I like the walls. I don't know about the mechanics or the timing, but I like the <b>aspect</b> of walls. Skulks scaling walls is cool. Skulks scaling ceiling is cooler. Perhaps we could add that? Here's an idea: Going down always increases your speed. Scaling down wall = Speed increase. Dropping down from the ceiling = Speed increase. Gradually that speed boost would wear off. Maybe you could prolong it with regular bunnyhopping? Or perhaps bunnyhopping with a left-to-right-right-to-left strafe? (Done with mouse.)
<!--quoteo(post=1917613:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:59 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Mar 25 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And what do you say to jumping on the floor doesn't need to be timed too precise as well? Like in Quake?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe a valid concern as long as the game has weird hitches going that might make you miss your jump. And I wouldn't know about that in Quake, I've mostly played Quake2 where it was about as precise as it is now in NS2, and a bit of Quake Live, but I don't remember how it was in that game. I'm personally used to clicking mouse2 precisely every time I hit the ground.
I've spent 40 minutes practicing and reading to learn this and I'm just now finding the arbitrary timing that says it counts as pounce. My feeling is that it's frustrating and unreliable. I'll be pouncing along happy as a clam then my computer gets a moderately lower frame rate in some other corridor and now the timing feels different and just like that I can barely crawl along.
When it works its VERY fun and feels much more natural than bunnyhop ever did to me. That's after 40 minutes of frustration trying to figure out an obtuse system that still doesn't entirely make sense to me. As a consumer I like to find that the system is intuitive enough to be rewarding as I learn it with greater rewards for doing well. Skiing in tribes is a good example, its fun to start and REALLY fun to master. For me, your current system was frustrating to learn to the point that I was confused about what I was suppose to be doing to get the boost until I had watched the video twice AND read some of the forum (excessive barrier to entry). Once it clicked it was still very hit and miss but fun when it worked.
I'm not sure what would improve the experience. Perhaps friendlier timing? Maybe a system as mentioned before where holding space causes skulks to jump as soon as they touch a surface. But they angle they jump from affects the speed bonus. The skill would be in finding paths and lanes rather that pressing spacebar with the appropriate rhythm. This may help people like me who can't afford new rigs just for a game. To people who say this leads to skulks just bouncing everywhere....they are doing that anyway so what's your point?
I don't claim to know the solution but I do know you need to find something to make the experience more engaging and intuitive for new players. I believe you are on the right track with walljumping but not the exact implementation yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1917633:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:20 PM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ Mar 25 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your point is a bit moot, I think... because this is 10 builds in a beta game, expect huge changes, otherwise NS2 beta might not be for you. If you were a consumer and bought the game after release you don't have to deal with beta frustration. I am glad UWE is experimenting, they need to get it right!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a beta of a game that they expect to release this coming summer. Nobody (including UWE) wants to see an incomplete game being sold on Steam. If they get caught up in trying to polish a mechanic that wasn't reasoned out properly in the first place, it will never cease to be on the developers' "to do list."
If we rely on the 3 people who like walljumping for information, no one will realize that it has not caught on because it's so unintuitive and unpublicised.
I personally like the inclusion of any sort of depth to the movement system as it makes the game have more depth for people to utilize, but I fail to see how this is at all different from NS1 bunnyhopping. It is going to confuse new players and frustrate bad players, while not really setting the bar that high for good players to master it. Bunnyhopping was easy as hell to learn and impossible to master. I was probably one of the worst bunnyhoppers in competitive play and I got most of my skulk kills from dropping on dudes heads.
You either need to just give skulks a dash ability so that they can close small gaps in a hurry or make this wallbunnyhopping easier for terribles to pick up. Having good skulks flying across the map like the easter bunny on crack and crappy ones not being able to get close to marines at all is unintuitive and is not going to make casual gamers want to play the game for any amount of time.
