good surfaces are, its really awesome. Some times I just play with my prey and fly around them like a rocket, while they waste their ammo.
Also a good tactic when fighting in close combat is to back off a little, running into another room, and just wall jump back in after 2-3 seconds. Most marines start to reload or look around, when you disappear into another room, so they wont expect it.
What peeves me are the 10245938 surfaces I don't stick on. Like those pillars in sub access - I can run directly into them and start climbing up - no white bar. o_o ROAR!
<!--quoteo(post=1918719:date=Mar 28 2012, 07:22 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 28 2012, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What peeves me are the 10245938 surfaces I don't stick on. Like those pillars in sub access - I can run directly into them and start climbing up - no white bar. o_o ROAR!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, i think this is one of the flaws of the timing system actually. As far as i am aware, the spring mechanic (white bar) starts the moment you 'stick' to a wall, prop or whatever. This means that in order to do a proper wall jump off a higher location you need to be able to jump up there.
So climbing up a pillar will trigger the white bar instantly, and as you climb the white bar will dissipate and your eventual wall jump from higher up the pillar will be weak. To really do a wall jump up here, you would need to jump off one of the pillars onto the other to activate the white bar on landing and then do a subsequent jump off the 2nd pillar which doesn't always work because of the angle restriction thing.
it's a bug due to not sticking to the wall if you're jumping and have upward momentum. sticking to the wall sucks right now because if you jump too soon you're sliding down the wall when you stick and it takes a noticeable amount of time before your downward momentum stops, and if you jump too early you don't stick at all. also, sometimes it feels like you have negative energy stored, where it takes longer to accelerate (especially in the air) if you've landed on a surface that stops your momentum.
Er, I think one of the more common complaints is that it is exactly like NS1 only with walls thrown in for some reason.
It's bunnyhopping, you just have to hit a wall in between bunnyhops. If anything it's worse than bunnyhopping because at least bunnyhopping is easier to figure out, if incredibly tedious to get the timing right.
<!--quoteo(post=1919654:date=Mar 30 2012, 01:25 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 30 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->System needs to be complex<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very often the beginning of a bad design. Also why should basic tasks required to play the skulk be "incredible feats for esports"? People don't clap and cheer when Nestea makes a drone in SC2 (well, nobody outside of Artosis).
Making an engineered product isn't about wrapping it in dozens of layers of nonsense to show off when you manage to 'get it right.'
It isn't that complex. You don't need perfect timing to gain the speed boost, everyone will improve sooner or later. And that is the fun thing about it imo.
Performance is still a big part of why people can't do it, just like the "you have to stick to wall first"-thing. Without these problems, people would always get the speed boost when wall jumping, but it would be rewarded if you got the timing right. The speed increase from bad executed and good executed jumps doesn't even have to differ that much.
I can think of a lot of scenarios where you actually want to execute a bad jump to slow you down a bit, because you want to jump on a surface that is already really close, or to stay unpredictable.
Someone said it would be like the power meter when hitting the ball in a golf video game. That just means you gain more control over your movement, not that it is super hard to do.
Also, the "it's hard to figure out" thing just isn't a problem when more people are able to do it (see problems above). Lets see it from the pov of a new player:
[new player] runs to marine -> dies [new player] runs to marine -> dies [new player] runs to marine -> dies [new player] jumps to the marine -> lands one bite [new player] sees another skulk jumping off the wall and kill the marine [new player] tries jumping on and off a wall when approaching the marine -> hears a new skulk sound and possibly kills the marine, because the marine missed [new player] figures that zigzagging walls is much more effective than running straight to the rines
There will be an "ahhh, cool!"- moment for the new player.
People always complain about games being too easy these days, but when there is a system that encourages you to improve yourself, people don't want it either.
The new wall jumping is in for 1 build, there will be plenty more to smoothen things out.
edit: just tested skulk jump in 202, and it became much easier, so everyone try it! Jump onto a wall -> jump again.
