Heres what I have to say about the update: Not all games should be WoW. Unlockables in a game like this are retarded. The achievements make them doubly retarded. Actually, grind is retarded no matter what game its in. Unfortunately, I can't punish valve for their stupidity because I already paid them, so I'll just be uninstalling TF2 so I will always remember it how it was before WoWification.
if they want things to be unlocked, they should have done either what EA did with battlefields (basically get enough kills and you unlock new things), or what Nintendo did with Smash Bros (sure, you can complete strange requirements to unlock characters... OR you can just play enough matches and they'll naturally unlock).
honestly, they should have rewarded people who have already put hundreds of hours into TF2 by having them get auto-rewarded the achievements... I played the game for maybe 150 or 200 hours before getting bored of it, and when this patch came around, I was looking forward to coming back to the game to try the new weapons out... but I don't want to play a vanilla game I'm already bored of in order to eventually unlock things to make one class slightly different -_-
Oh well, at least you're getting a head start on the Chief of Staff achievement. Imagine those suckers who never played medic until now, they've got their work cut out for them.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited May 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1677705:date=May 5 2008, 12:16 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ May 5 2008, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->honestly, they should have rewarded people who have already put hundreds of hours into TF2 by having them get auto-rewarded the achievements... I played the game for maybe 150 or 200 hours before getting bored of it, and when this patch came around, I was looking forward to coming back to the game to try the new weapons out... but I don't want to play a vanilla game I'm already bored of in order to eventually unlock things to make one class slightly different -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You echo my sentiments. I was hoping to get to play with these new weapons and also have some new achievements to get if I felt like it... It sucks that I'm being forced to do it to try to get the weapons... It makes me want to farm them so I can have the guns which sucks because then I wouldn't have them to work towards anymore. (Which is exactly why I didn't use the console command)
At first I actually thought Valve might have left that command in so that people could play the game how they want to. They could either have the weapons that were supposed to provide a different experience, or work up to it. It wouldn't have mattered if the weapons were actually balanced with the current weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1677705:date=May 5 2008, 05:16 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ May 5 2008, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if they want things to be unlocked, they should have done either what EA did with battlefields (basically get enough kills and you unlock new things), or what Nintendo did with Smash Bros (sure, you can complete strange requirements to unlock characters... OR you can just play enough matches and they'll naturally unlock).
honestly, they should have rewarded people who have already put hundreds of hours into TF2 by having them get auto-rewarded the achievements... I played the game for maybe 150 or 200 hours before getting bored of it, and when this patch came around, I was looking forward to coming back to the game to try the new weapons out... but I don't want to play a vanilla game I'm already bored of in order to eventually unlock things to make one class slightly different -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Pretty much sums it up for me. These grind achievements really are at odds with the concept that TF2 is supposed to be something you play for maybe 30 minutes at a time (and maybe once or twice a week).
I've got the Blutsaugher (which isn't overpowered btw) and I'm a few achs off the Kritzkrieg, but it'll be simply ages of playing the same game I already got bored with. Instead of me playing the game for a while to unlock achievements gradually, I've resorted to farming (I know, it's shameful, but I don't like the fact there is part of the game I just can't play with due to limited time constraints).
Sooo many other players are doing this. Honestly a few NSers and friends went onto a server because it was friendly fire and it had a voteban option. TF2 has turned us into morons, I tell you! Every time someone joined us who wanted to -you know- <i>actually play the game</i> we votebanned them off. Considering this is a free weekend, I shudder to think what kind of introduction this is to new players. I feel ashamed that we acted that way, but we're between a rock and a hard place knowing that there is part of the game we can't play without farming.
Wake up and smell the roses, Valve: TF2 needs more maps and game modes, not out-of-reach achievements that turn the game into a negative farmfest. Goldrush is the only positive thing to come out of this update.
<!--quoteo(post=1677721:date=May 5 2008, 12:47 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 5 2008, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]Honestly a few NSers and friends went onto a server because it was friendly fire and it had a voteban option. TF2 has turned us into morons, I tell you! Every time someone joined us who wanted to -you know- <i>actually play the game</i> we votebanned them off.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh wow. Oh man, I was about to lay into you there, but then I realised that VIDEOGAMES MADE YOU DO IT, which means that you are absolved of all blame. Man, those video games. Is nothing holy to them?
