If you are using the sandwich as an example, let us examine your thinking.
A nice sandwich costs around £3 ($4.85), it gives me 10 minutes of pleasure and and the nice sandwich maker takes 1 minutes to make it.
A nice game like NS2 costs around £25 ($40), it has so far given me around 280 hours of pleasure (-50 hours of annoying glitches that will be fixed, so 230 hours) and it takes the lovely UWE team over 2 years to make it.
Do the math, you are more than getting your moneys worth.
The point of an analogy is that you can replace the subject with whatever you want, it is designed to show inconsistent logic.
The argument was that NS2 is late, the poster finds the progress to be lacking, and what has been offered to be substandard, yet he should not be displeased at this, he should be honoured to be a part of the late, slow, substandard game development process.
This doesn't make a lot of sense if you apply it to any other subject. If, to use a given example, you contract someone to produce a building, and ten years down the line they have missed all their deadlines and the building is too unstable to safely walk around in, the correct response from the contractor is not 'you should be thankful to be a part of the building process'.
The fact that you happen to find charming what others consider to be sub-par is not really a very good argument, because it means that the original argument is more completely phrased as 'you should be thankful to be a part of this crappy game because I happen to really like it'. Do you see why that wouldn't hold a lot of water with those who do not personally believe NS2 to be the greatest gift to gaming ever invented?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1874143:date=Sep 11 2011, 11:01 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 11 2011, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you go into a <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->skyscraper<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> shop and give someone money to make you a <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->skyscraper<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, and you come back in ten years and they still aren't done, but they give you access to 40/80 floors for you to lease out with half the lifts working and say 'this skyscraper is harder to make then I thought, we had some bad weather, and some of our new structral innovations are having teething problems, but here, you can lease out the finished floors of the skyscraper' and your tennants move in to the first 40 floors <b>and they actually find the building decent</b>, what is the expected response?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A multi-million lawsuit.
The argument is valid, if you judge that the product don't match your expectancies then it's legitimate be angry and negative.
Judgments and expectancies are to be discussed and are, ultimately, arbitrary (matter of opinion). The big question is how much of the per-orderers are dissatisfied in some way, 1%, 10%, 90% ? No clue.
To follow on from yuuki, who honestly expected to pay for a game in 2009 and not get it after 24 months? I didn't expect it would take this long until I saw how unstable the engine test was, and that was 8 months after paying?
I think if you are going to take money off the general public you have to inform them fully, concisely and clearly. If you don't, you're simply stringing them along for a "when it's done". In that case money should only be taken on a donation basis not for the product itself as the potential of failure is there.
If a full game, feature developed, stable so forth and so forth isn't released, you could call this a multi-million dollar scam.
Rather then floundering around like a wounded whale on a secluded beach why don't you disgruntled people just get a refund?
Stewing over 30$ just doesn't seem worth it in the long run. It isn't worth coming to the forums day in day out expressing your negativity. The game certainly won't come out any faster regardless of how you feel on the matter. What a lot of you forget is that Charlie and the gang live, eat, and breath NS2. So it's incredibly insulting when people bash them while they bust there asses to try and get this game in a more complete state. We don't know how many hours in a week they are pouring into the game. My guess is it's a lot more then normal companies due to how small they are.
Charlie Max and Corey are all great guys. They aren't some sleazy car salesmen who want to sell you a lemon. It just takes time to make lemonade.
So meanwhile all any of you can do is hurry up and wait.
<!--quoteo(post=1874159:date=Sep 11 2011, 10:04 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To follow on from yuuki, who honestly expected to pay for a game in 2009 and not get it after 24 months? I didn't expect it would take this long until I saw how unstable the engine test was, and that was 8 months after paying?
I think if you are going to take money off the general public you have to inform them fully, concisely and clearly. If you don't, you're simply stringing them along for a "when it's done". In that case money should only be taken on a donation basis not for the product itself as the potential of failure is there.
If a full game, feature developed, stable so forth and so forth isn't released, you could call this a multi-million dollar scam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now this is presumptous, insulting and downright not constructive. NS2 is far from vaporware and mentioning multi million dollar scams in the same sentence loses all respect i would otherwise have for your posts. Secondly, where did you get this rule that pre-orders on a 'when its done' schedule should only be on a donation basis? (put aside the fact that UWE have said they set very strict deadlines internally). On the basis of trust i pre-ordered, why must i be disallowed to do so? I may not know UWE personally but its obvious they are deeply committed to the game. Whether or not their vision is going in directions the community doesn't like is an entirely separate issue.
