Aliens: Early game winners, complete utter failures late game.
MisterNubs
Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
Just experienced a game that reminded me a lot like NS1, and not in a good way. The game was great in the for the first 25-30 mins or so. Both sides were on equal footing, 3 bases each. Then we fall into the late game balancing blunder.
Marine tech is superior to Aliens. Armor upgrades, Weapon upgrades outclass what alien upgrades have to offer. Marines continue to upgrade (until max obviously), meaning they get stronger and tougher. Carapace is an one time upgrade that does piddly squat late game. Shade tech is garbage, hyper-mutation is useless. Besides carapace (and celerity a little), not a single upgrade helps Aliens in fighting. A LMG foot marine and a skulk should always be on equal footing, but that stops happening as the game progresses.
ARC spam. Literally 3 or 4 dozens arcs. They are absolutely one of the most frustrating thing in the game that, imo, takes absolutely no skill to use. It was completely asinine of an idea to give them mobility while still allowing them to shoot through walls. Onos can not even compare to the usefulness of ARCs as siege busters because they actually have to enter the Marine's base to do anything, and it won't be much against full tech marines. Is there ever going to be a limit to ARC numbers? Or are we going to see when this game goes live the marines are back to the NS1 model and just hold off long enough till they can mass ARCs and roll through the game again?
Couldn't even attack a base with the incredible amount of beacon spam, 4 or 5 observatories per room. We did a push with 3 onos and a couple gorges to try to take out a power node, which was a pain due to clipping. Power node went down and so did all 3 onos shortly after because fully tech marines melt them down like butter. Observatory spam is ridiculous. Am I missing it or wasn't Aliens suppose to get something that helps them teleport between hives?
Build speed/repair speed of Marine is ridiculous, while gorge healing/building speed is awful. Apparently cysts are going back to the res model? Does that mean power nodes will start costing res too to replace? Or is that just going to be a one-sided feature?
Before some ###### chirps in and says "mebbe ya liek, shouldn't haev let them have all dat rt duuuuurrr". Like I said earlier, the game was even- resource nodes and bases. This fiasco started happening late game, about 40 minutes or so. Once marines are fully tech, they can just spam ARCs. Their "iWin without even having to try" button.
But hell, all of this stuff has already been said before in other threads multiple times. Guess it just needs to be said again.
Marine tech is superior to Aliens. Armor upgrades, Weapon upgrades outclass what alien upgrades have to offer. Marines continue to upgrade (until max obviously), meaning they get stronger and tougher. Carapace is an one time upgrade that does piddly squat late game. Shade tech is garbage, hyper-mutation is useless. Besides carapace (and celerity a little), not a single upgrade helps Aliens in fighting. A LMG foot marine and a skulk should always be on equal footing, but that stops happening as the game progresses.
ARC spam. Literally 3 or 4 dozens arcs. They are absolutely one of the most frustrating thing in the game that, imo, takes absolutely no skill to use. It was completely asinine of an idea to give them mobility while still allowing them to shoot through walls. Onos can not even compare to the usefulness of ARCs as siege busters because they actually have to enter the Marine's base to do anything, and it won't be much against full tech marines. Is there ever going to be a limit to ARC numbers? Or are we going to see when this game goes live the marines are back to the NS1 model and just hold off long enough till they can mass ARCs and roll through the game again?
Couldn't even attack a base with the incredible amount of beacon spam, 4 or 5 observatories per room. We did a push with 3 onos and a couple gorges to try to take out a power node, which was a pain due to clipping. Power node went down and so did all 3 onos shortly after because fully tech marines melt them down like butter. Observatory spam is ridiculous. Am I missing it or wasn't Aliens suppose to get something that helps them teleport between hives?
Build speed/repair speed of Marine is ridiculous, while gorge healing/building speed is awful. Apparently cysts are going back to the res model? Does that mean power nodes will start costing res too to replace? Or is that just going to be a one-sided feature?
Before some ###### chirps in and says "mebbe ya liek, shouldn't haev let them have all dat rt duuuuurrr". Like I said earlier, the game was even- resource nodes and bases. This fiasco started happening late game, about 40 minutes or so. Once marines are fully tech, they can just spam ARCs. Their "iWin without even having to try" button.
