<!--quoteo(post=1893345:date=Jan 10 2012, 11:28 AM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Jan 10 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Technically, it could be too late because someone else might make a better and more playable Veil map remake, especially since all level files are editable by anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean an unauthorized fork of fmpone's veil? I'm hoping people won't have the bad taste to go running that on their servers.
As for the brightness, I would agree (I think I already mentioned it before), but instead of asking mappers to brighten up their maps, I'm waiting for a gamma\brightness option to be put into the engine so the more competitive\regular players could do away with the darkness and mandatory flashlights. The bright veil people know is mostly due to high brightness-settings plus some gammaramp and whatnot.
<!--quoteo(post=1893394:date=Jan 10 2012, 05:08 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 10 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean an unauthorized fork of fmpone's veil? I'm hoping people won't have the bad taste to go running that on their servers.
As for the brightness, I would agree (I think I already mentioned it before), but instead of asking mappers to brighten up their maps, I'm waiting for a gamma\brightness option to be put into the engine so the more competitive\regular players could do away with the darkness and mandatory flashlights. The bright veil people know is mostly due to high brightness-settings plus some gammaramp and whatnot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just externally with your graphics card control panel.
<!--quoteo(post=1893394:date=Jan 10 2012, 07:08 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 10 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean an unauthorized fork of fmpone's veil? I'm hoping people won't have the bad taste to go running that on their servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lot's of people made dust remakes, assault remakes etc. for CS. Some of them were very fun.
Don't go knocking someone building on a foundation, it's more than fine, all you do is credit the original author for the majority of the work and say "here's my twist". I'd never discourage that from mappers, particularly the new to mapping kind who need that sort of experience of editing.
The problem with gamma though is that if the original look is very dark, increasing gamma makes it look awful. I think the lighting in the first MS pictures was ok.
<!--quoteo(post=1893403:date=Jan 10 2012, 05:51 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 10 2012, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lot's of people made dust remakes, assault remakes etc. for CS. Some of them were very fun.
Don't go knocking someone building on a foundation, it's more than fine, all you do is credit the original author for the majority of the work and say "here's my twist". I'd never discourage that from mappers, particularly the new to mapping kind who need that sort of experience of editing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not without implicit (a general o.k to the mapping-community), or otherwise explicit permission. Mucking about with a map on your own hard-drive (and listen-server) is fine, but putting something out (into the public area) with zero consideration of the original author seems like a pretty ###### move to me (regardless if you put a "here's my twist"-sticker on it). That's my take anyway, noone'll get sued over it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1893407:date=Jan 10 2012, 06:27 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jan 10 2012, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with gamma though is that if the original look is very dark, increasing gamma makes it look awful. I think the lighting in the first MS pictures was ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with competitive players is that they don't care if it looks like poop <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><i><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <-- tongue in cheek smiley, please holster your pitchforks and torches!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
[edit-off-topic] Also how does dust fit into the gameplay of NS is what I want to know... Sure it "flows" for CS and could have the same effect for NS, but melee vs ranged is still a big deciding factor, I don't see it working all that well on dust...
<!--quoteo(post=1893417:date=Jan 10 2012, 10:35 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 10 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with competitive players is that they don't care if it looks like poop <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><i><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <-- tongue in cheek smiley, please holster your pitchforks and torches!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
[edit-off-topic] Also how does dust fit into the gameplay of NS is what I want to know... Sure it "flows" for CS and could have the same effect for NS, but melee vs ranged is still a big deciding factor, I don't see it working all that well on dust...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't really get it did you?
It's talking about a design sense not a game sense. What I've said is you get rehashes of maps in all games, normally created by the learning mappers. Dust/Assault in CS, 2fort in TF, two towers in UT so forth. It's about a design spin not about how CS applies to NS, this is a mapping forum after all and I expected another mapper as yourself to make the obvious creative link,
Once NS2(.exe) has brightness and gamma options, these excessive dark maps will brighten up and open the door to customization of how "you" as the gamer want the map. The current ns2_veil, in my opinion, and I've been called some pretty harsh things by Shawn for feeling this way, is a large art project for him. It doesn't stick to the fundamentals of what ns_veil was known for, which is balance, performance and the replay factor. Shawn sadly seems to think since version alpha02 ("greybox"; empty corridors and bright areas) worked, that this attractive art project will work as well. I have my doubts however.
I think the map looks great in some areas, but in most areas, balance and playability were not taken into consideration. Hence the reason Shawn hasn't been able to produce a map of his own layout to date. Everything he has put out is based off of concept art he finds (He actually posted a video of him mapping to concept art) which is not the approach to take in a game heavily relying on balance.