I thoroughly dislike how all the 'im entitled to this and that' people have hijacked this thread which was originally about game direction. Go make another thread if you want to do that or get a refund on the nearly non-existant risk that the game won't be done.
Further, for your information ns2 was infact going to be released much earlier with MUCH less content. It was only as a result of pre-order response that UWE were able to fund the game they truly wanted to make.
<!--quoteo(post=1874163:date=Sep 11 2011, 10:28 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people bash EA for being EA. You don't see them telling the public that their feelings are hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny because i dont see UWE telling the public their feelings are hurt either. If your still butthurt over corey's 'one liner' you should probably get a sense of humour.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>OP here</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, how is this the number one thread? I don't like to rant on the internet cause its useless and dumb but here's my piece...
Cory gave a very detailed response to the game's current direction and why. Clearly I made a mistake in starting this thread. I was merely a bit concerned after reading some of the negative threads in this forum. I wanted to hear a dev weigh in on some of my concerns and Cory was, despite a well deserved eye-roll, more than willing to answer the community.
Lighten up on UWE, small staff, looking to hire, new engine, working hard, open to community ideas, taking barrages of negativity from impatient noobs.
I never meant for this thread to become so toxic... People need to go outside and enjoy some fresh air while UWE works tirelessly on this unique and innovative game for <b>YOU</b>. Chillax bras, be glad your voices are even being heard and considered in the developmental process of this game.
<b>Cory, feel free to close this thread.</b> Some people fail at basic human mannerisms and can't comprehend my original intention of constructive criticism, answers to raised concerns and avoiding negativity. Especially trolling meb3. Probably has something to do with a subconscious compensatory manifestation of a phallic inferiority or he's 12. [/rant]
Also, shout-out to NS2HD, love your videos and terrible analogies. Sucks that youtube is rejecting your uploads.
<!--quoteo(post=1874169:date=Sep 11 2011, 08:44 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 11 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further, for your information ns2 was infact going to be released much earlier with MUCH less content. It was only as a result of pre-order response that UWE were able to fund the game they truly wanted to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love it when uwe fanboys post stuff like this. They were never going to release the game in Fall 2009 in the first place. Releasing the product back then would have been a full-blown failure due to the game's state at the time. It was a classic UWE case of biting off more than they can chew. They had to find some way to keep afloat, so they opted to adapt the preorder for early access model, a model that encourages feedback from the community, constructive or negative. Stuff like the infamous 'slow-on-hit' addition can be quickly scrutinized as a bad design decision and mocked by the community, so I actually like the model they adapted, but it requires that the developers develop hard enough skin to accept the trade-offs (the negative criticism) of the model they have embraced to win the respect of the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1874169:date=Sep 11 2011, 08:44 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 11 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny because i dont see UWE telling the public their feelings are hurt either. If your still butthurt over corey's 'one liner' you should probably get a sense of humour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. Some of you are very sweet, nice, thoughtful people...and some of you guys have really lost your manners! Please remember that there are people with feelings reading what you've hastily tapped in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=112906&view=findpost&p=1840696" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1840696</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cory+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cory)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have been working nights and weekends and putting our all into getting this game into a more playable state. We are very tired, and we want to be able to play the game lagless and without server crashes as much as anyone else. Frankly, the general lack of support and constant stream of negativity from our own community is really getting to the entire development team.
...
We wish everyone would understand how harmful this negativity is, not just to those of us who are working hard to make a great game for you, but to the future of this game and company as well. Yes, people complaining and telling everyone this game is not worth buying really hurts pre order sales. And that lack of money coming in puts the development of this game in serious jeopardy. We understand people want a fun, polished playing experience, and they want it now, but if this constant stream of public negativity continues it may mean NS2 never comes out at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1874169:date=Sep 11 2011, 03:44 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 11 2011, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further, for your information ns2 was infact going to be released much earlier with MUCH less content. It was only as a result of pre-order response that UWE were able to fund the game they truly wanted to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are we talking about Spark or Source? I don't believe Spark would've ever made it to Fall 2009. Even without the DI\MACs\Drifters (that doesn't sound half bad, should've done that to be honest, maybe only include the DI), the Lua-scripting\Flash\Occlusion-culling would've still been there to bite them in the arse and make it not work properly.
