Pulling back the veil - Natural Selection 2

1356711

Comments

  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    @trixX

    I was the 1st one mentioning that something is wrong with 305.
    I mentioned buffs to help new players without knowing that these buffs are the reason for the last inbalanced games.

    The problem with the last 2 hidden changes is.
    It doesnt help new players playing skulk that much but it helps marines.
    New skulks still running on the floor against multiple rines and if they are in bite range, they are running around bitespamming all day long with 20% bite accuracy.
    But hitting the enemy better from the distance is complete different.

    So helping new players on side but they still cant get into the game on the other side is not what helping in playerretention.
    And the remaining ex comp players can shred much more easier trough the skulks btw. Also very helpfull.

    A typical round at the moment is this:
    Noone wants to play aliens.
    From my point of view this hidden change is damaging NS2 more that it helps new players cause its just frustrating to play aliens.
    "You know NS2?" --- "You mean the game where one side is winning all the time?"

    Revert the hitbox change but let the bite cone in the game.

    Maybe these changes work on rookie only servers, but its a bit dumb to balance a game around people who left this "balanced" state after 25hrs.
    image
    Vetinari
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    @dePARA yes, I think we totally agree on that. I also just wanted to point out that balancing cant help newbies learn the alien game. Maybe I misunderstood your post
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 728 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    This.... just..... yeah....

    This new "paid dev team" is just..... there are no words to describe. (none I could use here anyway)

    For years (ever since I started playing) players have been begging for smaller Skulks... and this new dev team puts in a ninja change to effectively make skulks bigger

    Even worse is that it seems this change was made in an effort to balance the P-res change (another god-awful balance decision)

    I was wondering why I suddenly couldn't get kills as skulk anymore, why the dramatic shift in early game Marine wins, why the game seemed no fun at all to play anymore... Now I know...

    I also now know why the # of populated servers has plummeted since 305 (especially in the mornings)




    On a side note: This has also highlighted quite well the problem of elitism in this community. Just look at how many threads/posts have been made since 305 complaining that Alien players are bad, need to "git gud", are stupid, etc... You can literally have an Alien team working together with 100% perfect coordination, going in together, biting res, etc... yet losing (because the Marine team has better players) and still have elitist ***hole players on Alien blaming the team for being "stupid noobs"

    Honestly everyone who has posted since 305 complaining about "stupid alien players" should be ashamed.
    .trixX.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    *feels ashamed*
    Especially because I screamed off some heads yesterday for not being able to hold nano against 2 rines :D
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    clowning wrote: »
    So, let me get this straight - you've now not only alienated your most loyal customers & playerbase by ignoring feedback, implementing changes that nobody asks for and then standing by your decisions blindly due to some warped notion that you can't be wrong; you've now reached the conclusion that deliberately deceiving your playerbase because they don't agree with you is the way forward.

    Incredible. I honestly wonder why many other organisations don't follow this novel strategy.

    Well, you gotta give them that this community forms opinions on balance changes very quickly; plus, the placebo effect is real: One time, a LoL champion was nerfed, but due to a bug, the nerf didn't go live. Players still played worse with this champion. So yes, if you want raw, unbiased data, you need a control group.

    Still doesn't mean I agree with all of this... UWE is past the point where they can afford deliberate miscommunication.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    .trixX.
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 192 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    This.... just..... yeah....

    This new "paid dev team" is just..... there are no words to describe. (none I could use here anyway)

    For years (ever since I started playing) players have been begging for smaller Skulks... and this new dev team puts in a ninja change to effectively make skulks bigger

    Even worse is that it seems this change was made in an effort to balance the P-res change (another god-awful balance decision)

    I was wondering why I suddenly couldn't get kills as skulk anymore, why the dramatic shift in early game Marine wins, why the game seemed no fun at all to play anymore... Now I know...

    I also now know why the # of populated servers has plummeted since 305 (especially in the mornings)




    On a side note: This has also highlighted quite well the problem of elitism in this community. Just look at how many threads/posts have been made since 305 complaining that Alien players are bad, need to "git gud", are stupid, etc... You can literally have an Alien team working together with 100% perfect coordination, going in together, biting res, etc... yet losing (because the Marine team has better players) and still have elitist ***hole players on Alien blaming the team for being "stupid noobs"

    Honestly everyone who has posted since 305 complaining about "stupid alien players" should be ashamed.


