Where are my bugfixes!? - Natural Selection 2

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  • AdambeanAdambean Cardiff, South WalesMembers, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2005-06-03 Member: 53038Posts: 122 Advanced user
    Many members of the team took a few scheduled days off after Reinforced, to recover from lack of sleep, lack of family and an overload of coding.
    I've not been disappointed with an update so far, and effort much appreciated my good sirs. Fair doos I suck at this game but I still enjoy it more than most other games I've played. :)
    Enjoy my shadow support <3
    Thanks, Adam Reece.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    antd00d wrote: »
    You know the community is gonna pin you down on thursday, right?

    :D
    "It will probably arrive on Steam next Thursday." :P Probably. They didn't say it will happen.

    Doesn't matter in any way - the keyword is "Thursday" not "probably" (what does that mean anyway).

    :D
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    (what does that mean anyway)

    It's called covering your ass, which is smart.
    76561197996992409.png
    Vetinari
  • xzeroxzero Members Join Date: 2013-09-13 Member: 188199Posts: 4
    thanks for gorgeous and reinforced.. i love this game and will always support you guys!
    B3rTGeekavenger
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CASuper Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,779 admin
    edited September 2013
    RedSword wrote: »
    I am disappointed by this. Since you own the game I feel like you could have postponed that update if you felt something was wrong...

    I've taken some time out today to consider your argument, RedSword, as I feel it is a position that is widely held in the NS2 community (and across many games, in general!) It is an example of the result of information asymmetry between us (the developer) and you (the player), the produces the following misconception:

    EDIT: If you look at these graphs and don't read the article (http://www.gameaperture.com/2013/09/community-discontent-as-result-of.html) you won't get it ;)
    A1Misconception.jpg

    When reality looks like this:
    A1Reality.jpg

    You can read the entire discussion on my blog, here: http://www.gameaperture.com/2013/09/community-discontent-as-result-of.html
    Post edited by Hugh on
    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
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  • BigDaveBigDave Members Join Date: 2013-05-22 Member: 185335Posts: 14
    I would offer my services but im just too busy, stupid kids birthday party's
  • tuxatortuxator Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Posts: 145 Fully active user
    tl;dr we fucked up with a too tight time schedule, our employees are burned out and now we need at least a few days to get everyone back on track.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CASuper Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,779 admin
    edited September 2013
    tuxator wrote: »
    tl;dr we fucked up with a too tight time schedule, our employees are burned out and now we need at least a few days to get everyone back on track.

    As you didn't read it, you missed the part where I explain that that is not the case :). The unfortunate nature of "tl;dr" is that one can't possibly consider the argument proposed, and stating your own opinion as fact is not a good substitute. While it certainly your right to do so, and no one is going to stop you, it doesn't make this forum a pleasant place for I or other members of the team to come and converse with you.

    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
    Chat with the UWE team on Twitter | The best way to be notified about Subnautica updates is to sign up to our development newsletters
    IronHorsetwiliteblue
  • AchillesAchilles Members Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Posts: 73 Fully active user
    From the graphs, it appears from UWE's perspective that they'd come close to nailing their perfect version of the game at one point, but had some serious dropoffs with balance and performance changes, and are trying to again reach that level of solidarity.

    Is this correct to assume? I want to agree with you guys, and performance is whatever, mistakes are made, then fixed, it happens, life goes on.. Performance issues are expected, as other members here have said, but the balance is the most important factor.

    I feel like some of the balance changes are so great, and so game-changing, that UWE takes the position literally of throwing things at the wall. That's a strange point of view to take given their attention to the game so far, and their constant efforts to fix and re-fix and re-balance their game, but things like strafe jump make the community feel (in my opinion) that the designers are losing the core focus, the vision of the game, that it felt like they'd come so close to achieving in the past, as your graphs show us.

    I feel the same way, honestly, in that past builds got damned close to being perfect without changing the nature of the original game too much, but I know that balance changes were needed. Just, how many changes, and were they made in the right areas?

    This post is about gameplay mechanics, really. Performance, well, that's the easy part I think. I know a lot of older members here are groaning because of repeated performance issues, but hey we all know it's a new engine and the problems that go along with it. My point is that performance has A to B solutions, physical, tangible fixes that can and will be done, but balance is a much more amorphous (da dum chiss) and slippery concept.

    The more time passes and the more the game changes, I think the community gets nervous that the vision for the game will be lost in these changes. They want tighter, more controlled changes as time goes on, not more wild and unpredictable changes as seems to be happening. They should be dialing it in when it feels like they're still messing with core mechanics, like you would in a beta. Once performance is fixed, which it will eventually be, a stable core game will keep players or drive them away.

    Thanks for the replies again, really is an insanely awesome level of communication here.
  • tuxatortuxator Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Posts: 145 Fully active user
    Hugh wrote: »
    tuxator wrote: »
    tl;dr we fucked up with a too tight time schedule, our employees are burned out and now we need at least a few days to get everyone back on track.