But hell, all of this stuff has already been said before in other threads multiple times. Guess it just needs to be said again.
Comments
Marine tech is superior to Aliens. Armor upgrades, Weapon upgrades outclass what alien upgrades have to offer. Marines continue to upgrade (until max obviously), meaning they get stronger and tougher. Carapace is an one time upgrade that does piddly squat late game. Shade tech is garbage, hyper-mutation is useless. Besides carapace (and celerity a little), not a single upgrade helps Aliens in fighting. A LMG foot marine and a skulk should always be on equal footing, but that stops happening as the game progresses.
<b> An LMG foot marines and a Skulk should not always be on even footing, there's a massive power gap a few minutes into the game when Skulk gets carapace/leap. Carapace is by the way, very useful - Try playing without it. </b>
ARC spam. Literally 3 or 4 dozens arcs. They are absolutely one of the most frustrating thing in the game that, imo, takes absolutely no skill to use. It was completely asinine of an idea to give them mobility while still allowing them to shoot through walls. Onos can not even compare to the usefulness of ARCs as siege busters because they actually have to enter the Marine's base to do anything, and it won't be much against full tech marines. Is there ever going to be a limit to ARC numbers? Or are we going to see when this game goes live the marines are back to the NS1 model and just hold off long enough till they can mass ARCs and roll through the game again?
<b> Arguments could be made that the Onos takes absolutely no skill to play :) - As far as I'm concerned Bombard Whips are the equivalent to ARC's unfortunately they absolutely counter Whips when used properly, it's impossible to land a Cyst chain into a base when the area attack is so wide - Bombard Whips do also trash ARC trains, but ultimately ARC range is considerably longer and proper play will allow the ARCs to kill any Bombard Whips before they are a threat (ala. Siege Tanks vs. Spine Crawlers). An ARC limit of 4/5 would probably be good, yes. </b>
Couldn't even attack a base with the incredible amount of beacon spam, 4 or 5 observatories per room. We did a push with 3 onos and a couple gorges to try to take out a power node, which was a pain due to clipping. Power node went down and so did all 3 onos shortly after because fully tech marines melt them down like butter. Observatory spam is ridiculous. Am I missing it or wasn't Aliens suppose to get something that helps them teleport between hives?
<b> Honestly two Gorge is not gonna help more than two Onos in that situation (unless Marines target poorly), you need to be attacking with a full team as well - Unless the server was 12/12 you're missing a man or two. That said Onos rushing power nodes isn't the be all end all of end game strategy. </b>
Build speed/repair speed of Marine is ridiculous, while gorge healing/building speed is awful. Apparently cysts are going back to the res model? Does that mean power nodes will start costing res too to replace? Or is that just going to be a one-sided feature?
<b> I honestly don't know why they made it so you could weld whilst the building was taking damage - Well I do Bilebomb damage over time was annoying the balls off of people so they changed it. But, unfortunately that ruined it for every other situation where a building is taking damage.
I don't know about the cyst thing, sounds like a questionable change. </b>
Before some ###### chirps in and says "mebbe ya liek, shouldn't haev let them have all dat rt duuuuurrr". Like I said earlier, the game was even- resource nodes and bases. This fiasco started happening late game, about 40 minutes or so. Once marines are fully tech, they can just spam ARCs. Their "iWin without even having to try" button.
<b> This is always a valid argument, how many RT's did they have? Because 40 Minutes isn't that long - But, for the Marine comm to have 50 resources for three rooms just for observatories sounds ridiculously excessive. Marines lose 90% of the games where Aliens don't suffer massive RT/Tech harassment.
Three bases each this must of been Mineshaft - So I'll guess:
Aliens : Cave, Crush, Ore (5 RTs)
Marines : Refinery, Ops, Drill (6 RTs)
Taking it on faith that the game was even, why didn't there come a point where you hit Onos tech and took back Refinery Transfer?
It's easy to say you were in an unwinnable position, but honestly there were probably plenty of opportunities not to go there.
Imperfect players, imperfect teamwork, imperfect commander - Robotics Factory blocks on Mineshaft are annoying, but proper Gorge attrition play should keep their TRes down.
