fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1873920:date=Sep 9 2011, 01:39 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 9 2011, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, thanks for the vote of confidence guys. *insert eye roll --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you've assuaged me. It's annoying to work hard on a map and push things to where youre very satisfied upon the island-like map editor, only to float out into the ugly, polluted waters of the beta-builds. I guess it's prejudiced me against the engine. That stuff about the effects seems pleasant enough. Although I have to disagree about Deus Ex, I'm partial to it. I think it looks pretty damn good.
We all know where you guys are at mentally and with your work ethic, and I think that you, Cory, have a lot to do with that. You communicating with the unruly folks like us does keep things on an even keel, so good work there.
<!--quoteo(post=1873921:date=Sep 9 2011, 01:49 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Sep 9 2011, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be worth listening to your community rather than antagonising them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say "neglecting" them more so than antagonizing*. I feel a little bad for Cory as he is the only one that is usually communicating with us (the investors), trying to help us better understand what is going on. Where has Flayra been to help with the PR control on a title he is directing?
I think it's kind of a cop-out to say you haven't implemented the JP feature because of the Prototype Lab being re-modeled. I do believe the Robotics Factory has changed in recent builds and was still implemented during the process, regardless of the current or future state of it's model. Having the feature available is much more important then how it looks. You implemented infestation without it working the way you want it, why is adding the Prototype Lab any different?
I would like to see more focus on performance and server management. Can you all imagine a beta program without any servers to test on? No one would pub the game, find issues, test maps, test mods, etc., etc. without individuals devoting their personal resources at this point setting up these servers. No server companies are supporting NS2 at this point do to the amount of resources it takes to run a server and how often you are forced to reset and kill it due to unstable server code. I recall nearly no one "pubbing" until the servers setup by Morbus(Tempest) went public. The servers ran by Morbus(Tempest) are incredible powerful for any type of server you can rent to date. The fact that even his servers has issues running NS2 is very disappointing. There is also nothing for us to help debug or troubleshoot OR even try to improve because the server logs are near useless with the information is logs.
Client and Server Performance is still number 1 in my book. I can live without jetpacks and onos if the game allows a $3500 machine to acquire 100FPS steady. It's very upsetting that people are investing into a game that 95% of them can't even run & participate in the beta program without wanting to rage quit due to performance discrepancies.
Thanks for taking the time to explain things Cory, but we are all still curious when your "estimated" 1.0 release of Natural Selection 2 actually is...
<!--quoteo(post=1873920:date=Sep 9 2011, 01:39 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 9 2011, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... There's a lot of trial and error, there's a lot of problems that come up and systems reworked and it often appears to the people on the inside that the game is going nowhere. Then, often in the last few months things sort of magically drop into place, the game being worked on comes together and gets the final bit of polish and it then its done. There are many successful games that if they'd been opened up for public scrutiny during the process would have been "deemed a failure". Its the nature of game development. Its messy, and often seems on the verge of falling apart, and no one can really know what it is like until they've worked at a game company themselves.
It is easy for everyone on the outside to sit and judge what we should and should not be working on, without knowing any of the dependencies. It is probably our fault for not giving you guys more information, but it just isn't practical to spend our time communicating every aspect of development. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This applies not only to video games, but software projects as a whole.
To be honest, I'd like to see less hand-holding with the community - they (we) will never understand. Just keep up the builds and listen to feedback, but don't feel too obligated to respond.
<u>Obligatory opinion:</u> Features first. Optimize second. Balance third.
tl;dr: Software is hard. Don't feed the trolls. Stop balancing, just add stuff.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1873924:date=Sep 9 2011, 02:33 PM:name=autograder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (autograder @ Sep 9 2011, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This applies not only to video games, but software projects as a whole.
To be honest, I'd like to see less hand-holding with the community - they (we) will never understand. Just keep up the builds and listen to feedback, but don't feel too obligated to respond.
<u>Obligatory opinion:</u> Features first. Optimize second. Balance third.
tl;dr: Software is hard. Don't feed the trolls. Stop balancing, just add stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Less hand-holding with the community" and "just add stuff" is an oxymoron. Look at Summit, the only playable map at the moment. If it weren't for the strong interaction and, at times, placating of the community, you probably wouldn't even have that addition to the game.