    As you didn't read it, you missed the part where I explain that that is not the case :). The unfortunate nature of "tl;dr" is that one can't possibly consider the argument proposed, and stating your own opinion as fact is not a good substitute. While it certainly your right to do so, and no one is going to stop you, it doesn't make this forum a pleasant place for I or other members of the team to come and converse with you.

    Well, in the news article you put on the website it says something about unfixed bugs, about 'pushing limits' and that the next bugfix is delayed because people are stressed out after they needed to work more than usual to get their work done until a certain point in time. All the other stuff in that article is just marketing bla-bla. It's trying to sweet-word that either the payload (features) was too high or the amount of time was too short or the amount of developers was not high enough.

    I'm a software developer myself, I had to argue about such things with project managers, too. Of course they usually ignore stuff (which is when you get them to write you an e-mail with said date and them pushing your doubts asaid so that your ass is covered when shit will hit the fan). And there is a difference between 'some bugs after a patch' and 'at least one of the features isn't usable to any of the users that could use it'.

    Now, I'm neither in the position nor do I want to point the finger at someone and say they are at fault. Shit happens. I know that and I guess you guys know that, too. I just hate it when people try to sweet-talk that they fucked up. It wastes time that is better used to fix it.
    MrFangsYuuki
  • AchillesAchilles Members Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Posts: 73 Fully active user
    tuxator wrote: »
    Well, in the news article you put on the website it says something about unfixed bugs, about 'pushing limits' and that the next bugfix is delayed because people are stressed out after they needed to work more than usual to get their work done until a certain point in time. All the other stuff in that article is just marketing bla-bla. It's trying to sweet-word that either the payload (features) was too high or the amount of time was too short or the amount of developers was not high enough.

    I'm a software developer myself, I had to argue about such things with project managers, too. Of course they usually ignore stuff (which is when you get them to write you an e-mail with said date and them pushing your doubts asaid so that your ass is covered when shit will hit the fan). And there is a difference between 'some bugs after a patch' and 'at least one of the features isn't usable to any of the users that could use it'.

    Now, I'm neither in the position nor do I want to point the finger at someone and say they are at fault. Shit happens. I know that and I guess you guys know that, too. I just hate it when people try to sweet-talk that they fucked up. It wastes time that is better used to fix it.

    In no way is communication from the dev team a waste of time, even if most of it is 'fluffy.' You have apparently never tried to communicate with an unresponsive dev team, or one that literally feeds you blatant lies in the few messages it does post. That's sadly the norm in today's massive, cannibalistic, big-business game industry.
    IronHorseshonanHamlet
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CASuper Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,779 admin
    Achilles wrote: »
    From the graphs, it appears from UWE's perspective that... Is this correct to assume?

    No. The graphs have nothing to do with the progress of a particular game, or performance, or balance, or anything of the sort. I suggest (politely!) that you read the article again: http://www.gameaperture.com/2013/09/community-discontent-as-result-of.html

    The graphs are visual aids to help with making an argument about the point of optimal value in a release cycle, and how a difference between a player perceived optimum and the developer's optimum come about.
    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
    Chat with the UWE team on Twitter | The best way to be notified about Subnautica updates is to sign up to our development newsletters
  • tuxatortuxator Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Posts: 145 Fully active user
    @Achilles
    In no way is communication from the dev team a waste of time, even if most of it is 'fluffy

    true on the first part, on the second part...I'm not sure about that, but that'd be my opinion.

    About the other stuff: True on that.
  • PostawaPostawa Members Join Date: 2007-02-08 Member: 59912Posts: 17
    This post just reinforces that I will be donating asap!
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Posts: 2,816 admin
    Golden wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with patches being released with a few bugs. What I do have a problem with is the consistency with which UWE releases buggy and/or poorly balanced builds just prior to a huge promotion, a.k.a. PAX or a free weekend.
    This gets said a lot, but I disagree that this is the case. Gorgeous was not a "buggy" build. Our last free weekend was not being played on a buggy build. The game has performed beautifully at all of our PAX shows, with next to no crashes or framerate issues. And anytime you release a load of new content and features, like new maps, new abilities and weapons, the balance is bound to be off for the first little while as people adjust to learning those new things. But you can't hold off the promotion until a month after the big update has gone out, just to allow time for those things to get smoothed over.

    Yes, the free weekend before the Reinforced one did suffer from the same issues we'd had since release, and have since tried to address - low framerates and lack of a proper tutorial, key among them. But those were not problems that were introduced right before the releases, they were things that had been issues from day 1, required long term solutions, and that we were continuing to work on.

    With the Reinforced free weekend we had come a long way on the performance side of things since the previous free weekend, we had added a functional tutorial, loads of tip videos, and a lot of balance work had been done. Yes the rendering changes were a risk, but we were feeling pretty confident about them, since they had been in the works for quite some time, and we hadn't experienced major issues. Everything always seems easy to do better in hindsight, but since we still can't look into the future (though we have Max working hard on the tech to allow us to be able to do that) we have to make the best decisions we can at a given time, based on the information at hand.