<!--quoteo(post=1917609:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:54 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a script that just lets me constantly hop while spacebar is held (i made it to not wear out my spacebar when playing lerk) and if i honestly put any more effort into it i'm sure i could make wall jumping into a pretty decent script, just aim at a wall and hold a button.
It's not unscriptable, and it's also absolutely obnoxious in its new iteration, where you literally don't stick to walls AT ALL for no apparent reason. Before it was pretty easy to bounce up to 10+ speed, now i barely sustain 9, no matter how hard i try because the timing and aiming are absurd, i have to wait like .2 of a second after hitting a wall to jump again.
Easiest way to make this easily accessible for everyone is simply make spacebar "Auto hop" when you have it held down. Then give a speed boost when you jump off a wall at an angle adjacent to the direction you're traveling, poof. Easy and Intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, actually you can't script it. You don't want to immediately jump upon landing on the wall. And the time in between jumps changes with every jump depending on speed, angle, and wall.
I'm in agreement with holding down space = spam jump, though. No reason not to have that.
Though I think your "easiest way" suggestion lacks the "skill" part of "skill jumping." It's basically the current mechanic minus the repeatable jumps to increase speed, effectively just a severely low skill ceiling for skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1917629:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 25 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is a left over from the previous wall jump code to prevent exploiting (spamming jump at the same wall was leading to insane speeds). i think this is not needed anymore with the new code<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice. Getting rid of that will make sticking to walls much more consistent.
Do people actually think that bunnyhopping was all about using 1 script and just going 20-0 as skulk? Any idiot could spam a button or use a keyboard or third party macro to emulate the old +special script key spam but bunnyhopping was all about movement of the player. If you were predictable you got wrecked by competant marines in a hurry no matter how fast you were moving.
<!--quoteo(post=1917658:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:51 PM:name=MrGunner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrGunner @ Mar 25 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally like the inclusion of any sort of depth to the movement system as it makes the game have more depth for people to utilize, but I fail to see how this is at all different from NS1 bunnyhopping. It is going to confuse new players and frustrate bad players, while not really setting the bar that high for good players to master it. Bunnyhopping was easy as hell to learn and impossible to master. I was probably one of the worst bunnyhoppers in competitive play and I got most of my skulk kills from dropping on dudes heads.
You either need to just give skulks a dash ability so that they can close small gaps in a hurry or make this wallbunnyhopping easier for terribles to pick up. Having good skulks flying across the map like the easter bunny on crack and crappy ones not being able to get close to marines at all is unintuitive and is not going to make casual gamers want to play the game for any amount of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying you need to give auto aim to everyone because good players shoot so much better than bad players.
No, it's like saying you should give the skulk another simple movement ability because <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117309" target="_blank">relying entirely on the unintuitive walljump</a> is bad for the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1917654:date=Mar 25 2012, 10:46 AM:name=Tinker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tinker @ Mar 25 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't claim to know the solution but I do know you need to find something to make the experience more engaging and intuitive for new players. I believe you are on the right track with walljumping but not the exact implementation yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like wall jumping, because i felt bunnyhopping was practically retarded and made no sense, whereas wall jumping makes sense (when you figure out jumping off walls makes you go faster) as you're getting speed boosts from tangible things. I really like wall jumping and i feel it's the right way to go.
However the skill portion shouldn't come from "Correctly hitting a wall and timing your jump off of it"
The skill portion should be ENTIRELY based on using walls to gain speed in the right situation, jumping at a wall and then jumping off of it should be ample enough to give you a speed boost. No timing, nothing else should be required. I'm so absolutely sick and tired of players DEMANDING some absurd impossible to master skill based movement system (bunnyhopping) when you're spending far too much time concentrating on SKILL BASED MOVEMENT SYSTEMS.
Instead of focusing on the skills of choosing targets, strategizing where you're going to attack marines from, if you should drop from the ceiling, which wall to jump off...ect.