</b>
But hell, all of this stuff has already been said before in other threads multiple times. Guess it just needs to be said again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I say, Aliens need some way to temporarily disperse infestation for offensive whip deployment (similar to the overlord creep spread in SC2) so that they don't have to rely on cysts to use the whips. At the moment there is a huge disparity between the effectiveness of the anti-building units for each team.
Now there is the argument that you have to escort them to their position first, but this doesn't really endanger the marines whatsoever like building them on-site did for siege turrets. You had to cover marines while some did the work, without this you have all hands ready to unload on anything that gets near. There was never really a vulnerable moment for the marines or ARCs other than before they were built at the Robotics factory. Overall this makes for a fairly brainless undertaking other than getting all the marines to follow the ARCs.
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ARC trains cannot be fought when they number in the dozens.
Jetpacks cannot be taken down when they have L3 weapons and armour. NS1 fades could take them out, its not really feasible anymore.
Onos are devestating early game, but endgame die quickly from flamers and observation beacon spam.
Aliens do need some high level tech to balance the field endgame. Only reason they win so much currently is that aliens can reach their endgame tech much quicker than marines.
As for your conclusions, I think you are completely wrong. The problem as I see it is that the alien games is not as organised as the marine game, and when 3 Onos should rush the comm chair and end the game, they don't.
With ARCs being 15 res now, I only tend to see trains numbering 3 or 4. That is easy enough for a reasonable team to take down. I have had to fight and I have constructed trains in this number. The only time you see any more than that is if the marine team is dominating and that the comm sacrifices other upgrades just to get ARCs.
The real issue is that when aliens start to Onos, it is the beginning of the end.
The alien game is about infesting the map, growing and slowly taking over and pushing your lines forward. When the Onos comes out, this becomes very simple in that they can just hold important points on the map and they are basically impossible to take down.
Yes, you can take an Onos down. But it tends to be when it runs into the marine base and has 4+ marines firing at it. Or, it fights in open spaces. In corridors it is very difficult.
Lots of people Onos and think it is about 'rushing the base', which it can be with organisation. But the best trick is to sit in a tight corridor outside the marine base that prevents marines gaining access to large areas of the map. Then the commander can just infest up to the marine base before you finish them.
Has anyone else noticed in the recent build that you can basically predict within 5-10 minutes which team is going to win?
If you are worried about jetpacks and gls, have you seen a team with 3 semi-decent lerks on it? It isn't pleasant.
The alien game is basically secure at least 2 rts until you get an Onos and then slowly grind marines down until victory.
The marine game is in its basics is build and defend as many rts in the early game as possible, research PGs (let me point out that winning a game without PG's is basically impossible) and once you have jetpacks, GL rush each hive.
As long as you hit the alien extractors hard, it is a sure win.
your saying marines are to powerful at end game yet aliens are to powerful at the start? well the issue here is you didnt control what marines done in the early stages.
No marine team just live with one RT for the whole game, if you join a public you will always see lame aspects such as 200 arcs, or 10 onos at the 8 min mark.
The issue is not the game isnt balanced, its more along the lines of you need to exploit all aspects for the game from the second it starts.
What do you want from this game? A game that lasts 7 hours until everyone leaves the server.
Common guys, input something valid rather then "I LOST A GAME ITS UNFAIR"
If you have 4 tech points, you should be able to research some 'game ending' device/lifeform.
I've never seen that. Hell I've been on marine games where we had all upgrades and killed about 100 onos before our power finally went down for the 20th time and we succumbed to our lack of res and died off. I've yet to see a marine team pull back when we block them off at either side with onos and take out their res. I have however, seen marines win simply because they got a second base up REALLY early. I'm talking like 5-10 minutes they were in server and we were boned at that point because our team had 100 res and NO ONE went onos but me and another gorge defending repair room. I admit we deserved the defeat because we never listened to our comm about pushing into server, I would've gladly if I A. Wasn't gorging and B. Had gone onos earlier to prevent the ARC spam that came out of server. But a marine win is generally because aliens don't push with each other into one base at a time. Its a sense of divide and conquer for both sides, if you get two bases and they don't focus on one, you can sit back and turtle while you slowly push out else where. So in all, as aliens if you aren't aggressive and you turtle at the beginning then you're ######. Good alien teams hit their res hard with 2-3 skulks at each res tower you can find as soon as you find it. If you run by a res tower as a skulk it better be because 1. The game is almost over and you are doing an endgame rush with Onos and other lifeforms 2. It has their entire team around it 3. You are going to a hive to protect it from marines. Also Runteh there are check mates. They are called Onos, whip spam, ARC spam, and Exos if you have the res to get these, its check mate because the other team didn't stop you from getting it.