They deal with us because there are actually tangible benefits to doing so.
As a software developer who has also done game programming, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents FWIW. When I develop any product, I take two basic different approaches depending on the end user. One approach is build up a solid infrastructure (e.g. game engine) and <i>then</i> start working on the "meat". The other approach is sort of a 'ratcheting' schedule where I work back and forth between the two. It is pretty obvious that UWE is taking this ratcheting approach to NS2.
This ratcheting development schedule allows a small team (UWE) to quickly deploy new features from both ends of the spectrum and iteratively make the whole game better as time goes on. What is happening here is that when the ratchet is on one side over the other, people are going to shout and whine. What they don't understand is that once this large effort in (for instance gameplay changes) occurs, next up are major engine fixes. If we were in an opposite time and the engine was working decently and there were a lot of gameplay issues, people would complain about that. Most people don't understand or recognize this, so they say UWE should have built (or modified) a rock solid engine first and THEN only worried about gameplay and so called "minor tweaks" like how a lork works (best on a clorf IMO). Had UWE done this.....none of us would be here right now. They would have spent years getting an engine to work with nothing "to show" to the community that they could get there hands on....and so few would have pre-ordered without a promise of impending alpha/beta.
Yes the engine can be rough (I think it looks fine, but there are obvious performance issues) and yes even the core gameplay isn't all there (and even most of the ancillary gameplay is in major flux)....but I personally don't think UWE could have taken a different development approach, nor would we have liked it. I must admit I am one of those who questions the original idea of rolling their own engine, but at this stage it is well beyond complaining about. That ship has long since sailed and there is no going back.
At the end of the day, everyone needs to remember that they are a handful of guys with a tiny amount of money and nobody here except devs knows even half of what goes on. I think UWE has made good attempts to keep us in the loop...I just think that unless Charlie puts a live webcam feed of Max at his desk, some people just won't be satisfied.
<!--quoteo(post=1873923:date=Sep 9 2011, 06:21 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Sep 9 2011, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would say "neglecting" them more so than antagonizing*. I feel a little bad for Cory as he is the only one that is usually communicating with us (the investors), trying to help us better understand what is going on. Where has Flayra been to help with the PR control on a title he is directing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because he has much more important things to do then come on here and face a bunch of negative comments about how we have no direction and would be a failure if we were developing in an industry setting. <!--quoteo(post=1873923:date=Sep 9 2011, 06:21 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Sep 9 2011, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's kind of a cop-out to say you haven't implemented the JP feature because of the Prototype Lab being re-modeled<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is not what I said at all. I said that we ARE implementing it, and the Prototype Lab is merely the reason we might not release it publicly. The Protolab had no bearing on when we chose to work on the jetpack.
Wow, flaming discussion:s Relax guys! If there's any company I have absolutely 100% faith in, it is UWE. They have never dissapointed me in anything, ever, and most likely won't in the future either. Big credit to all of you!
<!--quoteo(post=1873934:date=Sep 9 2011, 03:07 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 9 2011, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We never thought we'd be playing the game. We are and it's not perfect. Big surprise.
Lets see some of those shaders that make the game look 10x better, and make everybody happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
Show us some screenshots of the future of NS2 and some goodies!
I've always liked it when a girl sends me a picture of her in her sexiest underwear before I actually get to see and try it out. Just saying.. <i>(trying to bring a little humor to this conversation)</i>
Just read Cory's post from the dev tracker. Geez people!
When you paid your money to participate in this process, you had to know it wasn't going to be like your standard 'play the beta a month before release' marketing ploy. UWE has a huge dream they are working extremely hard to realize. You've paid to be apart of that process. It's a long, dirty and chaotic process to put it mildly. But just look at the progress that has been made from the original engine test release. We've gone from shooting target dummies to having a pretty awesome fade blink and cyst-based DI along with flame-throwers and MACs and ARCs and grenade launchers. There's still lots to be done on many fronts, but to doubt UWE's ability to achieve those tasks at this point seems really childish.
Stop throwing fits and screaming just because your toy hasn't lived up to your imagination of it yet. Be a grown-up and have a sense of delayed-gratification. If you have to, go play something else while NS2 gets more features and polish. But please don't whine about a process you chose to invest your money in. No one forced you to do so.
Can't you just be happy that UWE has allowed us the opportunity to be involved in this process?
<!--quoteo(post=1873937:date=Sep 9 2011, 01:21 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Sep 9 2011, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just read Cory's post from the dev tracker. Geez people!
When you paid your money to participate in this process, you had to know it wasn't going to be like your standard 'play the beta a month before release' marketing ploy. UWE has a huge dream they are working extremely hard to realize. You've paid to be apart of that process. It's a long, dirty and chaotic process to put it mildly. But just look at the progress that has been made from the original engine test release. We've gone from shooting target dummies to having a pretty awesome fade blink and cyst-based DI along with flame-throwers and MACs and ARCs and grenade launchers. There's still lots to be done on many fronts, but to doubt UWE's ability to achieve those tasks at this point seems really childish.
Stop throwing fits and screaming just because your toy hasn't lived up to your imagination of it yet. Be a grown-up and have a sense of delayed-gratification. If you have to, go play something else while NS2 gets more features and polish. But please don't whine about a process you chose to invest your money in. No one forced you to do so.
Can't you just be happy that UWE has allowed us the opportunity to be involved in this process?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may have had a point 1-2 years ago. You dont now. Everyone is understandably frustrated. We are given access but left in the dark a lot of the times on key things going on. Our "Beta" is more of an Alpha. People have been excited about this game for a long time and it is waning again. Put in place holders and get features in the game. Pretty it up later >_<
The engine test was release on 4/9/10. That's less than 2 years ago. How could I have had a point about this before the engine test was released? If you're so frustrated with the 'Beta' that is more like an 'Alpha" go play something else for a few months. You ask them to add more features while complaining that the game is still 'more of an Alpha'? Patience is a virtue, you know?
I'm sure they could throw in some features with place-holder assets fairly quickly. It would also probably cause more bugs and instability. If you want something playable for your 'beta', you have to learn to live with the 'tick-tock' approach. Tick - some feature additions; Tock - some balances and performance improvements.
Look, I'm sure some of my gamer friends are dead-tired of me talking about NS2 for ~5 yrs now. I remember Neverwinter Nights and HL2 were in development for almost six years. Those are games with lots of money and people working on them, and they still had bugs and patches for years after release. Black Mesa Source is a very simple concept, and it's still unreleased. TF2 and DNF have won numerous Vaporware awards.
NS2's current build is on your PC and it is quite playable. If you no longer enjoy playing it for whatever reason, play something else until JP/Onos or whichever feature you want so bad is implemented. Just please refrain from telling the devs that they are 'failures'.
After stirring up the hive I would like to offer my apologies for some of the comments I have made, but unfortunately (for the most part) I remain unswayed. Given the evidence that is before me, staring me in the face, the excuses given for why certain features are missing is lacking. But it is useless to argue, UWE will do as they please and dismiss concerns as folly.
I doubt I will ever get to see this game in 1.0, I'll probably have stopped following the project by then (all those years from now).
I think the only doubt in my mind is whether or not NS2 will be able to reach the finish-line (v1.0). Even if it takes longer than expected (another year), I don't see any direct competition with this game to be honest, so they still have some time to spare. As long as the engine-section of the game is in proper condition (stable, good FPS, solid netcode), I'm thinking it'll get popular yet again. Sure at the time of alpha-release these forums were hotter than they ever were\have been since, and many of those have left, but NS2 still has a lot to offer that you can't really get anywhere else, so we might be seeing a lot of those folks return in due time.
That is to say _IF_ they reach v1.0 with a decently functioning engine (Lua we can fix, the engine we cannot).
