grey box can only really test the flow of the map, individual rooms and their bias for marine or alien only comes into effect with real prop work and lighting. you can play test a grey box map to perfection but once its detailed it will need completely retesting
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Hence the need to test during all stages of production. The flow of the map being more important to making a map balanced overall (including general route lengths, lines of sight, imbalances in combat viability per side of a starting TP due to room shapes and layouts, etc), early stage testing is very vital, in my experience.
As far as I'm aware, Janos and Alibi intended to publish the map on the workshop in a largely greyboxed state, with two rooms or so detailed as a preview of what's to come. Sounds like a good plan to me, but I think I speak for everyone that we all want that day to come.
I actually really appreciate the concern and criticism, those are all true and valid points to discuss and helpful to us.
A DIRECT port of this map would have never worked for NS2, it was barely acceptable even with the early type 3 hive mechanics; we all know how many iterations the original had seen to keep up with the changes.
To bring any map without the tried and true layout pattern most of the maps have is a gamble but that's what we're doing.
We have studied and dissected the original layout to bring what we think is a workable ns2 layout and it is unlike any other map for NS2. We (and some of you) are keen to see some different layout types and I think this is the perfect platform to try something new.
Even if it it doesn't work flawlessly right away, we still want to bring that 'hera' feel back to our screens with the respect it deserves.
This past year we've barely touched this project (working on other things) and have kept any updates to ourselves because we don't want to get excited given the huge question mark of time that has always lingered over the project.
Recently we are excited to bring it alive again particularly in light of the community project gathering momentum and also because you are all still keen to see it happen. Trust me, we are stressing to get it done as fast as possible. We've tackled the most difficult areas first so it should come together from here quickly.
Don't worry, we haven't been doing any proper visuals lately, just building everything for testing as fast as possible.
It's messy, but it allows a lot more detail in a shorter time (of which we don't have much of!). Janos is much neater than me at this stage haha
All the rooms need extensive redesign, it's taking time. The original map was famous for it's cooler rooms but there were definitely more bad ones than we remember. Think back to cargo/ventilation/north corridor etc.. they were too small, too simple.. then there is the confusion that is Processing.. so many ladders!
I've taken these rooms on first to get the bigger question marks out of the way.
We are definitely keeping those interesting height variations that made Hera fun to play but removing those bastard ladders and pokey and cramped paths! (yay).
HMM, Janos will probably kill me for doing this but anyway, here is some small shots just to show the progress of the redesigning. Any lighting is purely for me to help build, it hasn't had any attention yet
MS rebuilt. Smaller, more structured, better:
TP is moved to the back corner instead of in the middle of the room. Easier for marines to protect the landing pad from here:
Corridor toward a new room called Entrance. Upper ramp is access to the catwalk that overlooks landing pad.
Entrance!:
(RP is tucked in on the other side):
One of a million shitty sketches that are usually on my desk including an (oldish) layout I use for brain storming. This one is of Processing, the next room I am building. You may notice there are two new rooms, one south of Archiving as well as Entrance RP room. You may also notice that reception is separated from entrance and is now a TP room...
Currently working on Cargo.. shaping up nicely. Think storage containers on either side in the 3 panel things.
Left stairs heads toward Processing/holo, right mezzanine access to Processing upper:
Height advantage on the Marines side. In the middle goes toward the elevator to MS (currently blocked) and also to the upper level access making it difficult for fat aliens to get from Cargo to MS too quickly:
Ventilation made good, you probably won't recognize much. The yellow pipes remain as well as the 'water' pipes that used to be underneath, visible to the left. Under the floor is crawlable for skulks making this a very holdable hive for Aliens.
Maintenance I wanted to build something more interesting than the generator room or whatever it was.
This still needs some work but we have decided to have Maint now a secret storage spot for a massive mech robot thing Hera is a research and construction facility for a bad ass massive robot. It will stand on the platform here:
I only post this WIP to reassure you it is happening and we are excited and confident for it's completion!
Very soon we should be getting to playable and have a full layout ready for dissecting.
looking good! Using shapes so loosely (with the intersecting faces etc) is actually a really nice way of grey-boxing. Looking forward to testing it
Thanks for sharing
Loving what I've seen so far, here is a little something for the two of you.
Props can be pretty, but brushes are beautiful.
Props can be pleasant, but brushes are a bitch...
Exactly. There are so many maps now that -- and I'd like to coin a phrase here -- suffer from "prop-storm" syndrome. A violent storm came through the map one day and scattered a massive amount of completely random props around the level, and they stuck there for some reason, despite lacking any sort of coherent theme or color palette.
Loving what I've seen so far, here is a little something for the two of you.
Props can be pretty, but brushes are beautiful.
Props can be pleasant, but brushes are a bitch...
Exactly. There are so many maps now that -- and I'd like to coin a phrase here -- suffer from "prop-storm" syndrome. A violent storm came through the map one day and scattered a massive amount of completely random props around the level, and they stuck there for some reason, despite lacking any sort of coherent theme or color palette.
That seems to be how every map is these days, random props scattered around.
Loving what I've seen so far, here is a little something for the two of you.
Props can be pretty, but brushes are beautiful.
Props can be pleasant, but brushes are a bitch...
Exactly. There are so many maps now that -- and I'd like to coin a phrase here -- suffer from "prop-storm" syndrome. A violent storm came through the map one day and scattered a massive amount of completely random props around the level, and they stuck there for some reason, despite lacking any sort of coherent theme or color palette.
That seems to be how every map is these days, random props scattered around.
Exactly! Biodome and Eclipse, for example, yea they use a TON of props, but they use them right. I've seen a ton of custom maps where just anything goes. You'll see the brown biodome stuff just randomly thrown in amongst the green eclipse stuff, for example.
More props != more pretty. It takes a lot of time and imagination to figure out how all these props can fit together properly.
If the prior screenshots of 'Shipping bay' and the ready room are anything to go off, which they are, then it's quiet obvious this remake won't suffer from a "prop-storm." Working with brushes can pay off immensely, but anyone who has worked with brushes knows it can be quite a painstaking process.
Thankfully the Editor has been improved so that working with brushes has become more tolerable.
Two features that I personally think are needed for the Editor to encourage more people to work with brushes:
-The texturing tool needs a simple button that changes the rotation values of ALL the selected textures from positive to negative and vice versa e.g. ('135' to '-135' or '-11.25' to '11.25'). Essentially, whenever a mapper flips a group of brush geometry the mapper doesn't have to individually 'flip' the texture rotation values of every brush affected.
-The snap X,Y,Z tool, needs to have the option to snap all objects within a selection (in relation to the possible directions within an axis) to the furthermost object in that group (e.g. left or right on X axis, up or down on Y axis, front or back on Z axis). This is necessary, as any experimenting with moving, rotating, especially welding copy-paste brush groups to build a full room (brush architecture that moves away from perpendicular lines) will inevitably have brushes that aren't on grid. So being able to snap vertices exactly to match a template(cornerstone) for a set of brush architecture that isn't on grid can stop whole rooms and maps from slowing skewing/warping.
Thanks for the encouragement, it is much appreciated.
Yeah, props are good if you theme correctly. We pretty much stick to the same bunch props from different themes that work well together and duplicate well to balance with brushwork.
The RR was a test bed for this but it will be slightly refined to include new props (and style) where appropriate.
Once this hits play-testing I plan to make several unique wall and pillar props specifically for Hera inspired by the original texture set to replace the generic refinery walls and pillars that I enjoy building with.
I also intend to build one or two unique props per room as required. EG, the larger pillars, The holo room thing, new signage etc etc.
Props are in rooms to give a background story, like cargo on veil. The boxes and containers there are not just randomly scattered, i can imagine all the other possibilities, locations, rotations and modelscales that was tested in the beta stages before finding a good balanced layout for that room using nothing but models to break down the flat open areas.
Props are in rooms to give a background story, like cargo on veil. The boxes and containers there are not just randomly scattered, i can imagine all the other possibilities, locations, rotations and modelscales that was tested in the beta stages before finding a good balanced layout for that room using nothing but models to break down the flat open areas.
Yea cargo is fine, it all fits the same theme. What I was referring to is when mappers place lots of props in an area just with the hope that any prop will work. What results is just an explosion of different conflicting art directions all in the same space. It's not pretty.
Hehe, a little. Additional blockers like containers, volume lights, etc etc aren't present yet. It's deceiving from the editor and in grey, actually no longer lines than those in existing maps... except the ms to landing pad as it stands. I intend to scale everything down as small as allowable later, probably 10-15% I guess?
Comments
As far as I'm aware, Janos and Alibi intended to publish the map on the workshop in a largely greyboxed state, with two rooms or so detailed as a preview of what's to come. Sounds like a good plan to me, but I think I speak for everyone that we all want that day to come.
A DIRECT port of this map would have never worked for NS2, it was barely acceptable even with the early type 3 hive mechanics; we all know how many iterations the original had seen to keep up with the changes.
To bring any map without the tried and true layout pattern most of the maps have is a gamble but that's what we're doing.
We have studied and dissected the original layout to bring what we think is a workable ns2 layout and it is unlike any other map for NS2. We (and some of you) are keen to see some different layout types and I think this is the perfect platform to try something new.
Even if it it doesn't work flawlessly right away, we still want to bring that 'hera' feel back to our screens with the respect it deserves.
This past year we've barely touched this project (working on other things) and have kept any updates to ourselves because we don't want to get excited given the huge question mark of time that has always lingered over the project.
Recently we are excited to bring it alive again particularly in light of the community project gathering momentum and also because you are all still keen to see it happen. Trust me, we are stressing to get it done as fast as possible. We've tackled the most difficult areas first so it should come together from here quickly.
Stay hopeful as we are
'The Epic raising of the Hera-station Lolly Pop'
Progress (2012-2014):
- 2012 - August - Landing Pad
- 2012 - October - Landing Pad
- 2012 - December - Techpoint & Landing Pad
- 2013 - March - Ready Room
- 2013 - August - Message: No Time / Personal Life
- 2013 - December - Message: Working on it for last few weeks / announcement of greybox (workshop)
- 2014 - March - Message: Alibi / Janos are actively working on hera - Logo
- 2014 - May - Message: Layout changes for a playable state. We are stressing to get it done.
- 2014 - July - Waiting for greybox version (on workshop)...
Upcoming: Greybox Version (on workshop)PS: They are doing this all in their spare time & for free, so dont be sad if there is nothing new.
Don't worry, we haven't been doing any proper visuals lately, just building everything for testing as fast as possible.
It's messy, but it allows a lot more detail in a shorter time (of which we don't have much of!). Janos is much neater than me at this stage haha
All the rooms need extensive redesign, it's taking time. The original map was famous for it's cooler rooms but there were definitely more bad ones than we remember. Think back to cargo/ventilation/north corridor etc.. they were too small, too simple.. then there is the confusion that is Processing.. so many ladders!
I've taken these rooms on first to get the bigger question marks out of the way.
We are definitely keeping those interesting height variations that made Hera fun to play but removing those bastard ladders and pokey and cramped paths! (yay).
HMM, Janos will probably kill me for doing this but anyway, here is some small shots just to show the progress of the redesigning. Any lighting is purely for me to help build, it hasn't had any attention yet
MS rebuilt. Smaller, more structured, better:
TP is moved to the back corner instead of in the middle of the room. Easier for marines to protect the landing pad from here:
Corridor toward a new room called Entrance. Upper ramp is access to the catwalk that overlooks landing pad.
Entrance!:
(RP is tucked in on the other side):
One of a million shitty sketches that are usually on my desk including an (oldish) layout I use for brain storming. This one is of Processing, the next room I am building. You may notice there are two new rooms, one south of Archiving as well as Entrance RP room. You may also notice that reception is separated from entrance and is now a TP room...
Currently working on Cargo.. shaping up nicely. Think storage containers on either side in the 3 panel things.
Left stairs heads toward Processing/holo, right mezzanine access to Processing upper:
Height advantage on the Marines side. In the middle goes toward the elevator to MS (currently blocked) and also to the upper level access making it difficult for fat aliens to get from Cargo to MS too quickly:
Ventilation made good, you probably won't recognize much. The yellow pipes remain as well as the 'water' pipes that used to be underneath, visible to the left. Under the floor is crawlable for skulks making this a very holdable hive for Aliens.
Maintenance I wanted to build something more interesting than the generator room or whatever it was.
This still needs some work but we have decided to have Maint now a secret storage spot for a massive mech robot thing Hera is a research and construction facility for a bad ass massive robot. It will stand on the platform here:
I only post this WIP to reassure you it is happening and we are excited and confident for it's completion!
Very soon we should be getting to playable and have a full layout ready for dissecting.
Cheers
Thanks for sharing
Props can be pretty, but brushes are beautiful.
Props can be pleasant, but brushes are a bitch...
Exactly. There are so many maps now that -- and I'd like to coin a phrase here -- suffer from "prop-storm" syndrome. A violent storm came through the map one day and scattered a massive amount of completely random props around the level, and they stuck there for some reason, despite lacking any sort of coherent theme or color palette.
Exactly! Biodome and Eclipse, for example, yea they use a TON of props, but they use them right. I've seen a ton of custom maps where just anything goes. You'll see the brown biodome stuff just randomly thrown in amongst the green eclipse stuff, for example.
More props != more pretty. It takes a lot of time and imagination to figure out how all these props can fit together properly.
Thankfully the Editor has been improved so that working with brushes has become more tolerable.
Two features that I personally think are needed for the Editor to encourage more people to work with brushes:
-The snap X,Y,Z tool, needs to have the option to snap all objects within a selection (in relation to the possible directions within an axis) to the furthermost object in that group (e.g. left or right on X axis, up or down on Y axis, front or back on Z axis). This is necessary, as any experimenting with moving, rotating, especially welding copy-paste brush groups to build a full room (brush architecture that moves away from perpendicular lines) will inevitably have brushes that aren't on grid. So being able to snap vertices exactly to match a template(cornerstone) for a set of brush architecture that isn't on grid can stop whole rooms and maps from slowing skewing/warping.
Yeah, props are good if you theme correctly. We pretty much stick to the same bunch props from different themes that work well together and duplicate well to balance with brushwork.
The RR was a test bed for this but it will be slightly refined to include new props (and style) where appropriate.
Once this hits play-testing I plan to make several unique wall and pillar props specifically for Hera inspired by the original texture set to replace the generic refinery walls and pillars that I enjoy building with.
I also intend to build one or two unique props per room as required. EG, the larger pillars, The holo room thing, new signage etc etc.
Yea cargo is fine, it all fits the same theme. What I was referring to is when mappers place lots of props in an area just with the hope that any prop will work. What results is just an explosion of different conflicting art directions all in the same space. It's not pretty.
Brushes is what people used to Quake/HL mapping call geometry. The good old times!