I'm worried that what was once a great idea (veil remake), might turn into a problem in terms of balance and functionality. I do recall going back-and-forth with Shawn to remove a large container that was consuming half of a hallway in the early stages of the map. Shawn, at the time, seemed to be more interested in how it looked than how it will play out in the game itself. Shawn ended up removing it, but it took a lot of feedback before he considered accepting that the game mechanics sometimes trumps the art aspect in designing environments for games. Shawn just needs to focus less on the the art perspective and more on the balance, performance, playability and replay factor of the map.
In response to Yuuki: Pipeline looks cool, all the pipes going all over the place. But, when I think of how it will play out in the game as it stands, I see those pipes creating issues. I spent about 10 minutes playing around with pipeline and did not have the same feel of "openness" that I did in Natural Selection. The entire map looks cool in general, but I fear that the excessive approach from a design perspective will tarnish the playability the original had/has. We will have to see how it turn out in the long run.
P.S - I just hope the map rotations aren't packed with remakes in 1.0 but rather consist of newly structured, balanced, high performance maps.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
A bit less hostility would be appreciated there konata ;)
I'm just saying, by trying to learn to map for NS2 of all games (biggest mapping challenge compared to most games) using maps from games that are completely different as a foundation, will only teach you the basics of mapping. Something that is obviously important, but it wont teach you how to map for NS(2), there is a BIG difference where gameplay is concerned. So yeah, why not learn to map for NS2 using NS as an example and not CS/Quake/UT(x) and such...
You can be the most creative person alive with the classics from other games, but it wont teach you anything about the gameplay/flow, which is afaik the biggest part of NS(2) mapping with a side-dish of awesome visuals :P
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1893424:date=Jan 10 2012, 10:11 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 10 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bit less hostility would be appreciated there konata ;)
I'm just saying, by trying to learn to map for NS2 of all games (biggest mapping challenge compared to most games) using maps from games that are completely different as a foundation, will only teach you the basics of mapping. Something that is obviously important, but it wont teach you how to map for NS(2), there is a BIG difference where gameplay is concerned. So yeah, why not learn to map for NS2 using NS as an example and not CS/Quake/UT(x) and such...
You can be the most creative person alive with the classics from other games, but it wont teach you anything about the gameplay/flow, which is afaik the biggest part of NS(2) mapping with a side-dish of awesome visuals :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Kouji_San :)
What I think he means is that in counter-strike, mappers learning to map, often rip apart and learn de_dust, and release their own spin on it, as an introduction to mapping. Mappers learning TF would do a take on 2forts, and mappers learning UT would do a remake of facing worlds. He is saying that as the level files are currently not secure, mappers learning to map may just rip from fmpone's veil remake, and remake it themselves, as it was a popular map for the game type, like de_dust for CS and 2forts for TF. He is not suggesting anything about using those maps to learn to map for NS, he is talking about new NS mappers ripping the open access level file of the ns2_veil remake and doing their own take on that.
He is saying this is ok for learning, saying this is what has happened in those other games and should NS2 become as popular as we hope, then the same may happen here, particularly if people feel the remake isn't quite right, they may do their own corrections, as it is such a popular map.
That's what I understood from his posts, and I hope that clears up the miscommunication I sensed between you two :)
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893423:date=Jan 10 2012, 04:04 PM:name=vizioNz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizioNz @ Jan 10 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once NS2(.exe) has brightness and gamma options, these excessive dark maps will brighten up and open the door to customization of how "you" as the gamer want the map. The current ns2_veil, in my opinion, and I've been called some pretty harsh things by Shawn for feeling this way, is a large art project for him. It doesn't stick to the fundamentals of what ns_veil was known for, which is balance, performance and the replay factor. Shawn sadly seems to think since version alpha02 ("greybox"; empty corridors and bright areas) worked, that this attractive art project will work as well. I have my doubts however.
I think the map looks great in some areas, but in most areas, balance and playability were not taken into consideration. Hence the reason Shawn hasn't been able to produce a map of his own layout to date. Everything he has put out is based off of concept art he finds (He actually posted a video of him mapping to concept art) which is not the approach to take in a game heavily relying on balance.
I'm worried that what was once a great idea (veil remake), might turn into a problem in terms of balance and functionality. I do recall going back-and-forth with Shawn to remove a large container that was consuming half of a hallway in the early stages of the map. Shawn, at the time, seemed to be more interested in how it looked than how it will play out in the game itself. Shawn ended up removing it, but it took a lot of feedback before he considered accepting that the game mechanics sometimes trumps the art aspect in designing environments for games. Shawn just needs to focus less on the the art perspective and more on the balance, performance, playability and replay factor of the map.
In response to Yuuki: Pipeline looks cool, all the pipes going all over the place. But, when I think of how it will play out in the game as it stands, I see those pipes creating issues. I spent about 10 minutes playing around with pipeline and did not have the same feel of "openness" that I did in Natural Selection. The entire map looks cool in general, but I fear that the excessive approach from a design perspective will tarnish the playability the original had/has. We will have to see how it turn out in the long run.