<!--quoteo(post=1873920:date=Sep 9 2011, 01:39 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 9 2011, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, thanks for the vote of confidence guys. *insert eye roll<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry Cory, although I made this thread for people to bring up their gripes in the form of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and to AVOID NEGATIVITY, some people can't seem to do that. Yes the community is very demanding, informing the community better might help, a couple non-NS2HD vids might pitch up morale in the community, like progress on dynamic infestation or whatever it is that you guys are working on that the community may not have seen. Otherwise, thank you for answering all my questions, I hope you guys find an experienced programmer and I also hope that some people in this forum or at least this thread tone down the negativitiy ffs.
You've answered basically all my questions and most of my concerns and I hope for the best.
<!--quoteo(post=1873928:date=Sep 9 2011, 07:42 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 9 2011, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because he has much more important things to do then come on here and face a bunch of negative comments about how we have no direction and would be a failure if we were developing in an industry setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you're making a game, you've got investor backing AND peoples money from pre-ordering. I'd say you're developing a game in an industry. There's a fine line between failing your customer and failing your mission though. Clearly there's a mis-match with what failure and success is on both sides, although they do always say that "the customer is always right".
<!--quoteo(post=1873926:date=Sep 9 2011, 02:40 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 9 2011, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Less hand-holding with the community" and "just add stuff" is an oxymoron. Look at Summit, the only playable map at the moment. If it weren't for the strong interaction and, at times, placating of the community, you probably wouldn't even have that addition to the game.
They deal with us because there are actually tangible benefits to doing so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL - I have no idea where your comment comes from, mostly because I agree with it - the hand-holding I was referring to is the defending Cory does every so often, I wince every time I see it because I feel it is unnecessary. Then again, if someone was attacking my baby I couldn't resist the urge myself :D
<!--quoteo(post=1873949:date=Sep 9 2011, 02:19 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Sep 9 2011, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The engine test was release on 4/9/10. That's less than 2 years ago. How could I have had a point about this before the engine test was released? If you're so frustrated with the 'Beta' that is more like an 'Alpha" go play something else for a few months. You ask them to add more features while complaining that the game is still 'more of an Alpha'? Patience is a virtue, you know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said 1-2 years which means either or in between. This is why i am tired of the beta to be honest. I get people like you who respond that are just as clueless about the design of the game and the behind the "behind the scenes" action as i am. You know nothing other than what we all have been told. Dont sit there and tell me about place holders creating the obvious. I will be taking a break from this game and not asking for a refund on the shear fact that i love NS1. Hell i still play the damn game today.
These forums would be a lot better if there was more fact and less opinion. This goes for my posts as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1873970:date=Sep 9 2011, 06:00 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 9 2011, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow what some people expect after paying 20 bucks for a video game. You'd think they gave a kidney.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not sure where you got NS2 for $20, but I have spent over $100 worth of keys on NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1873971:date=Sep 10 2011, 12:04 AM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Sep 10 2011, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure where you got NS2 for $20, but I have spent over $100 worth of keys on NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
Well, listen: they call us investors right? So we're investors. Go meet with a board of directors etc, see how civil and "constructive" they often are.
Imagine a room full of hostile old fat men in suits. We're that, over the internet.
The only 'investing' people here are doing is emotional. We're <b>customers</b> and we're acting like it demanding more and more from the game. Investors don't care so much about the quality of the game as much as profit. I never understood why UWE seems to get touchy about negative stuff - is it because it resounds with feelings in the office? Surely not. You guys have a good thing going and it goes without saying they have alot of talent and experience. Cory's concept art always amazes me and its beyond me how the engine was basically written by ONE DUDE.
Whatever I or others say negatively about ns2 the fact is even in its current form i'd still rate it above nearly everything else on steam.
<!--quoteo(post=1873970:date=Sep 9 2011, 10:00 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 9 2011, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow what some people expect after paying 20 bucks for a video game. You'd think they gave a kidney.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it has partitially something to do with people wanting to believe in UWE instead of giving them the cold business treatment and getting refund right away. For me had this been any other company I would have asked refund one and a half years ago.
