<!--quoteo(post=1874229:date=Sep 11 2011, 11:37 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 11 2011, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->20-20 hindsight required though!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really. I think most people associate Flash with buggy\slow\crash-prone, so you kinda could've seen the removal of that coming. Whether it was a good idea to write the majority of the game in a script you also could see as a bit risky, as that isn't really common practice. More research into the problems of using that was warranted (I wish I wish I wish it was C++, Lua is a pain to work with).
Having said that, the game currently is in a playable state (horrific performance notwithstanding), so I'm pretty confident it will see _some_ kind of release, or rather, I'd find it hard to believe UWE's (<u><b>HYPOTHETICAL</b></u>) bankruptcy would take NS2 with it, it's just too unique a game to die that easily.
I'm very glad to hear there's some kind of internal release-schedule though, it will help pull the game through it's development and not have it be delayed for some superfluous feature.
I really dont get this b*tching. Especially you konata, if your not happy about what you have now why not ask your money back instead of just complaining about it?
Im not attacking anyone here but for god sake, dont act like UWE is picking their nose all day, a year has past since the engine came to live, a YEAR!
Activision (god help me for bringing up this piece of junk of a title, but for the time span for this comparison this will do) releases a new CoD every yeah, it takes them a year with a fairly large team and funds from being part of a large company to just write the campaign OR the multiplayer, because most of the time they even split that up. Now, a normal company works longer on a single game NOT EVER haven to create their own engine most of the time, or having their own engine but even then it was made by a different team (TEAM, not 1 guy).
And to even put that in perspective, ID Software first showed their new IDTech 5 engine in 2007, that means they have been working on it already BEFORE that, they are about to release their FIRST game on it.
UWE so far, being an indie company, is making an engine and game from scratch, something a lot of other big studios dont even consider doing. Why? because they consider it a longterm investment. Look at Valve, they first leased the quake engine but build their own from there, and now look... they are still using their own engine and all they have to do is update it now and then. No need to pay other companies for half their earnings, no problems with not understanding how systems work, not having do deal with any outside companies,...
So for them just taking 1 year to get this far on their first ever real indie game is just amazing, sure they have (had) problems, but you cant expect people to learn to do something from the ground up without making mistakes, without trying stuff and just expecting it to work on the first try.
They aren't just making a game, they are making an engine AND a game at the same time, sure its a daring move but once its done they dont need sh1t from anyone and they have everything in place for any other game they might plan for the future.
Side note btw: Has anyone noticed how bugged to pieces Dead Island was when it was released? A game with a bigger team and more money then UWE has. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, basically the game just wasnt done when it was released, meaning when you pre-ordered it you payed for a game that was still in development. hmmmm, sounds familiar.... paying for a game that isn't done yet....
Yet even after paying no one got to play the dev version of the game... Yet even after paying no one got to influence anything about the game...
Pre-ordering the game, and the buy page clearly says pre-ordering, not "becoming shareholder" or "becoming investor" does not warrant anyone to act like they own the place (look at NS2HD's post if you still dont get it) <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114895&st=100&p=1874217&#entry1874217" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1874217</a> UWE doesn't owe you anything other then a game called NS2. And when will you get it? As soon as its done, the pre-order page never stated a different time then that (Full game on Steam when done) So honestly, imo, if you really cant take the waiting and stuff anyone, for god sake, ask your money back, so many here have been waiting from the very beginning, so why suddenly the rage and bullsh1tting around? Its not like Duke Nukem where you just didn't hear anything from the game anymore, the devs release a patch every few weeks with a MASSIVE change log.
<!--quoteo(post=1874244:date=Sep 12 2011, 12:24 AM:name=Dragon-Guard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dragon-Guard @ Sep 12 2011, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really dont get this b*tching. Especially you konata, if your not happy about what you have now why not ask your money back instead of just complaining about it?
Im not attacking anyone here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed, clearly with the first 2 lines i am, thats why the that line is placed AFTER that. After that its just a reminder of what maybe its that obvious to everyone, ive been raging about many things lately, im stuck without RAM in my desktop (RMA to OCZ, new one shipping in from Taiwan to the netherlands, should be here next week), i just CANT wait for skyrim, DotA2 or GuildWars2 and im pumped to get my hands on some new Maya stuff once University starts again. So i know its easy to lose sight on things, so I'm trying to give everyone a figurative slap across the face, not aimed at anyone, anyone can take it the way they want.