P.S - I just hope the map rotations aren't packed with remakes in 1.0 but rather consist of newly structured, balanced, high performance maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1893437:date=Jan 10 2012, 11:01 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Jan 10 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haven't checked in for a while, but always look forward to your updates! Hopefully Pipeline hive will actually have pipes in this version ;D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ns_veil had 2 whole pipes (I think) in pipeline-hive (tucked away at the back-entrance).
Pipeline always sounded to me more like a straight flow which should be guided round the area with presence, sort of similar to oil pipelines which are direct as opposed to messy angled junction fmpone has taken on. I guess it does more for the aesthetics even if it doesn't do the function, it'll be interesting to see his take on it when it is completed.
<!--quoteo(post=1893439:date=Jan 10 2012, 06:03 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Jan 10 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You believe a lot of wacky things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Say what you may my old friend, but understand that ns_veil was arguably the best NS1 map for one main reason, balance.
Please, don't forget how much balance is important to making a map successful. I'm not mapper, but I have played competitive games since Quake. Whether its Quake, Warcraft 2 BNE, Starcraft or Counter-Strike 1.6, the effectiveness of how successful a games multiplayer (which NS2 is solely reliant on) ends up being is based off the balance and effectiveness of the environments in which the users plays in. If all the maps are beautiful but they are not balanced, users will not consistently play the game.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1893441:date=Jan 11 2012, 12:07 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 11 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns_veil had 2 whole pipes (I think) in pipeline-hive (tucked away at the back-entrance).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's his point. Pipeline didn't really have any pipes.
One of the things I notice is people want an exact remake of the veil map. From my knowledge of mapping, every NS mapper had to remove/not include a lot of things from the map they would like to have included because of engine limitations. I know that feeling from my limited NS1 mapping experience.
Maybe pipeline would have had lots of pipes had the engine been able to handle models well, or complex geometry, but it couldn't. Personally I don't want to see the exact same map, I want to see the map as it could be, freed from the limitations placed upon it by the Goldsrc engine. It's like TF2 and TF. People were expecting the same game on newer tech, but the old game was only that way because of bugs and limitations in the Goldsrc engine, the way the game turned out was never the designers intention, and TF2 was made without those limitations, and something closer to the original idea of the designer was created, although with it's own set of bugs and limitations from the latest tech.
A new tech means a chance to add the stuff that was never able to be put in the old map, not to just do the same map with higher res textures. I am looking forward to ns "2" veil. The 2 signifies a different story. When I see 2, I expect shinier and better, not just shinier.
Also, how balanced is ns_veil for Drifters, MAC's, flamethrowers, ARC's, Whips and Hydra's, with an alien commander and with random spawns for all teams? It has to be different because the gameplay is different, that's just the way it goes. If an EXACT replica port of ns_veil was balanced in NS2 I'd be shocked, to say the least.
Looking at Veil I wouldn't say it was the engine limitations in terms of complexity but simplicity that caused it to be lesser detailed in pipeline.
Due to the sheer size of the map, when it was created I can only assume it was kept a little bit simpler visually because it may have hit that max_leaf_faces* problem, so rather than detailing half the map it looks as though it was given only the visuals it needed to identify an area rather than making it 50/50 detailed, it was sparsely done. Which is very smart.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
Compare the popular NS1 maps to the unpopular NS1 maps (ns_veil to ns_machina, ns_tanith to ns_altair, ns_origin to ns_agora); what do you see? It should be pretty obvious that making your map dark, and generally focusing on aesthetics over gameplay considerations, is a bad idea if you want people to actually play it in the long run.
That's not to say that dark, atmospheric maps that focus on aesthetics don't have their place. Turning the most popular, brightly lit and uncluttered map from the original game into one of those maps however?
<!--quoteo(post=1893451:date=Jan 11 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A new tech means a chance to add the stuff that was never able to be put in the old map, not to just do the same map with higher res textures. I am looking forward to ns "2" veil. The 2 signifies a different story. When I see 2, I expect shinier and better, not just shinier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ns_veil went through many iterations from the first 3.0beta all the way until 3.2, and changed significantly over the years. It seems only natural that there are going to be even more changes introduced when it is "remade" for the sequel. That is all fine and good. The problem arises when the remake throws the things that made the original popular in the first place out the window. What's the point then? If fmpone wants to make a map that is largely ns_veil only in name, he should call it something different and come up with his own layout.
Often a limitation of resources is what leads to an excellent product, it forces you to think about the necessity of every little thing in your map, which in the end greatly benefited gameplay. Now with NS2 I've more often than not seen maps that have been shoved full of ###### serving no purpose at all other than aesthetics\atmosphere (and doesn't even do a good job at that). I'd rather see the computing power of today's machines spent on things that do not otherwise interfere with gameplay (higher-polycount on everything, expensive lighting, highres-textures et cetera).
Very quick to accept praise, very reluctant to respond to criticism.
