Pulling back the veil - Natural Selection 2

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  • TyrwingTyrwing Sweden Join Date: 2015-11-23 Member: 209435Members Posts: 41 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    just saying what would probably help rookies to land skulk bites is like doubling the "firerate" of bites but only doing half damage per bite. Rookies tend to hold down the bite button when fighting and that way they completely miss the right timing. A faster bite rate could help with that...

    Even though personally I don't think I would like that change^^

    A rookie can't even hit the broad side of a barn. It's not about timing, they are missing the target by several feet most of the time never even being close to actually hit. Since TTO has its speccslots before you can join sometimes, I've seen plenty of rookie skulks bouncing around with m1 held down.
    meatmachine
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,465 Advanced user
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    Mephilles wrote: »
    just saying what would probably help rookies to land skulk bites is like doubling the "firerate" of bites but only doing half damage per bite. Rookies tend to hold down the bite button when fighting and that way they completely miss the right timing. A faster bite rate could help with that...

    Even though personally I don't think I would like that change^^

    That would have impact everything, structures would need their values re-adjusted which in turn affects other alien abilities let alone how much faster it would be to kill marines.

    Just git gud meph :smiley:

    Mephilles wrote: »
    just saying what would probably help rookies to land skulk bites is like doubling the "firerate" of bites but only doing half damage per bite. Rookies tend to hold down the bite button when fighting and that way they completely miss the right timing. A faster bite rate could help with that...

    Even though personally I don't think I would like that change^^

    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    I don't understand you guys.

    For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!

    How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!

    What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.

    The complaint has always been how top and bottom players play on the same servers. I don't know where you're getting your 'everyone' from, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to fix this by making the game easier and making skill matter less.
    .trixX.coolitic2cough
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Therius wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I don't understand you guys.

    For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!

    How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!

    What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.

    The complaint has always been how top and bottom players play on the same servers. I don't know where you're getting your 'everyone' from, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to fix this by making the game easier and making skill matter less.

    Other games with server browsers have the whole range of skills on every server, yet don't feel like every game is a one sided stomp. Ns2 is uniquely punishing and it doesn't have to be.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    Other games with server browsers have the whole range of skills on every server, yet don't feel like every game is a one sided stomp. Ns2 is uniquely punishing and it doesn't have to be.

    This is subjective, obviously I cant play everywhere at one all the time, but before 305 one sided stomps were quite rare when we payed attention to separate good players equally. And that applies to every game... NS might be more susceptible to that as @Aeglos stated, but hey, if you want to get rid of that, remote the RTS element. (DON'T!)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    The change helps middle-skilled and high-skilled players the most, in case that wasn't obvious. The only reasons it wouldn't help high-skill players would be if they had near 100% accuracy to begin with, but we all know that's far from true.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    How would you feel about this change if they looked at the average accuracy before and after the change, then buffed lifeform health to make the average time to kill identical? (You'd want to look at the numbers multiplicatively, so that going from 10%->15% enters the average in the same way as going from 20->30%) Overall, engagements would play out the same way as before, except that players who aim worse would hit more often, and the game would feel more satisfying. Would this address your concerns? If the change was all about "feel" and didn't affect the outcomes of encounters much, would you like it more?
    IronHorse
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    Why waste the effort of rebalancing the entire game to accomodate a meaningless change.
    2coughcooliticMe9a
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    How would you feel about this change if they looked at the average accuracy before and after the change, then buffed lifeform health to make the average time to kill identical? (You'd want to look at the numbers multiplicatively, so that going from 10%->15% enters the average in the same way as going from 20->30%) Overall, engagements would play out the same way as before, except that players who aim worse would hit more often, and the game would feel more satisfying. Would this address your concerns? If the change was all about "feel" and didn't affect the outcomes of encounters much, would you like it more?

    How would that make the problem any better that the hitbox is larger than the model? And the increasing in HP can have way more impact than you think.
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 772 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    The change helps middle-skilled and high-skilled players the most, in case that wasn't obvious. The only reasons it wouldn't help high-skill players would be if they had near 100% accuracy to begin with, but we all know that's far from true.

    ye makes sense.
    20% bigger hitboxes gives a guy with 10% acc -> 12% acc and a guy with 20% acc -> 24% acc.
    but the 10% -> 12% guy did get more usefull / less hopeless.
    grrrr im beast
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Neoken wrote: »
    Why waste the effort of rebalancing the entire game to accomodate a meaningless change.
    Eh? His point was right there. Maybe you could address that instead of simply calling it meaningless?
    moultano wrote: »
    Overall, engagements would play out the same way as before, except that players who aim worse would hit more often, and the game would feel more satisfying.