<!--quoteo(post=1874244:date=Sep 12 2011, 01:24 AM:name=Dragon-Guard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dragon-Guard @ Sep 12 2011, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to even put that in perspective, ID Software first showed their new IDTech 5 engine in 2007, that means they have been working on it already BEFORE that, they are about to release their FIRST game on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really the best comparison, id-Tech engines have an immense amount of polish going on, they're pretty famous for it actually (rock-solid, each and every one of em).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE so far, being an indie company, is making an engine and game from scratch, something a lot of other big studios dont even consider doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure Spark was written completely from scratch, there was story of how it came to be quite some time before NS2 was in question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? because they consider it a longterm investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah I'm not so sure about Spark being a sought after engine to acquire, id-Tech and the Unreal-engines are more likely candidates (or Source as you're mentioning).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at Valve, they first leased the quake engine but build their own from there, and now look... they are still using their own engine and all they have to do is update it now and then. No need to pay other companies for half their earnings, no problems with not understanding how systems work, not having do deal with any outside companies,...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Source-engine is a descendant of the Gldsource-engine, which in turns is an accumelation of customized Quake 1 & 2-code, not really from scratch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So for them just taking 1 year to get this far on their first ever real indie game is just amazing, sure they have (had) problems, but you cant expect people to learn to do something from the ground up without making mistakes, without trying stuff and just expecting it to work on the first try.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well like I mentioned Spark may in fact be a little older than that. NS2 certainly has been in development longer I would imagine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Side note btw: Has anyone noticed how bugged to pieces Dead Island was when it was released? A game with a bigger team and more money then UWE has. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, basically the game just wasnt done when it was released, meaning when you pre-ordered it you payed for a game that was still in development. hmmmm, sounds familiar.... paying for a game that isn't done yet....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, they put up a dev-build by accident I guess, not really indicative of a crummy product. But even then, such nasty little bugs are likely to pop up when such a massive release is made. Tens of thousands of people are play-testing it at once, problems are likely to pop up. I needn't sketch an image of what would happen if NS2 were to be put on Steam as a release right now, the critique would be legendary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pre-ordering the game, and the buy page clearly says pre-ordering, not "becoming shareholder" or "becoming investor" does not warrant anyone to act like they own the place (look at NS2HD's post if you still dont get it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People look back at NS with nostalgia, emotions tend to occur, I wouldn't make too big a deal out of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE doesn't owe you anything other then a game called NS2. And when will you get it? As soon as its done, the pre-order page never stated a different time then that (Full game on Steam when done)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I recall something beginning with "Fall" when I pre-ordered, though I'm no longer sure of the time-line anymore. Suffice it to say the release-date has gone a bit off the rails. But I'm not complaining about this, I can wait for a game that has no other equal right now.
Someone should set up a sub-forum entitled "Premature Armchair Postmortems" where we can lock away every thread filled with posts about "all of UWE's blunders" and "what went wrong."
<!--quoteo(post=1874249:date=Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not really the best comparison, id-Tech engines have an immense amount of polish going on, they're pretty famous for it actually (rock-solid, each and every one of em).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know that, but considering the time and teamsize difference there is so far you would be alowed to assume that much, at the least, but for a years work, or somewhat longer, but the first working engine testwas a year ago, they havent done a bad job for such a small team with limited funds.
<!--quoteo(post=1874249:date=Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I'm not so sure about Spark being a sought after engine to acquire, id-Tech and the Unreal-engines are more likely candidates (or Source as you're mentioning).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah but i wasnt even talking about leasing it to anyone else yet, just to have their own engine once its done is already a huge advantage to have for themselfs
<!--quoteo(post=1874249:date=Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People look back at NS with nostalgia, emotions tend to occur, I wouldn't make too big a deal out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ofcource, i understand that as well, I used to play ns1 as well, i have waited a long time like everyone else. But we shouldnt forget that UWE is still working on things as hard as they can and that its THEIR company to make or break, not ours. And this being their first independent "steps" its not strange that they make mistakes, yet some comments just trow trash at them regardless of that they have achieved so far.
This is the most depressing thread I've seen on this forum. It's a game. It'll get done when it's done, and if it sucks then just don't send money to UWE next time. Grow up.
<!--quoteo(post=1874210:date=Sep 11 2011, 09:19 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then react like human beings. Admit you never foreseen it to take this long and your direction has been wrong but you are learning. Rather than reassuring us with false hope. I never seem to see admittance of error, only the "positive spin" to get you out of saying "Hey we were wrong!".
I think we're just looking for you to hold your hands up before you give us the politicians speech and spin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of have to agree here.
Whether or not you realise it, when you ask for things like 'have faith that we'll get it done' and particularly when you do things like sell pre-orders, start endorsing overly-positive views of the game like the NS2HD channel, put up a fancy website designed to make the game look professional, all of these are things I would associate with big professional games companies, companies that have all the money, staff, and time they need to make the games, companies where there isn't really any doubt that when they show a prototype 2 years ahead of release at E3 or something, you can be pretty sure the game will actually look like that when it's done, and you can also be pretty sure when you preorder it a year or so ahead of time, that you'll get the finished game within a month or two of the release date.
Essentially you seem to be trying to project an image generally associated with big companies, the problem with that however is that if you're going to do that and reap the benefits, you also have to accept the responsibility, you have to accept that people will throw all the crap at you they throw at everyone else, they will expect everything to be done when it's supposed to be done, and they will accuse you of being a bunch of idiots if things aren't working as well as they'd like.
Basically, you can't act all smooth and professional to get pre-orders in, then turn round and say 'oh please we're only a little team don't hurt our feelings' when it turns sour. At least, not without someone calling you on it. It comes across as very manipulative, or as said, something you associate with politicians and other untrustworthy sorts.
If you seek to cultivate an air of professionalism, you really cannot complain when people call you on being unprofessional, which is exactly what jumping on flippant remarks and 'this would never fly in a real industry setting' constitute.
Some ppl are acting like they can speak for everybody...
