Pulling back the veil - Natural Selection 2

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  • HobbesonHobbeson New York Join Date: 2015-12-04 Member: 209723Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    I also want to reiterate what others have been saying: it feels like aliens are getting stomped too easily in the early game. There are just not enough experienced skulks on most servers these days. *Maybe* they'll wise up and start ambushing, but I doubt it.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Hobbeson wrote: »
    In short, I'm worried about a trend of removing "good" sources of frustration from the game - frustration caused by lack of skill, which could eventually be overcome by practice and thought.

    The thing is, devs do not want that players need to learn first to be able to keep up with veterans. In their holy vision of NS2 the skill floor and ceiling are on the ground, so everyone got the exact same skill and nobody is frustrated.
  • Vert^Vert^ Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181227Members Posts: 202 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Great... New changes, but still only 200 - 350 people playing on avg.
    Currently creating the custom map, ns2_prison. Drop by the forum thread to leave feedback, thank you! #Lastest build update: 28/01-2018

    SWS DM map: ns2_sws_cube - forum thread.
    .trixX.Alite
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    After having played with these changes a little, it feels like all they achieved was making the alien power curve more extreme. Skulks are even easier to kill early game now, but if aliens can drag it out, they still steam roll everything. (Onos boneshield anyone?)

    I feel like this isn't ideal.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    jrgnScout255coolitic
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members Posts: 1,595 Advanced user
    Kudos dev team for having the guts to make obviously controversial changes. I'm looking forward to see how these flesh out and are tweaked in the coming weeks. We will only know if these changes are positive by testing them in the real world, especially when the new player wildcard is thrown in.
    moultanonavazka
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 142 Advanced user
    So basically the games turns into:marines early win/aliens draws the game out to get onos with boneshield. Maybe is the idea that "unbalance" stuff to is the goal. A true asymmetrical game, like in old mod day of defeat on some maps. When is 2nd beta ending? Or will this go on forever? Is evolution never stopping? Where is David Attenborough? So many questions! Only survival of the fittest will tell...
    .trixX.2cough
  • FarewelltoarmsFarewelltoarms gainesville fl Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183603Members Posts: 66 Fully active user
    Vert^ wrote: »
    Great... New changes, but still only 200 - 350 people playing on avg.

    It makes you wonder if all the recent development time spent on this game has been a waste. All the new development activity for this game started in December 2015, but if we look at the player retention from July 2015 to July 2016, the average concurrent playerbase only increased by 15 players... FIFTEEN!

    Most of the new changes since December have sparked so much controversy and debate. The healthbars, the lighting changes, changing and adding abilities, the post-round feedback system, hidden servers, and now the hitbox changes. All this work by the developers and all the rage by the posters amounted to a difference of fifteen players.

    What's been the point? Now if UWE is planning on making this game free-to-play in the future like Evolve, well, then it all makes sense.
    2cough
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    jrgn wrote: »
    So basically the games turns into:marines early win/aliens draws the game out to get onos with boneshield. Maybe is the idea that "unbalance" stuff to is the goal. A true asymmetrical game, like in old mod day of defeat on some maps. When is 2nd beta ending? Or will this go on forever? Is evolution never stopping? Where is David Attenborough? So many questions! Only survival of the fittest will tell...

    Better make NS3 Early Access and start experimenting there with better engine and some form of minimum marketing, maybe with free2play in mind from the beginning but with thought out changes and long term devoloping instead of the shitty shortterm gameplay dumbing down we got now.
    .trixX.jrgn
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    Vert^ wrote: »
    Great... New changes, but still only 200 - 350 people playing on avg.

    It makes you wonder if all the recent development time spent on this game has been a waste. All the new development activity for this game started in December 2015, but if we look at the player retention from July 2015 to July 2016, the average concurrent playerbase only increased by 15 players... FIFTEEN!

    Most of the new changes since December have sparked so much controversy and debate. The healthbars, the lighting changes, changing and adding abilities, the post-round feedback system, hidden servers, and now the hitbox changes. All this work by the developers and all the rage by the posters amounted to a difference of fifteen players.

    What's been the point? Now if UWE is planning on making this game free-to-play in the future like Evolve, well, then it all makes sense.