<!--quoteo(post=1942212:date=Jun 8 2012, 01:03 PM:name=CabooseFox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CabooseFox @ Jun 8 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also Runteh there are check mates. They are called Onos, whip spam, ARC spam, and Exos if you have the res to get these, its check mate because the other team didn't stop you from getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On all other accounts you are right.
3-3 JP marines have no match on the alien side because the aliens have no scaling. When alien lifeforms come out, carapace, regen, and sometimes celerity are the only things that really increases their power. It's not much compared to 3-3 and JPs.
The end game also typically devolves into cyst, crag, whip spam with mass onos (the least skill based lifeform in the game). Marines counter this by spamming arcs. So here you have JP 3-3 marines vs onos. Very little skill is involved on either side. And mass arcs vs mass alien static D. No skill involved for players when NPCs fight NPCs.
tl;dr end game is a low skill NPC zergfest with the least fun player vs player matchups present in the entire game (jps vs mass, replaceable onos).
Unfortunate consequence of drastically lowering the skill ceiling for the skulk, lerk and especially the fade.
I remember there was big problems originally where they would get hung up on map details.
But now they just noclip through everything.
I played a game where the Alien Commander posted 2 whips at each doorway to occupied territory.
This made it difficult to navigate but the justification was to fight the ARC trains.
When the trains came they just went through the whips.
The whips maybe got a couple shots at them when they first got into range.
So they go through whips crags onos .... nothing can block their movement for a moment so the can be destroyed prior to arriving.
Have the playtesters come up with a good counter to the ARC trains?
Possibly so, but I'm not sure how you'd effectively increase the skill cap on these guys in the current situation.
I'd like to see the cooldown on bite after leaping removed. Same with blinking and swiping. It would help a lot for aliens vs jetpacks.
<i>The more I think about this the more I worry that this entire idea of making the aliens maneuverable and redeploy-able is just going to make them early-game winners and late-game losers (which is how I always felt in NS1) but that's another matter..... </i>
During the late game, aliens being the "maneuverable" ones is gone, because the rooms are all locked down and the marines are phasing and beaconing all over the map.
I have no idea why marines even have those abilities if maneuverability is supposed to be an alien-side feature of the asymmetry. It allows them to pretty completely surpass aliens in a supposedly alien advantage.
I'd be interested to try playing a few games with the following changes:
no phase gates
no beacon
obs does not passively uncloak aliens
slight increase in cloak-walk speed
alien life forms all cost a lot more to evolve to (like... twice as much).
Or something along those lines that makes "harassment" a viable strategy in the late game, while leaving marines with the raw power advantage.
Maybe I'll learn how to mod one of these days and make that to try out, I bet those changes would be super easy.
- Build 209 is not the final version of the game. We don't have Exo, HMG, Tier 3 abilities, and various unlocks with Shade / Shift hives. I'm sure we'll be ###### about how those things are added when the time comes.
- Various things can and may be tweaked; the Lerk is an obvious example. I think jet packs are a bit too cheap at the moment and should cost a little bit more Pres. I find I am surviving a whole lot more with a 10-res jet pack than I am with a 15-res shotgun (which can and may also be tweaked).
- The skill levels on some pub matches where we are finding these comments arising is widely ranging. There are some players that practically win the game by themselves (K/D ratios like 19-1 should be a big indicator).
- Having three maps in total means that we are all learning the maps very well, to the point that we know putting a whip "there" instead of "there" means it will survive more. When there are more maps, I am hoping that will level the playing field a bit (at least until we all adjust to the new ones)...
<i>The more I think about this the more I worry that this entire idea of making the aliens maneuverable and redeploy-able is just going to make them early-game winners and late-game losers (which is how I always felt in NS1) but that's another matter..... </i>
During the late game, aliens being the "maneuverable" ones is gone, because the rooms are all locked down and the marines are phasing and beaconing all over the map.