I don't mind the devs responses throughout this ordeal though, I mean come on, Cory's posts are just reeking of passive aggressiveness, that alone is almost worth my pre-order.
<!--quoteo(post=1874163:date=Sep 11 2011, 12:28 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people bash EA for being EA. You don't see them telling the public that their feelings are hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> EA is a large corporation, and generally the individual employees aren't allowed to post on forums or are very closely monitored what they can and can't say, and if there is community involvement it's handled through their PR team.
At the other companies I worked for, the employees read the forums and got as equally depressed at all the negativity, but were not allowed to post because our publisher would not allow that.
We are actively involved directly with our community and that can be both good and bad, but I think we do a pretty good job of remaining professional, and using our comments to help inform the discussion. There are loads of negative comments on these forums, and for the most part, we take it all in stride. But when a thread fills up with pages of comments that are not just complaining about the game, but specifically making accusations about the developers, the people who you all know by name on here, of not knowing what we are doing, of not being involved enough with our community, and of running a company that would fail in any other circumstances...well, how are we supposed to react? Our community seems to appreciate that we aren't just a faceless corporation like EA, but then some people call us out on those occasions where we react like human beings and make a post that shows some frustration.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
Whatever Max is being payed should be doubled or tripled, because he's doing a several person job. Steps should have been taken years and years ago to rectify that. You can call that negative, it is I guess. I'm critiquing something. But it's legitimate too
I don't even actually know what everybody else is saying. But that whole bit about UWE and other dev studios etc etc, this deal with one person under the hood Spark WOULD have been unnaceptable anywhere else. This ain't a freaking iPhone game. It's a mammoth coding job...
<!--quoteo(post=1874205:date=Sep 11 2011, 02:45 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 11 2011, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whatever Max is being payed should be doubled or tripled, because he's doing a several person job. Steps should have been taken years and years ago to rectify that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure all of them are doing a several persons job
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1874206:date=Sep 11 2011, 03:54 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Sep 11 2011, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure all of them are doing a several persons job<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a good point. I can respect what you're saying. Coding is just disproportionately crucial though. Engine coding, Christ, that's the stuff people at Crytek or Epic spend years and years on. You can outsource some player models and concept art. Maybe you don't get results that are as good, but a coder has to be on board permanently. There is effectively only one coder in staff handling the engine stuff, Max. Having delt with a lot of coders, they love pressure and high-stress, and many take a "one cook in the kitchen" attitude. Often the most talented people are the most extreme with that mindset. That really hurts the game though, and delays things badly. Take it from me, who knows nothing about code, but I was on a mod where this scenario played out exactly.
I don't know what's going on at UWE, and it's too serious an accusation for them to entertain much, but I suspect there's truth to that in this case.
<!--quoteo(post=1874199:date=Sep 11 2011, 08:09 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 11 2011, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but then some people call us out on those occasions where we react like human beings and make a post that shows some frustration. --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then react like human beings. Admit you never foreseen it to take this long and your direction has been wrong but you are learning. Rather than reassuring us with false hope. I never seem to see admittance of error, only the "positive spin" to get you out of saying "Hey we were wrong!".
I think we're just looking for you to hold your hands up before you give us the politicians speech and spin.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1874210:date=Sep 11 2011, 04:19 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then react like human beings. Admit you never foreseen it to take this long and your direction has been wrong but you are learning. Rather than reassuring us with false hope. I never seem to see admittance of error, only the "positive spin" to get you out of saying "Hey we were wrong!".
I think we're just looking for you to hold your hands up before you give us the politicians speech and spin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can't be too honest about these kind of mistakes because these kind of mistakes seem totally catastrophic. They would have to admit that there was a chance they could sink the whole project, which is not something they want to get into.
I see this more as a space for brutally honest discussion under the watchful but silent gaze of the devs :p
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1874199:date=Sep 11 2011, 11:39 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 11 2011, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EA is a large corporation, and generally the individual employees aren't allowed to post on forums or are very closely monitored what they can and can't say, and if there is community involvement it's handled through their PR team.
At the other companies I worked for, the employees read the forums and got as equally depressed at all the negativity, but were not allowed to post because our publisher would not allow that.