To sum up what I can gather,
- It's not bright enough - Possibly too many unnecessary props/clutter - The exact lay out may not suit NS2 gameplay - pipes may need simplifying - less style more substance
^ That's just off the last hour or so. Feedback for yourself, although it would be nice to hear what you think back and how you may lead in a direction on Veil. It's nice to have community discussion in such topics. I believe psyk0man gained a great deal from back and forth.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
There isn't much back and forth to be had with people who've never played the map, unfortunately. A lot of your comments I've already addressed by the time you make them, so the go to thing remains, wait and we'll see.
The most relevant thing is still the brightness, but I've taken pains to make sure visibility won't being a problem, frankly. I see your many thoughtful posts as limited in information but still full of consideration and that's a sign to me that people care and are concerned about the final product. Good. Hopefully a video in the future will provide more accurate information.
JUST to put this whole subject to rest, I don't want the map to be too bright, I want it to be just right. I don't want the map to have no props, I want it to be just right. I don't want it to be too ugly, I want it to be just right. Just right takes maybe 3 iterations, so if you expect a perfect first version, don't.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893457:date=Jan 11 2012, 02:22 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Jan 11 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of what you seem to think the map is, the map isn't. This is easily solved by waiting for the map to be released.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough. I'm only making my comments based on the screenshots you have posted though, so if you wanted to show how that's wrong you should probably post some screenshots doing just that.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893460:date=Jan 10 2012, 08:57 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 10 2012, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fair enough. I'm only making my comments based on the screenshots you have posted though, so if you wanted to show how that's wrong you should probably post some screenshots doing just that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want that. Post whatever you guys want, this is just where I'm coming from.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893455:date=Jan 11 2012, 02:09 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 11 2012, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Often a limitation of resources is what leads to an excellent product, it forces you to think about the necessity of every little thing in your map, which in the end greatly benefited gameplay. Now with NS2 I've more often than not seen maps that have been shoved full of ###### serving no purpose at all other than aesthetics\atmosphere (and doesn't even do a good job at that). I'd rather see the computing power of today's machines spent on things that do not otherwise interfere with gameplay (higher-polycount on everything, expensive lighting, highres-textures et cetera).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spark engine is designed as a primarily model based level, much like source. It uses BSP geometry of course, but it is designed for a high model usage, rather than detailed geometry, this means almost everything inside the level is a model. This has the benefits of looking better than textured geometry and being less computationally expensive.
Aesthetics/atmosphere is one of the key things in the NS universe. NS takes a lot of inspiration from films such as alien, and they are trying to apply this to a game. NS1 was as atmospheric as they could get it, but the engine didn't even have dynamic lighting.
I don't understand what you want from a computer game? Higher polycount models? but you don't want any props? So it will be very nice player models running around in expensive lighting? Illuminating what? High Res Textures on BSP geometry, like a high-res, well lit HL1? It's just too expensive for detailed geometry, which is why the maps are all full of models.
Unknown Worlds want to create an atmospheric environment, that's why in the tools release they put atmospheric tools there.
I don't know you, but I get the impression you may be a competitive player, in which case, I understand you wouldn't want atmosphere and light/dark, but when a mapper makes a map, he has to think who his specific target is. At the moment, I believe every mapper on here is trying to make a map that fits what they believe the Dev's want for official release, and that includes lot's of competitive gaming unfriendly atmosphere and aesthetics :)
NS seeks to be mildly scary and frightening, to create a sense of terror. When playing competitively, people want to remain cool calm clear and focused, so the very design ideal of the game goes against that part of competitive play.
That is one part of competitive play I never have understood, why take all the atmosphere out of the game? Would competitive players stop paintballing in the woods and move to an indoor well lit arena because the atmosphere outside wasn't competitive friendly? I always thought that playing with and against the environment was part of the challenge, and it's not like it is only one person affected. Everyone experiences the same atmosphere, so there is no competitive advantage. It's funny it's only in multiplayer games there seems to be a need to get rid of the atmospherics, they are accepted as fine in a single player game.
With the engine being DX9 currently, unless you have a really old system there is no reason for anyone to struggle, no matter how much the mappers try and overload it with aesthetics.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know you, but I get the impression you may be a competitive player, in which case, I understand you wouldn't want atmosphere and light/dark, but when a mapper makes a map, he has to think who his specific target is. At the moment, I believe every mapper on here is trying to make a map that fits what they believe the Dev's want for official release, and that includes lot's of competitive gaming unfriendly atmosphere and aesthetics :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The brightly lit, simplistic maps in NS1 were almost as overwhelmingly popular in public play as they were in competitive play. This isn't a public vs. competitive issue -- it rarely is, some people just like to make it seem like it is so they don't actually have to make a coherent argument with regards to gameplay.