Feels like its now harder to build up any momentum with this new change - maybe its being used to the last one but I constantly find myself sticking to walls without jumping right away and losing a lot of speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1919921:date=Mar 30 2012, 08:32 PM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Mar 30 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feels like its now harder to build up any momentum with this new change - maybe its being used to the last one but I constantly find myself sticking to walls without jumping right away and losing a lot of speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They limited it a lot. I was topping out at 11-12 typically after 8 or 10 wall jumps in a row. It typically took around 5 jumps to get up to even 10 speed.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
the problem is currently i had not enough time available (due to pax and working on ui) for working on the skulk movement, but i will do this now on the weekend and i have some ideas which should make the wall jumping more accessible to new players, and also more challenging / rewarding to people who master it. despite the wall jumping there are a few other issues i want to address with his general movement to make it less "clumsy".
I really like one of the version of walljump where there WAS a timing involved, but the timing was towards the 1-2 second mark, meaning you can actuall run up/down a wall (usually up) and keep that wall jump speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1920089:date=Mar 31 2012, 07:58 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 31 2012, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like one of the version of walljump where there WAS a timing involved, but the timing was towards the 1-2 second mark, meaning you can actuall run up/down a wall (usually up) and keep that wall jump speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
Also there is no reason that say jumping off the large wall in crevice high up should give you less momentum than just bouncing off a all right quickly. And as far as marines outrunning skulks.... if in physicality we compared a skulk to a say a meaty pitbull. I don't think many heavily armored equipped marines would have the running advantage on these four legged creatures. I can see some reasons it is the way it is now especially how OP aliens are but the skulk really does need mechanics that feel natural and intuitive. The easiest solution I see is a hive 1 leap. I am glad to see Schimmel/Sewlek plans to work more on this.
Also there is no reason that say jumping off the large wall in crevice high up should give you less momentum than just bouncing off a all right quickly. And as far as marines outrunning skulks.... if in physicality we compared a skulk to a say a meaty pitbull. I don't think many heavily armored equipped marines would have the running advantage on these four legged creatures. I can see some reasons it is the way it is now especially how OP aliens are but the skulk really does need mechanics that feel natural and intuitive. The easiest solution I see is a hive 1 leap. I am glad to see Schimmel/Sewlek plans to work more on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
intuitive is the key word. and the old timing was not intuitive. i liked it myself more because it prevent several exploits :) but for a new player, the timings we had in 201 were just hidden and not understandable. a mechanic that requires you to read to forums to figure out how it works is just bad design, but it made the jump timing be a bit smarter. so it breaks down to be a simple trade off, where the endresult can be the same. there are a lot of different opinions about this, and it's possible that it changes again. but for now we try the "the faster you jump, the more boost you get" timing, and i hope that it works out because it's much easier to understand
It should be much easier to grasp now, but the main problem imo is that it really shows all the bugs with wall walking (i.e. not attaching or getting stuck). If the walls need to be the main component, then wall walking needs to be perfect.
Not really related but I find the skulk movement from a marine perspective to be sometimes very discontinuous, the model flip around, the skulk move in every direction, it can get very erratic.
<!--quoteo(post=1920086:date=Mar 31 2012, 08:55 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 31 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem is currently i had not enough time available (due to pax and working on ui) for working on the skulk movement, but i will do this now on the weekend and i have some ideas which should make the wall jumping more accessible to new players, and also more challenging / rewarding to people who master it. despite the wall jumping there are a few other issues i want to address with his general movement to make it less "clumsy".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I do have just one thing I'd like to see done with the timing.
Previously, the "timing" involved hitting a small window somewhere ~half a second after you landed before you jump off a wall again. That was too complex for a lot of people and made it frustrating for others.
Currently, the "timing" just requires you to jump ASAP.
How about a "timing" that gives you a 0.5s leeway to jump and then starts diminishing your gain from the walljump? Right now, if I wrote a macro to spam space every 0.02 seconds when I held space, I would be better at wall jumping than any human. If you put in this 0.5s leeway then it not only gives players a clear cut time period (instead of LOLASAP) but it allows players to walljump effectively even with higher ping.