I have no idea why marines even have those abilities if maneuverability is supposed to be an alien-side feature of the asymmetry. It allows them to pretty completely surpass aliens in a supposedly alien advantage.
I'd be interested to try playing a few games with the following changes:
<strike>no phase gates
no beacon</strike>
obs does not passively uncloak aliens
slight increase in cloak-walk speed.
Or something along those lines that makes "harassment" a viable strategy in the late game, while leaving marines with the raw power advantage.
Maybe I'll learn how to mod one of these days and make that to try out, I bet those changes would be super easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The beacon and phase-gates are something that should stay in. Phase-gates and the obs-tower allow marines to make pushes early and mid-game whilst still being able to keep the quick-rush against their commander. My gripe is how fast and almost spammable it can be (You can have moments where its' marines throwing everything at a hive, aliens are preoccupied and forced to defend while far-away stragglers go at the comm-room, where 3-5 marines can quickly destroy a hive compared to the single-skulk or lerk chewing at the comm-chair or power, phase-back and take out the threat, and then rinse and repeat onto another hive.) I really think the beacon should demand more power or take longer to transport units... possibly even throwing them into the comm-room one by one rather than mass-spawns.
As to the other two ideas; I'm beginning to support them. Obs-towers being able to uncloak both structures and spot the alien-upgrade makes camouflage an almost useless mechanic. What's the point of a Shade when being sneaky can be completely bypassed by a marine-commander who quickly spots the area with a scan and can also destroy it all with a few arcs on the other side of the wall and marines guarding them from a safe distance?
As to the other two ideas; I'm beginning to support them. Obs-towers being able to uncloak both structures and spot the alien-upgrade makes camouflage an almost useless mechanic. What's the point of a Shade when being sneaky can be completely bypassed by a marine-commander who quickly spots the area with a scan and can also destroy it all with a few arcs on the other side of the wall and marines guarding them from a safe distance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as getting rid of phase and beacon, I only was thinking it might be neat to try out as a mod, I wouldn't dream of suggesting for the actual game because 1.) I know the dev's would never do it and 2.) If they did take my suggestion I fear rabid fans would murder me, as both of those techs are generally well-liked by the community.
Camo is definitely rather useless though. I wouldn't mind scan continuing to uncloak things, but cloak walk speed is prohibitively slow. I have tried so many times to sneak into a well fortified area using cloak, but it never works, because you'll still be inching your way across the doorway around the time the first stray grenade flies down your throat.
Yeah jetpacks are immensely powerful. For 10 res, you multiply your survivability many times over.
Aliens spend 30 res on a lerk, which while good will get shot down if engaged in combat too long.
Marines spend 10 res on jetpack, and can dance around combat and be basically immune to everyone except lerks on the larger spaces. Only times they die is either 1) Stupid or 2) in tight spaces where other evolutions can get them or 3) A lerk bites them a few times.
Jetpacks weren't so much a problem in NS1 since fades could always get them with skill. Now thats not really possible.
Aliens spend 30 res on a lerk, which while good will get shot down if engaged in combat too long.
Marines spend 10 res on jetpack, and can dance around combat and be basically immune to everyone except lerks on the larger spaces. Only times they die is either 1) Stupid or 2) in tight spaces where other evolutions can get them or 3) A lerk bites them a few times.
Jetpacks weren't so much a problem in NS1 since fades could always get them with skill. Now thats not really possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS.
THIS.
AND THIS.
I remember reading Fades as not being the "super skulk" it was suppose to be in the dev FAQ or something, but it's getting ridiculous.
It's nearly impossible to hit jetpacks as a Fade with the current blink system.
As Tim says above, the only time Jetpacks are able to die is in tight quarters or they run out of fuel.
It's absolutely INFURIATING to play as a Fade against Jetpacks in NS2 because of this.
Infact, the skulk is way more formidable against Jetpacks than the Fades are.
Seriously guys, the Fade blink needs to be changed to combat Jetpacks in mid-air. It takes way to long to attack after a blink for it to be useful against Jetpacks.
Pretty much. Yeah.
Projectile spores were moderately effective