X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
To me personally, the thing that drives me mad about Soldiers is that it's almost impossible to take them out without taking damage, unless you're a sniper with room to dodge the rockets that they *will* shoot at you.
It's most obvious in the indoor sections of maps, but still happens in outdoor areas with a soldier of any skill. I don't know why it bugs me so much, but pretty much any other class you can take out without getting hit once, but a soldier doesn't even have to hit you to cause decent damage. Which is annoying.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2008
Hehe yeah LF and the funny thing is that the Valve commentaries state that the scout should be the nemisis for the soldier, because he can dodge. But to be a nemisis you have to kill your pray, the scattergun forces you to go in close where the soldier excels in doing any kind of damage (even without crits) so your uberscoutdodging wont do you any good against a soldier. Not saying his scattergun should be replaced by something of longer range as that would overpower the scout.
Well at least he has a seconday pistol, to soften up the soldier, but then you also lose your element of surprise... Also a rocketjump is much faster then the scouts top speed and does damage to you when in the killzone of the soldier, leaving you either dead or trying to close the gap once more while on low health.
So who's the real nemisis/pray here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Don't use the scout's pistol to soften up an opponent before going in for the kill. You very much want to have surprise on your side. It's okay to pistol a soldier a little if he has already noticed you, but in such a case you shouldn't fight to kill unless you suspect him to be low on health. Instead, try to catch him by surprise, go in close and blast him as much as you dare before he notices you (usually no more than two shots, sometimes only one if he's alert), then retreat and finish him off with the pistol. If a soldier notices you BEFORE you get close, don't even try. Use your speed to escape him, grab a medpack, then come back and see if he has forgotten about you.
If the scout is anyone's nemesis, it's probably the medic's. You're the only class that can always chase a medic down, and if he draws his bonesaw you have the speed to escape before he strikes, and to stay outside range. If he turns around and flees you can chase him down again, and so on. And if he gets lucky and lands some solid hits on you with the syringe gun, you can run away and find medpacks or a friendly medic. Just watch that bonesaw, it's deadly and medics love it. CONSTANTLY be on the watch when fighting a medic, they move fast.
A good scout is also nasty for Pyros as while the flamer is difficult to dodge, it's limited range means you can just pelt the pyro from outside their reach. The only recourse for the pyro is to switch to their shotgun which isn't exactly designed for encounters beyond flamer range, unlike your pistol, and worst comes to worst you can run away; an option the pyro won't have =3
<!--quoteo(post=1677828:date=May 6 2008, 11:31 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ May 6 2008, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what do you think the scout upgrades will be, when they come out. Bound to be something really annoying. Like he can knock a baseball towards you, which doesn't do anything but slow you down (because, obviously, he aims for the balls).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, they better not steal my idea without giving me credit, or I'll *sue*.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
Yeah, heavy's nice. When I hold down my trigger, I KNOW the enemies in front of me will feel the pain. I can't git stuff with the scout, so that's a bit of a contrast to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1678186:date=May 9 2008, 04:35 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 9 2008, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I doubt it. You don't see teams of 100% soldiers (bar a medic or three), do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->In competitive play the top-ranking teams always have at least 1 soldier per team. Most 6 player TF2 teams have 2 Soldiers and at least 1 Medic and 1 Scout. The Sniper and Demo are rarely used. Engineers, Heavies, Pyros and Spies are almost never used. A fair point is that TF2 is rarely ever played with 6v6, and that larger 7v7 or 8v8 competitive events would give a more reliable indication, unfortunately I don't know much about those contests.
What I do know is that the Soldier-Medic is still an awesome combination and by far the best use of an uber due to the Soldier's superior manouvrebility over a Pyro. A good soldier can juggle an ubered Pyro and keep him away from the rest of his team, but you can't really juggle an ubered soldier because he can juggle himself with impunity! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
As for Snipers, yeah they can totally dominate a server if nobody uses the Spy as a hard counter. If you're getting backstabbed all the time by a Spy you simply won't want to play Sniper. Most maps are ok for this but Dustbowl and 2Fort suffer from long Spy-to-SniperTent travel times.
[Edit] Even if the fragvid does edit out all the misses, there's no way you can underestimate how good Reptile is. When I came back to playing TF2 after the patch I found I was running out of ammo a lot quicker, so aty least they've reduced the spamming to some extent. One way to counter a Soldier is to make sure you're picking up any stray ammo lying around. It's not a hard counter, but it'll make them resort to Shotgun and slow them down.
<!--quoteo(post=1678419:date=May 12 2008, 11:53 AM:name=Dirty_Harry_Potter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dirty_Harry_Potter @ May 12 2008, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone have any idea as to what the next class update will be? That is, what class that will be featured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is confirmed by a valve employee: Demoman: Boomshine: Replaces bottle, one time use suicide attack. Big Bertha: Replaces Grenade Launcher, nades explode on impact with lower ROF Dynamite: Replaces Sticky Launcher, pretty much works like the TFC cluster bombs but has very few ammo.