We are actively involved directly with our community and that can be both good and bad, but I think we do a pretty good job of remaining professional, and using our comments to help inform the discussion. There are loads of negative comments on these forums, and for the most part, we take it all in stride. But when a thread fills up with pages of comments that are not just complaining about the game, but specifically making accusations about the developers, the people who you all know by name on here, of not knowing what we are doing, of not being involved enough with our community, and of running a company that would fail in any other circumstances...well, how are we supposed to react? Our community seems to appreciate that we aren't just a faceless corporation like EA, but then some people call us out on those occasions where we react like human beings and make a post that shows some frustration.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're making a game, that's already more then most, if not all; that the forum whiners will ever achieve in their lives. Whiny/Negative comments are always louder because it's easier to be vocal in a negative tone. Whining is easy, it's the easiest way to start a conversation on any subject. The people who can serve you some constructive criticisms are usually those who are intelligent, observant and reasonable enough to be worth listening to, they are capable of getting a coherent message through that everybody can agree on. The game only gets better by this.
I'm saying its easier to see and to focus on the idiot(s) of the crowd holding their picket "GOD HATES NS2" signs, however low their numbers are, then to see the larger number of those who actually have something to help you progress.
And then there are the fans, don't forget the fans of the game. Hopefully they can get your spirits up! but don't forget that they may be as incoherent and biased as the haters.
<!--quoteo(post=1874211:date=Sep 11 2011, 09:23 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 11 2011, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They can't be too honest about these kind of mistakes because these kind of mistakes seem totally catastrophic. They would have to admit that there was a chance they could sink the whole project, which is not something they want to get into.
I see this more as a space for brutally honest discussion under the watchful but silent gaze of the devs :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That reminds me of the banking crisis, "WE ARE FINE HONEST!".... *BANKRUPTCY* ... Is that what you're saying?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1874213:date=Sep 11 2011, 04:26 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That reminds me of the banking crisis, "WE ARE FINE HONEST!".... *BANKRUPTCY* ... Is that what you're saying?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sort of. The devs want things to go smoothly, but of course people outside have opinions and raise concerns. Everybody is doing this under the spectre of bankruptcy, but we're all pulling for success.
I think everything I've said has been true, then you raise the question, is the truth negative? Man, I don't think so. Even if its not flattering, honesty is worth examining. Still, the devs could say, "but its not true, because you can't see this x or y that's going on behind the scenes." They're right, and I'm right, because I'm looking at what they let me look at. So it's complicated.
TL;DR: They need more than one engine coder, and they've needed that since the beginning. Now they know, and that's great.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1874217:date=Sep 11 2011, 04:41 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Sep 11 2011, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, GUYS! I have a fanTASTIC story to tell you all!
There was once a really, really big battle guys. Are you listening to me guys? Really big. There were some guys fighting it, and I'm a show salesman.
Anyway, the point is: I sat in a REALLY comfy armchair and commanded the whole thing. The whole thing!
...
I was also 12 years old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I have never seen more accurate and effective powers of summarizing. Well done sir, well done.
(I wish I could find my copy of the NS/Scrooge parody story from [FFT] that had the line yelling at Max to get back to work.)
I would have thought when it says "Full version when done" you would have thought that this wasn't something that was going to be puked out in a few months. This isn't a group that has a huge long list of credits identifying multiple studios and large groups of people, but a group of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/about" target="_blank">six</a> people.
How many of the people here complaining have ever worked on a big game? Do y'all complain to groups like artists or musicians when they take long to give you something, too?
If not having this game done is really bothering you, then <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/jobs" target="_blank">apply</a> for a job.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1874226:date=Sep 11 2011, 09:19 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 11 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to further aggravate anyone, but you don't have to be a rocket-scientist to identify numerous blunders made along the path of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 20-20 hindsight required though!
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1874226:date=Sep 11 2011, 05:19 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 11 2011, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to further aggravate anyone, but you don't have to be a rocket-scientist to identify numerous blunders made along the path of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
A nice sandwich costs around £3 ($4.85), it gives me 10 minutes of pleasure and and the nice sandwich maker takes 1 minutes to make it.
A nice game like NS2 costs around £25 ($40), it has so far given me around 280 hours of pleasure (-50 hours of annoying glitches that will be fixed, so 230 hours) and it takes the lovely UWE team over 2 years to make it.