<!--quoteo(post=1677722:date=May 5 2008, 11:56 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 5 2008, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh wow. Oh man, I was about to lay into you there, but then I realised that VIDEOGAMES MADE YOU DO IT, which means that you are absolved of all blame. Man, those video games. Is nothing holy to them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You seem to have taken a taxi to the airport and a plane to a different continent to the one the point is located at. In other words: you totally missed it.
The point is when you design a game, especially a multiplayer game, you need to consider not only how the game will be played according to your design, but how that design can be interpreted in different ways, especially ways that undermine your goals to produce negative gameplay. Valve have failed to recognise that their <u>casual</u> multiplayer now offers people who <u>non-casually</u> grind more to the game than those the game is aimed at.
They have also failed to see that people are far more likely to want to get these unlocks quickly than slowly. On the whole, the unlocks have not been designed to accomodate only continual play. About 90% are totally open to achievement-farming.
Finally, this achievement-farming is giving a very negative first impression of the game to new players on the free weekend.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
Tell ya what, this medic uber exploit is really annoying. Even if they don't actually do anything with it (i.e. they just run around), they still draw fire from sentries which makes them useless (the sentries), and anyone on the team sufficiently annoyed at them.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1677660:date=May 4 2008, 03:56 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ May 4 2008, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meh kirtzkrieg is kinda pointless in a "normal game". It helps greatly though if you are trying to get the "punch 2guys with a heavy during uber" "xplode 5 guys with a soldier during uber" etc. achievements. For me the kritzkrieg is more like a fun toy. Scout and medic going toe to toe with a heavy and then having a 100% crit chance helps, but so does having 10 seconds where oyu can just beat the heavy silly and all he can do in return is run away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm really interested though in what happens when two medics uber the same HWguy when one has a Kritzkrieg. Seems like lots of death.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1677752:date=May 5 2008, 05:11 PM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ May 5 2008, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh it is.
I thought about using the critzkrieg early in set-up time to place 8 crit-stickies. Wouldn't that be a good investment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any half decent team blows away stickies as soon as the gate opens, although I guess you might get one or two random lucky kills after they've been blown about all over the place. I don't think it's worth wasting any uber on though.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
If you switch your kritzuber between two or three demos it could be very good because you would have staggered critical stickies... (i.e. one demoman blows them up first, then the next...)
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
as a heavy i got ubered by 2 other people (i think 2 nsers, maybe vahn and thansal?) when one gave me invinc and the other gave me crits. took out their entire team in about 4 seconds.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
Anyone else been assaulting as a heavy, get ubered by your medic and charge in, only for the medic to take the uber off and get someone else because they're trying to get the Second Opinion achievement, so you get splatted?
I never know whether to be angry at the medic or embarassed for myself.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
I have never had them switch b/c of second opinion, just have them switch b/c they are idiots <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
seriously, medics NEED to play with VC.
If you randomly uber me I am probably going to get jack and squat done (lack of ammo, reloading, not knowing wth I am going for, or even just being caught flat footed).
My opinion of the Kritzkrieg did NOT improve yesterday. Soldier/medic pair came in with Kritzkrieg über. Medic übered me with regular über. I murdered them. It may be useful in combination, but it doesn't stand on its own very well at all.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
So what do you think the scout upgrades will be, when they come out. Bound to be something really annoying. Like he can knock a baseball towards you, which doesn't do anything but slow you down (because, obviously, he aims for the balls).
<!--quoteo(post=1677828:date=May 6 2008, 12:31 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ May 6 2008, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what do you think the scout upgrades will be, when they come out. Bound to be something really annoying. Like he can knock a baseball towards you, which doesn't do anything but slow you down (because, obviously, he aims for the balls).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd guess(wish) a bat which speeds you up on each successful hit or improved knockback when batting someone. Pistol would be upgraded to slowing people down with each shot. Scattergun could allow you to get a temporary extra mid air jump for each enemy you shoot on while in midair or it acts like a rocket launcher but without the damage, you can shoot at your feet to fly up in the air.