    I think the truth lies in the middle mofo. There are definitely new players who do not know how to play alien correctly.
    But i agree with you that larger hitboxed make strong marines a lot stronger now.
    The dramatic increase of marine wins is a mix of both aspects imo.
    wya3p5tg.png
    Wobmigalski
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    @MoFo1

    But most of the alien players are dumb.
    Sorry to say this imple truth.

    So instead of "Hmm, i died to these guys with shotguns 5 times now, maybe i should try something different", they trying it again.

    The hidden hitbox change was only the straw that breaks the camel’s back.


    image
    Blrg
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 192 Advanced user
    dePARA wrote: »
    @trixX


    A typical round at the moment is this:
    Noone wants to play aliens.

    Funny: I want to play alines more than before. Played 75% of the games since 305 as alien. Because i did not want to accept that i lose so much engagements as alien now. I wanted to get back to my old level so i practiced more alien play. Even when i lost a lot of games and lost over 300 hive...... it was worth it. my alien play did become a lot better.
    wya3p5tg.png
    .trixX.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    Rammler wrote: »
    dePARA wrote: »
    @trixX


    A typical round at the moment is this:
    Noone wants to play aliens.

    Funny: I want to play alines more than before. Played 75% of the games since 305 as alien. Because i did not want to accept that i lose so much engagements as alien now. I wanted to get back to my old level so i practiced more alien play. Even when i lost a lot of games and lost over 300 hive...... it was worth it. my alien play did become a lot better.

    That's the reason for the dip in the graph I guess. Necessity :D
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 728 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    dePARA wrote: »
    @MoFo1

    But most of the alien players are dumb.
    Sorry to say this imple truth.

    So instead of "Hmm, i died to these guys with shotguns 5 times now, maybe i should try something different", they trying it again.

    The hidden hitbox change was only the straw that breaks the camel’s back.


    Sorry DePara but there aren't as many "dumb" alien players as you make it out to be... At least no more than there have always been.

    I was in a game with you the other day where you were ranting about "everyone" on the Alien team running in straight lines and dying over and over and over again... Except it was only ONE guy on the entire team doing that.
    .trixX.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Don't forget that this game is a RTS first and a FPS second. Scoring a few more hits with your bullets wont teach people how to do resbiting/harrasment or how to cover lanes and the importance of pressuring alien RTs early game which, I hope you realize most people under 200 hours and sometimes more still have NO IDEA because it's NEVER EXPLAINED.
    The gameplay of each round is still very boring people running around randomly into their death ignoring com calls, sometimes bad coms ignoring med requests and building sentry everywhere.

    Bet on what makes ns2 unique for retention and improve the quality of every rounds, not how every little person feels gratificated in every single instant, if people want this they will play CoDollars anyway.
    Vetinari.trixX.Handschuh
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    Why do i have this ONE guy multiplied 6 in every round?
    With the hitbox change its much harder for the possible carry players on alienside. Especial in the early game.

    I dont like the hitbox change, but it had small sideeffect.
    It revealed the total lack of gamesense of 80% of the playerbase on alienside.

    The positive aspect of this could be to adress the issues most have with tutorials maybe (well, im not sure about this)
    - No Running on the floor
    - Parasite and retreat
    - Use your speed to prepare ambushes
    - Make calls (How many marines in what room with what weapon)
    - Bite backres and retreat if a marine is coming or ambush
    - Distract marines till more skulks coming
    - Try to engage marines as a pack

    These and more are things 80% of the skulks are not doing.
    Maybe before the change the carryfade slaughtered all rines so this was not so obvious, in most games right now aliens didnt reach the point where they got fades.
    The ammount of carryfades and lerks is really low btw, most players just saving for onos or gorging all the time.
    So they playing must of the time as skulk but didnt understand the basics from above.

    And runnning in an long corridor on the floor against multiple enemys with ranged weapons is dumb. Point.

    image
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    Mephilles wrote: »
    Might just be me who sucks at skulk dodging but I have the feeling the skulks need a little something to compensate here.
    Yeah, we're keeping an eye on this.
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Obraxis wrote: »
    Great update guys. Who wants exact hitboxes anyway?

    We still have more accurate hitboxes than CS:GO. It's industry standard to have larger hitboxes than the player models in all modern games, from Quake onwards. NS2 has always been exceptionally tight on it's hitboxes, which has helped make it very hardcore and 'git good'. Even with the slightly enlarged hitboxes, we're still significantly smaller than modern shooters.

    The thing is, though, that aliens kinda needed those hitboxes to survive.

    No worries. Look at the awesome dip (that was already dipping) once alien melee cone size was increased! Don't mind that small spike up at the end either. That's just small sample size. I'm sure they have more changes on hand to achieve that 50% win/loss that represents good balanced gameplay too! Forget the part about getting killed, getting kills is fun!
    Update with another day of data:
    koLZ02l.png
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
    I have way too many names.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation Posts: 780 Fully active user
    Reading the replies in this and the poll topic about these changes, I can't really blame the PDT for "ignoring you".

    Still not playing the game, but interested to see what changes are in the future.
    remiGORGEousStardog
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Yeah I agree with what dePara wrote about how these changes have exposed skulk play in pub servers more than ever. Before, it didn't matter as much as marines had a hard enough time winning in the mid game that aliens were fine. Now you are seeing with health bars and bigger hitboxes, skulk play is really important and it's really difficult for people to know what to do. I hope this is addressed in tutorials or tips while people are playing.

    How to get better as skulk: (general concepts that might help people, but are not true in all situations):
    -Start a fight with a marine from up high, behind an object, and/or make the marine turn as much as possible.
    -Once you get to a marine (parasite on the way in if necessary) - stay on the ground for the first couple bites and then you can add in a jump if you want to throw the marine off...but the first couple bites are really important.
    -If you jump, you are easier to track and you can't change direction as fast - it's a double negative (which isn't a positive in this case) next to a marine.
    -If you stay on the ground for at least the first couple bites and strafe - you can get quick, double bites in which is how you get kills as a skulk.
    -Try to predict the marine strafe, don't trail behind.
    Post edited by Deck_ on
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    Mephilles wrote: »
    Might just be me who sucks at skulk dodging but I have the feeling the skulks need a little something to compensate here.
    Yeah, we're keeping an eye on this.
    Omg what?

    Just make the hitboxes Match the models again. Really, it is so easy.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    There might be a positive side effect though, if people become better at alien as a consequence of being easier to hit.
    Time will tell I guess, if the winrate stabilize itself in a few days
    remi
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 622 Advanced user
    Wob wrote: »

    The alien cone size change reversed the direction and you need a larger sample size that doesn't include statistics from when it was only the hitbox change.

    That said, I really dislike the direction the game is going. I understand that UWE is a business and has to cater to a larger audience than represented here, but presenting the year on year increase when the game had no updates for months the previous year as evidence of a successful strategy? I sure hope there are other statistics that they aren't sharing that paint a brighter picture.
    sen
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 563 Advanced user
    I dont know anymore, i just... what?

    NS2 has never been a "Easy" game, and thats what i love about it, it takes time to learn, time to practice, with the age old saying, the more time you invest the better you will become,

    Right now with some of these changes, by all means keeping a hold of new players is great, but they will still be wrecked by other players that have put the time and effort into the game, that will never change, ever.

    New players will still play this game, become god like on rookie only servers, get past rookie status, and take there god like status to a server, and just get wrecked. as everything they have most likly been doing is wrong, wrong wrong. and just stop playing. This is something that should be addressed, not ninja updates that "Breaking" Balance and making games so unfair to play.

    I would like to know the thought process that is put into these changes? Why? we can clearly see the outcome.
    1275937249093s.jpg

    ENSL.org Ns2 League Ref/Caster -- Natural Selection 2 Playtester -- How to kill a fade East's One Man Wrecking Band My Twitch.tv Channel
    .trixX.The_Welsh_Wizardmigalskicoolitic
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    So, what's next? Critical hits?
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    Ots wrote: »
    Reading the replies in this and the poll topic about these changes, I can't really blame the PDT for "ignoring you".

    Still not playing the game, but interested to see what changes are in the future.

    I'm sure your opinion is superior to people who actually play the game on a regular basis.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    The_Welsh_WizardmigalskicooliticAlite
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Neoken wrote: »
    So, what's next? Critical hits?

    Shhhht, you never know if devs get the sarcasm.
    coolitic2cough
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    If someone can explain the reason why new players always running around in huge as possible lemmingpacks as marine but always alone as alien has the formular for good balance in NS2.
    image
    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    Because they have an alienated mentality! Get it? ALIENated!
    I'll show myself out
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    remi
Sign In or Register to comment.