    I'm not saying anything about the quality of those changes, but I would like to note that of course player retention does not bring players back. Advertisment does. Retention keeps them here. I guess their plan is to bring the game into a good state, then start advertising it again. I hope.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • ZeframZefram Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Posts: 283 mod
    edited July 2016
    883gl1pd5v10.gif
    ReconDK wrote: »
    migalski wrote: »

    Welcome to what the rest of the comp scene figured out years ago when we made a comp mod

    Actually I wasn't aware that you were involved in making the comp mod, sorry for my ignorance.

    He wasn't.

    Post edited by IronHorse on
    twitch.tv/Zefram0911
    "I'm not ticklish. I'm also immune to pain and fear" - cory s.

    Uninstalled December 2015
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    edited July 2016
    To all those saying the skill ceiling has been lowered:

    No... it hasn't. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion..
    The skill floor has been lowered, however.

    Lowering the skill floor does not mean the ceiling as been decreased. It means there's less of a canyon wide gap between the two.
    (and technically, in this case, good players will get better accuracy too.. so one could argue the shift is proportional, slightly)

    "But if it's easier to shoot things then surely that means the skill ceiling is lowered right?"
    No. It means the skillfloor is lowered, it's easier to be "adequate" now, but the ceiling refers to how far you can express your individual skill.. and that remains unchanged or increased - your ability to land every bullet previously is not lessened.


    Edit:
    I'd also like to point out something many of you may be unaware of (and you can verify for yourself in the viewer) is that the old hitboxes didn't cover certain portions of the model sometimes.. that's how tiny they were.
    But besides that, such small hitboxes just don't work well in fast FPS games.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Bicsum
  • Vert^Vert^ Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181227Members Posts: 202 Advanced user
    Thanks for deleting my within guideline threads regarding UWE's direction with NS2. I will now apply for a consumer case against you breaking your own guidelines and take my post to various boards across steam.

    This finally proved to me that you're incapable of taking critic from your own players and are lost in your own ego.

    Have a great life with this ****ed game.
    Currently creating the custom map, ns2_prison. Drop by the forum thread to leave feedback, thank you! #Lastest build update: 28/01-2018

    SWS DM map: ns2_sws_cube - forum thread.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    Skill floor plummeted for skulks though :) Probably more so than skill floor raised for marines
    IronHorseNordicHandschuhFrozen
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    @Wob Agree - even though you meant "raised" - (my fault, I've edited my prior post)

    It will more than likely require further adjustments for skulks, especially for the early game.. but.. tbh.. the early game was already an issue for aliens that needed addressing.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Nominous
  • xtalxtal aka X-rayCat Join Date: 2009-06-28 Member: 67961Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 74 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    This looks like quite sociopath move, to change such important thing in game and not tell anything about it. Do you feel better now, when you know you did destroy many games in past two weeks? Can you answer why did you do that? If you won't, I will assume you just don't comprehend the reality.

    On other side:
    I'm all for making noob skulk stronger vs pro marine, or noob marine stronger vs pro skulk and this change could be in that way. But please make those changes wiser. E.g. when you make something that can buff one side, you have to compensate from second side.
    neoo
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,199 mod
    MaxAmus wrote: »
    I think what everyone needs to realize is that UWE had 10+ years to improve player retention, and failed. they then after leaving NS2 to the CDT, then coming back again to form a PDT, giving a 3 month deadline to improve player retention? like wtf? they couldnt do in 10 years what a group were given 3 months...

    9 months.

    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    Nordic
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    I had 3 awesome rounds today where NS2 felt like the NS2 the way i know and love.
    And i can tell you:
    If people know what they are doing and they are communicating, the aliens doesnt feel that different then lets say 2 years ago.

    Playercount is the same but people leave the game for whatever reason. (other games, real life,..)
    So the vets got replaced by new players.
    This changes the way NS2 is played in pub now.
    Things that worked 1 year ago didnt work anymore cause people doesnt know what they are doing or they dont listen.
    This leads to frustration. (me included)

    But these rare 3 rounds today included all the stuff i missed in 90% of the rounds.
    NS2 lives from gameknowledge and communication.
    All that combined on one server is still great.
    image
    remiMe9aStardog
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Therius wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    "But if it's easier to shoot things then surely that means the skill ceiling is lowered right?"
    No. It means the skillfloor is lowered, it's easier to be "adequate" now, but the ceiling refers to how far you can express your individual skill.. and that remains unchanged or increased - your ability to land every bullet previously is not lessened.

    You do not need as much skill as before to land perfect shots. That's the very definition of a lowered skill ceiling. If pressing mouse1 automatically made every bullet connect always, would you still say that the skill ceiling is not lowered since "your ability to land every bullet is not lessened"?
    Lowering the skill ceiling would mean that you would make it impossible to exceed 25% accuracy, e.g. with random spread. The skill ceiling for shooting is hitting with 100% accuracy.
    IronHorse
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    edited July 2016
    @Therius
    Therius wrote: »
    You do not need as much skill as before to land perfect shots. That's the very definition of a lowered skill ceiling.
    No.. no it's not.
    That's a common misconception regarding the two terms. You're describing the skill floor. You can STILL land 100% of your bullets if you are able to - that's the skill ceiling.
    Bicsum already explained this further after your post so I'll leave it there.
    Therius wrote: »
    They have worked amazingly well so far. NS2 has had by far the best hitboxes I've ever seen in a game..
    No.. no they haven't.
    And in fact their issues can lead to hitreg issues, as I've already stated, because they were so insufficient.
    Here's a video demonstrating that exact scenario, where the shoulder, back and head area of the skulk model were not covered by the hitbox:
    And here's a pic of what I mean:
    bBgtZUf.jpg

    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Handschuh
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    The problem of balance is often formulated in two forms: the logical problem of balance and the evidential problem of balance The logical form of the argument tries to show a logical impossibility in the coexistence of balance PDT, while the evidential form tries to show that given the balance in the game, it is improbable that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, and wholly good PDT.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Wont be playing NS2 until it's playable again
    The_Welsh_Wizardcoolitictallhotblonde
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Rautapalli wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Therius wrote: »
    You do not need as much skill as before to land perfect shots. That's the very definition of a lowered skill ceiling.
    No.. no it's not.
    That's a common misconception regarding the two terms. You're describing the skill floor. You can STILL land 100% of your bullets if you are able to - that's the skill ceiling.
    Bicsum already explained this further after your post so I'll leave it there.
    The skill ceiling is the point where you're playing perfect, hitting those 100% bullets like you said. Bigger hitboxes make it EASIER to hit 100% bullets, so the skill ceiling is lowered, as reaching the skill ceiling no longer requires as much skill. This is the conclusion I came to after googling the term and looking at different places. There is no definitive answer but that's what most people seem to consider it as.

    Skill floor is the minimum amount of skill you need to play the game effectively. NS2 is a high skill floor and high skill ceiling game. What needs to be lowered is the skill floor, not the skill ceiling.

    No, it is: "bigger hitboxes make it EASIER to hit 100% bullets, so the skill floor is lowered, because being effective at shooting no longer requires as much skill".
    IronHorse
  • RautapalliRautapalli Join Date: 2010-07-23 Member: 72710Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 151 Advanced user
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Rautapalli wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Therius wrote: »
    You do not need as much skill as before to land perfect shots. That's the very definition of a lowered skill ceiling.
    No.. no it's not.
    That's a common misconception regarding the two terms. You're describing the skill floor. You can STILL land 100% of your bullets if you are able to - that's the skill ceiling.
    Bicsum already explained this further after your post so I'll leave it there.
    The skill ceiling is the point where you're playing perfect, hitting those 100% bullets like you said. Bigger hitboxes make it EASIER to hit 100% bullets, so the skill ceiling is lowered, as reaching the skill ceiling no longer requires as much skill. This is the conclusion I came to after googling the term and looking at different places. There is no definitive answer but that's what most people seem to consider it as.

    Skill floor is the minimum amount of skill you need to play the game effectively. NS2 is a high skill floor and high skill ceiling game. What needs to be lowered is the skill floor, not the skill ceiling.

    No, it is: "bigger hitboxes make it EASIER to hit 100% bullets, so the skill floor is lowered, because being effective in this game no longer requires as much skill".

    Yes, that is correct. It does lower the skill floor. But it also lowers the skill ceiling.
    cooliticAlite
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    I'm sorry, but no, the change does not limit you to get better accuracy than others. I know this is weird, but you're thinking about it wrong.
    IronHorse
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