One thing that is often brought up on these forums, which confuses me a lot, is the idea that "competitive players" are playing a different game than everyone else. Apparently it hasn't dawned on some that multiplayer games are competitive by their nature. If you don't want to play in a competitive environment, you should go play a single player game or a social interaction simulator camouflaged as a multiplayer game (wow, tor and most other mmorpgs). It would make more sense to refer to the "competitive players" as "organized players" instead, because that's really what sets them apart from the "public players".
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is one part of competitive play I never have understood, why take all the atmosphere out of the game? Would competitive players stop paintballing in the woods and move to an indoor well lit arena because the atmosphere outside wasn't competitive friendly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny thing you should mention paintball, since playing it in the woods is more or less exclusive to casual/scenario players these days. Competitive players play <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mini-100_2620.jpg" target="_blank">speedball/airball</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought that playing with and against the environment was part of the challenge, and it's not like it is only one person affected. Everyone experiences the same atmosphere, so there is no competitive advantage. It's funny it's only in multiplayer games there seems to be a need to get rid of the atmospherics, they are accepted as fine in a single player game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the same reason you don't play football in a potato field or have swimming competitions in the ocean. For competitive play you want to remove as many random variables as possible to reduce the element of luck and to make it more spectator friendly.
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the engine being DX9 currently, unless you have a really old system there is no reason for anyone to struggle, no matter how much the mappers try and overload it with aesthetics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have fundamentally misinterpreted the argument he was making.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
I'm more of a competitive player than a mapper, but I know enough that even if you remake a map, you still need to adjust it in terms of scale for playability to match the current game dynamics of NS2.
To be quite frank, I don't really see the point of making a direct copy of a map from NS1 or any other game, because NS2 works differently and those are factors that have to be always kept in mind. It's fine to be inspired by a map from somewhere else because you like the feel of the movement and the range of strategic possibilities, but at the end of the day, a map is not just a piece of art - the primary function is to provide a fun and free environment for players to show the full range of their skills.
Every design decision you make as a mapper should have a gameplay scenario in mind. While I'm mapping, I'm constantly imagining how I would use the room as a skulk or marine. My map is inspired by CS_Dust, not copied and not to scale, but from memory, and I've added skulk vents and extra side rooms to account for the different play styles of each side. It was a <b>starting</b> point for inspiration, but if you overlay my map with the original Dust, they would not align at all, and it would be completely unrecognisable as being based on Dust to 99% of people.
As for balance, I don't know - that's always going to be something that you can only find out through testing. Basic balance considerations might be just measuring the time it takes for each team to travel to the other team's start, hives or resources, and keeping most hallways short, making longer routes less risky, and shorter routes with more risk. These are things that any competent player will notice when they play a map.
I don't claim to be a good mapper, I map because I love the game, and I'm a competitive player who works hard to be good.
Comments
You mean an unauthorized fork of fmpone's veil? I'm hoping people won't have the bad taste to go running that on their servers.
As for the brightness, I would agree (I think I already mentioned it before), but instead of asking mappers to brighten up their maps, I'm waiting for a gamma\brightness option to be put into the engine so the more competitive\regular players could do away with the darkness and mandatory flashlights. The bright veil people know is mostly due to high brightness-settings plus some gammaramp and whatnot.
As for the brightness, I would agree (I think I already mentioned it before), but instead of asking mappers to brighten up their maps, I'm waiting for a gamma\brightness option to be put into the engine so the more competitive\regular players could do away with the darkness and mandatory flashlights. The bright veil people know is mostly due to high brightness-settings plus some gammaramp and whatnot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just externally with your graphics card control panel.
Lot's of people made dust remakes, assault remakes etc. for CS. Some of them were very fun.
Don't go knocking someone building on a foundation, it's more than fine, all you do is credit the original author for the majority of the work and say "here's my twist". I'd never discourage that from mappers, particularly the new to mapping kind who need that sort of experience of editing.
Don't go knocking someone building on a foundation, it's more than fine, all you do is credit the original author for the majority of the work and say "here's my twist". I'd never discourage that from mappers, particularly the new to mapping kind who need that sort of experience of editing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not without implicit (a general o.k to the mapping-community), or otherwise explicit permission. Mucking about with a map on your own hard-drive (and listen-server) is fine, but putting something out (into the public area) with zero consideration of the original author seems like a pretty ###### move to me (regardless if you put a "here's my twist"-sticker on it). That's my take anyway, noone'll get sued over it.
The problem with competitive players is that they don't care if it looks like poop <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><i><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <-- tongue in cheek smiley, please holster your pitchforks and torches!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
[edit-off-topic]
Also how does dust fit into the gameplay of NS is what I want to know... Sure it "flows" for CS and could have the same effect for NS, but melee vs ranged is still a big deciding factor, I don't see it working all that well on dust...
[edit-off-topic]
Also how does dust fit into the gameplay of NS is what I want to know... Sure it "flows" for CS and could have the same effect for NS, but melee vs ranged is still a big deciding factor, I don't see it working all that well on dust...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't really get it did you?
