First, @swift, you said you disagree completely with me, and then basically go on to reiterate everything I said in the post you allegedly disagree completely with. I'm lost.
Second, everyone who's saying TF2 isn't balanced toward competitive play... well, I don't have a point of reference to argue with you there. I wasn't a part of TFC. That game felt to me like a spammy nightmare of people abusing physics left and right to singlehandedly ninja a flag across the map and whatnot. If that was the definition of skill and fun for some people, it wasn't for me. IMO, TF2 goes back to the TF roots of being a wicked fun team game with strategery as well as childlike glee at some of the things you can do. if you want to see who can mimic an aimbot better you might as well skip TF2 and TFC as well and just stick with CS.
I don't think crits are a solid argument against TF2 being a game of skill though. Sure, they're semi-randomized, meaning a 'bad' player can instagib a 'pro'... but good players are rewarded with more frequent crits, and every player has an even shot at getting crits. If anything, the fact that good players are rewarded with more crits magnifies the impact of skill rather than diminishes it, since a good player will do even more damage thanks to crit streaks. Also, good players are generally good at dodging incoming fire, be it crits or regular shots, so most of the time if an alleged pro gets instagibbed with a crit rocket, he's not as pro as you think he is for letting himself get in the line of fire like that.
Also, i've seen some pretty impressive competitive TF2 videos, so apparently there are people who think the game is good enough for league play =P
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1678697:date=May 15 2008, 10:24 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ May 15 2008, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, i've seen some pretty impressive competitive TF2 videos, so apparently there are people who think the game is good enough for league play =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valve has been fielding a competitive play team since the game was released.
<!--quoteo(post=1678693:date=May 16 2008, 06:37 AM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ May 16 2008, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The scout and pyro have very little health and are both close combat classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The pyro has 175 health, which is 87.5% of the soldier's 200 health. That's not very little. The pyro seems flimsy because he has to put himself in harm's way in order to do anything at all, and because he lacks the scout's ability to quickly get OUT of harm's way again. He fares poorly against a medic because the medic runs at a slightly faster speed than the pyro, and can therefore backpedal away while shooting. And it gets worse: The medic can run away in a straight line, but if the pyro tries to run after him in a straight line he gets a face full of needles (which hurts a lot) AND gets slowed a little due to knockback, and if he strafes back and forth to avoid the needles he is no longer running forward at full speed. In both cases the medic's speed advantage is amplified. I'd say that in most cases the scout is at an advantage against a medic due to being hard to hit and being able to do a lot of damage up close. The medic can't escape, and the medic can't prevent the scout from escaping either. However, the scout's low health means that the fight can turn against him very quickly. Just a few good hits and half his health is gone. At short ranges (where most scout vs. medic fights happen), even three or four syringes will drain enough health from the scout to make him vulnerable to a one-hit kill from the bonesaw, and that's not even including crits.
But essentially, my point of view hasn't changed since before the update came out: Medics are not a combat class, but they're capable, and underestimating them can quickly become fatal.
<!--quoteo(post=1678703:date=May 16 2008, 11:12 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 16 2008, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He fares poorly against a medic because the medic runs at a slightly faster speed than the pyro<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, the pyro is actually SLIGHTLY faster then the medic. Try it out, run after a pyro running straight forward and he will outrun you.
I'am nitpicking here but you are still right, the pyro is screwed if he doesn't have the medic in at least the furthest range of his flamethrower while pursuing. If you ever get to a corner you might just aswell give it up, not-instant-hit-projectiles vs each other will always favor the one running away.
<!--quoteo(post=1678704:date=May 16 2008, 11:36 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ May 16 2008, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong, the pyro is actually SLIGHTLY faster then the medic. Try it out, run after a pyro running straight forward and he will outrun you.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. The medic is actually SLIGHTLY faster than the pyro, engineer, sniper and spy (and significantly faster than the demoman, soldier, and heavy). Try it out, run after a pyro running straight forward and you will slowly catch up to him. However, backpedaling incurs a slight speed penalty, which may be the source of the confusion.
<!--quoteo(post=1678690:date=May 16 2008, 05:10 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 16 2008, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't even get 2fort. What's so desirable about it? All I ever see are huge, boring stalemates and sniperfests. I never played TFC back in the day, so I have to guess, but I assume there was some gameplay mechanic in TFC that made the map tolerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Here's why 2Fort is/was popular in TFC:
- Scouts and Medics can conc-jump from balcony to balcony in a matter of milliseconds - Most classes have a standard frag grenade that they could prime and hurl from below to kill or seriously injure a sniper - Some of these classes can also grenade-jump up onto the balcony from below and still have enough health to whip a Sniper or two - Medics and Scouts have concussion grenades which, apart from letting them conc jump, also totally fook up the enemy's view, warping it in horrible arcane ways (Spies have gas grenades that also screw up your view) - Heavies and Demos have grandes that explode and chuck out 4 more grenades that explode (explodey ftw!) - Pyros have molotov cocktails that will set either corner of the balcony alight - Soldiers can rocket jump straight up and totally kick ass
Also the majority of servers had a team Sniper limit for 2Fort (usually 1 or 2).
Basically, even though it was easier to Snipe in TFC, it was also possible for any class to go give the Snipers a piece of their mind. TF2 removed the grenade spam thus removing almost all classes opportunity to deny a camping fookwit his lam-o-kills, but it also curiously kept the level layout almost identical with the exception of the roof over the bridge. In TF2 only the Sniper, Scout, Demo and Soldier can deal with an annoying Sniper. It's similar to the fact that now only a few classes can take on enemy Sentries unless they get an uber. In TFC Engineers had EMP grenades that were perfect for taking out Sentries from round corners.
TFC was probably reasonably well balanced between the classes, but only if you were prepared to get to grips with simultaneously priming a grenade and firing your primary weapon, and learning the jump tricks of the Soldier, Medic and Scout. It was a much faster paced game, but if you were hardcore enough to want to invest time in it, it was great (plus it was fairly unique as a free mod so there weren't many other places you could get a comparable experience -perhaps Tribes was closest, and it came free with HL GOTY ed.)
<!--quoteo(post=1678697:date=May 16 2008, 06:24 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ May 16 2008, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, i've seen some pretty impressive competitive TF2 videos, so apparently there are people who think the game is good enough for league play =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is true, but I've also seen a video where random crits won the game.
People who accept this fact that a partially random element can decide a match will play TF2 competitively, but I'm sure the community would be a lot bigger with either the option to remove it or its removal from the game.
Below is a strng of 4 crits deciding a finals match (poor quality, but if you count the crits and consider this is a 6v6, you'll see how harsh this is). It goes: Soldier-Demo-Heavy-some other guy at the intelligence. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wzv8r4UTF9A"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wzv8r4UTF9A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
P.S. For whoever was complaining that Reptile's TF2 Soldier fragvid was too heavily edited, I believe this vid should silence any claims that he gets lucky (a couple of longer, unedited sections towards the end). <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MUXjele2e1I"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MUXjele2e1I" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1678721:date=May 16 2008, 09:11 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 16 2008, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but I'm sure the community would be a lot bigger with either the option to remove it or its removal from the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a plugin to do this, so if they wanted to they could.
<!--quoteo(post=1678712:date=May 16 2008, 01:54 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 16 2008, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, backpedaling incurs a slight speed penalty, which may be the source of the confusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, <a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Classes#Speed" target="_blank">http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Classes#Speed</a> (utterly refused me to enter til now).
<!--quoteo(post=1678712:date=May 16 2008, 01:54 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 16 2008, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong. The medic is actually SLIGHTLY faster than the pyro, engineer, sniper and spy (and significantly faster than the demoman, soldier, and heavy).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> scout > medic > engineer, pyro, spy, sniper, demo > soldier > heavy Or at any rate demoman is very noticeably faster than soldier.
2fort is extremely not designed at all for TF2, so that's why it sucks almost as bad as CTF Well. Why they added the bridge sniper cover, I do not know. In TFC it might make sense since snipers were so easy to use that the brief respite from a bridge roof would be only that - brief, but in TF2 snipers are already lacking in usefulness, so nerfing them in the map was dumb. As it is, snipers are only welcome on teams when playing goldrush or hydro, and to a rather lesser extent gravelbowl. There's just no good spot to camp in and shoot from, and you have to be able to camp as sniper if you want to do any decent amount of damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1678731:date=May 16 2008, 07:37 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 16 2008, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->scout > medic > engineer, pyro, spy, sniper, demo > soldier > heavy Or at any rate demoman is very noticeably faster than soldier.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He is. He's slower than the other four you grouped him with though.