<!--quoteo(post=1920135:date=Mar 31 2012, 11:14 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Mar 31 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not really related but I find the skulk movement from a marine perspective to be sometimes very discontinuous, the model flip around, the skulk move in every direction, it can get very erratic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Air control. 100% air control at that. I really, really hate air control for the reasons Yuuki listed.
Comments
maybe if you tie <b>more air control</b> to <b>fast skulk speed</b>, you would have an even more rewarding system that closes that gap?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In theory, with a ping of 0, perhaps it would be possible. In reality, with latency, it is too easy for marines to sidestep at the last moment. Marines are very mobile, which is the issue. Even once you have closed the distance, skilled marines are still very deadly.
Perhaps allowing skulks to keep their momentum better after they land (despite knocking into things/turning sharply) would help fix this, but that would risk making skulks too good.
my biggest issue is accidently bumping into them, my speed stops, then they can jump away all they want and i can't catch up to them again :(
my biggest issue is accidently bumping into them, my speed stops, then they can jump away all they want and i can't catch up to them again :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Continuing the walljumping mechanic around the marine is a certain death too.
This is against the most killed marines, every milisecond before their death is another chance for them to kill you. You need to close the distance and kill them as fast as possible, preferably strafing around their feet (making moving difficult for them, which throws off their aim slightly).
This is against the most killed marines, every milisecond before their death is another chance for them to kill you. You need to close the distance and kill them as fast as possible, preferably strafing around their feet (making moving difficult for them, which throws off their aim slightly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think walljumping is intended to be an in combat movement mechanic. The impression I got is that it is meant to close the gap quicker (nearly immediately if you're good at it) and to disengage faster. A good wall jumper basically has leap in tier 1. And a really good wall jumper has a movement system which is better than leap in tier 1.
I don't think anyone is particularly good at wall jumping currently. But as people play, they will get better.
I don't think anyone is particularly good at wall jumping currently. But as people play, they will get better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't appear to have any intent at all, other than being 'a movement mechanic', which is the problem. It needs to solve the skilled marine/skulk imbalance, not simply be a 'fun' mechanic. It needs to allow skulks to improve and rival skilled marines (in t1 at least).
I don't think anyone is particularly good at wall jumping currently. But as people play, they will get better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly yeah, walljumping is not an IN combat mechanic. The only issues with skulk combat are late game vs shotguns/flamethrowers, which is not a walljump issue.
And people complaining about getting to marines not near a wall, what? I bounce around like a little idiot in circles and get to EVERY marine perfectly fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1918573:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:36 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't appear to have any intent at all, other than being 'a movement mechanic', which is the problem. It needs to solve the skilled marine/skulk imbalance, not simply be a 'fun' mechanic. It needs to allow skulks to improve and rival skilled marines (in t1 at least).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it doesn't.
Because that's exactly what i see it doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1918462:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:27 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you blind? After the wall jump is complete what do you think skie is doing to maintain speed? Oh, ya, he is kangaroo hopping... stop with the immersion breaking whine. You know what immersion gets us? Stupid game breaking power nodes that make pretty lights flicker but ruin gameplay. GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bouncy skulks are bouncy skulks, i like it. You're just mad, walls make me go fast!
(Also, Generally immersion comes hand in hand with good gameplay mechanics, your argument is that "Power nodes" for immersion break gameplay, but they also break immersion as well since they aren't clearly defined, nobody really knows if they should bother attacking them and they don't separate the areas very well since aliens mostly just ignore them.
Your beef is with a poorly implemented game mechanic, not with an "Addition for immersion for the casual noobs that ruins the game". Power nodes will eventually be better, the lights turning on/off is actually a really really interesting element to gameplay, yeah i said it GAMEPLAY not immersion. While playing ns2 you get the feeling that aliens like dark places, marines like light places, it's a war between the two.