It's talking about a design sense not a game sense. What I've said is you get rehashes of maps in all games, normally created by the learning mappers. Dust/Assault in CS, 2fort in TF, two towers in UT so forth. It's about a design spin not about how CS applies to NS, this is a mapping forum after all and I expected another mapper as yourself to make the obvious creative link,
I think the map looks great in some areas, but in most areas, balance and playability were not taken into consideration. Hence the reason Shawn hasn't been able to produce a map of his own layout to date. Everything he has put out is based off of concept art he finds (He actually posted a video of him mapping to concept art) which is not the approach to take in a game heavily relying on balance.
I'm worried that what was once a great idea (veil remake), might turn into a problem in terms of balance and functionality. I do recall going back-and-forth with Shawn to remove a large container that was consuming half of a hallway in the early stages of the map. Shawn, at the time, seemed to be more interested in how it looked than how it will play out in the game itself. Shawn ended up removing it, but it took a lot of feedback before he considered accepting that the game mechanics sometimes trumps the art aspect in designing environments for games. Shawn just needs to focus less on the the art perspective and more on the balance, performance, playability and replay factor of the map.
In response to Yuuki:
Pipeline looks cool, all the pipes going all over the place. But, when I think of how it will play out in the game as it stands, I see those pipes creating issues. I spent about 10 minutes playing around with pipeline and did not have the same feel of "openness" that I did in Natural Selection. The entire map looks cool in general, but I fear that the excessive approach from a design perspective will tarnish the playability the original had/has. We will have to see how it turn out in the long run.
P.S - I just hope the map rotations aren't packed with remakes in 1.0 but rather consist of newly structured, balanced, high performance maps.
I'm just saying, by trying to learn to map for NS2 of all games (biggest mapping challenge compared to most games) using maps from games that are completely different as a foundation, will only teach you the basics of mapping. Something that is obviously important, but it wont teach you how to map for NS(2), there is a BIG difference where gameplay is concerned. So yeah, why not learn to map for NS2 using NS as an example and not CS/Quake/UT(x) and such...
You can be the most creative person alive with the classics from other games, but it wont teach you anything about the gameplay/flow, which is afaik the biggest part of NS(2) mapping with a side-dish of awesome visuals :P
I'm just saying, by trying to learn to map for NS2 of all games (biggest mapping challenge compared to most games) using maps from games that are completely different as a foundation, will only teach you the basics of mapping. Something that is obviously important, but it wont teach you how to map for NS(2), there is a BIG difference where gameplay is concerned. So yeah, why not learn to map for NS2 using NS as an example and not CS/Quake/UT(x) and such...
You can be the most creative person alive with the classics from other games, but it wont teach you anything about the gameplay/flow, which is afaik the biggest part of NS(2) mapping with a side-dish of awesome visuals :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Kouji_San :)
What I think he means is that in counter-strike, mappers learning to map, often rip apart and learn de_dust, and release their own spin on it, as an introduction to mapping. Mappers learning TF would do a take on 2forts, and mappers learning UT would do a remake of facing worlds. He is saying that as the level files are currently not secure, mappers learning to map may just rip from fmpone's veil remake, and remake it themselves, as it was a popular map for the game type, like de_dust for CS and 2forts for TF. He is not suggesting anything about using those maps to learn to map for NS, he is talking about new NS mappers ripping the open access level file of the ns2_veil remake and doing their own take on that.
He is saying this is ok for learning, saying this is what has happened in those other games and should NS2 become as popular as we hope, then the same may happen here, particularly if people feel the remake isn't quite right, they may do their own corrections, as it is such a popular map.
That's what I understood from his posts, and I hope that clears up the miscommunication I sensed between you two :)
I think the map looks great in some areas, but in most areas, balance and playability were not taken into consideration. Hence the reason Shawn hasn't been able to produce a map of his own layout to date. Everything he has put out is based off of concept art he finds (He actually posted a video of him mapping to concept art) which is not the approach to take in a game heavily relying on balance.
I'm worried that what was once a great idea (veil remake), might turn into a problem in terms of balance and functionality. I do recall going back-and-forth with Shawn to remove a large container that was consuming half of a hallway in the early stages of the map. Shawn, at the time, seemed to be more interested in how it looked than how it will play out in the game itself. Shawn ended up removing it, but it took a lot of feedback before he considered accepting that the game mechanics sometimes trumps the art aspect in designing environments for games. Shawn just needs to focus less on the the art perspective and more on the balance, performance, playability and replay factor of the map.
In response to Yuuki:
Pipeline looks cool, all the pipes going all over the place. But, when I think of how it will play out in the game as it stands, I see those pipes creating issues. I spent about 10 minutes playing around with pipeline and did not have the same feel of "openness" that I did in Natural Selection. The entire map looks cool in general, but I fear that the excessive approach from a design perspective will tarnish the playability the original had/has. We will have to see how it turn out in the long run.