Its not UWEs fault that you are blending yourself with false expectations, and its not the majority. (my guess at least, otherwise there would be A LOT more threads like that and not only 10 ppl talking)
Or why do i see everything different? Im happy with the "alpha"(aka beta) and progress, i understand that they are working on different stuff and cant just throw out features, or only focus on a single thing. I understand how this open developing process is working by now. They try to be in touch with us.
Every other game company would just complealty ignore this forum, only some crappy mods would play god here, ban some trolls and give a message that they will tell your suggestion or request to the developers. (yea sure...)
<b>If you cant handle how uwe is doing their business - playsomething else until 1.0 or request a refund.</b>
Kouiji you genius! I forgot to tell you that part of the story! While I was in my armchair, (Remember guys, I was commanding the biggest battle!!) I found I had perfect 20-20 hindsight.
I mean normally I have terrible short sightedness. I'm so short sighted I can't see forests, only the trees!
But who cares. This was a big battle. And I was in my comfy armchair. And I had <b>perfect</b> hindsight.
<!--quoteo(post=1874043:date=Sep 10 2011, 07:40 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 10 2011, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well players funded part of the game haven't they with pre-orders? And the game isn't fully released? They probably should be seen as shareholders, without the preorder money, they wouldn't be here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no... no... just no. You gave money in exchange for a promise you'd get the game when it comes out. They even let you play their test builds. Do you own shares of UWE that include voting rights? Are you one of the 'angel investors' that we owe the continued existence of this company to? No. (for what it's worth, I am licensed and work in investments)
Wow I got 3-4 pages into this garbage and it's pathetic. This thread is completely about "I bought the game now do it my way OR ELSE" Go play something else, come back in a few months when you've cooled off.
<!--quoteo(post=1874278:date=Sep 12 2011, 06:39 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Sep 12 2011, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no... no... just no. You gave money in exchange for a promise you'd get the game when it comes out. They even let you play their test builds. Do you own shares of UWE that include voting rights? Are you one of the 'angel investors' that we owe the continued existence of this company to? No. (for what it's worth, I am licensed and work in investments)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on forum and blog posts by the devs, I'm pretty sure they received much more money from pre-orders than from angel investors. The pre-order money also enabled them to implement features that were previously cut from the game.
I can't find the exact quotes, but they wrote a little about it here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/11/ns2_closed_beta_released_and_how_we_got_here" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...how_we_got_here</a>
Of course pre-ordering is not the same as an investment, but I understand where such comments are coming from. This is not your standard pre-order, where you wait three month and then the game arrives. UWE needs the money to fund ongoing development. There are probably lots of people who feel like they invested into UWE and expect a game in return. That doesn't mean they want voting rights.
Please stop pedalling that utterly non-sensical garbage. Some poor innocent young person could stumble into this forum, read some of these posts, and confuse cesspool analogies and stern tones with common sense.
There is not a single statue or common law precedent you could point to that would support the rediculous argument that you are somehow an investor in UWE. In any way shape or form. Partially or wholly. In spirit or in letter. In the United States, the UK, or whatever country you sent UWE your money from.
The next person that posts that they are 'sort of, kind of, actually' an investor or, Gorge forbid a <i>shareholder</i> will be assuming the mantle of Devil's advocate to a degree previously unseen by mortal men. They should immediatly be sent to argue for Charles Taylor in the Hague.
Now, I intend to return to my armchair, from whence I shall continue to command the battle. Someone take me closer, I want to poke them with my sword!
I may be mistaken but the OP's intention was to voice concern in the <i>direction</i> UWE was taking suddenly, not to claim UWE is using shady underhand practises.
It is my belief that UWE feels pressured into releasing builds, and have hit a snag in development and cant proceed right now but feel the need to release something and as a result tossing in wierd ideas ( spawning on squad mates ) in order to prevent the flood of complaints about lack of builds... while they work on sorting out the snag.
Note the following though, I dont want my money back as I am happy to give UWE something in return for all the good times I had with NS 1, I dont mind it taking so long as I am confidant that UWE are doing thier best to get it done. I am just concerned that UWE is tossing out all these wacky ideas ( I wasnt too happy with the dust cropping Lerk either, why cant he still be a ranged support ? What happened to the roost idea ? The Lerk is most certainly not Lurking anymore ) to fill up build patch notes while they sort out some development issues. I say I dont mind waiting for a new build, rather a wait than go through a series of builds with some wierd ideas ( may end up with Hydras doing great... melee damage, we felt Hydra contributed to camping so we thought fans would prefer a more aggressive Hydra type, the Gorge drops the Hydra near the AFK marine ....... ) until real progress is possible again.
NS2HD , no one is listening to you because debating with you about NS 2 is like trying to get the pope to concede points about Darwin... wont happen.
<!--quoteo(post=1874299:date=Sep 12 2011, 09:44 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 12 2011, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop pedalling that utterly non-sensical garbage. Some poor innocent young person could stumble into this forum, read some of these posts, and confuse cesspool analogies and stern tones with common sense.
There is not a single statue or common law precedent you could point to that would support the rediculous argument that you are somehow an investor in UWE. In any way shape or form. Partially or wholly. In spirit or in letter. In the United States, the UK, or whatever country you sent UWE your money from.
The next person that posts that they are 'sort of, kind of, actually' an investor or, Gorge forbid a <i>shareholder</i> will be assuming the mantle of Devil's advocate to a degree previously unseen by mortal men. They should immediatly be sent to argue for Charles Taylor in the Hague.
Now, I intend to return to my armchair, from whence I shall continue to command the battle. Someone take me closer, I want to poke them with my sword!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point people seem to make on here is that you're waiting because you've invested in to it. Whether that be your financial pre-order or emotional feeling or your voice on the forums. Investment can mean multiple things in context. As money from pre-orders has floated the game, that is accounted for under another context of investment; not pertaining to that of a company share or stakeholding however partaking to the life of a company. (As seen per GDC chart with "no money" ... then pre-orders "lots of money).
As far as law goes, someone mentioned (Player?) about an advertisement at the time of pre-order as Fall 2009 and then that was pulled as it was obvious that the game was not ready, it never was going to be and Flayra himself admitted that again in his GDC talk. There is law against that in every developed nation that specifically targets false-advertising. There may be other laws that overlap, there is no specific pre-order law but there are many consumer laws around time-scales, advertising, quality of product and so forth which do apply here.
^^ That's going off on a tangent but I thought if you're going to be really arsey about people being negative, I should remind you that the law itself would uphold to anyone that is unsatisfied with the project itself; albeit no one wants to see it fail however legally, unfortunately you should have done your homework before releasing a pre-order system.
I'd also like to add the team do seem to be very willing and accommodating to pre-order refunds. Although just because someone is negative and you don't like it, that doesn't give you a right to have a go at them and force your positive opinion on them. Not everyone is going to think the same, and if UWE want to take the line of "no bad words" on the forums, I'd suggest they employ a strong moderation of locking threads with negativity and see how that goes; albeit that would be one of the most dishonest and misleading things of all.
We're all customers. Some have higher expectation, some have lower, some are satisfied, some are not. At the end of the day it's what is right for you, and if you're saying it's not right for you or if it is right for you then you can discuss it. Rather than telling someone if you don't agree with me, I'm going to "assume the mantle of Devil's advocate to a degree previously unseen by mortal men. They should immediatly be sent to argue for Charles Taylor in the Hague.", for example (insult).
*It's clear people are too quick to insult here rather than actually have a discussion. It's all rather aggressive. Just chill. Respect each others opinions.
EDIT: Sorry I realise I made a long post with no sources to back myself up. So here you go,
Article with Fall 2009 advertisment video for release - <a href="http://kotaku.com/5271215/unknown-worlds-triumphantly-teases-natural-selection-2" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5271215/unknown-worlds-t...ral-selection-2</a>
GDC Video Link - <a href="http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014394/1-Hour-Video-Game" target="_blank">http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014394/1-Hour-Video-Game</a>
GDC Graph I spoke of - <a href="http://i.imgur.com/NzzsP.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/NzzsP.jpg</a>
Exerts from GDC Talk "Making Money Takes Practice" (accompanies graph)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"At the end of 2006 we were a company." "ZOS 25k" "Decoda 50k" "Then we did our pre-orders for Natural Selection 2. And we didn't even have a game, we thought we were going to have a game but we didn't have a game all we had was a teaser. And we were so strapped and I'm sure these guys will remember, Cory remembers. We were up against the wall for one of many times. How are we going to do this? We will just see if people will buy the game before it's ready. Launch the teaser, we made like £250k right away it was incredible. So we're getting better."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exerts from GDC Talk "NS2 Engine Test" <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"So we're up against the wall, oh god guys we have no money what are we going to do? Oh I know we have enough of the game working we can walk around, multiplayer doesn't work and we only have one weapon and aliens aren't really in" "We made like thirty thousand dollars off that." "We proved we weren't vaporware, hey we just shipped something"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before I get an aggressive response to this I'm not going out my way to prove anything that's incorrect here. I'm using the words of the business manager, the game creator and the company's face (that pertains to the pre-order fall 2009 video) in order to tell you the story. I can only go along with it as can you, we're all capable of making our own minds up and as someone has already sarcastically said "20 20 hindsight". Yes we do all wish for one day this to eventually at a much faster and more polished pace, want the game to be completed.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->What is the point of this thread?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - I dont see what you guys want.
Game wont be finished tomorrow, refunds are possible. What more do you want?
<!--quoteo(post=1874329:date=Sep 12 2011, 10:04 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 12 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although just because someone is negative and you don't like it, that doesn't give you a right to have a go at them and force your positive opinion on them. Not everyone is going to think the same, and if UWE want to take the line of "no bad words" on the forums, I'd suggest they employ a strong moderation of locking threads with negativity and see how that goes; albeit that would be one of the most dishonest and misleading things of all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may be no lawyer but i would believe false advertisement entails a deliberate intent to mislead. Is this really what you believe UWE has done? Do you also think this would stand where UWE offers a pretty no nonsense refund policy? The point is, what is your point? Surely you realise the issue is not about 'no bad words' but about unconstructive criticism. I mean this in the most objective sense possible but not all opinions should be respected - there is a line and you crossed ns2hd's line.
<!--quoteo(post=1874329:date=Sep 12 2011, 10:04 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 12 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As money from pre-orders has floated the game, that is accounted for under another context of investment; not pertaining to that of a company share or stakeholding however partaking to the life of a company. (As seen per GDC chart with "no money" ... then pre-orders "lots of money).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what? The underlying contract is money now for game later. This is not debt financing.
<!--quoteo(post=1874329:date=Sep 12 2011, 02:04 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 12 2011, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*snip* everything you have said so far *snip*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont get your issue. If your not happy with the way things work ask your money back, basically this: <!--quoteo(post=1874342:date=Sep 12 2011, 03:36 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 12 2011, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->What is the point of this thread?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - I dont see what you guys want.
Game wont be finished tomorrow, refunds are possible. What more do you want?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1874342:date=Sep 12 2011, 08:36 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 12 2011, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->What is the point of this thread?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - I dont see what you guys want.
Game wont be finished tomorrow, refunds are possible. What more do you want?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> an updated version of NS on a better engine, the revival of the FPS game in esports, and UWE to never announce a release date for anything they make again unless they have already uploaded the final product to Steam
<!--quoteo(post=1874360:date=Sep 12 2011, 10:51 AM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Sep 12 2011, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->an updated version of NS on a better engine, the revival of the FPS game in esports, and UWE to never announce a release date for anything they make again unless they have already uploaded the final product to Steam<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guys, I've got this terrible smell in my nose, it's really bad. It smells like entitlement. It also smells like control-freaking. Gross.
<!--quoteo(post=1874309:date=Sep 12 2011, 05:21 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 12 2011, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2HD , no one is listening to you because debating with you about NS 2 is like trying to get the pope to concede points about Darwin... wont happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pope has in fact said Evolution is not necessarily against God, so your point is mute.
I think it's time to lock this thread as it's getting out of hand.
Comments
Not really. I think most people associate Flash with buggy\slow\crash-prone, so you kinda could've seen the removal of that coming. Whether it was a good idea to write the majority of the game in a script you also could see as a bit risky, as that isn't really common practice. More research into the problems of using that was warranted (I wish I wish I wish it was C++, Lua is a pain to work with).
Having said that, the game currently is in a playable state (horrific performance notwithstanding), so I'm pretty confident it will see _some_ kind of release, or rather, I'd find it hard to believe UWE's (<u><b>HYPOTHETICAL</b></u>) bankruptcy would take NS2 with it, it's just too unique a game to die that easily.
I'm very glad to hear there's some kind of internal release-schedule though, it will help pull the game through it's development and not have it be delayed for some superfluous feature.
Especially you konata, if your not happy about what you have now why not ask your money back instead of just complaining about it?
Im not attacking anyone here but for god sake, dont act like UWE is picking their nose all day, a year has past since the engine came to live, a YEAR!
Activision (god help me for bringing up this piece of junk of a title, but for the time span for this comparison this will do) releases a new CoD every yeah, it takes them a year with a fairly large team and funds from being part of a large company to just write the campaign OR the multiplayer, because most of the time they even split that up.
Now, a normal company works longer on a single game NOT EVER haven to create their own engine most of the time, or having their own engine but even then it was made by a different team (TEAM, not 1 guy).
And to even put that in perspective, ID Software first showed their new IDTech 5 engine in 2007, that means they have been working on it already BEFORE that, they are about to release their FIRST game on it.
UWE so far, being an indie company, is making an engine and game from scratch, something a lot of other big studios dont even consider doing.
Why? because they consider it a longterm investment.
Look at Valve, they first leased the quake engine but build their own from there, and now look... they are still using their own engine and all they have to do is update it now and then.
No need to pay other companies for half their earnings, no problems with not understanding how systems work, not having do deal with any outside companies,...
So for them just taking 1 year to get this far on their first ever real indie game is just amazing, sure they have (had) problems, but you cant expect people to learn to do something from the ground up without making mistakes, without trying stuff and just expecting it to work on the first try.
They aren't just making a game, they are making an engine AND a game at the same time, sure its a daring move but once its done they dont need sh1t from anyone and they have everything in place for any other game they might plan for the future.
Side note btw:
Has anyone noticed how bugged to pieces Dead Island was when it was released?
A game with a bigger team and more money then UWE has.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, basically the game just wasnt done when it was released, meaning when you pre-ordered it you payed for a game that was still in development.
hmmmm, sounds familiar.... paying for a game that isn't done yet....
Yet even after paying no one got to play the dev version of the game...
Yet even after paying no one got to influence anything about the game...
Pre-ordering the game, and the buy page clearly says pre-ordering, not "becoming shareholder" or "becoming investor" does not warrant anyone to act like they own the place (look at NS2HD's post if you still dont get it)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114895&st=100&p=1874217&#entry1874217" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1874217</a>
UWE doesn't owe you anything other then a game called NS2.
And when will you get it?
As soon as its done, the pre-order page never stated a different time then that (Full game on Steam when done)
So honestly, imo, if you really cant take the waiting and stuff anyone, for god sake, ask your money back, so many here have been waiting from the very beginning, so why suddenly the rage and bullsh1tting around?
Its not like Duke Nukem where you just didn't hear anything from the game anymore, the devs release a patch every few weeks with a MASSIVE change log.
Especially you konata, if your not happy about what you have now why not ask your money back instead of just complaining about it?
Im not attacking anyone here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're ######. And you're attacking someone.
indeed, clearly with the first 2 lines i am, thats why the that line is placed AFTER that.
After that its just a reminder of what maybe its that obvious to everyone, ive been raging about many things lately, im stuck without RAM in my desktop (RMA to OCZ, new one shipping in from Taiwan to the netherlands, should be here next week), i just CANT wait for skyrim, DotA2 or GuildWars2 and im pumped to get my hands on some new Maya stuff once University starts again.
So i know its easy to lose sight on things, so I'm trying to give everyone a figurative slap across the face, not aimed at anyone, anyone can take it the way they want.
Not really the best comparison, id-Tech engines have an immense amount of polish going on, they're pretty famous for it actually (rock-solid, each and every one of em).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE so far, being an indie company, is making an engine and game from scratch, something a lot of other big studios dont even consider doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure Spark was written completely from scratch, there was story of how it came to be quite some time before NS2 was in question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? because they consider it a longterm investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'm not so sure about Spark being a sought after engine to acquire, id-Tech and the Unreal-engines are more likely candidates (or Source as you're mentioning).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at Valve, they first leased the quake engine but build their own from there, and now look... they are still using their own engine and all they have to do is update it now and then.
No need to pay other companies for half their earnings, no problems with not understanding how systems work, not having do deal with any outside companies,...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Source-engine is a descendant of the Gldsource-engine, which in turns is an accumelation of customized Quake 1 & 2-code, not really from scratch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So for them just taking 1 year to get this far on their first ever real indie game is just amazing, sure they have (had) problems, but you cant expect people to learn to do something from the ground up without making mistakes, without trying stuff and just expecting it to work on the first try.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well like I mentioned Spark may in fact be a little older than that. NS2 certainly has been in development longer I would imagine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Side note btw:
Has anyone noticed how bugged to pieces Dead Island was when it was released?
A game with a bigger team and more money then UWE has.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, basically the game just wasnt done when it was released, meaning when you pre-ordered it you payed for a game that was still in development.
hmmmm, sounds familiar.... paying for a game that isn't done yet....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they put up a dev-build by accident I guess, not really indicative of a crummy product. But even then, such nasty little bugs are likely to pop up when such a massive release is made. Tens of thousands of people are play-testing it at once, problems are likely to pop up. I needn't sketch an image of what would happen if NS2 were to be put on Steam as a release right now, the critique would be legendary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pre-ordering the game, and the buy page clearly says pre-ordering, not "becoming shareholder" or "becoming investor" does not warrant anyone to act like they own the place (look at NS2HD's post if you still dont get it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People look back at NS with nostalgia, emotions tend to occur, I wouldn't make too big a deal out of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE doesn't owe you anything other then a game called NS2.
And when will you get it?
As soon as its done, the pre-order page never stated a different time then that (Full game on Steam when done)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recall something beginning with "Fall" when I pre-ordered, though I'm no longer sure of the time-line anymore. Suffice it to say the release-date has gone a bit off the rails. But I'm not complaining about this, I can wait for a game that has no other equal right now.
I know that, but considering the time and teamsize difference there is so far you would be alowed to assume that much, at the least, but for a years work, or somewhat longer, but the first working engine testwas a year ago, they havent done a bad job for such a small team with limited funds.
<!--quoteo(post=1874249:date=Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I'm not so sure about Spark being a sought after engine to acquire, id-Tech and the Unreal-engines are more likely candidates (or Source as you're mentioning).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but i wasnt even talking about leasing it to anyone else yet, just to have their own engine once its done is already a huge advantage to have for themselfs
<!--quoteo(post=1874249:date=Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 12 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People look back at NS with nostalgia, emotions tend to occur, I wouldn't make too big a deal out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ofcource, i understand that as well, I used to play ns1 as well, i have waited a long time like everyone else.
But we shouldnt forget that UWE is still working on things as hard as they can and that its THEIR company to make or break, not ours.
And this being their first independent "steps" its not strange that they make mistakes, yet some comments just trow trash at them regardless of that they have achieved so far.
EDIT: My signature is kinda ironic, no?
I think we're just looking for you to hold your hands up before you give us the politicians speech and spin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of have to agree here.
Whether or not you realise it, when you ask for things like 'have faith that we'll get it done' and particularly when you do things like sell pre-orders, start endorsing overly-positive views of the game like the NS2HD channel, put up a fancy website designed to make the game look professional, all of these are things I would associate with big professional games companies, companies that have all the money, staff, and time they need to make the games, companies where there isn't really any doubt that when they show a prototype 2 years ahead of release at E3 or something, you can be pretty sure the game will actually look like that when it's done, and you can also be pretty sure when you preorder it a year or so ahead of time, that you'll get the finished game within a month or two of the release date.
Essentially you seem to be trying to project an image generally associated with big companies, the problem with that however is that if you're going to do that and reap the benefits, you also have to accept the responsibility, you have to accept that people will throw all the crap at you they throw at everyone else, they will expect everything to be done when it's supposed to be done, and they will accuse you of being a bunch of idiots if things aren't working as well as they'd like.
Basically, you can't act all smooth and professional to get pre-orders in, then turn round and say 'oh please we're only a little team don't hurt our feelings' when it turns sour. At least, not without someone calling you on it. It comes across as very manipulative, or as said, something you associate with politicians and other untrustworthy sorts.
If you seek to cultivate an air of professionalism, you really cannot complain when people call you on being unprofessional, which is exactly what jumping on flippant remarks and 'this would never fly in a real industry setting' constitute.
Some ppl are acting like they can speak for everybody...
Its not UWEs fault that you are blending yourself with false expectations, and its not the majority. (my guess at least, otherwise there would be A LOT more threads like that and not only 10 ppl talking)
Or why do i see everything different? Im happy with the "alpha"(aka beta) and progress, i understand that they are working on different stuff and cant just throw out features, or only focus on a single thing. I understand how this open developing process is working by now. They try to be in touch with us.
Every other game company would just complealty ignore this forum, only some crappy mods would play god here, ban some trolls and give a message that they will tell your suggestion or request to the developers. (yea sure...)
<b>If you cant handle how uwe is doing their business - playsomething else until 1.0 or request a refund.</b>
Kouiji you genius! I forgot to tell you that part of the story! While I was in my armchair, (Remember guys, I was commanding the biggest battle!!) I found I had perfect 20-20 hindsight.
I mean normally I have terrible short sightedness. I'm so short sighted I can't see forests, only the trees!
But who cares. This was a big battle. And I was in my comfy armchair. And I had <b>perfect</b> hindsight.
Are you even listening to me guys??
no... no... just no.
You gave money in exchange for a promise you'd get the game when it comes out. They even let you play their test builds. Do you own shares of UWE that include voting rights? Are you one of the 'angel investors' that we owe the continued existence of this company to? No. (for what it's worth, I am licensed and work in investments)
Wow I got 3-4 pages into this garbage and it's pathetic. This thread is completely about "I bought the game now do it my way OR ELSE"
Go play something else, come back in a few months when you've cooled off.
You gave money in exchange for a promise you'd get the game when it comes out. They even let you play their test builds. Do you own shares of UWE that include voting rights? Are you one of the 'angel investors' that we owe the continued existence of this company to? No. (for what it's worth, I am licensed and work in investments)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on forum and blog posts by the devs, I'm pretty sure they received much more money from pre-orders than from angel investors. The pre-order money also enabled them to implement features that were previously cut from the game.
I can't find the exact quotes, but they wrote a little about it here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/11/ns2_closed_beta_released_and_how_we_got_here" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...how_we_got_here</a>
Of course pre-ordering is not the same as an investment, but I understand where such comments are coming from. This is not your standard pre-order, where you wait three month and then the game arrives. UWE needs the money to fund ongoing development. There are probably lots of people who feel like they invested into UWE and expect a game in return. That doesn't mean they want voting rights.
There is not a single statue or common law precedent you could point to that would support the rediculous argument that you are somehow an investor in UWE. In any way shape or form. Partially or wholly. In spirit or in letter. In the United States, the UK, or whatever country you sent UWE your money from.
The next person that posts that they are 'sort of, kind of, actually' an investor or, Gorge forbid a <i>shareholder</i> will be assuming the mantle of Devil's advocate to a degree previously unseen by mortal men. They should immediatly be sent to argue for Charles Taylor in the Hague.
Now, I intend to return to my armchair, from whence I shall continue to command the battle. Someone take me closer, I want to poke them with my sword!
It is my belief that UWE feels pressured into releasing builds, and have hit a snag in development and cant proceed right now but feel the need to release something and as a result tossing in wierd ideas ( spawning on squad mates ) in order to prevent the flood of complaints about lack of builds... while they work on sorting out the snag.
Note the following though, I dont want my money back as I am happy to give UWE something in return for all the good times I had with NS 1, I dont mind it taking so long as I am confidant that UWE are doing thier best to get it done. I am just concerned that UWE is tossing out all these wacky ideas ( I wasnt too happy with the dust cropping Lerk either, why cant he still be a ranged support ? What happened to the roost idea ? The Lerk is most certainly not Lurking anymore ) to fill up build patch notes while they sort out some development issues.
I say I dont mind waiting for a new build, rather a wait than go through a series of builds with some wierd ideas ( may end up with Hydras doing great... melee damage, we felt Hydra contributed to camping so we thought fans would prefer a more aggressive Hydra type, the Gorge drops the Hydra near the AFK marine ....... ) until real progress is possible again.
NS2HD , no one is listening to you because debating with you about NS 2 is like trying to get the pope to concede points about Darwin... wont happen.
There is not a single statue or common law precedent you could point to that would support the rediculous argument that you are somehow an investor in UWE. In any way shape or form. Partially or wholly. In spirit or in letter. In the United States, the UK, or whatever country you sent UWE your money from.
The next person that posts that they are 'sort of, kind of, actually' an investor or, Gorge forbid a <i>shareholder</i> will be assuming the mantle of Devil's advocate to a degree previously unseen by mortal men. They should immediatly be sent to argue for Charles Taylor in the Hague.
Now, I intend to return to my armchair, from whence I shall continue to command the battle. Someone take me closer, I want to poke them with my sword!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point people seem to make on here is that you're waiting because you've invested in to it. Whether that be your financial pre-order or emotional feeling or your voice on the forums. Investment can mean multiple things in context. As money from pre-orders has floated the game, that is accounted for under another context of investment; not pertaining to that of a company share or stakeholding however partaking to the life of a company. (As seen per GDC chart with "no money" ... then pre-orders "lots of money).
As far as law goes, someone mentioned (Player?) about an advertisement at the time of pre-order as Fall 2009 and then that was pulled as it was obvious that the game was not ready, it never was going to be and Flayra himself admitted that again in his GDC talk. There is law against that in every developed nation that specifically targets false-advertising. There may be other laws that overlap, there is no specific pre-order law but there are many consumer laws around time-scales, advertising, quality of product and so forth which do apply here.
^^ That's going off on a tangent but I thought if you're going to be really arsey about people being negative, I should remind you that the law itself would uphold to anyone that is unsatisfied with the project itself; albeit no one wants to see it fail however legally, unfortunately you should have done your homework before releasing a pre-order system.
I'd also like to add the team do seem to be very willing and accommodating to pre-order refunds. Although just because someone is negative and you don't like it, that doesn't give you a right to have a go at them and force your positive opinion on them. Not everyone is going to think the same, and if UWE want to take the line of "no bad words" on the forums, I'd suggest they employ a strong moderation of locking threads with negativity and see how that goes; albeit that would be one of the most dishonest and misleading things of all.
We're all customers. Some have higher expectation, some have lower, some are satisfied, some are not. At the end of the day it's what is right for you, and if you're saying it's not right for you or if it is right for you then you can discuss it. Rather than telling someone if you don't agree with me, I'm going to "assume the mantle of Devil's advocate to a degree previously unseen by mortal men. They should immediatly be sent to argue for Charles Taylor in the Hague.", for example (insult).
*It's clear people are too quick to insult here rather than actually have a discussion. It's all rather aggressive. Just chill. Respect each others opinions.
EDIT: Sorry I realise I made a long post with no sources to back myself up. So here you go,
Article with Fall 2009 advertisment video for release - <a href="http://kotaku.com/5271215/unknown-worlds-triumphantly-teases-natural-selection-2" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5271215/unknown-worlds-t...ral-selection-2</a>
GDC Video Link - <a href="http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014394/1-Hour-Video-Game" target="_blank">http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014394/1-Hour-Video-Game</a>
GDC Graph I spoke of - <a href="http://i.imgur.com/NzzsP.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/NzzsP.jpg</a>
Exerts from GDC Talk "Making Money Takes Practice" (accompanies graph)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"At the end of 2006 we were a company."
"ZOS 25k"
"Decoda 50k"
"Then we did our pre-orders for Natural Selection 2. And we didn't even have a game, we thought we were going to have a game but we didn't have a game all we had was a teaser.
And we were so strapped and I'm sure these guys will remember, Cory remembers. We were up against the wall for one of many times. How are we going to do this? We will just see if people
will buy the game before it's ready. Launch the teaser, we made like £250k right away it was incredible. So we're getting better."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exerts from GDC Talk "NS2 Engine Test"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"So we're up against the wall, oh god guys we have no money what are we going to do? Oh I know we have enough of the game working we can walk around, multiplayer doesn't work and we only have one weapon and aliens aren't really in"
"We made like thirty thousand dollars off that." "We proved we weren't vaporware, hey we just shipped something"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before I get an aggressive response to this I'm not going out my way to prove anything that's incorrect here. I'm using the words of the business manager, the game creator and the company's face (that pertains to the pre-order fall 2009 video) in order to tell you the story. I can only go along with it as can you, we're all capable of making our own minds up and as someone has already sarcastically said "20 20 hindsight". Yes we do all wish for one day this to eventually at a much faster and more polished pace, want the game to be completed.
It's interesting.
Game wont be finished tomorrow, refunds are possible. What more do you want?
I may be no lawyer but i would believe false advertisement entails a deliberate intent to mislead. Is this really what you believe UWE has done? Do you also think this would stand where UWE offers a pretty no nonsense refund policy? The point is, what is your point? Surely you realise the issue is not about 'no bad words' but about unconstructive criticism. I mean this in the most objective sense possible but not all opinions should be respected - there is a line and you crossed ns2hd's line.
<!--quoteo(post=1874329:date=Sep 12 2011, 10:04 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 12 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As money from pre-orders has floated the game, that is accounted for under another context of investment; not pertaining to that of a company share or stakeholding however partaking to the life of a company. (As seen per GDC chart with "no money" ... then pre-orders "lots of money).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what? The underlying contract is money now for game later. This is not debt financing.
I dont get your issue.
If your not happy with the way things work ask your money back, basically this:
<!--quoteo(post=1874342:date=Sep 12 2011, 03:36 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 12 2011, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->What is the point of this thread?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - I dont see what you guys want.
Game wont be finished tomorrow, refunds are possible. What more do you want?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game wont be finished tomorrow, refunds are possible. What more do you want?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
an updated version of NS on a better engine, the revival of the FPS game in esports, and UWE to never announce a release date for anything they make again unless they have already uploaded the final product to Steam
Guys, I've got this terrible smell in my nose, it's really bad. It smells like entitlement. It also smells like control-freaking. Gross.
<img src="http://myfacewhen.com/images/2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Fun fact: It leads no where
Community... I am disappoint >:/
The pope has in fact said Evolution is not necessarily against God, so your point is mute.
I think it's time to lock this thread as it's getting out of hand.