People complaining about the lights going off either aren't making this connection, or are trying to ignore the great elements to hiding, stalking and flanking it provides for the aliens.
I wish there was some generic response to every single "LOL IMMERSION RUINING GAME" or such response there ever has been.
Oh wait there is one.
<b>No, stop stating your opinions as a fact, you're ignoring the valuable gameplay elements at a flawed attempt to single out immersion as an obtrusive element of the game based on a nostalgic and biased concept of what you've seen in the past. Your statements are stifling improvement to the ideas mentioned, or flat out rejecting more interesting mechanics on a copy/pasted argument of balance, skill requirements and rehashed arguments. </b>
It does exactly that.
I look at it like this:
1)Skulk opening in melee > marine
2)Marine opening at range > skulk
Now that area in between is the gray area. If skulks are very good at wall jumping, they can get closer and closer to situation 1 simply out of shear speed. Alternatively, they can use ambush tactics to achieve situation 1. The marine obviously wants situation 2.
So if you have a good marine (shooter) and a good skulk (mover), you have a simple shooting vs movement battle. If the skulk manages to close the gap without taking much fire, he will usually kill the marine. If the marine can predict and adjust for the skulk's jukes, then the marine will usually kill the skulk.
If your problem is that the wall jumping isn't good enough, then you simply increase the benefit from wall jumping (ie speed). Personally, I think the wall jumping needs to be played out more before anyone can conclude that it's not good enough. It's been out of a couple days. Marines have been learning how to aim for months. I think that's where the skill discrepancy comes from.
Because that's exactly what i see it doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps in public games, where the fighting is usually a mess (due to more players and lower skill).
The issue is difficult for the majority to see because of two things:
1) It only becomes apparently in organised matches (you have a better idea where the skulks are coming from so are more likely to see them as soon as they are visible).
2) Against very highly skilled marines (of which there are only a handful in NS2 atm).
While it might not be a common problem right now, this will be incredibly important if NS2 is to grow into a popular competitive game. Skulks need the ability to increase their potential inline with marines.
At the moment the only way to counter highly skilled marines is to essentially kill them, then repeatedly target them while they are traveling back to the front line. With the aim of keeping them away from the front line where the attacks are expected and there is team support, which is where they are strongest. This is vastly more demanding than marines simply playing normally and practicing aiming/jumping.
jump from wall/prop adds to bonus momentum
bonus momentum declines as some fixed rate while in the air or running on the ground
jump from ground stops bonus momentum decline for a short period.
air control allows for curved jump movement while jumping (allows X degree turn per some fixed game tick)
you might have some conditions where bonus momentum is immediately zeroed, but what if we didnt?
for a dead stopped skulk on the ground in melee, how about an energy based movement to give a slight speed boost to allow that final close to the marine. ( something for tier1)
Don't know what you are getting at here. I like BHop just not having to use walls to do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1918574:date=Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Also, Generally immersion comes hand in hand with good gameplay mechanics, your argument is that "Power nodes" for immersion break gameplay, but they also break immersion as well since they aren't clearly defined, nobody really knows if they should bother attacking them and they don't separate the areas very well since aliens mostly just ignore them.
Your beef is with a poorly implemented game mechanic, not with an "Addition for immersion for the casual noobs that ruins the game". Power nodes will eventually be better, the lights turning on/off is actually a really really interesting element to gameplay, yeah i said it GAMEPLAY not immersion. While playing ns2 you get the feeling that aliens like dark places, marines like light places, it's a war between the two.
People complaining about the lights going off either aren't making this connection, or are trying to ignore the great elements to hiding, stalking and flanking it provides for the aliens.
I wish there was some generic response to every single "LOL IMMERSION RUINING GAME" or such response there ever has been.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My "Beef" is with the power node concept period. My OPINION is that because of the immersion element of destroying a node it goes dark and then spots of red is the reason power nodes are still here. Not because they add anything to the game other than an annoyance. Turn it into a light switch that has nothing to do with power and call it a day. Forcing the marines to use their limited view flash lights does present interesting game play since it gives the advantage when properly used to the aliens.
You are wrong though in the fact that "power off" means alien controlled. DI does that and has been stated by the devs. This is why power nodes now have to be built BEFORE they are destroyed. If it is as you say the aliens would be able to sweep the map causing darkness all over. This is not the case and Flayra has stated that he likes the "oh sh**" moment of the lights going out at an inopportune time (which is immersion). It is a gimmick and one that is tied to as you said for me "A poorly implemented game mechanic".
I wish there was some generic response for all those "I love Immersion and Reality over gameplay" even though i am playing a sci-fi game with aliens in it and i have no clue what reality is.
<!--quoteo(post=1918574:date=Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 27 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh wait there is one.
<b>No, stop stating your opinions as a fact, you're ignoring the valuable gameplay elements at a flawed attempt to single out immersion as an obtrusive element of the game based on a nostalgic and biased concept of what you've seen in the past. Your statements are stifling improvement to the ideas mentioned, or flat out rejecting more interesting mechanics on a copy/pasted argument of balance, skill requirements and rehashed arguments. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My opinion is not fact and isnt being passed off as fact. I am not ignoring gameplay elements but sharing my opinion on a subject i dont have time to tell you everything i hate about it OR if i dont mention something i can do WITHOUT IT. Your attitude of "Change everything, i dont care" is what is ruining this game. What i find fun is not what you find fun. We seem to have different opinions on this which to you means im wrong and you are right? Pompous much? You sitting there with your 2012 made account where i have no idea who you are or what you stand for. Ya, GG. Take random shots at me, but at least i SPEAK MY MIND and always have the improvement of this game at heart. I have donated my share to include 7 copies of NS, 2 SE copies, and donated through the constie program a lot, but all this doesnt give my opinion greater weight then your but shows i am doing something about my opinion by supporting that which i love and will fight for as long as i can to make this game great.
So far the only 3 things in the game i have fought for and lost are: Bunnyhopping (which can be slightly argued now with what wall hopping is turning into), Alien Khamm, and Power nodes, but v1.0 isnt out yet.
So get off my back about repeated arguments. This is a new thread which requires rehashing of old ideas, but it seems you know my post well. Thanks for paying attention.
I had problems at first, like hitting jump to soon or jumping into edges of a wall, but when you get the feeling and know what the good surfaces are, its really awesome. Some times I just play with my prey and fly around them like a rocket, while they waste their ammo.
Also a good tactic when fighting in close combat is to back off a little, running into another room, and just wall jump back in after 2-3 seconds. Most marines start to reload or look around, when you disappear into another room, so they wont expect it.
Yea, i think this is one of the flaws of the timing system actually. As far as i am aware, the spring mechanic (white bar) starts the moment you 'stick' to a wall, prop or whatever. This means that in order to do a proper wall jump off a higher location you need to be able to jump up there.
So climbing up a pillar will trigger the white bar instantly, and as you climb the white bar will dissipate and your eventual wall jump from higher up the pillar will be weak. To really do a wall jump up here, you would need to jump off one of the pillars onto the other to activate the white bar on landing and then do a subsequent jump off the 2nd pillar which doesn't always work because of the angle restriction thing.
O
DAY
UM
CO0L
This piece of a "system" is a step into a right direction despite being faraway from NS1 system that was not complete or perfect either.
System needs to be complex so that there will be delight of success / progress for dedicated and the game can provide incredible feats for eSports.
It's bunnyhopping, you just have to hit a wall in between bunnyhops. If anything it's worse than bunnyhopping because at least bunnyhopping is easier to figure out, if incredibly tedious to get the timing right.
This is very often the beginning of a bad design. Also why should basic tasks required to play the skulk be "incredible feats for esports"? People don't clap and cheer when Nestea makes a drone in SC2 (well, nobody outside of Artosis).
Making an engineered product isn't about wrapping it in dozens of layers of nonsense to show off when you manage to 'get it right.'
Performance is still a big part of why people can't do it, just like the "you have to stick to wall first"-thing.
Without these problems, people would always get the speed boost when wall jumping, but it would be rewarded if you got the timing right. The speed increase from bad executed and good executed jumps doesn't even have to differ that much.
I can think of a lot of scenarios where you actually want to execute a bad jump to slow you down a bit, because you want to jump on a surface that is already really close, or to stay unpredictable.
Someone said it would be like the power meter when hitting the ball in a golf video game. That just means you gain more control over your movement, not that it is super hard to do.
Also, the "it's hard to figure out" thing just isn't a problem when more people are able to do it (see problems above).
Lets see it from the pov of a new player:
[new player] runs to marine -> dies
[new player] runs to marine -> dies
[new player] runs to marine -> dies
[new player] jumps to the marine -> lands one bite
[new player] sees another skulk jumping off the wall and kill the marine
[new player] tries jumping on and off a wall when approaching the marine -> hears a new skulk sound and possibly kills the marine, because the marine missed
[new player] figures that zigzagging walls is much more effective than running straight to the rines
There will be an "ahhh, cool!"- moment for the new player.
People always complain about games being too easy these days, but when there is a system that encourages you to improve yourself, people don't want it either.
The new wall jumping is in for 1 build, there will be plenty more to smoothen things out.
edit: just tested skulk jump in 202, and it became much easier, so everyone try it!
Jump onto a wall -> jump again.
They limited it a lot. I was topping out at 11-12 typically after 8 or 10 wall jumps in a row. It typically took around 5 jumps to get up to even 10 speed.
This
Also there is no reason that say jumping off the large wall in crevice high up should give you less momentum than just bouncing off a all right quickly. And as far as marines outrunning skulks.... if in physicality we compared a skulk to a say a meaty pitbull. I don't think many heavily armored equipped marines would have the running advantage on these four legged creatures. I can see some reasons it is the way it is now especially how OP aliens are but the skulk really does need mechanics that feel natural and intuitive. The easiest solution I see is a hive 1 leap. I am glad to see Schimmel/Sewlek plans to work more on this.
Also there is no reason that say jumping off the large wall in crevice high up should give you less momentum than just bouncing off a all right quickly. And as far as marines outrunning skulks.... if in physicality we compared a skulk to a say a meaty pitbull. I don't think many heavily armored equipped marines would have the running advantage on these four legged creatures. I can see some reasons it is the way it is now especially how OP aliens are but the skulk really does need mechanics that feel natural and intuitive. The easiest solution I see is a hive 1 leap. I am glad to see Schimmel/Sewlek plans to work more on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
intuitive is the key word. and the old timing was not intuitive. i liked it myself more because it prevent several exploits :) but for a new player, the timings we had in 201 were just hidden and not understandable. a mechanic that requires you to read to forums to figure out how it works is just bad design, but it made the jump timing be a bit smarter. so it breaks down to be a simple trade off, where the endresult can be the same. there are a lot of different opinions about this, and it's possible that it changes again. but for now we try the "the faster you jump, the more boost you get" timing, and i hope that it works out because it's much easier to understand
Not really related but I find the skulk movement from a marine perspective to be sometimes very discontinuous, the model flip around, the skulk move in every direction, it can get very erratic.
Hey, I do have just one thing I'd like to see done with the timing.
Previously, the "timing" involved hitting a small window somewhere ~half a second after you landed before you jump off a wall again. That was too complex for a lot of people and made it frustrating for others.
Currently, the "timing" just requires you to jump ASAP.
How about a "timing" that gives you a 0.5s leeway to jump and then starts diminishing your gain from the walljump? Right now, if I wrote a macro to spam space every 0.02 seconds when I held space, I would be better at wall jumping than any human. If you put in this 0.5s leeway then it not only gives players a clear cut time period (instead of LOLASAP) but it allows players to walljump effectively even with higher ping.
Air control. 100% air control at that. I really, really hate air control for the reasons Yuuki listed.