So, yea, Pyro is confirmed to be next class to get new achivements. Also something about savegames on steam servers and "meet the sniper".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn right! I wonder what new weapons I'll have to strive for.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1679936:date=Jun 1 2008, 10:27 AM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Jun 1 2008, 10:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn right! I wonder what new weapons I'll have to strive for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though I know they definitely won't be coming back, I really want the pyro's rockets. They were the most annoying thing in the game when I used to play sniper in TFC.
But it'll probably be something like a flamer that has a wider arc and does more damage, but shorter range and uses up ammo a lot faster. Or the opposite (long range thin arc, but less damange).
<!--quoteo(post=1679937:date=Jun 1 2008, 01:10 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Jun 1 2008, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even though I know they definitely won't be coming back, I really want the pyro's rockets. They were the most annoying thing in the game when I used to play sniper in TFC.
But it'll probably be something like a flamer that has a wider arc and does more damage, but shorter range and uses up ammo a lot faster. Or the opposite (long range thin arc, but less damange).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im personally hoping for a long range flamethrower, with or without crit, so you just can swipe it over a field from a distance, setting everyone on fire and then disappear without getting in too close to be in danger.
Axe, a FLAMING one.
Shotgun, gasoline can to pour out and set on fire at your own leisure.
<!--quoteo(post=1678731:date=May 16 2008, 05:37 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 16 2008, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2fort is extremely not designed at all for TF2, so that's why it sucks almost as bad as CTF Well. Why they added the bridge sniper cover, I do not know. In TFC it might make sense since snipers were so easy to use that the brief respite from a bridge roof would be only that - brief, but in TF2 snipers are already lacking in usefulness, so nerfing them in the map was dumb. As it is, snipers are only welcome on teams when playing goldrush or hydro, and to a rather lesser extent gravelbowl. There's just no good spot to camp in and shoot from, and you have to be able to camp as sniper if you want to do any decent amount of damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Camp on the bottom floors instead of the top. Doing so will also give you the advantage of being able to shoot someone in the leg, hide around the corner and machete someone to death. In competitive play, when I used to play it, snipers were used to pick off a scout at the beginning, and then sniper was usually traded for a more usueful class. (engineer)
Yeah, being traded for a more useful class pretty much says it all. Camping on the bottom helps you hit, but then you're that much more vulnerable. Map nerfed class.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1679939:date=Jun 1 2008, 06:46 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jun 1 2008, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im personally hoping for a long range flamethrower, with or without crit, so you just can swipe it over a field from a distance, setting everyone on fire and then disappear without getting in too close to be in danger.
Axe, a FLAMING one.
Shotgun, gasoline can to pour out and set on fire at your own leisure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An axe that would set people a light would be pretty good.
The shotgun should be replaced with a fireball launcher, it'd be slow but it would leave the floor burning for a while.
<!--quoteo(post=1679949:date=Jun 1 2008, 01:34 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Jun 1 2008, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, being traded for a more useful class pretty much says it all. Camping on the bottom helps you hit, but then you're that much more vulnerable. Map nerfed class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well from what I remember, snipers have been nerfed many times, not just in maps. Its just that the only class where someone could exhibit real skill in and leave many people to complain. Skill cap is why me and a lot of other people left TF2. A lot more TF2 players only play TF2 solely because there are no other good multiplayer games out. (NS2!)
Excuse me while I laugh my lungs out of my goddamn chest. "My favourite class is the only one that takes any skill." Oh man, if I had a dime for every time I heard that one, I would have many dimes.
<!--quoteo(post=1679981:date=Jun 1 2008, 10:09 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 1 2008, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excuse me while I laugh my lungs out of my goddamn chest. "My favourite class is the only one that takes any skill." Oh man, if I had a dime for every time I heard that one, I would have many dimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, my class is the soldier. I'm actually a terrible sniper, I got outsniped by doze once.
<!--quoteo(post=1679984:date=Jun 1 2008, 11:06 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 1 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who thinks there is a skill cap in TF2 has only plateaued on a personal skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I learned every rocket trick on every map (jumping out of water in 2fort for example), I've learned to hit every class mid-air. I've learned to play with a medic. I've learned to not die at certain times and to die at other times. I've learned a really cool glitch where if I pull it off right, I can instagib a heavy without crits. I beat every xensity soldier on duel_ovh. And then I plateau'd because I ran out of imagination.