<b> Bunnyhopping and the current walljumping are esoteric (understood by few), non intuitive, place huge gaps between good and bad players and most of all, ENCOURAGE YOU TO FLING YOURSELF BLINDLY AT MARINES AND HOPE THEY DIE. </b>
Wall jumping should be easy, you should be able to hit a wall and jump off of it as your first time playing skulk and realize "oh hey i get speed if i jump off walls, i'll do that more". What should really matter is HOW you choose to use that bonus, and how you sustain that speed boost.
<!--quoteo(post=1917658:date=Mar 26 2012, 05:51 AM:name=MrGunner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrGunner @ Mar 26 2012, 05:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You either need to just give skulks a dash ability so that they can close small gaps in a hurry or make this wallbunnyhopping easier for terribles to pick up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like say, some kind of leap? It might work, I'm sceptical.
Also, skulks aren't useless without the walljump speeds, they just have to rely more heavily upon ambushes and flanking.
This all just boils down to people wanting an unfair advantage. Everyone who could bhop in NS1 loves it so much because learning that turned them from a horrible player into a pro instantly. Yes i too have fond memories of bhopping dominance but nothing in this game should allow for such a huge skill gap. I liked the old skulk movement and in no way needed any more of an advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1917675:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:10 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 25 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall jumping should be easy, you should be able to hit a wall and jump off of it as your first time playing skulk and realize "oh hey i get speed if i jump off walls, i'll do that more". What should really matter is HOW you choose to use that bonus, and how you sustain that speed boost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THANK YOU.
<!--quoteo(post=1917677:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:12 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Mar 25 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This all just boils down to people wanting an unfair advantage. Everyone who could bhop in NS1 loves it so much because learning that turned them from a horrible player into a pro instantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posts like this are basically worthless because I can't prove you right or wrong. There's nothing to discuss here except to go 'HELL YEAH MAN! THIS! +1!' or 'NO YOU'RE WRONG YOU SUCK YOU'RE BAD' Please don't do this. It's not that we want an unfair advantage. It's that we want the design of this game to not cause brain cancer.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I hate repetitive motion type movement skills like bunny hopping and mario kart ds drifting, but if it's anything along the lines of l4d1 hunter walljumping then I'll love it.
<!--quoteo(post=1917674:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:10 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it's like saying you should give the skulk another simple movement ability because <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117309" target="_blank">relying entirely on the unintuitive walljump</a> is bad for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe simply explain the "unintuitive mechanic" to newer players. Everyone I've explained it to has gotten it within 20 minutes. Hell, YOU should get it after watching that video and practicing it for half an hour or an hour. It is really quite simple to learn.
There are inconsistencies which should be patched up, like sticking/sliding down walls. That doesn't mean you need to dumb it down. I'm sure people didn't learn bunnyhopping in a day after it was released, either.
Did you miss the post the dude made a couple of pages back where he watched the video and tried it for 40 minutes and still had no idea how to do it or are you just ignoring everything that anyone posts that doesn't agree with your ignorance?
<!--quoteo(post=1917478:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:14 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many replies like this does it take for something to change?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In fairness they I'm not really sure what is supposed to change right this instant, yes the system is kinda bad and not really any different from regular bunnyhopping, but it's kinda the weekend, and a couple of days after the patch was released. Bit early to complain about 'WHY ISN'T ANYTHING HAPPENING?' I think.
<!--quoteo(post=1917683:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:20 PM:name=MrGunner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrGunner @ Mar 25 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you miss the post the dude made a couple of pages back where he watched the video and tried it for 40 minutes and still had no idea how to do it or are you just ignoring everything that anyone posts that doesn't agree with your ignorance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps I just weigh my own anecdotal evidence more than that of an anonymous forum poster.
<!--quoteo(post=1917682:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:16 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe simply explain the "unintuitive mechanic" to newer players. Everyone I've explained it to has gotten it within 20 minutes. Hell, YOU should get it after watching that video and practicing it for half an hour or an hour. It is really quite simple to learn.
There are inconsistencies which should be patched up, like sticking/sliding down walls. That doesn't mean you need to dumb it down. I'm sure people didn't learn bunnyhopping in a day after it was released, either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1917682:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:16 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure people didn't learn bunnyhopping in a day after it was released, either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, but id also didn't go and change bunnyhopping every 2 weeks with no stated (or obvious) goal in mind.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.
<!--quoteo(post=1917688:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:23 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is true, but id also didn't go and change bunnyhopping every 2 weeks with no stated (or obvious) goal in mind.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI wall jumping is similar to wall dodging in UT2k4 mods. There is precedent for this kind of movement as much as that of crouch sliding or bunny hopping. Skulk's special "thing" is to stick to walls/ceilings. Incorporating that into skulk's movement mechanics is a no brainer.
Wall dodging in ut2k4 worked very well for their faster paced gameplay modes.
<!--quoteo(post=1917688:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:23 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is true, but id also didn't go and change bunnyhopping every 2 weeks with no stated (or obvious) goal in mind.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Essentially, they're trying to make a difficult mechanic to use that gives you an unfair advantage against other players if you master it.
Which was bunnyhopping.
Instead they should give you an easy mechanic to use, that you're encouraged to use to greatly increase your mobility/versatility in combat.
The issue is eventually, bunnyhopping type movement becomes impossible to balance around, because players that can't do it suck, and players who can do it are too good, so changing skulks in any way makes bad players worse, or can make good players godlike. Whereas a simpler movement mechanic can be easily balanced around, because everyone's expected to be using it, or trying to use it well.
You can't balance bunnyhopping, so you can't have it in a game you want balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1917619:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:09 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 25 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall Hopping sucks and this is why: It requires WALLS. There you go. Argue that! It is limited and inferior to BHopping because of this and is a poor poor substitute no matter who defends it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it does not just require WALLS, it requires a change in surface angle/height, or at least that is the intention. So, that includes crates, railings, catwalks, pipes, stairs, tram cars, etc, as well as the floor for a single jump. The maps are filled with stuff that has to be there to visually break up a room and add more cover for aliens, and those same props are meant to be used in the wall jumping mechanic, as well. Admittedly, there are still some issues with this, and jumping off stuff like crates does not work all that well sometimes, and there is a known issue with trying to jump when going up stairs and ramps, as right now it stops your movement almost completely.
I'm not totally arguing for slapping bhop in NS2. I agree with the problem of creating skill gaps, and I think there are lots of ways to have movement mechanics that are easy to learn but hard to master (like the movement key in Warsow). I just don't think it's fair to compare bunnyhopping with NS2 walljumping in the first place. One was an unexpected consequence of early 3D engines, while the other is meticulously designed and tweaked.
<!--quoteo(post=1917693:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:28 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 25 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it does not just require WALLS, it requires a change in surface angle/height, or at least that is the intention. So, that includes crates, railings, catwalks, pipes, stairs, tram cars, etc, as well as the floor for a single jump. The maps are filled with stuff that has to be there to visually break up a room and add more cover for aliens, and those same props are meant to be used in the wall jumping mechanic, as well. Admittedly, there are still some issues with this, and jumping off stuff like crates does not work all that well sometimes, and there is a known issue with trying to jump when going up stairs and ramps, as right now it stops your movement almost completely.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is the stuff I want to see. You've got a great point. A pile of boxes with a bar across it sitting in the middle of a room can let skulks walljump through the room without using the bordering walls, and that's good. How much map dependency is too much, though? Is the end goal to have skulks surfing off the setpiece in the middle of Tram Hub, and stuff like that? That would be cool, I think.
<!--quoteo(post=1917688:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:23 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is true, but id also didn't go and change bunnyhopping every 2 weeks with no stated (or obvious) goal in mind.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posts like this are basically worthless because I can't prove you right or wrong. There's nothing to discuss here except to go 'HELL YEAH MAN! THIS! +1!' or 'NO YOU'RE WRONG YOU SUCK YOU'RE BAD' Please don't do this. It's not that we want an unfair advantage. It's that we want the design of this game to not cause brain cancer.
It is a skill that must be learned, if you can't do it.. well keep trying to learn.. there is nothing stopping a player from gaining the same skill as an avid player who has played tons of skill-based movement games for many years, it is a skill! Just like aiming! Just like jumping as a marine to the side to avoid getting chomped! Just keep practicing and practicing, it makes for perfect play! That is why jump maps are created.
What I think of when i hear 'skill based movement' is actually gliding around as a lerk. There's a skill to managing to evade obstacles, get close enough to accurately crop dust marines, and then escape through a far exit before marines have chance to react. You can tailor it to your skill level because you can fly further away if you aren't comfortable with it, but you won't do quite as well with spores, and you can choose an easier exit if you don't think you can hit a vent perfectly. It's also not very difficult to figure out, you learn to do it simply by playing lerk. It's an application of a necessary skill to get good results under pressure. It also doesn't require a million button presses to do.
Comments
I like the walls. I don't know about the mechanics or the timing, but I like the <b>aspect</b> of walls. Skulks scaling walls is cool. Skulks scaling ceiling is cooler. Perhaps we could add that? Here's an idea: Going down always increases your speed. Scaling down wall = Speed increase. Dropping down from the ceiling = Speed increase. Gradually that speed boost would wear off. Maybe you could prolong it with regular bunnyhopping? Or perhaps bunnyhopping with a left-to-right-right-to-left strafe? (Done with mouse.)
Just throwing ideas out there.
Maybe a valid concern as long as the game has weird hitches going that might make you miss your jump. And I wouldn't know about that in Quake, I've mostly played Quake2 where it was about as precise as it is now in NS2, and a bit of Quake Live, but I don't remember how it was in that game. I'm personally used to clicking mouse2 precisely every time I hit the ground.
When it works its VERY fun and feels much more natural than bunnyhop ever did to me. That's after 40 minutes of frustration trying to figure out an obtuse system that still doesn't entirely make sense to me. As a consumer I like to find that the system is intuitive enough to be rewarding as I learn it with greater rewards for doing well. Skiing in tribes is a good example, its fun to start and REALLY fun to master. For me, your current system was frustrating to learn to the point that I was confused about what I was suppose to be doing to get the boost until I had watched the video twice AND read some of the forum (excessive barrier to entry). Once it clicked it was still very hit and miss but fun when it worked.
I'm not sure what would improve the experience. Perhaps friendlier timing? Maybe a system as mentioned before where holding space causes skulks to jump as soon as they touch a surface. But they angle they jump from affects the speed bonus. The skill would be in finding paths and lanes rather that pressing spacebar with the appropriate rhythm. This may help people like me who can't afford new rigs just for a game. To people who say this leads to skulks just bouncing everywhere....they are doing that anyway so what's your point?
I don't claim to know the solution but I do know you need to find something to make the experience more engaging and intuitive for new players. I believe you are on the right track with walljumping but not the exact implementation yet.
It's a beta of a game that they expect to release this coming summer. Nobody (including UWE) wants to see an incomplete game being sold on Steam.
If they get caught up in trying to polish a mechanic that wasn't reasoned out properly in the first place, it will never cease to be on the developers' "to do list."
If we rely on the 3 people who like walljumping for information, no one will realize that it has not caught on because it's so unintuitive and unpublicised.
You either need to just give skulks a dash ability so that they can close small gaps in a hurry or make this wallbunnyhopping easier for terribles to pick up. Having good skulks flying across the map like the easter bunny on crack and crappy ones not being able to get close to marines at all is unintuitive and is not going to make casual gamers want to play the game for any amount of time.