    XaoNazoKelrath
  • AchillesAchilles Members Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Posts: 73 Fully active user
    It's obvious the work that UWE does put into their releases and builds, but I think some of this frustration with the release timings go with the player count spikes/dips. It's frustrating to be devoted to a game, see it jump in player count, then sharply drop off yet again and be reduced to the same handful of servers full of same players as before the promotion.

    I'm sure you devs understand this completely, as it's your jobs and your product on the line lol, but most of it comes from just wanting to see these spikes KEEP the players, and this game to get the long, stable day in the sun it deserves. It's like we get our hopes up with these mad influxes of players, then are reminded of our true niche, nerd, cult status as NS lovers once they bail (for whatever reason.)

    The timing is important, but any player that truly enjoys the game and realizes its potential will take a minute to browse the website or forum. It doesn't take long to realize how much the game has changed, for the worse but largely for the better, and I think most will stick with it after realizing this.
    ObraxisKwisatzHaderach
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Posts: 1,037
    This is, of course, great news, but I'd also like to hear about upcoming balance changes? The game is still a bit lacking in that area, and some elements currently being tested by Sewlek have much promise. I'd love to hear when we can expect to get the next round of BT changes.
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • WheeeeWheeee Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    UWE, we wouldn't have stuck around this long if we didn't like the product you put out, or how ambitious you are. However, we would very much like you to learn from your PR mistakes. We are now paying customers, and those of us that are still playing actually quite like the product that we have. Getting the rug pulled from under us with a surprise buggy beta patch can only lead to tears and frustration.

    Please, in the future, it doesn't take a whole lot of time to put together some announcements regarding upcoming betas/changes. Put it in the news feed. It's worth the time delay, because it will lead to less pissed-off players.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
    HughMrFangsNeoQuaker1
  • BensonBenson Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    What i am most glad about is that UWE considers the ammount of people experiencing crashes and bugs as unacceptable. (I'm not one of them thankfully)

    This means that they admit that the game is not where they want it to be, which means that the time has come to slow down on features, and begin to completely polish and optimize the game.

    From what I can see, there will be no more large game-breaking patches (like adding linux/DX11 support) and things will only improve from here on out.

    The fact that these fixes take time is unfortunate, but it is a fact. But at least UWE cares enough to keep working and improving the game, and not just say "well, MOST people aren't having issues, so its not a big deal".

    Hooray for good work ethics!
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
    HughAchillesSteveRockNeoQuaker1
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CASuper Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,779 admin
    Wheeee wrote: »
    , in the future...
    Gorgeous and Reinforced were special cases in which lots of things stay under wraps until release day, but this is definitely doable for future updates (like next week) and I'll make every effort to try and improve what you know before the update goes live.

    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
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    RedDogSyknikNeoQuaker1
  • Goliath VietnamGoliath Vietnam Members Join Date: 2013-01-07 Member: 178080Posts: 156 Fully active user
    No more "New content" like Call of Money : Bla bla please

    UWE team should take their time to rest , stay with family and have a meeting before rellease new patch or build version

    I think you guys too rush when think NS2 should competitive with other Multiplayer FPS on Steam ( Planet side 2 , TF2 , Counter Strike...)

    Take your time , and time will answer :))
    I have to say Goliath is very ......https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Cqp6tGh5zC8/T291GxqYspI/AAAAAAAAA-c/ZmeK7h-e1Sc/s396/hinh-dong-cuc-hai-09-02-2012.gif

    Signature images may be no bigger than 400x75 and 40Kb in size. - Angelusz
    Achilles
  • Z31TurboZ31Turbo Members Join Date: 2013-09-14 Member: 188206Posts: 1
    OMG was there just a hint about Gorge plushies coming out for the anniversary of NS2?! Please be so!
  • PopturePopture Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-22 Member: 172879Posts: 45
    I'm not currently experiencing any issues, am satisfied with NS2 and appreciate the communication. Thanks.
    KwisatzHaderachIronman
  • AchillesAchilles Members Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Posts: 73 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    No more "New content" like Call of Money : Bla bla please

    UWE team should take their time to rest , stay with family and have a meeting before rellease new patch or build version

    I think you guys too rush when think NS2 should competitive with other Multiplayer FPS on Steam ( Planet side 2 , TF2 , Counter Strike...)

    Take your time , and time will answer :))

    This man just became my favorite member.

    And already sold on that plushie. Goddamn would I buy one in a new york Minute. I capitalized, there.
  • kais_4kais_4 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157127Posts: 65
    I've had a thousand times worse experiences with so many other game developers and distributors. I love NS2 and have nothing but glowing things to say about UWE; yeah there are some bugs but given what they've achieved with the numbers they have, it's a bloody impressive effort!!

    Also, because we (Australia) graciously exported Hugh to UWE I'd kindly request that all marines be equipped with the Aussie flag... just because...
    IronmanMuckyMcFly
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