P.S - I just hope the map rotations aren't packed with remakes in 1.0 but rather consist of newly structured, balanced, high performance maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You believe a lot of wacky things.
ns_veil had 2 whole pipes (I think) in pipeline-hive (tucked away at the back-entrance).
Say what you may my old friend, but understand that ns_veil was arguably the best NS1 map for one main reason, balance.
Please, don't forget how much balance is important to making a map successful. I'm not mapper, but I have played competitive games since Quake. Whether its Quake, Warcraft 2 BNE, Starcraft or Counter-Strike 1.6, the effectiveness of how successful a games multiplayer (which NS2 is solely reliant on) ends up being is based off the balance and effectiveness of the environments in which the users plays in. If all the maps are beautiful but they are not balanced, users will not consistently play the game.
Just think about it, that's all I'm saying...
I think that's his point. Pipeline didn't really have any pipes.
One of the things I notice is people want an exact remake of the veil map. From my knowledge of mapping, every NS mapper had to remove/not include a lot of things from the map they would like to have included because of engine limitations. I know that feeling from my limited NS1 mapping experience.
Maybe pipeline would have had lots of pipes had the engine been able to handle models well, or complex geometry, but it couldn't. Personally I don't want to see the exact same map, I want to see the map as it could be, freed from the limitations placed upon it by the Goldsrc engine. It's like TF2 and TF. People were expecting the same game on newer tech, but the old game was only that way because of bugs and limitations in the Goldsrc engine, the way the game turned out was never the designers intention, and TF2 was made without those limitations, and something closer to the original idea of the designer was created, although with it's own set of bugs and limitations from the latest tech.
A new tech means a chance to add the stuff that was never able to be put in the old map, not to just do the same map with higher res textures. I am looking forward to ns "2" veil. The 2 signifies a different story. When I see 2, I expect shinier and better, not just shinier.
Also, how balanced is ns_veil for Drifters, MAC's, flamethrowers, ARC's, Whips and Hydra's, with an alien commander and with random spawns for all teams? It has to be different because the gameplay is different, that's just the way it goes. If an EXACT replica port of ns_veil was balanced in NS2 I'd be shocked, to say the least.
Due to the sheer size of the map, when it was created I can only assume it was kept a little bit simpler visually because it may have hit that max_leaf_faces* problem, so rather than detailing half the map it looks as though it was given only the visuals it needed to identify an area rather than making it 50/50 detailed, it was sparsely done. Which is very smart.
*Original was wrong engine xD
That's not to say that dark, atmospheric maps that focus on aesthetics don't have their place. Turning the most popular, brightly lit and uncluttered map from the original game into one of those maps however?
<!--quoteo(post=1893451:date=Jan 11 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A new tech means a chance to add the stuff that was never able to be put in the old map, not to just do the same map with higher res textures. I am looking forward to ns "2" veil. The 2 signifies a different story. When I see 2, I expect shinier and better, not just shinier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns_veil went through many iterations from the first 3.0beta all the way until 3.2, and changed significantly over the years. It seems only natural that there are going to be even more changes introduced when it is "remade" for the sequel. That is all fine and good. The problem arises when the remake throws the things that made the original popular in the first place out the window. What's the point then? If fmpone wants to make a map that is largely ns_veil only in name, he should call it something different and come up with his own layout.
To sum up what I can gather,
- It's not bright enough
- Possibly too many unnecessary props/clutter
- The exact lay out may not suit NS2 gameplay
- pipes may need simplifying
- less style more substance
^ That's just off the last hour or so. Feedback for yourself, although it would be nice to hear what you think back and how you may lead in a direction on Veil. It's nice to have community discussion in such topics. I believe psyk0man gained a great deal from back and forth.
The most relevant thing is still the brightness, but I've taken pains to make sure visibility won't being a problem, frankly. I see your many thoughtful posts as limited in information but still full of consideration and that's a sign to me that people care and are concerned about the final product. Good. Hopefully a video in the future will provide more accurate information.
JUST to put this whole subject to rest, I don't want the map to be too bright, I want it to be just right. I don't want the map to have no props, I want it to be just right. I don't want it to be too ugly, I want it to be just right. Just right takes maybe 3 iterations, so if you expect a perfect first version, don't.
Fair enough. I'm only making my comments based on the screenshots you have posted though, so if you wanted to show how that's wrong you should probably post some screenshots doing just that.
I don't want that. Post whatever you guys want, this is just where I'm coming from.
Spark engine is designed as a primarily model based level, much like source. It uses BSP geometry of course, but it is designed for a high model usage, rather than detailed geometry, this means almost everything inside the level is a model. This has the benefits of looking better than textured geometry and being less computationally expensive.
Aesthetics/atmosphere is one of the key things in the NS universe. NS takes a lot of inspiration from films such as alien, and they are trying to apply this to a game. NS1 was as atmospheric as they could get it, but the engine didn't even have dynamic lighting.