It's not unscriptable, and it's also absolutely obnoxious in its new iteration, where you literally don't stick to walls AT ALL for no apparent reason. Before it was pretty easy to bounce up to 10+ speed, now i barely sustain 9, no matter how hard i try because the timing and aiming are absurd, i have to wait like .2 of a second after hitting a wall to jump again.
Easiest way to make this easily accessible for everyone is simply make spacebar "Auto hop" when you have it held down. Then give a speed boost when you jump off a wall at an angle adjacent to the direction you're traveling, poof. Easy and Intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, actually you can't script it. You don't want to immediately jump upon landing on the wall. And the time in between jumps changes with every jump depending on speed, angle, and wall.
I'm in agreement with holding down space = spam jump, though. No reason not to have that.
Though I think your "easiest way" suggestion lacks the "skill" part of "skill jumping." It's basically the current mechanic minus the repeatable jumps to increase speed, effectively just a severely low skill ceiling for skulks.
Nice. Getting rid of that will make sticking to walls much more consistent.
You either need to just give skulks a dash ability so that they can close small gaps in a hurry or make this wallbunnyhopping easier for terribles to pick up. Having good skulks flying across the map like the easter bunny on crack and crappy ones not being able to get close to marines at all is unintuitive and is not going to make casual gamers want to play the game for any amount of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying you need to give auto aim to everyone because good players shoot so much better than bad players.
I like wall jumping, because i felt bunnyhopping was practically retarded and made no sense, whereas wall jumping makes sense (when you figure out jumping off walls makes you go faster) as you're getting speed boosts from tangible things. I really like wall jumping and i feel it's the right way to go.
However the skill portion shouldn't come from "Correctly hitting a wall and timing your jump off of it"
The skill portion should be ENTIRELY based on using walls to gain speed in the right situation, jumping at a wall and then jumping off of it should be ample enough to give you a speed boost. No timing, nothing else should be required. I'm so absolutely sick and tired of players DEMANDING some absurd impossible to master skill based movement system (bunnyhopping) when you're spending far too much time concentrating on SKILL BASED MOVEMENT SYSTEMS.
Instead of focusing on the skills of choosing targets, strategizing where you're going to attack marines from, if you should drop from the ceiling, which wall to jump off...ect.
<b>
Bunnyhopping and the current walljumping are esoteric (understood by few), non intuitive, place huge gaps between good and bad players and most of all, ENCOURAGE YOU TO FLING YOURSELF BLINDLY AT MARINES AND HOPE THEY DIE.
</b>
Wall jumping should be easy, you should be able to hit a wall and jump off of it as your first time playing skulk and realize "oh hey i get speed if i jump off walls, i'll do that more". What should really matter is HOW you choose to use that bonus, and how you sustain that speed boost.
Like say, some kind of leap? It might work, I'm sceptical.
Also, skulks aren't useless without the walljump speeds, they just have to rely more heavily upon ambushes and flanking.
THANK YOU.
<!--quoteo(post=1917677:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:12 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Mar 25 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This all just boils down to people wanting an unfair advantage. Everyone who could bhop in NS1 loves it so much because learning that turned them from a horrible player into a pro instantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posts like this are basically worthless because I can't prove you right or wrong. There's nothing to discuss here except to go 'HELL YEAH MAN! THIS! +1!' or 'NO YOU'RE WRONG YOU SUCK YOU'RE BAD' Please don't do this. It's not that we want an unfair advantage. It's that we want the design of this game to not cause brain cancer.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8UJ3Cyzb5M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8UJ3Cyzb5M</a>
Or maybe simply explain the "unintuitive mechanic" to newer players. Everyone I've explained it to has gotten it within 20 minutes. Hell, YOU should get it after watching that video and practicing it for half an hour or an hour. It is really quite simple to learn.
There are inconsistencies which should be patched up, like sticking/sliding down walls. That doesn't mean you need to dumb it down. I'm sure people didn't learn bunnyhopping in a day after it was released, either.