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Let me ask a general question:

    Assuming both sides are equal (both teams as well as Tres / pres symbolically) - does anyone feel like aliens are at a disadvantage mid to late game with the current build?
    Or is it just the early game?
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,465 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Let me ask a general question:

    Assuming both sides are equal (both teams as well as Tres / pres symbolically) - does anyone feel like aliens are at a disadvantage mid to late game with the current build?
    Or is it just the early game?

    Mostly early game, because the change hit skulks the hardest. Somewhat midgame since you need to be even more careful with your lifeforms now. Late game aliens still overrun everything. And no, I don't mean aliens on three hives. I mean aliens on two hives and 6 biomass and 3 - 4 extractors.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Let me ask a general question[...]

    Its hard to judge that now, because of the huge early game disadvantage the marines have a larger tech advantage late game then before.
    That reduces Onos/Fade efficiency massively in mid/late game, because the marines usually already have jets and W3|A3 shotguns and exos.

    But as your question specifically asked to assume equal resflow for both teams I`d say aliens are at an advantage.
    Just because aliens can get onos faster then the marines can get W3 and jets in that specific situation.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    You gotta understand basic principle of balancing before starting to mess with core gameplay stuff like this.

    If you nerf something, it's because it's OP
    If you nerf something without it being OP it means you gotta give something back.
    simple. maths.

    In this case: give bigger hitbox to skulks (-) >>>>> give more hp to skulks (+)


    It's beyond me how those devs can't understand that, certainly not a good sign for the future of this game
    barnieHandschuhIronHorseYojimbo
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    I am not against the hitbox change i would assume it makes the marine gameplay more satisfying, easier and glosses over the bad hitreg which is a good thing.

    But UWE chose to balance it out by making bites easier to land.
    That logic is seriously flawed.
    The hitbox change makes it very unlikely to get close enough to a marine for the bitecone change to matter.
    Raising skulk health would have been the better choice here.
    Handschuh
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Lol, they think giving more accuracy to marines will even with giving more accuracy to aliens, guess what it's an asymetric game, you can't.
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    My main question here is:
    does UWE recognize that there is an problem or not.
    You think your statistics are all you need to know?
    For the love of god take an hour out of you life launch YOUR game and spectate a few pub games.

    DC_Darklings descriptions in the other thread are accurate.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Calm down, of course they're going to do something about the early game issues.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    The question is whether it will be a good one.. and if they take this up fast before even more players leave.. like im currently not playing this week since it's boring
    Daveodethbarnie
  • G_of_the_JG_of_the_J Join Date: 2013-08-12 Member: 186764Members Posts: 69 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    ...


    Here's a video demonstrating that exact scenario, where the shoulder, back and head area of the skulk model were not covered by the hitbox:
    And here's a pic of what I mean:
    bBgtZUf.jpg
    Great example of ns2 bad hitreg(or something like dat). You hit, you see blood, but you dont damage the skulk. This have nothing to do with hitboxes. Next time you just shot above skulk, see blood, no hit.

    If you see blood, why not hit/damage? Why is it hit but no hit? Cant understand what this have to do with hitboxes? If you miss, you should shoot bullet to a wall, not seeing blood splatter.
    Where it all began...? Gloom
    Vetinari2cough
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Neoken wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I don't understand you guys.

    For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!

    How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!

    What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.

    I know you mean well, but if you really think making hitboxes larger is going to have any positive effect regarding the skill gap, you're simply delusional. If anything, it'll make experienced players stomp rookies even harder. Just like the HP bar, this change completely misses the goal it was meant to achieve, while dumbing down the game in the progress.

    The only significant effects changes like these have is that it'll push away even more veteran players. But perhaps that's the goal after all.

    Do we at least agree that reducing the skill gap is a good objective?
    barnieIronHorseNeoken
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    They didnt reduce the skill gap, they just made good players even more godlike
    Nordiccoolitic
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    They didnt reduce the skill gap, they just made good players even more godlike

    They did reduce the skillgap for marines with this change.
    With the side effect you mentioned.
    moultano wrote: »
    Do we at least agree that reducing the skill gap is a good objective?

    yes
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    edited July 2016
    edit: Nevermind, idk why I even bother since apparently everybody is an expert who has surely tested their own claims before making them, right? I'm just wasting my time saying anything.
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
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