Do the math, you are more than getting your moneys worth.
The argument was that NS2 is late, the poster finds the progress to be lacking, and what has been offered to be substandard, yet he should not be displeased at this, he should be honoured to be a part of the late, slow, substandard game development process.
This doesn't make a lot of sense if you apply it to any other subject. If, to use a given example, you contract someone to produce a building, and ten years down the line they have missed all their deadlines and the building is too unstable to safely walk around in, the correct response from the contractor is not 'you should be thankful to be a part of the building process'.
The fact that you happen to find charming what others consider to be sub-par is not really a very good argument, because it means that the original argument is more completely phrased as 'you should be thankful to be a part of this crappy game because I happen to really like it'. Do you see why that wouldn't hold a lot of water with those who do not personally believe NS2 to be the greatest gift to gaming ever invented?
A multi-million lawsuit.
Judgments and expectancies are to be discussed and are, ultimately, arbitrary (matter of opinion). The big question is how much of the per-orderers are dissatisfied in some way, 1%, 10%, 90% ? No clue.
I think if you are going to take money off the general public you have to inform them fully, concisely and clearly. If you don't, you're simply stringing them along for a "when it's done". In that case money should only be taken on a donation basis not for the product itself as the potential of failure is there.
If a full game, feature developed, stable so forth and so forth isn't released, you could call this a multi-million dollar scam.
Stewing over 30$ just doesn't seem worth it in the long run. It isn't worth coming to the forums day in day out expressing your negativity. The game certainly won't come out any faster regardless of how you feel on the matter. What a lot of you forget is that Charlie and the gang live, eat, and breath NS2. So it's incredibly insulting when people bash them while they bust there asses to try and get this game in a more complete state. We don't know how many hours in a week they are pouring into the game. My guess is it's a lot more then normal companies due to how small they are.
Charlie Max and Corey are all great guys. They aren't some sleazy car salesmen who want to sell you a lemon. It just takes time to make lemonade.
So meanwhile all any of you can do is hurry up and wait.
I think if you are going to take money off the general public you have to inform them fully, concisely and clearly. If you don't, you're simply stringing them along for a "when it's done". In that case money should only be taken on a donation basis not for the product itself as the potential of failure is there.
If a full game, feature developed, stable so forth and so forth isn't released, you could call this a multi-million dollar scam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this is presumptous, insulting and downright not constructive. NS2 is far from vaporware and mentioning multi million dollar scams in the same sentence loses all respect i would otherwise have for your posts. Secondly, where did you get this rule that pre-orders on a 'when its done' schedule should only be on a donation basis? (put aside the fact that UWE have said they set very strict deadlines internally). On the basis of trust i pre-ordered, why must i be disallowed to do so? I may not know UWE personally but its obvious they are deeply committed to the game. Whether or not their vision is going in directions the community doesn't like is an entirely separate issue.
I thoroughly dislike how all the 'im entitled to this and that' people have hijacked this thread which was originally about game direction. Go make another thread if you want to do that or get a refund on the nearly non-existant risk that the game won't be done.
Further, for your information ns2 was infact going to be released much earlier with MUCH less content. It was only as a result of pre-order response that UWE were able to fund the game they truly wanted to make.
<!--quoteo(post=1874163:date=Sep 11 2011, 10:28 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 11 2011, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people bash EA for being EA. You don't see them telling the public that their feelings are hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny because i dont see UWE telling the public their feelings are hurt either. If your still butthurt over corey's 'one liner' you should probably get a sense of humour.
I don't like to rant on the internet cause its useless and dumb but here's my piece...
Cory gave a very detailed response to the game's current direction and why.
Clearly I made a mistake in starting this thread. I was merely a bit concerned after reading some of the negative threads in this forum.
I wanted to hear a dev weigh in on some of my concerns and Cory was, despite a well deserved eye-roll, more than willing to answer the community.
Lighten up on UWE, small staff, looking to hire, new engine, working hard, open to community ideas, taking barrages of negativity from impatient noobs.
I never meant for this thread to become so toxic...
People need to go outside and enjoy some fresh air while UWE works tirelessly on this unique and innovative game for <b>YOU</b>.
Chillax bras, be glad your voices are even being heard and considered in the developmental process of this game.
<b>Cory, feel free to close this thread.</b>
Some people fail at basic human mannerisms and can't comprehend my original intention of constructive criticism, answers to raised concerns and avoiding negativity.
Especially trolling meb3. Probably has something to do with a subconscious compensatory manifestation of a phallic inferiority or he's 12.
[/rant]
Also, shout-out to NS2HD, love your videos and terrible analogies. Sucks that youtube is rejecting your uploads.
I love it when uwe fanboys post stuff like this. They were never going to release the game in Fall 2009 in the first place. Releasing the product back then would have been a full-blown failure due to the game's state at the time. It was a classic UWE case of biting off more than they can chew. They had to find some way to keep afloat, so they opted to adapt the preorder for early access model, a model that encourages feedback from the community, constructive or negative. Stuff like the infamous 'slow-on-hit' addition can be quickly scrutinized as a bad design decision and mocked by the community, so I actually like the model they adapted, but it requires that the developers develop hard enough skin to accept the trade-offs (the negative criticism) of the model they have embraced to win the respect of the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1874169:date=Sep 11 2011, 08:44 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 11 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny because i dont see UWE telling the public their feelings are hurt either. If your still butthurt over corey's 'one liner' you should probably get a sense of humour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. Some of you are very sweet, nice, thoughtful people...and some of you guys have really lost your manners! Please remember that there are people with feelings reading what you've hastily tapped in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=112906&view=findpost&p=1840696" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1840696</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cory+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cory)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have been working nights and weekends and putting our all into getting this game into a more playable state. We are very tired, and we want to be able to play the game lagless and without server crashes as much as anyone else. Frankly, the general lack of support and constant stream of negativity from our own community is really getting to the entire development team.
...
We wish everyone would understand how harmful this negativity is, not just to those of us who are working hard to make a great game for you, but to the future of this game and company as well. Yes, people complaining and telling everyone this game is not worth buying really hurts pre order sales. And that lack of money coming in puts the development of this game in serious jeopardy. We understand people want a fun, polished playing experience, and they want it now, but if this constant stream of public negativity continues it may mean NS2 never comes out at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111433&view=findpost&p=1807590" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....t&p=1807590</a>
boohoo
Are we talking about Spark or Source? I don't believe Spark would've ever made it to Fall 2009. Even without the DI\MACs\Drifters (that doesn't sound half bad, should've done that to be honest, maybe only include the DI), the Lua-scripting\Flash\Occlusion-culling would've still been there to bite them in the arse and make it not work properly.
I don't mind the devs responses throughout this ordeal though, I mean come on, Cory's posts are just reeking of passive aggressiveness, that alone is almost worth my pre-order.
EA is a large corporation, and generally the individual employees aren't allowed to post on forums or are very closely monitored what they can and can't say, and if there is community involvement it's handled through their PR team.
At the other companies I worked for, the employees read the forums and got as equally depressed at all the negativity, but were not allowed to post because our publisher would not allow that.
We are actively involved directly with our community and that can be both good and bad, but I think we do a pretty good job of remaining professional, and using our comments to help inform the discussion. There are loads of negative comments on these forums, and for the most part, we take it all in stride. But when a thread fills up with pages of comments that are not just complaining about the game, but specifically making accusations about the developers, the people who you all know by name on here, of not knowing what we are doing, of not being involved enough with our community, and of running a company that would fail in any other circumstances...well, how are we supposed to react? Our community seems to appreciate that we aren't just a faceless corporation like EA, but then some people call us out on those occasions where we react like human beings and make a post that shows some frustration.
--Cory
<img src="http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lov0al0HUC1qffpldo1_500.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I don't even actually know what everybody else is saying. But that whole bit about UWE and other dev studios etc etc, this deal with one person under the hood Spark WOULD have been unnaceptable anywhere else. This ain't a freaking iPhone game. It's a mammoth coding job...
6 staff or not.
I'm sure all of them are doing a several persons job
That's a good point. I can respect what you're saying. Coding is just disproportionately crucial though. Engine coding, Christ, that's the stuff people at Crytek or Epic spend years and years on. You can outsource some player models and concept art. Maybe you don't get results that are as good, but a coder has to be on board permanently. There is effectively only one coder in staff handling the engine stuff, Max. Having delt with a lot of coders, they love pressure and high-stress, and many take a "one cook in the kitchen" attitude. Often the most talented people are the most extreme with that mindset. That really hurts the game though, and delays things badly. Take it from me, who knows nothing about code, but I was on a mod where this scenario played out exactly.
I don't know what's going on at UWE, and it's too serious an accusation for them to entertain much, but I suspect there's truth to that in this case.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then react like human beings. Admit you never foreseen it to take this long and your direction has been wrong but you are learning. Rather than reassuring us with false hope. I never seem to see admittance of error, only the "positive spin" to get you out of saying "Hey we were wrong!".
I think we're just looking for you to hold your hands up before you give us the politicians speech and spin.
I think we're just looking for you to hold your hands up before you give us the politicians speech and spin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can't be too honest about these kind of mistakes because these kind of mistakes seem totally catastrophic. They would have to admit that there was a chance they could sink the whole project, which is not something they want to get into.
I see this more as a space for brutally honest discussion under the watchful but silent gaze of the devs :p
At the other companies I worked for, the employees read the forums and got as equally depressed at all the negativity, but were not allowed to post because our publisher would not allow that.
We are actively involved directly with our community and that can be both good and bad, but I think we do a pretty good job of remaining professional, and using our comments to help inform the discussion. There are loads of negative comments on these forums, and for the most part, we take it all in stride. But when a thread fills up with pages of comments that are not just complaining about the game, but specifically making accusations about the developers, the people who you all know by name on here, of not knowing what we are doing, of not being involved enough with our community, and of running a company that would fail in any other circumstances...well, how are we supposed to react? Our community seems to appreciate that we aren't just a faceless corporation like EA, but then some people call us out on those occasions where we react like human beings and make a post that shows some frustration.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're making a game, that's already more then most, if not all; that the forum whiners will ever achieve in their lives.
Whiny/Negative comments are always louder because it's easier to be vocal in a negative tone.
Whining is easy, it's the easiest way to start a conversation on any subject. The people who can serve you some constructive criticisms are usually those who are intelligent, observant and reasonable enough to be worth listening to, they are capable of getting a coherent message through that everybody can agree on. The game only gets better by this.
I'm saying its easier to see and to focus on the idiot(s) of the crowd holding their picket "GOD HATES NS2" signs, however low their numbers are, then to see the larger number of those who actually have something to help you progress.
And then there are the fans, don't forget the fans of the game.
Hopefully they can get your spirits up! but don't forget that they may be as incoherent and biased as the haters.
I see this more as a space for brutally honest discussion under the watchful but silent gaze of the devs :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That reminds me of the banking crisis, "WE ARE FINE HONEST!".... *BANKRUPTCY* ... Is that what you're saying?
Sort of. The devs want things to go smoothly, but of course people outside have opinions and raise concerns. Everybody is doing this under the spectre of bankruptcy, but we're all pulling for success.
I think everything I've said has been true, then you raise the question, is the truth negative? Man, I don't think so. Even if its not flattering, honesty is worth examining. Still, the devs could say, "but its not true, because you can't see this x or y that's going on behind the scenes." They're right, and I'm right, because I'm looking at what they let me look at. So it's complicated.
TL;DR: They need more than one engine coder, and they've needed that since the beginning. Now they know, and that's great.
There was once a really, really big battle guys. Are you listening to me guys? Really big. There were some guys fighting it, and I'm a show salesman.
Anyway, the point is: I sat in a REALLY comfy armchair and commanded the whole thing. The whole thing!
...
I was also 12 years old.
Who did this?
There was once a really, really big battle guys. Are you listening to me guys? Really big. There were some guys fighting it, and I'm a show salesman.
Anyway, the point is: I sat in a REALLY comfy armchair and commanded the whole thing. The whole thing!
...
I was also 12 years old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I have never seen more accurate and effective powers of summarizing. Well done sir, well done.
I would have thought when it says "Full version when done" you would have thought that this wasn't something that was going to be puked out in a few months. This isn't a group that has a huge long list of credits identifying multiple studios and large groups of people, but a group of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/about" target="_blank">six</a> people.
How many of the people here complaining have ever worked on a big game? Do y'all complain to groups like artists or musicians when they take long to give you something, too?
If not having this game done is really bothering you, then <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/jobs" target="_blank">apply</a> for a job.
...really?
$0.02
20-20 hindsight required though!
+1
With love