I don't understand what you want from a computer game? Higher polycount models? but you don't want any props? So it will be very nice player models running around in expensive lighting? Illuminating what? High Res Textures on BSP geometry, like a high-res, well lit HL1? It's just too expensive for detailed geometry, which is why the maps are all full of models.
Unknown Worlds want to create an atmospheric environment, that's why in the tools release they put atmospheric tools there.
I don't know you, but I get the impression you may be a competitive player, in which case, I understand you wouldn't want atmosphere and light/dark, but when a mapper makes a map, he has to think who his specific target is. At the moment, I believe every mapper on here is trying to make a map that fits what they believe the Dev's want for official release, and that includes lot's of competitive gaming unfriendly atmosphere and aesthetics :)
NS seeks to be mildly scary and frightening, to create a sense of terror. When playing competitively, people want to remain cool calm clear and focused, so the very design ideal of the game goes against that part of competitive play.
That is one part of competitive play I never have understood, why take all the atmosphere out of the game? Would competitive players stop paintballing in the woods and move to an indoor well lit arena because the atmosphere outside wasn't competitive friendly? I always thought that playing with and against the environment was part of the challenge, and it's not like it is only one person affected. Everyone experiences the same atmosphere, so there is no competitive advantage. It's funny it's only in multiplayer games there seems to be a need to get rid of the atmospherics, they are accepted as fine in a single player game.
With the engine being DX9 currently, unless you have a really old system there is no reason for anyone to struggle, no matter how much the mappers try and overload it with aesthetics.
No it doesn't.
How BSP Works: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_space_partitioning" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_space_partitioning</a>
How spark renders: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/3occlusion_culling" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009...clusion_culling</a> & <a href="http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/research/publications/2008/mattausch-2008-CHC/" target="_blank">http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/research/public...ausch-2008-CHC/</a>
The brightly lit, simplistic maps in NS1 were almost as overwhelmingly popular in public play as they were in competitive play. This isn't a public vs. competitive issue -- it rarely is, some people just like to make it seem like it is so they don't actually have to make a coherent argument with regards to gameplay.
One thing that is often brought up on these forums, which confuses me a lot, is the idea that "competitive players" are playing a different game than everyone else. Apparently it hasn't dawned on some that multiplayer games are competitive by their nature. If you don't want to play in a competitive environment, you should go play a single player game or a social interaction simulator camouflaged as a multiplayer game (wow, tor and most other mmorpgs). It would make more sense to refer to the "competitive players" as "organized players" instead, because that's really what sets them apart from the "public players".
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is one part of competitive play I never have understood, why take all the atmosphere out of the game? Would competitive players stop paintballing in the woods and move to an indoor well lit arena because the atmosphere outside wasn't competitive friendly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny thing you should mention paintball, since playing it in the woods is more or less exclusive to casual/scenario players these days. Competitive players play <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mini-100_2620.jpg" target="_blank">speedball/airball</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought that playing with and against the environment was part of the challenge, and it's not like it is only one person affected. Everyone experiences the same atmosphere, so there is no competitive advantage. It's funny it's only in multiplayer games there seems to be a need to get rid of the atmospherics, they are accepted as fine in a single player game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the same reason you don't play football in a potato field or have swimming competitions in the ocean. For competitive play you want to remove as many random variables as possible to reduce the element of luck and to make it more spectator friendly.
<!--quoteo(post=1893462:date=Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the engine being DX9 currently, unless you have a really old system there is no reason for anyone to struggle, no matter how much the mappers try and overload it with aesthetics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have fundamentally misinterpreted the argument he was making.
To be quite frank, I don't really see the point of making a direct copy of a map from NS1 or any other game, because NS2 works differently and those are factors that have to be always kept in mind. It's fine to be inspired by a map from somewhere else because you like the feel of the movement and the range of strategic possibilities, but at the end of the day, a map is not just a piece of art - the primary function is to provide a fun and free environment for players to show the full range of their skills.
Every design decision you make as a mapper should have a gameplay scenario in mind. While I'm mapping, I'm constantly imagining how I would use the room as a skulk or marine. My map is inspired by CS_Dust, not copied and not to scale, but from memory, and I've added skulk vents and extra side rooms to account for the different play styles of each side. It was a <b>starting</b> point for inspiration, but if you overlay my map with the original Dust, they would not align at all, and it would be completely unrecognisable as being based on Dust to 99% of people.
As for balance, I don't know - that's always going to be something that you can only find out through testing. Basic balance considerations might be just measuring the time it takes for each team to travel to the other team's start, hives or resources, and keeping most hallways short, making longer routes less risky, and shorter routes with more risk. These are things that any competent player will notice when they play a map.
I don't claim to be a good mapper, I map because I love the game, and I'm a competitive player who works hard to be good.