UWE also kind of relies in people being emotionally invested in this. They would have never got this far if people just thought rationally and bought the game when it's out. Taking some flak here and there is most likely a pretty expected and necessary evil with the decisions and buiness and development models they've chosen.
Comments
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you've assuaged me. It's annoying to work hard on a map and push things to where youre very satisfied upon the island-like map editor, only to float out into the ugly, polluted waters of the beta-builds. I guess it's prejudiced me against the engine. That stuff about the effects seems pleasant enough. Although I have to disagree about Deus Ex, I'm partial to it. I think it looks pretty damn good.
We all know where you guys are at mentally and with your work ethic, and I think that you, Cory, have a lot to do with that. You communicating with the unruly folks like us does keep things on an even keel, so good work there.
I would say "neglecting" them more so than antagonizing*. I feel a little bad for Cory as he is the only one that is usually communicating with us (the investors), trying to help us better understand what is going on. Where has Flayra been to help with the PR control on a title he is directing?
I think it's kind of a cop-out to say you haven't implemented the JP feature because of the Prototype Lab being re-modeled. I do believe the Robotics Factory has changed in recent builds and was still implemented during the process, regardless of the current or future state of it's model. Having the feature available is much more important then how it looks. You implemented infestation without it working the way you want it, why is adding the Prototype Lab any different?
I would like to see more focus on performance and server management. Can you all imagine a beta program without any servers to test on? No one would pub the game, find issues, test maps, test mods, etc., etc. without individuals devoting their personal resources at this point setting up these servers. No server companies are supporting NS2 at this point do to the amount of resources it takes to run a server and how often you are forced to reset and kill it due to unstable server code. I recall nearly no one "pubbing" until the servers setup by Morbus(Tempest) went public. The servers ran by Morbus(Tempest) are incredible powerful for any type of server you can rent to date. The fact that even his servers has issues running NS2 is very disappointing. There is also nothing for us to help debug or troubleshoot OR even try to improve because the server logs are near useless with the information is logs.
Client and Server Performance is still number 1 in my book. I can live without jetpacks and onos if the game allows a $3500 machine to acquire 100FPS steady. It's very upsetting that people are investing into a game that 95% of them can't even run & participate in the beta program without wanting to rage quit due to performance discrepancies.
Thanks for taking the time to explain things Cory, but we are all still curious when your "estimated" 1.0 release of Natural Selection 2 actually is...
There's a lot of trial and error, there's a lot of problems that come up and systems reworked and it often appears to the people on the inside that the game is going nowhere. Then, often in the last few months things sort of magically drop into place, the game being worked on comes together and gets the final bit of polish and it then its done. There are many successful games that if they'd been opened up for public scrutiny during the process would have been "deemed a failure". Its the nature of game development. Its messy, and often seems on the verge of falling apart, and no one can really know what it is like until they've worked at a game company themselves.
It is easy for everyone on the outside to sit and judge what we should and should not be working on, without knowing any of the dependencies. It is probably our fault for not giving you guys more information, but it just isn't practical to spend our time communicating every aspect of development.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This applies not only to video games, but software projects as a whole.
To be honest, I'd like to see less hand-holding with the community - they (we) will never understand. Just keep up the builds and listen to feedback, but don't feel too obligated to respond.
<u>Obligatory opinion:</u>
Features first.
Optimize second.
Balance third.
tl;dr:
Software is hard.
Don't feed the trolls.
Stop balancing, just add stuff.
To be honest, I'd like to see less hand-holding with the community - they (we) will never understand. Just keep up the builds and listen to feedback, but don't feel too obligated to respond.
<u>Obligatory opinion:</u>
Features first.
Optimize second.
Balance third.
tl;dr:
Software is hard.
Don't feed the trolls.
Stop balancing, just add stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Less hand-holding with the community" and "just add stuff" is an oxymoron. Look at Summit, the only playable map at the moment. If it weren't for the strong interaction and, at times, placating of the community, you probably wouldn't even have that addition to the game.
They deal with us because there are actually tangible benefits to doing so.
This ratcheting development schedule allows a small team (UWE) to quickly deploy new features from both ends of the spectrum and iteratively make the whole game better as time goes on. What is happening here is that when the ratchet is on one side over the other, people are going to shout and whine. What they don't understand is that once this large effort in (for instance gameplay changes) occurs, next up are major engine fixes. If we were in an opposite time and the engine was working decently and there were a lot of gameplay issues, people would complain about that. Most people don't understand or recognize this, so they say UWE should have built (or modified) a rock solid engine first and THEN only worried about gameplay and so called "minor tweaks" like how a lork works (best on a clorf IMO). Had UWE done this.....none of us would be here right now. They would have spent years getting an engine to work with nothing "to show" to the community that they could get there hands on....and so few would have pre-ordered without a promise of impending alpha/beta.
Yes the engine can be rough (I think it looks fine, but there are obvious performance issues) and yes even the core gameplay isn't all there (and even most of the ancillary gameplay is in major flux)....but I personally don't think UWE could have taken a different development approach, nor would we have liked it. I must admit I am one of those who questions the original idea of rolling their own engine, but at this stage it is well beyond complaining about. That ship has long since sailed and there is no going back.
At the end of the day, everyone needs to remember that they are a handful of guys with a tiny amount of money and nobody here except devs knows even half of what goes on. I think UWE has made good attempts to keep us in the loop...I just think that unless Charlie puts a live webcam feed of Max at his desk, some people just won't be satisfied.
Because he has much more important things to do then come on here and face a bunch of negative comments about how we have no direction and would be a failure if we were developing in an industry setting.
<!--quoteo(post=1873923:date=Sep 9 2011, 06:21 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Sep 9 2011, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's kind of a cop-out to say you haven't implemented the JP feature because of the Prototype Lab being re-modeled<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is not what I said at all. I said that we ARE implementing it, and the Prototype Lab is merely the reason we might not release it publicly. The Protolab had no bearing on when we chose to work on the jetpack.
--Cory
If there's any company I have absolutely 100% faith in, it is UWE. They have never dissapointed me in anything, ever, and most likely won't in the future either.
Big credit to all of you!
Lets see some of those shaders that make the game look 10x better, and make everybody happy.
Lets see some of those shaders that make the game look 10x better, and make everybody happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Show us some screenshots of the future of NS2 and some goodies!
I've always liked it when a girl sends me a picture of her in her sexiest underwear before I actually get to see and try it out. Just saying..
<i>(trying to bring a little humor to this conversation)</i>
When you paid your money to participate in this process, you had to know it wasn't going to be like your standard 'play the beta a month before release' marketing ploy. UWE has a huge dream they are working extremely hard to realize. You've paid to be apart of that process. It's a long, dirty and chaotic process to put it mildly. But just look at the progress that has been made from the original engine test release. We've gone from shooting target dummies to having a pretty awesome fade blink and cyst-based DI along with flame-throwers and MACs and ARCs and grenade launchers. There's still lots to be done on many fronts, but to doubt UWE's ability to achieve those tasks at this point seems really childish.
Stop throwing fits and screaming just because your toy hasn't lived up to your imagination of it yet. Be a grown-up and have a sense of delayed-gratification. If you have to, go play something else while NS2 gets more features and polish. But please don't whine about a process you chose to invest your money in. No one forced you to do so.
Can't you just be happy that UWE has allowed us the opportunity to be involved in this process?
Couldn't have said it better myself
When you paid your money to participate in this process, you had to know it wasn't going to be like your standard 'play the beta a month before release' marketing ploy. UWE has a huge dream they are working extremely hard to realize. You've paid to be apart of that process. It's a long, dirty and chaotic process to put it mildly. But just look at the progress that has been made from the original engine test release. We've gone from shooting target dummies to having a pretty awesome fade blink and cyst-based DI along with flame-throwers and MACs and ARCs and grenade launchers. There's still lots to be done on many fronts, but to doubt UWE's ability to achieve those tasks at this point seems really childish.
Stop throwing fits and screaming just because your toy hasn't lived up to your imagination of it yet. Be a grown-up and have a sense of delayed-gratification. If you have to, go play something else while NS2 gets more features and polish. But please don't whine about a process you chose to invest your money in. No one forced you to do so.
Can't you just be happy that UWE has allowed us the opportunity to be involved in this process?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may have had a point 1-2 years ago. You dont now. Everyone is understandably frustrated. We are given access but left in the dark a lot of the times on key things going on. Our "Beta" is more of an Alpha. People have been excited about this game for a long time and it is waning again. Put in place holders and get features in the game. Pretty it up later >_<
I'm sure they could throw in some features with place-holder assets fairly quickly. It would also probably cause more bugs and instability. If you want something playable for your 'beta', you have to learn to live with the 'tick-tock' approach. Tick - some feature additions; Tock - some balances and performance improvements.
Look, I'm sure some of my gamer friends are dead-tired of me talking about NS2 for ~5 yrs now. I remember Neverwinter Nights and HL2 were in development for almost six years. Those are games with lots of money and people working on them, and they still had bugs and patches for years after release. Black Mesa Source is a very simple concept, and it's still unreleased. TF2 and DNF have won numerous Vaporware awards.
NS2's current build is on your PC and it is quite playable. If you no longer enjoy playing it for whatever reason, play something else until JP/Onos or whichever feature you want so bad is implemented. Just please refrain from telling the devs that they are 'failures'.
DNF is badware, not vaporware, now.
I doubt I will ever get to see this game in 1.0, I'll probably have stopped following the project by then (all those years from now).
That is to say _IF_ they reach v1.0 with a decently functioning engine (Lua we can fix, the engine we cannot).
Don't worry Cory, although I made this thread for people to bring up their gripes in the form of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and to AVOID NEGATIVITY, some people can't seem to do that. Yes the community is very demanding, informing the community better might help, a couple non-NS2HD vids might pitch up morale in the community, like progress on dynamic infestation or whatever it is that you guys are working on that the community may not have seen. Otherwise, thank you for answering all my questions, I hope you guys find an experienced programmer and I also hope that some people in this forum or at least this thread tone down the negativitiy ffs.
You've answered basically all my questions and most of my concerns and I hope for the best.
Well you're making a game, you've got investor backing AND peoples money from pre-ordering. I'd say you're developing a game in an industry. There's a fine line between failing your customer and failing your mission though. Clearly there's a mis-match with what failure and success is on both sides, although they do always say that "the customer is always right".
They deal with us because there are actually tangible benefits to doing so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL - I have no idea where your comment comes from, mostly because I agree with it - the hand-holding I was referring to is the defending Cory does every so often, I wince every time I see it because I feel it is unnecessary. Then again, if someone was attacking my baby I couldn't resist the urge myself :D
I said 1-2 years which means either or in between. This is why i am tired of the beta to be honest. I get people like you who respond that are just as clueless about the design of the game and the behind the "behind the scenes" action as i am. You know nothing other than what we all have been told. Dont sit there and tell me about place holders creating the obvious. I will be taking a break from this game and not asking for a refund on the shear fact that i love NS1. Hell i still play the damn game today.
These forums would be a lot better if there was more fact and less opinion. This goes for my posts as well.
Not sure where you got NS2 for $20, but I have spent over $100 worth of keys on NS2.
Holy cow you should feel very entitled now.
Imagine a room full of hostile old fat men in suits. We're that, over the internet.
I never understood why UWE seems to get touchy about negative stuff - is it because it resounds with feelings in the office? Surely not. You guys have a good thing going and it goes without saying they have alot of talent and experience. Cory's concept art always amazes me and its beyond me how the engine was basically written by ONE DUDE.
Whatever I or others say negatively about ns2 the fact is even in its current form i'd still rate it above nearly everything else on steam.
I think it has partitially something to do with people wanting to believe in UWE instead of giving them the cold business treatment and getting refund right away. For me had this been any other company I would have asked refund one and a half years ago.
UWE also kind of relies in people being emotionally invested in this. They would have never got this far if people just thought rationally and bought the game when it's out. Taking some flak here and there is most likely a pretty expected and necessary evil with the decisions and buiness and development models they've chosen.