Pyro should get some progress thingy for his flamethrower so he/she can make sum special attack after filling up enough burn damage, like, 5x range or never stop burning less healed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My opinion of the Kritzkrieg did NOT improve yesterday. Soldier/medic pair came in with Kritzkrieg über. Medic übered me with regular über. I murdered them. It may be useful in combination, but it doesn't stand on its own very well at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, kritzkrieg requires other situations then uber but I still feel it's often more useful then uber after getting used to not being godmoded, if someone counter with uber I just shoot at their feet and send them flying with the extra knockback.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1677830:date=May 6 2008, 06:45 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 6 2008, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to latch onto your back and yell in your ears. Don't ever 1-on-1 him, he's content to do that for hours on end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> God, just thinking about that makes me cringe. It's going to happen too.
<!--quoteo(post=1677833:date=May 6 2008, 01:06 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ May 6 2008, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the Kritz is good for taking out SGs that are being camped by an engie as they CAN'T repair faster then you can damage.
However for most situations, the Uber is better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crits don't affect damage on sentrys, so unless it's very close or you are a demoman it doesn't work so well against being uber'd.
The best way to take out a sentry gun is still usually a pyro. Not if it's in a difficult to access position, granted, but otherwise yes. Just run up to it and flame away. If your medic runs along with you to take his share of the knockback you'll get there in no time. Then just burn down the sentry, and the engineer with it if he hasn't fled.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
edited May 2008
I just found out something amusing (it's probably common knowledge, but I only just found out because I'm stupid). If you heal someone using the uber medic bug, it knocks the uber off. So if there's a red medic running around with the uber bug (i.e. ubered constantly), and a red medic uses the heal gun on them for just a second, it knocks the uber off (so they can be killed).
Even more amusingly, this seems to annoy the exploiters far more than the exploit annoys the rest of us. So you can quite happily spend a few hours of gaming gleefully screwing with the exploiters (I just spent an hour long game doing nothing but this, and actually got quite a few achievements randomly for doing it). It is much fun.
**EDIT** Just checked the update news, and according to valve, they've fixed the exploit. Well... they ain't, because in the aforementioned game there were 6 medics using it (on the red team, on dustbowl, so they were blocking each exit with 2 ubered medics. Highly annoying).
<!--quoteo(post=1677837:date=May 6 2008, 12:19 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ May 6 2008, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crits don't affect damage on sentrys, so unless it's very close or you are a demoman it doesn't work so well against being uber'd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It does affect the damage dealt to the puny Engy frantically wrench-pounding behind it! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
honestly, they should have rewarded people who have already put hundreds of hours into TF2 by having them get auto-rewarded the achievements... I played the game for maybe 150 or 200 hours before getting bored of it, and when this patch came around, I was looking forward to coming back to the game to try the new weapons out... but I don't want to play a vanilla game I'm already bored of in order to eventually unlock things to make one class slightly different -_-
You echo my sentiments. I was hoping to get to play with these new weapons and also have some new achievements to get if I felt like it... It sucks that I'm being forced to do it to try to get the weapons... It makes me want to farm them so I can have the guns which sucks because then I wouldn't have them to work towards anymore. (Which is exactly why I didn't use the console command)
At first I actually thought Valve might have left that command in so that people could play the game how they want to. They could either have the weapons that were supposed to provide a different experience, or work up to it. It wouldn't have mattered if the weapons were actually balanced with the current weapons.
Meh.
honestly, they should have rewarded people who have already put hundreds of hours into TF2 by having them get auto-rewarded the achievements... I played the game for maybe 150 or 200 hours before getting bored of it, and when this patch came around, I was looking forward to coming back to the game to try the new weapons out... but I don't want to play a vanilla game I'm already bored of in order to eventually unlock things to make one class slightly different -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Pretty much sums it up for me. These grind achievements really are at odds with the concept that TF2 is supposed to be something you play for maybe 30 minutes at a time (and maybe once or twice a week).
I've got the Blutsaugher (which isn't overpowered btw) and I'm a few achs off the Kritzkrieg, but it'll be simply ages of playing the same game I already got bored with. Instead of me playing the game for a while to unlock achievements gradually, I've resorted to farming (I know, it's shameful, but I don't like the fact there is part of the game I just can't play with due to limited time constraints).
Sooo many other players are doing this. Honestly a few NSers and friends went onto a server because it was friendly fire and it had a voteban option. TF2 has turned us into morons, I tell you! Every time someone joined us who wanted to -you know- <i>actually play the game</i> we votebanned them off. Considering this is a free weekend, I shudder to think what kind of introduction this is to new players. I feel ashamed that we acted that way, but we're between a rock and a hard place knowing that there is part of the game we can't play without farming.
Wake up and smell the roses, Valve: TF2 needs more maps and game modes, not out-of-reach achievements that turn the game into a negative farmfest. Goldrush is the only positive thing to come out of this update.
Oh wow. Oh man, I was about to lay into you there, but then I realised that VIDEOGAMES MADE YOU DO IT, which means that you are absolved of all blame. Man, those video games. Is nothing holy to them?
The point is when you design a game, especially a multiplayer game, you need to consider not only how the game will be played according to your design, but how that design can be interpreted in different ways, especially ways that undermine your goals to produce negative gameplay. Valve have failed to recognise that their <u>casual</u> multiplayer now offers people who <u>non-casually</u> grind more to the game than those the game is aimed at.
They have also failed to see that people are far more likely to want to get these unlocks quickly than slowly. On the whole, the unlocks have not been designed to accomodate only continual play. About 90% are totally open to achievement-farming.
Finally, this achievement-farming is giving a very negative first impression of the game to new players on the free weekend.
It helps greatly though if you are trying to get the "punch 2guys with a heavy during uber" "xplode 5 guys with a soldier during uber" etc. achievements.
For me the kritzkrieg is more like a fun toy. Scout and medic going toe to toe with a heavy and then having a 100% crit chance helps, but so does having 10 seconds where oyu can just beat the heavy silly and all he can do in return is run away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really interested though in what happens when two medics uber the same HWguy when one has a Kritzkrieg. Seems like lots of death.
I thought about using the critzkrieg early in set-up time to place 8 crit-stickies. Wouldn't that be a good investment?
I thought about using the critzkrieg early in set-up time to place 8 crit-stickies. Wouldn't that be a good investment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any half decent team blows away stickies as soon as the gate opens, although I guess you might get one or two random lucky kills after they've been blown about all over the place. I don't think it's worth wasting any uber on though.
I never know whether to be angry at the medic or embarassed for myself.
seriously, medics NEED to play with VC.
If you randomly uber me I am probably going to get jack and squat done (lack of ammo, reloading, not knowing wth I am going for, or even just being caught flat footed).
/I rule Page 8! buhahah
I'd guess(wish) a bat which speeds you up on each successful hit or improved knockback when batting someone. Pistol would be upgraded to slowing people down with each shot. Scattergun could allow you to get a temporary extra mid air jump for each enemy you shoot on while in midair or it acts like a rocket launcher but without the damage, you can shoot at your feet to fly up in the air.
Pyro should get some progress thingy for his flamethrower so he/she can make sum special attack after filling up enough burn damage, like, 5x range or never stop burning less healed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My opinion of the Kritzkrieg did NOT improve yesterday. Soldier/medic pair came in with Kritzkrieg über. Medic übered me with regular über. I murdered them. It may be useful in combination, but it doesn't stand on its own very well at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, kritzkrieg requires other situations then uber but I still feel it's often more useful then uber after getting used to not being godmoded, if someone counter with uber I just shoot at their feet and send them flying with the extra knockback.
a Krit and uber charged heavy is a force to be reckoned with (krit and uber charged pyro would just be awesome fun).
the Kritz is good for taking out SGs that are being camped by an engie as they CAN'T repair faster then you can damage.
However for most situations, the Uber is better.
God, just thinking about that makes me cringe. It's going to happen too.
However for most situations, the Uber is better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crits don't affect damage on sentrys, so unless it's very close or you are a demoman it doesn't work so well against being uber'd.
Even more amusingly, this seems to annoy the exploiters far more than the exploit annoys the rest of us. So you can quite happily spend a few hours of gaming gleefully screwing with the exploiters (I just spent an hour long game doing nothing but this, and actually got quite a few achievements randomly for doing it). It is much fun.
**EDIT**
Just checked the update news, and according to valve, they've fixed the exploit. Well... they ain't, because in the aforementioned game there were 6 medics using it (on the red team, on dustbowl, so they were blocking each exit with 2 ubered medics. Highly annoying).