Face it, when teams are matched at the upper tier, TF2 is ALL about crits 100%.
I think the problem is what you define as 'skill'. It means many thing to many people. For me skill usually means tactical ability; outwitting your opponent in heated battle. When I was back in university I probably would've been more likely to call 'twitch' skill but I've been playing games for so long now that 'twitch' has long since become normal rather than skill to me =/
A person who hasn't practiced fast aiming might find the sniper a highly skilled class, or those who still value twitch as 'skill' might but for people who just take twitch for granted I don't really consider mastery of such a class a real 'skill' anymore. It's just gaming 101 ability that you pick up along the way from most other FPS games. Much the same applies to the solider really.
I've become quite jaded with sniping in games in general though methinks, the avid 'sniper wolf' in me still loves a game of silent scope but I think that's down to the difference in making a screen point at someone with a mouse and aiming a physical rifle with a scope =3
<b>edit:</b> And yes, I hate random dice rolling in games like crits. Thiings like MMOs infuriate me with their insistence on being so random like that.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1681116:date=Jun 14 2008, 07:06 AM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Jun 14 2008, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A person who hasn't practiced fast aiming might find the sniper a highly skilled class, or those who still value twitch as 'skill' might but for people who just take twitch for granted I don't really consider mastery of such a class a real 'skill' anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could extend that to say that no part of TF2 requires any skill. Dodging rockets? We learned that when we learned to dodge skulks. There have been grenade launchers in past games. Rocket launchers too. Spy is much like cloaking behind marines or using silence. The list goes on.
On a semi-related note, which sensitivity do you all use when playing? I'm not after numbers but "low", "high" or "real low with bench sized mousepad" like.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1681119:date=Jun 14 2008, 07:38 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jun 14 2008, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a semi-related note, which sensitivity do you all use when playing? I'm not after numbers but "low", "high" or "real low with bench sized mousepad" like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> High with a large mousepad. I used to have it set at 11.777 but then I got a new Razer mouse and had to turn it down.
I think I was more lucky when it was 11.777 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
But yeah, I'm a highly sensitive kind of guy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Comments
Second, everyone who's saying TF2 isn't balanced toward competitive play... well, I don't have a point of reference to argue with you there. I wasn't a part of TFC. That game felt to me like a spammy nightmare of people abusing physics left and right to singlehandedly ninja a flag across the map and whatnot. If that was the definition of skill and fun for some people, it wasn't for me. IMO, TF2 goes back to the TF roots of being a wicked fun team game with strategery as well as childlike glee at some of the things you can do. if you want to see who can mimic an aimbot better you might as well skip TF2 and TFC as well and just stick with CS.
I don't think crits are a solid argument against TF2 being a game of skill though. Sure, they're semi-randomized, meaning a 'bad' player can instagib a 'pro'... but good players are rewarded with more frequent crits, and every player has an even shot at getting crits. If anything, the fact that good players are rewarded with more crits magnifies the impact of skill rather than diminishes it, since a good player will do even more damage thanks to crit streaks. Also, good players are generally good at dodging incoming fire, be it crits or regular shots, so most of the time if an alleged pro gets instagibbed with a crit rocket, he's not as pro as you think he is for letting himself get in the line of fire like that.
Also, i've seen some pretty impressive competitive TF2 videos, so apparently there are people who think the game is good enough for league play =P
Valve has been fielding a competitive play team since the game was released.
The pyro has 175 health, which is 87.5% of the soldier's 200 health. That's not very little. The pyro seems flimsy because he has to put himself in harm's way in order to do anything at all, and because he lacks the scout's ability to quickly get OUT of harm's way again.
He fares poorly against a medic because the medic runs at a slightly faster speed than the pyro, and can therefore backpedal away while shooting. And it gets worse: The medic can run away in a straight line, but if the pyro tries to run after him in a straight line he gets a face full of needles (which hurts a lot) AND gets slowed a little due to knockback, and if he strafes back and forth to avoid the needles he is no longer running forward at full speed. In both cases the medic's speed advantage is amplified.
I'd say that in most cases the scout is at an advantage against a medic due to being hard to hit and being able to do a lot of damage up close. The medic can't escape, and the medic can't prevent the scout from escaping either. However, the scout's low health means that the fight can turn against him very quickly. Just a few good hits and half his health is gone. At short ranges (where most scout vs. medic fights happen), even three or four syringes will drain enough health from the scout to make him vulnerable to a one-hit kill from the bonesaw, and that's not even including crits.
But essentially, my point of view hasn't changed since before the update came out: Medics are not a combat class, but they're capable, and underestimating them can quickly become fatal.
Wrong, the pyro is actually SLIGHTLY faster then the medic. Try it out, run after a pyro running straight forward and he will outrun you.
I'am nitpicking here but you are still right, the pyro is screwed if he doesn't have the medic in at least the furthest range of his flamethrower while pursuing. If you ever get to a corner you might just aswell give it up, not-instant-hit-projectiles vs each other will always favor the one running away.
Wrong. The medic is actually SLIGHTLY faster than the pyro, engineer, sniper and spy (and significantly faster than the demoman, soldier, and heavy). Try it out, run after a pyro running straight forward and you will slowly catch up to him. However, backpedaling incurs a slight speed penalty, which may be the source of the confusion.
- Scouts and Medics can conc-jump from balcony to balcony in a matter of milliseconds
- Most classes have a standard frag grenade that they could prime and hurl from below to kill or seriously injure a sniper
- Some of these classes can also grenade-jump up onto the balcony from below and still have enough health to whip a Sniper or two
- Medics and Scouts have concussion grenades which, apart from letting them conc jump, also totally fook up the enemy's view, warping it in horrible arcane ways (Spies have gas grenades that also screw up your view)
- Heavies and Demos have grandes that explode and chuck out 4 more grenades that explode (explodey ftw!)
- Pyros have molotov cocktails that will set either corner of the balcony alight
- Soldiers can rocket jump straight up and totally kick ass
Also the majority of servers had a team Sniper limit for 2Fort (usually 1 or 2).
Basically, even though it was easier to Snipe in TFC, it was also possible for any class to go give the Snipers a piece of their mind. TF2 removed the grenade spam thus removing almost all classes opportunity to deny a camping fookwit his lam-o-kills, but it also curiously kept the level layout almost identical with the exception of the roof over the bridge. In TF2 only the Sniper, Scout, Demo and Soldier can deal with an annoying Sniper. It's similar to the fact that now only a few classes can take on enemy Sentries unless they get an uber. In TFC Engineers had EMP grenades that were perfect for taking out Sentries from round corners.
TFC was probably reasonably well balanced between the classes, but only if you were prepared to get to grips with simultaneously priming a grenade and firing your primary weapon, and learning the jump tricks of the Soldier, Medic and Scout. It was a much faster paced game, but if you were hardcore enough to want to invest time in it, it was great (plus it was fairly unique as a free mod so there weren't many other places you could get a comparable experience -perhaps Tribes was closest, and it came free with HL GOTY ed.)
People who accept this fact that a partially random element can decide a match will play TF2 competitively, but I'm sure the community would be a lot bigger with either the option to remove it or its removal from the game.
Below is a strng of 4 crits deciding a finals match (poor quality, but if you count the crits and consider this is a 6v6, you'll see how harsh this is). It goes: Soldier-Demo-Heavy-some other guy at the intelligence.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wzv8r4UTF9A"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wzv8r4UTF9A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
P.S. For whoever was complaining that Reptile's TF2 Soldier fragvid was too heavily edited, I believe this vid should silence any claims that he gets lucky (a couple of longer, unedited sections towards the end).
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There is a plugin to do this, so if they wanted to they could.
Yes, <a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Classes#Speed" target="_blank">http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Classes#Speed</a> (utterly refused me to enter til now).
I shall now proceed to lurk quietly.
scout > medic > engineer, pyro, spy, sniper, demo > soldier > heavy
Or at any rate demoman is very noticeably faster than soldier.
2fort is extremely not designed at all for TF2, so that's why it sucks almost as bad as CTF Well. Why they added the bridge sniper cover, I do not know.
In TFC it might make sense since snipers were so easy to use that the brief respite from a bridge roof would be only that - brief, but in TF2 snipers are already lacking in usefulness, so nerfing them in the map was dumb. As it is, snipers are only welcome on teams when playing goldrush or hydro, and to a rather lesser extent gravelbowl.
There's just no good spot to camp in and shoot from, and you have to be able to camp as sniper if you want to do any decent amount of damage.
So, yea, Pyro is confirmed to be next class to get new achivements. Also something about savegames on steam servers and "meet the sniper".
Or at any rate demoman is very noticeably faster than soldier.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is. He's slower than the other four you grouped him with though.
So, yea, Pyro is confirmed to be next class to get new achivements. Also something about savegames on steam servers and "meet the sniper".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn right! I wonder what new weapons I'll have to strive for.
Even though I know they definitely won't be coming back, I really want the pyro's rockets. They were the most annoying thing in the game when I used to play sniper in TFC.
But it'll probably be something like a flamer that has a wider arc and does more damage, but shorter range and uses up ammo a lot faster. Or the opposite (long range thin arc, but less damange).
But it'll probably be something like a flamer that has a wider arc and does more damage, but shorter range and uses up ammo a lot faster. Or the opposite (long range thin arc, but less damange).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im personally hoping for a long range flamethrower, with or without crit, so you just can swipe it over a field from a distance, setting everyone on fire and then disappear without getting in too close to be in danger.
Axe, a FLAMING one.
Shotgun, gasoline can to pour out and set on fire at your own leisure.
In TFC it might make sense since snipers were so easy to use that the brief respite from a bridge roof would be only that - brief, but in TF2 snipers are already lacking in usefulness, so nerfing them in the map was dumb. As it is, snipers are only welcome on teams when playing goldrush or hydro, and to a rather lesser extent gravelbowl.
There's just no good spot to camp in and shoot from, and you have to be able to camp as sniper if you want to do any decent amount of damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camp on the bottom floors instead of the top. Doing so will also give you the advantage of being able to shoot someone in the leg, hide around the corner and machete someone to death. In competitive play, when I used to play it, snipers were used to pick off a scout at the beginning, and then sniper was usually traded for a more usueful class. (engineer)
Camping on the bottom helps you hit, but then you're that much more vulnerable. Map nerfed class.
He does have 3 "grenades" strapped to his bandolier. Perhaps a next-patch achievement weapon, napalm nades FTW
Axe, a FLAMING one.
Shotgun, gasoline can to pour out and set on fire at your own leisure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An axe that would set people a light would be pretty good.
The shotgun should be replaced with a fireball launcher, it'd be slow but it would leave the floor burning for a while.
Camping on the bottom helps you hit, but then you're that much more vulnerable. Map nerfed class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well from what I remember, snipers have been nerfed many times, not just in maps. Its just that the only class where someone could exhibit real skill in and leave many people to complain. Skill cap is why me and a lot of other people left TF2. A lot more TF2 players only play TF2 solely because there are no other good multiplayer games out. (NS2!)
Actually, my class is the soldier. I'm actually a terrible sniper, I got outsniped by doze once.
<!--quoteo(post=1679984:date=Jun 1 2008, 11:06 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 1 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who thinks there is a skill cap in TF2 has only plateaued on a personal skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I learned every rocket trick on every map (jumping out of water in 2fort for example), I've learned to hit every class mid-air. I've learned to play with a medic. I've learned to not die at certain times and to die at other times. I've learned a really cool glitch where if I pull it off right, I can instagib a heavy without crits. I beat every xensity soldier on duel_ovh. And then I plateau'd because I ran out of imagination.
Face it, when teams are matched at the upper tier, TF2 is ALL about crits 100%.
When I was back in university I probably would've been more likely to call 'twitch' skill but I've been playing games for so long now that 'twitch' has long since become normal rather than skill to me =/
A person who hasn't practiced fast aiming might find the sniper a highly skilled class, or those who still value twitch as 'skill' might but for people who just take twitch for granted I don't really consider mastery of such a class a real 'skill' anymore. It's just gaming 101 ability that you pick up along the way from most other FPS games. Much the same applies to the solider really.
I've become quite jaded with sniping in games in general though methinks, the avid 'sniper wolf' in me still loves a game of silent scope but I think that's down to the difference in making a screen point at someone with a mouse and aiming a physical rifle with a scope =3
<b>edit:</b> And yes, I hate random dice rolling in games like crits. Thiings like MMOs infuriate me with their insistence on being so random like that.
You could extend that to say that no part of TF2 requires any skill. Dodging rockets? We learned that when we learned to dodge skulks. There have been grenade launchers in past games. Rocket launchers too. Spy is much like cloaking behind marines or using silence. The list goes on.
High with a large mousepad. I used to have it set at 11.777 but then I got a new Razer mouse and had to turn it down.
I think I was more lucky when it was 11.777 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
But yeah, I'm a highly sensitive kind of guy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />