Pulling back the veil - Natural Selection 2

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  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    So if the goal was just to fix hitreg why not add more health to lifeforms to compensate for added accuracy?
    twiliteblue
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    Neoken wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I don't understand you guys.

    For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!

    How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!

    What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.

    I know you mean well, but if you really think making hitboxes larger is going to have any positive effect regarding the skill gap, you're simply delusional. If anything, it'll make experienced players stomp rookies even harder. Just like the HP bar, this change completely misses the goal it was meant to achieve, while dumbing down the game in the progress.

    The only significant effects changes like these have is that it'll push away even more veteran players. But perhaps that's the goal after all.

    Do we at least agree that reducing the skill gap is a good objective?

    That is an absolutely terrible objective. It is good to lower the skill floor though.
    Therius
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    No one wants to reduce the fucking skill gap. People want to play even matches. Learn language similarities so retaryed clarifications lile this don't wind up the topic of their own thread
    mattji104
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    ..I want to reduce the skill gap?..

    I don't remotely enjoy my teammates losing every engagement, thus losing the round AND I don't enjoy melting a ground lerk. Do you?
    I much more enjoy playing with similarly skilled players.

    And I don't see the benefit that comes from having such a skill gap?
    It's not fun for either player on the ends of the spectrum.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Wake
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,690 Advanced user
    I don't think you guys should be playing games with the community, tell people what you want to do upfront and do it. The inevitable outrage isn't going to go away because you delay the reveal, it just makes people feel deceived.

    That said I like bigger hitboxes, because NS2 is a ludicrously fast-paced game and it's impossible to intentionally avoid shooting bullets through a skulk's legs etc. Fudging the hitboxes to make the hit reg feel more consistent is standard practice in shooters like this. However it should go without saying that time to kill and subsequently game balance is going to shift in a big way when you mess with hitboxes, and I don't think you should make a change like that without at least attempting to compensate in alien survivability.
    barnie
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 957 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    tbh I don't want that change. Just thought it might help though (Sometimes I do suggestions that are against my personal opinion if I think it helps contributing towards the goal... not many people do this) --> refers to proposed bite changes 2 pages ago

    Oh and the only way to reduce skill gap effectively is adding something that in a mathmatical level is ineffective on paper but easy to use. Like it has been mentioned alot before, weapons like the noob tube. Easy to use and to some degree effective, though there are weapons that are much more effective if used correctly

    On another note I don't think it is necessary to reduce skill gap if we have a matchmaking system with enough people to run it going. If not then the only way to get enjoyable rounds for most people is to reduce the skillgap (which I am still not 100% convived of if this is a good idea)
    Post edited by Mephilles on
    return to zero
    .trixX.jrgn
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    @devs
    what good is using your dwindling playerbase as playtesters when you intend to ignore all feedback you get from it anyway.

    New plan:
    Wasn't there a beta branch created on steam for competetive that retained the old version?
    Maybe we could all switch that.
    The_Welsh_Wizard.trixX.migalskicoolitic
  • SherlockSherlock Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168595Members Posts: 163 Fully active user
    edited July 2016
    Bacillus wrote: »
    backflip 270 jumpshot

    I didn't realise how much I wanted this as an in-game achievement until now.
    .trixX.Vetinaricoolitic
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 622 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    How would you feel about this change if they looked at the average accuracy before and after the change, then buffed lifeform health to make the average time to kill identical? (You'd want to look at the numbers multiplicatively, so that going from 10%->15% enters the average in the same way as going from 20->30%) Overall, engagements would play out the same way as before, except that players who aim worse would hit more often, and the game would feel more satisfying. Would this address your concerns? If the change was all about "feel" and didn't affect the outcomes of encounters much, would you like it more?

    But it would? You're not taking into account firing rate, clip sizes, different weapons, minimum time to kill, and thats just off the top of my head. How do you determine "average" accuracy reliably anyway? Do you shoot the same percentages against all lifeforms? Are we just going to take the average percentage the playtesters hit in a controlled environment?

    This is as relevant as asking if you would like suger high fructose corn syrup more if it was salty.
  • TyrwingTyrwing Sweden Join Date: 2015-11-23 Member: 209435Members Posts: 41 Advanced user
    Sherlock wrote: »
    Bacillus wrote: »
    backflip 270 jumpshot

    I didn't realise how much I wanted this as an in-game achievement until now.

    I accidently caught myself 360 shooting an onos. I don't know if that threw him off. I died anyway.
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
    Pelargir wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    edit: Nevermind, idk why I even bother since apparently everybody is an expert who has surely tested their own claims before making them, right? I'm just wasting my time saying anything.

    You concede? B)

    Ironhorse would never concede, he just F4s to the ready room.
    PM sent.
    DC_DarklingIronHorsecoolitic
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Neoken wrote: »
    The way to reduce the skill gap is to make the game easier to learn, not easier to play.
    The game is too complex and unforgiving to somehow make it easier to learn without making it easier to play - unless you want to start from scratch and make NS3.
    That's why Rookie Only servers and tutorials were the only safe approach in that regard. There really isn't any way to make the game itself intrinsically easier to learn while playing, without making it easier to play.

    I see many nodding their heads here in agreement regarding that NS shouldn't be easy to play, or that the skill gap shouldn't be lessened.
    I just don't get the benefit of this at all.... Does anyone care to provide one?

    Unless it's just that people enjoy stroking their own ego, feeling like gods amongst ants.. I see no benefit to having such a large gap.
    Does it feel good to spend 800 hours on a MP game until you are adequate? Not really.. It feels great along the way as you improve, but you are a rarity to last that long - the average NS2 user has like 20-40 hours before quitting. So you're sacrificing your desire for incredibly slow improvement for a playerbase.

    I don't want to get back into arguing over semantics on terminology, but I feel like many of you fear that an easier to learn game somehow means it will be less skillfull. That's hogwash.
    CS is easy to learn, difficult to master. So is Othello (a board game) and many others.. There is no downside to making a game easier to play, especially if the skill ceiling is stupidly high like NS2.





    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    StardogBike_Man
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    IronHorse wrote: »
    unless you want to start from scratch and make NS3.

    Yes please.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    halfofaheavenThe_Welsh_Wizard.trixX.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    There really isn't any way to make the game itself intrinsically easier to learn while playing, without making it easier to play.

    Wow, wrong. Killcams.
    mattji104
    .trixX.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    edited July 2016
    Yea that helps... but it's pretty much never going to happen. So next suggestion?

    Also, is there a reason you didn't answer my question?
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 722 Advanced user
    Create some drill instructor icons, give it to volunteers / sociable persons, put them ingame and have some icons floating above them when they talk using the instructor power.

    7tgdn21w7t6v.jpg
    yh6yjiklnr5k.jpg


    Freak out
    RevanCorana.trixX.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Skill gap is an issue only in small playerbase games, if you want less skill gap increase your playerbase, go freetoplay

    Sacrificing skill ceiling does not work.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    The simple answer is the game isn't fun enough! And making the game fun isn't one of the core PDT goals
    mattji104
  • Scout255Scout255 Canada Join Date: 2015-01-24 Member: 201015Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 18 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Aliens definitely need a buff early game. With the hit change as a marine who can somewhat shoot it's easy for me to crush the first wave of skulks and destroy cysts/ RTs to the point the aliens never get higher life forms.

    If due to some amazing alien team play or incredibly deerpy Marines (or sometimes both) the aliens maintain 2 res nodes outside of base, the balance seems to swing the other way once fades pop, and even more so after onos are up.

    If hit boxes must be oversized for some reason that I don't understand have you considered going back to the old skulk hotboxes and shrinking the skulk model slightly? That way skulks are as easy to hit as they were before and they still have an oversized hitbox. Other hit boxes for the higher life forms don't seem to be too bad, so you could leave those as-is.

    This combined with the implemented better bite radius (which makes up close and personal skulks much more dangerous) may make early alien game play exciting and fun again, even when your team is out matched.....

    This also has the plus of not needing to tweak skulk HP/Armor to try to balance everything out.....
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