Of course, this information is disclosed and subject to change. So dont complain, when the big bertha gets renamed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1678422:date=May 12 2008, 12:02 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ May 12 2008, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is confirmed by a valve employee: Demoman: Boomshine: Replaces bottle, one time use suicide attack. Big Bertha: Replaces Grenade Launcher, nades explode on impact with lower ROF Dynamite: Replaces Sticky Launcher, pretty much works like the TFC cluster bombs but has very few ammo.
Of course, this information is disclosed and subject to change. So dont complain, when the big bertha gets renamed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if want <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Even with slower rof the demo will become a v.2 soldier and the bottle thing is just stupid, whenever you bring out to the bottle it's the last resort, so getting a suicide kill every time would be worth it for the demo. I'm not sure how the cluster bombs worked in TFC though so no comment on that.
<!--quoteo(post=1678440:date=May 12 2008, 03:33 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ May 12 2008, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]whenever you bring out to the bottle it's the last resort[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pour boomshine into bottle This is my last resort Big explosion No counter Don't give a ###### if the balance flounders
The demoman is freaking slow. I dont see a real problem with this kind of suicide attack on a slow class. (Although using the stickly launcher to propel yourself towards a soldier and then have him taste boomshine sounds like awesome!)
<!--quoteo(post=1678421:date=May 12 2008, 12:01 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 12 2008, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In competitive play the top-ranking teams always have at least 1 soldier per team. Most 6 player TF2 teams have 2 Soldiers and at least 1 Medic and 1 Scout. The Sniper and Demo are rarely used. Engineers, Heavies, Pyros and Spies are almost never used. A fair point is that TF2 is rarely ever played with 6v6, and that larger 7v7 or 8v8 competitive events would give a more reliable indication, unfortunately I don't know much about those contests.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, but you see how they stay with at most 2 out of 6? Hence, no 100% soldier teams. I don't know why they wouldn't use demomen though, since good demomen are really dangerous. I expect its just for more offensive push.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1678453:date=May 12 2008, 11:38 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 12 2008, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but you see how they stay with at most 2 out of 6? Hence, no 100% soldier teams. I don't know why they wouldn't use demomen though, since good demomen are really dangerous. I expect its just for more offensive push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the scrims I've played it's always been 2 medics and the rest soldiers and demos. I've see scout/sniper for certain points on certain maps(and a spy to counter), but it's mostly soldier and demo.
Together, the three can take on anything, being from all 3 categories. Including eachother. Scouts die to skillrockets and explosives in general, pyro gets juggled away, heavy gets stickies under his feet unless he dies from rockets first, engineer lol, sniper double lol, spy gets spychecked. Doesn't really mean soldiers are overpowered, just that explosives en masse solves all problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1678453:date=May 12 2008, 04:38 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 12 2008, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but you see how they stay with at most 2 out of 6? Hence, no 100% soldier teams. I don't know why they wouldn't use demomen though, since good demomen are really dangerous. I expect its just for more offensive push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->They are light, so they die easy and get juggled more easily, their sticky-jump leaves them with barely any health, and their grenades don't explode on impact.
They are more defensive than offensive, and in competitive TF2 it doesn't pay to be defensive because leaving a man out of the offense means your frontline will crumble and the spawns will shift back miles away from the front.
Scouts were mainly used to get behind the enemy and take out the medics, and to frontrun to the next CP for a lightning cap.
The idea that a whole team would go a class because it's overpowered id silly... you still need people to go medic after all, for lovely uberage =3
Explosive weapons are always tricky to balance out in games though. I did hear they'd reduced the ammo pool for soldiers a bit which cuts down the spam a lil but I still think they're a bad class. Not necessarily unbalanced, just ill-fitted.
I think the demo-man fulfills the explosives role lots better; less health, more likely to kill themselves as well if they manage to close-range you and their spam is only dangerous if it directly hits you.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Hmm, minelauncher vs dynamite. minelauncher it is. Boomshine, I'd rather have me bottle! Big Bertha sounds fun though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Don't know how to make the video show up yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->[youtube]VdK-IBtBTXI[/youtube] only using the querystring<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VdK-IBtBTXI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VdK-IBtBTXI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><div align="center"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI</a></div>
Also might I add that this youtube actually rivals the scout in annoyance level <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
It's most obvious in the indoor sections of maps, but still happens in outdoor areas with a soldier of any skill. I don't know why it bugs me so much, but pretty much any other class you can take out without getting hit once, but a soldier doesn't even have to hit you to cause decent damage. Which is annoying.
Well at least he has a seconday pistol, to soften up the soldier, but then you also lose your element of surprise... Also a rocketjump is much faster then the scouts top speed and does damage to you when in the killzone of the soldier, leaving you either dead or trying to close the gap once more while on low health.
So who's the real nemisis/pray here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
If the scout is anyone's nemesis, it's probably the medic's. You're the only class that can always chase a medic down, and if he draws his bonesaw you have the speed to escape before he strikes, and to stay outside range. If he turns around and flees you can chase him down again, and so on. And if he gets lucky and lands some solid hits on you with the syringe gun, you can run away and find medpacks or a friendly medic. Just watch that bonesaw, it's deadly and medics love it. CONSTANTLY be on the watch when fighting a medic, they move fast.