In fairness they I'm not really sure what is supposed to change right this instant, yes the system is kinda bad and not really any different from regular bunnyhopping, but it's kinda the weekend, and a couple of days after the patch was released. Bit early to complain about 'WHY ISN'T ANYTHING HAPPENING?' I think.
Perhaps I just weigh my own anecdotal evidence more than that of an anonymous forum poster.
There are inconsistencies which should be patched up, like sticking/sliding down walls. That doesn't mean you need to dumb it down. I'm sure people didn't learn bunnyhopping in a day after it was released, either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude i can't do it, YOU CALLIN ME A BAD PLAYER?
PUT YO FISTS UP RIGHT NOW FOO*
This is true, but id also didn't go and change bunnyhopping every 2 weeks with no stated (or obvious) goal in mind.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI wall jumping is similar to wall dodging in UT2k4 mods. There is precedent for this kind of movement as much as that of crouch sliding or bunny hopping. Skulk's special "thing" is to stick to walls/ceilings. Incorporating that into skulk's movement mechanics is a no brainer.
Wall dodging in ut2k4 worked very well for their faster paced gameplay modes.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Essentially, they're trying to make a difficult mechanic to use that gives you an unfair advantage against other players if you master it.
Which was bunnyhopping.
Instead they should give you an easy mechanic to use, that you're encouraged to use to greatly increase your mobility/versatility in combat.
The issue is eventually, bunnyhopping type movement becomes impossible to balance around, because players that can't do it suck, and players who can do it are too good, so changing skulks in any way makes bad players worse, or can make good players godlike. Whereas a simpler movement mechanic can be easily balanced around, because everyone's expected to be using it, or trying to use it well.
You can't balance bunnyhopping, so you can't have it in a game you want balanced.
No, it does not just require WALLS, it requires a change in surface angle/height, or at least that is the intention. So, that includes crates, railings, catwalks, pipes, stairs, tram cars, etc, as well as the floor for a single jump. The maps are filled with stuff that has to be there to visually break up a room and add more cover for aliens, and those same props are meant to be used in the wall jumping mechanic, as well. Admittedly, there are still some issues with this, and jumping off stuff like crates does not work all that well sometimes, and there is a known issue with trying to jump when going up stairs and ramps, as right now it stops your movement almost completely.
--Cory
<!--quoteo(post=1917693:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:28 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 25 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it does not just require WALLS, it requires a change in surface angle/height, or at least that is the intention. So, that includes crates, railings, catwalks, pipes, stairs, tram cars, etc, as well as the floor for a single jump. The maps are filled with stuff that has to be there to visually break up a room and add more cover for aliens, and those same props are meant to be used in the wall jumping mechanic, as well. Admittedly, there are still some issues with this, and jumping off stuff like crates does not work all that well sometimes, and there is a known issue with trying to jump when going up stairs and ramps, as right now it stops your movement almost completely.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is the stuff I want to see. You've got a great point. A pile of boxes with a bar across it sitting in the middle of a room can let skulks walljump through the room without using the bordering walls, and that's good. How much map dependency is too much, though? Is the end goal to have skulks surfing off the setpiece in the middle of Tram Hub, and stuff like that? That would be cool, I think.
In fact, bunnyhopping (along with most of the 3d engine movement tricks) was not designed as a core mechanic in Quake. It was an accident (and a damn good one), that was carried over to other games because players wanted it. In NS2 it seems like the walljump is an attempt to create something like this without knowing <i>how to design a movement mechanic</i> - after all, there are few precedents for <i>designed </i>movement mechanics and a lot of accidents like bunnyhopping and crouchsliding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posts like this are basically worthless because I can't prove you right or wrong. There's nothing to discuss here except to go 'HELL YEAH MAN! THIS! +1!' or 'NO YOU'RE WRONG YOU SUCK YOU'RE BAD' Please don't do this. It's not that we want an unfair advantage. It's that we want the design of this game to not cause brain cancer.
That is the way I see it...