Like WHOOSH!
Then the Scout is GONE!
pro tip: Also, he has a pistol with which he can shoot people!
<!--quoteo(post=1677828:date=May 6 2008, 11:31 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ May 6 2008, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what do you think the scout upgrades will be, when they come out. Bound to be something really annoying. Like he can knock a baseball towards you, which doesn't do anything but slow you down (because, obviously, he aims for the balls).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, they better not steal my idea without giving me credit, or I'll *sue*.
SO HOW ABOUT THAT HEAVY, HUH.
HE SURE LIKES SHOOTING HIS GUN.
But seriously, I think Heavy is my favourite class to play. I have more playtime on demo, soldier and engineer, but heavy is just..... fun.
What I do know is that the Soldier-Medic is still an awesome combination and by far the best use of an uber due to the Soldier's superior manouvrebility over a Pyro. A good soldier can juggle an ubered Pyro and keep him away from the rest of his team, but you can't really juggle an ubered soldier because he can juggle himself with impunity! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
As for Snipers, yeah they can totally dominate a server if nobody uses the Spy as a hard counter. If you're getting backstabbed all the time by a Spy you simply won't want to play Sniper. Most maps are ok for this but Dustbowl and 2Fort suffer from long Spy-to-SniperTent travel times.
[Edit] Even if the fragvid does edit out all the misses, there's no way you can underestimate how good Reptile is. When I came back to playing TF2 after the patch I found I was running out of ammo a lot quicker, so aty least they've reduced the spamming to some extent. One way to counter a Soldier is to make sure you're picking up any stray ammo lying around. It's not a hard counter, but it'll make them resort to Shotgun and slow them down.
This is confirmed by a valve employee:
Demoman:
Boomshine: Replaces bottle, one time use suicide attack.
Big Bertha: Replaces Grenade Launcher, nades explode on impact with lower ROF
Dynamite: Replaces Sticky Launcher, pretty much works like the TFC cluster bombs but has very few ammo.
Of course, this information is disclosed and subject to change. So dont complain, when the big bertha gets renamed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IBrFTDGjSVw"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IBrFTDGjSVw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Now we're getting it!
Demoman:
Boomshine: Replaces bottle, one time use suicide attack.
Big Bertha: Replaces Grenade Launcher, nades explode on impact with lower ROF
Dynamite: Replaces Sticky Launcher, pretty much works like the TFC cluster bombs but has very few ammo.
Of course, this information is disclosed and subject to change. So dont complain, when the big bertha gets renamed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if want <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Even with slower rof the demo will become a v.2 soldier and the bottle thing is just stupid, whenever you bring out to the bottle it's the last resort, so getting a suicide kill every time would be worth it for the demo. I'm not sure how the cluster bombs worked in TFC though so no comment on that.
Pour boomshine into bottle
This is my last resort
Big explosion
No counter
Don't give a ###### if the balance flounders
This is my last resort
(Although using the stickly launcher to propel yourself towards a soldier and then have him taste boomshine sounds like awesome!)
I don't know why they wouldn't use demomen though, since good demomen are really dangerous. I expect its just for more offensive push.
I don't know why they wouldn't use demomen though, since good demomen are really dangerous. I expect its just for more offensive push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the scrims I've played it's always been 2 medics and the rest soldiers and demos. I've see scout/sniper for certain points on certain maps(and a spy to counter), but it's mostly soldier and demo.
Doesn't really mean soldiers are overpowered, just that explosives en masse solves all problems.
With a fuse, faster classes can run away, and slower classes can attempt to juggle or kill. Without a fuse, it's an "I win"-button for melee.
I don't know why they wouldn't use demomen though, since good demomen are really dangerous. I expect its just for more offensive push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->They are light, so they die easy and get juggled more easily, their sticky-jump leaves them with barely any health, and their grenades don't explode on impact.
They are more defensive than offensive, and in competitive TF2 it doesn't pay to be defensive because leaving a man out of the offense means your frontline will crumble and the spawns will shift back miles away from the front.
Scouts were mainly used to get behind the enemy and take out the medics, and to frontrun to the next CP for a lightning cap.
Explosive weapons are always tricky to balance out in games though. I did hear they'd reduced the ammo pool for soldiers a bit which cuts down the spam a lil but I still think they're a bad class. Not necessarily unbalanced, just ill-fitted.
I think the demo-man fulfills the explosives role lots better; less health, more likely to kill themselves as well if they manage to close-range you and their spam is only dangerous if it directly hits you.
[]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I lol'd haha
-
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI</a>
Don't know how to make the video show up yet.
-
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI</a>
Don't know how to make the video show up yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->[youtube]VdK-IBtBTXI[/youtube]
only using the querystring<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VdK-IBtBTXI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VdK-IBtBTXI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><div align="center"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdK-IBtBTXI</a></div>
Also might I add that this youtube actually rivals the scout in annoyance level <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />