RPS -- Rock, Paper, Scissor, I'm assuming -- is the definition of hard counter. Rock, no matter the skill difference, will always lose to paper. They aren't needed to control tech because varying tech should be encouraged by beneficial synergy. IE 5 onos should be discouraged because 2 onos, 1 lerk, 1 gorge, 1 fade should be stronger. A mass tech should be considered similar to an all-in strategy. A risky move that if the opponent isn't ready for can win, but discouraged for longer gameplay.
You used an example in TF2 of the heavy versus the spy. That isn't a hard counter; that's a soft counter. The spy, depending on game sense, can own a lesser skilled heavy. The heavy can do the same given higher skill. Here you have game sense vs game sense. This is a skill vs skill battle. A TF2 match up that is more of a hard counter would be heavy versus sniper. There really isn't anything a heavy can do to fight a sniper. The sniper will always beat the heavy because the sniper has both mobility and range on his side. That's the core of what many competitive players are suggesting -- that fades and skulks (the main infantry fighting power of the alien team) should have a way to fight jetpacks. Currently, the skulks and fades are heavies and jps are snipers. There's no remotely fair way for skulks and fades to engage jps. Thus, the only alien units that can even fight jetpacks are lerks and gorges. Neither of which is a solely a direct combat unit, but more support or harassing units.
Skulks and fades both need the ability to combat jps, though jps would retain the upper hand if the delays were removed. It actually needs to be a battle instead of a shooting gallery. If you make lerks as the only offensive lifeform capable of fighting jps, then you force a mass lerk alien team to fight jetpacks. That's obviously very bad for gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any other suggestion besides leap and swipe delays?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remove Carapace from crag tech. Replace with a new ability. Possibly an ability that lowers damage taken while the alien still has armor by # percent? Get rid of the crag first hive pigeon hold
Remove hyper-mutation, the ability is bad. Replace with adrenaline.
Remove cloak. Possibly replace with a camouflage ability? Still cloaks while standing still, but makes them semi-translucent while moving (once translucent gets added to the game). Or an ability that makes them undetectable by observatories/Marine ESP.
Create scalability either through hive numbers or create a new structure "mutation chamber" that allows them to scale just like Marine's "arms lab". Carapace: C1 = 50% of current carapace, C2 = full effect of current carapace, C3 = 150% of current carapace Frenzy: *Increases attack speed* F1 #%, F2 #%, F3 #%
The invul on fade is not nerfed, its not even balanced yet tbh. It has been reduced from what it was but you will never be able to balance a class with that kind of ability, unless you make it an overly frustrating ability to use. As far as i can tell from looking at the code and playing the class when you are in blink you take extremely reduced damage always (your energy divided by your maximum energy). There does not appear to be much of any 'fade' time initially, the only delays i see on fade are the visual fade in/out (which has no effect on damage reduction), the .25 second swipe delay and the .5 or so second delay between blinks. You are visible while in blink yes but honestly thats meaningless as you are near-invulnerable. The blink duration has a maximum time, but you can exit at any time before that time. This allows you to blink straight at a marine, wait for his shot, then exit blink and swipe, and re-enter blink and take maybe 10 damage.
I think most people that play fade competitively would agree with me, if you are playing decently well that day its pretty easy to fade once and never die, even against teams that are close/equal even better skillwise. Fade is a lot less effective now that jps are pretty common so you are seeing less play with them.
<!--quoteo(post=1942763:date=Jun 11 2012, 09:10 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 11 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The invulnerability mechanic on the fade is already severely nerfed - its fixed time, and you take damage for the first 1.7 seconds, and you have a cloud that follows you around showing where you are going [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: what xDragon said.
Is that in 210 ? I had a look but I only found this energy based reduction :
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
@Gorgeous: I guess that we completely agree, then, save for the definition of RPS in game design. (as i said, i don't believe in implementing hard counters, and while the physical hand to hand version of RPS is hard countering, RPS is used as an example in game design often - without being so. TF2 being one of them)
@Misternubs: Reworking of upgrades is in the works, with Carapace in the spotlight of concern from everyone. Literally everything you mentioned is being worked on in some degree or another. :) (except for gorge healing being buffed)
@xDragon: I dont know how accurate your join date is to when you've been playing NS2, but trust me the fade is definitely nerfed from where it started :) There is a "fade period" where he is vulnerable to damage that is supposed to last for roughly ~1.4-1.7 seconds,(see bold) and like i said whenever he is low on energy as well. Don't know the numbers exactly, or whether what you and Yuuki found explain it - <b>so I will get back to you guys with a clear answer asap.</b>
But, just fyi, the idea being, invulnerability for the most part occurs when A) in transit/travel and B)when he is not greedy and not low on energy. <i>This means he is not typically invulnerable during combat.</i> This is done by the speed in which he is typically able to exit a room - and in the timeframe to do so he is left somewhat vulnerable and visible. The behavior of "Blink in - swipe -blink out" is entirely intentional and is his role as the "Surgical Striker".. whether or not this works for competitive reasons is up for debate and belongs in another thread. :)
So is that it? Will removing leap -> bite delay and Blink -> swipe delay solve dealing with JPers, is that good enough?
<!--quoteo(post=1942801:date=Jun 11 2012, 09:03 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 11 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So is that it? Will removing leap -> bite delay and Blink -> swipe delay solve dealing with JPers, is that good enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a start, considering it'd be an easier approach than to deal with "upgrades" or "abilities" that may not solve the problem before we even touch on the easy part (that being removing the attack delay)
Ironhorse, when you quote someone please make sure that his original message is intact. What you quoted from me is just a small part of a bigger message.
I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all. since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just answered your own question? lol Also, see my previous post in this thread. There is a solution which includes removing the delay after blink, but it would require a large delay in between swipes, or needing many more swipes to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Above is your answer after you modified my quote, but this was my original post: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all.
Now the Delay was added as a fix(patch?) for the fade blink, since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe. I think it would be a better idea to simply to make fade blink work without the need of any delay instead of keep adding patches to it to fix its problem. The issue is how the blink works, the focus point should be there.
The problems are not always visual on the surface, its important to dig into whats truly causing the problems before working on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have already seen many solutions where simply adjusting the fade blink will remove the need of delay, that was my point. Instead of focusing on the delay we should be focused on the reason why it was added, which is the fade blink. It needs to be adjusted. Currently its way to easy to abuse, a careful fade never has to go into risky situations without damaging his performance. The only time fades die is because they get bored of playing careful or gets greedy. When skilled players are playing their A game you won't be able to kill that fade til they do a mistake and manage to burst it down instantly. Smart fades will keep their energy always above 50% and will escape with ease by simply pressing the right mouse button. Also the fades don't even have to attack the marines, they only have to blink in and force the marines to waste their ammo, the skulks/other fades can take care of the rest.
<!--quoteo(post=1942801:date=Jun 12 2012, 03:03 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 12 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So is that it? Will removing leap -> bite delay and Blink -> swipe delay solve dealing with JPers, is that good enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one knows. You gotta playtest these things to really find out.
I don't really understand why the fade is invincible for any time period. It's just a really bad mechanic. I also think the current blink movement is rubbish. You can basically no clip around the map. There is little movement skill.
Judging my post by my join date... really? How is he NOT invulnerable during combat? If you blink straight into someone your basically not invulnerable for .25 seconds before swiping, then you can blink again HALF a second after exiting and be invulnerable (basically) again.
Like I said, I have seen nothing in the code regarding the 1.4 to 1.7 second 'fade' time, maybe if you can provide proof of that it will change my opinion slightly, but honestly if you can exit blink whenever you want, how can there be 1.4 to 1.7 seconds of fade time, unless its after blink already technically ended and you swiped. And if he is not invulnerable IN combat, then why is it even needed? Clearly your not going to be taking damage outside of combat...
And if I judged by your join date, I had been playing NS1 for nearly 7.5 years before you joined, and have been playing NS2 since the first build of the alpha on July 26th, but I dont want this discussion to turn into a debate over that, its over the fade currently.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<i>Oh my goodness</i>.. y'all need to stop reading into things and assuming i'm such a terrible guy! I mean, i know there's limitation to text, but come on.. I'm starting to feel like you guys are on a witch hunt.. :-/
Grissi: I was being very literal for the sake of humor, hence the "lol", and i thought that the second part of my response demonstrated that i fully understood your post??
xDragon: No, i am not "judging your post" by your join date ...::facepalm::..i don't even know how you interpreted it that way considering the amount i addressed and responded to? I have no idea how long you've been following this development, which is why i said so, which is pretty relevant to my opinion of that blink has been severely nerfed compared to how it was first implemented.
On that note, i feel as if there's no room for discussion anymore without someone seeking some form of confrontation --<i>and that's not a community i want to be a part of</i>. Thank you for the calm, civil, well thought out discussions devoid of emotion, when they occurred. I'm done for a while, adios guys.
I stated that the fade had been reduced from what it was, which is why I thought the comments on my join date was an attempt to discredit my opinion. Personally I have no issue with any players here (except maybe Grissi :D) but I will defend my opinions when someone trys to call them out as irrevalent.
I could go further into this but honestly I feel its just taking away from what WAS a honest discussion regarding the fade, and skulk vs jetpacks.
My basic comments were stated somewhat earlier but I will try to summerize to get this back on topic:
Changes should be made to make the fade more usefull throughout the game, which i think some of which starts with the blink mechanic. Early game it always the fade to close the distance with little risk, and late game his lowish HP means that he can insta die to 2 shotguns with an unlucky blink. My comments on how to fix the blink vary as I have heard some decent ideas, but I do think the best way forward is for blink to be made more of a momentum impulse like the old fade blink, leaving the visual effects however. From there the damage reduction could be removed, and the fade given 50/50 HP/Amour back. Then the swipe delay could be removed.
Beyond that for the skulk the delay could be removed after leap, and IMO leap could give you a little more momentum on use, however currently it seems like there are some issues with leap as sometimes you gain decent speed and othertimes you gain little speed.
Am I understanding this correctly here? Does "self.fadeAbilityEnergy" in that piece of code mean the normal lifeform energy that is displayed in the right side of the hud? Is it really so that blink "invulnerability" doesn't work as well if you are low on energy? I mean, sure, there has seemed to be something fishy in some of my fade deaths, but I've always put them down to lag and hits registering late or something...
<!--quoteo(post=1942817:date=Jun 12 2012, 04:16 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 12 2012, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then you can blink again HALF a second after exiting and be invulnerable (basically) again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always though the 0.5 delay was between blink starts and not between blink end and blink start, so if you blink longer than 0.5 you can blink again immediately, I could be wrong though.
@Squirreli, yeah that's right, the less energy you have the more damage you're supposed to take, but I'm not totally sure it's working, because there is another function that says you can't take any damage while blinking, that's an old version from NS2doc but I think I saw it yesterday in the current code :
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Fade:GetCanTakeDamageOverride() return Alien.GetCanTakeDamageOverride(self) and not self:GetIsBlinking() end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--quoteo(post=1942823:date=Jun 11 2012, 08:58 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 11 2012, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I stated that the fade had been reduced from what it was, which is why I thought the comments on my join date was an attempt to discredit my opinion. Personally I have no issue with any players here (except maybe Grissi :D) but I will defend my opinions when someone trys to call them out as irrevalent.
I could go further into this but honestly I feel its just taking away from what WAS a honest discussion regarding the fade, and skulk vs jetpacks.
My basic comments were stated somewhat earlier but I will try to summerize to get this back on topic:
Changes should be made to make the fade more usefull throughout the game, which i think some of which starts with the blink mechanic. Early game it always the fade to close the distance with little risk, and late game his lowish HP means that he can insta die to 2 shotguns with an unlucky blink. My comments on how to fix the blink vary as I have heard some decent ideas, but I do think the best way forward is for blink to be made more of a momentum impulse like the old fade blink, leaving the visual effects however. From there the damage reduction could be removed, and the fade given 50/50 HP/Amour back. Then the swipe delay could be removed.
Beyond that for the skulk the delay could be removed after leap, and IMO leap could give you a little more momentum on use, however currently it seems like there are some issues with leap as sometimes you gain decent speed and othertimes you gain little speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds terrible. I don’t know how you deal with all of these problems.
Id sure like to see a whole patch dedicated to marine and alien movement. Skulk and marine especially since both are atrocious. Marine feels like they can barely move...
<!--quoteo(post=1942460:date=Jun 9 2012, 09:34 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 9 2012, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The third idea that I have heard was to make fade blink work more like NS1, where its more of a momentum impulse then anything else. The current effects could remain and even just be slightly speed-up, which would still give the fade a small visual look of fading in and out, but he would be unable to stay in blink nearly as long as the energy drain would be per tick of blink. This would also involve the removal of the damage reduction system on blink, and removal of shadow step.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So far, this idea strikes as the most sensible.
Invincibility and invisibility are horrendously difficult mechanics to balance, especially in the current manifestation of blink. I would be thrilled to get rid of any kind of damage reduction and return its survivability conditions back to speed, good movement, smart timings and lines of attacks. Not only are these more fun for both the fade and the marines, but they are useful at all stages of the game. Invincibility, by comparison, is hard to steer away from OP in early game and UP in the late game. Removing invincibility also does away with all the arbitrary mechanics that have been implemented in an attempt to make it viable - maximum blink durations, anti-spam delays and swipe delays (all of which are undesirable necessities for the current blink) become satisfyingly redundant.
The hardliner in me thinks that, once we've removed invincibility and its motley crew of frustrating mechanics, then we might as well remove the cloud-fade-state too because it would no longer serve its purpose of indicating a damage reduction state. However, that's a minor concern in the grand scheme of things and I'm just glad that we can see the fade at all.
Yuuki - I believe you are correct now that i think about it regarding blink delay. The damage dealt to fade should in blink should be directly related to your energy, if you have 90 energy you would take 10% damage. That change was sorta done gradually (it used to be only when below 60 energy, then just complete invulnerability) so that may be why it is sort of unknown to people.
<!--quoteo(post=1942877:date=Jun 12 2012, 04:27 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 12 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yuuki - I believe you are correct now that i think about it regarding blink delay. The damage dealt to fade should in blink should be directly related to your energy, if you have 90 energy you would take 10% damage. That change was sorta done gradually (it used to be only when below 60 energy, then just complete invulnerability) so that may be why it is sort of unknown to people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's supposed to be conveyed by your view model AFAIK, if it's fully transparent you're invulnerable or barely vulnerable, but since with the blue shader and the fact that you're probably not going to focus on that it's hard to notice. But yeah, basically if you're low on energy you receive more damage (and the view model is solid I think).
The changelog didn't explain this either which contributes to the confusion. It said something like the fade was able to be damaged while starting/ending blink, instead of describing how it really works.
<!--quoteo(post=1942877:date=Jun 12 2012, 10:27 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 12 2012, 10:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yuuki - I believe you are correct now that i think about it regarding blink delay. The damage dealt to fade should in blink should be directly related to your energy, if you have 90 energy you would take 10% damage. That change was sorta done gradually (it used to be only when below 60 energy, then just complete invulnerability) so that may be why it is sort of unknown to people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't agree with this, I think damage should just be damage. Energy management is something that is for the fade to master, it will only limit the fade if he has to run away even with 50% energy left to keep his damage reduction. Keep it simple an consistent.
Energy based damage reduction is as obscure as possible, the fact that we need to read the code to even know about it tells everything about it.
Something I didn't knew also (I don't play fade much...) is that blink is a constant energy cost now: a short blink cost as much as a long one. So the damage is reduced of about 80% on blink-in and 60%-50% on blink out, if you start with full energy.
So as a fade, don't engage when you have low energy, even if you have enough for blinking in and out. Wait for your energy to go up, it's a super strong armor.
As marines, don't shoot incoming fades, because you will deal very low damage, keep you ammo to shoot fades that are blinking out. Always shoot fades that are blinking out.
<!--quoteo(post=1942892:date=Jun 12 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 12 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Energy based damage reduction is as obscure as possible, the fact that we need to read the code to even know about it tells everything about it.
Something I didn't knew also (I don't play fade much...) is that blink is a constant energy cost now: a short blink cost as much as a long one. So the damage is reduced of about 80% on blink-in and 60%-50% on blink out, if you start with full energy.
So as a fade, don't engage when you have low energy, even if you have enough for blinking in and out. Wait for your energy to go up, it's a super strong armor.
As marines, don't shoot incoming fades, because you will deal very low damage, keep you ammo to shoot fades that are blinking out. Always shoot fades that are blinking out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That last comment is true ,,don't shoot incoming fades, because you will deal very low damage". This is also the problem with fades. You can engage marines with no risk at all. The advantage that marine have is range attack, giving the fade instant chance to get into melee gives the fade to much control of the battle.
I very much dislike the fact that my goal as a marine is to do only enough damage that a fade is forced to retreat but conserve enough ammunition to do most of my damage while the fade is leaving. The embedded drawback to overshooting aliens is really quite damaging. If I see a target, I should want to shoot it 99% of the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1942892:date=Jun 12 2012, 05:37 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 12 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Energy based damage reduction is as obscure as possible, the fact that we need to read the code to even know about it tells everything about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Invulnerability coupled with lag and the very high interpolation (innate 150ms delay on everything) leads to very murky gameplay. A player never knows if he actually hit that fade for 100% of his damage or if the latency compensation meant that the fade was blinking before he hit. It's very frustrating. The invulnerability as a whole should be removed.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro--> I'm confused why this variable "blink armor" is still around, the fade doesn't need it at all. The near-invisibility, speed and flight is more than enough to give the fade currently way more of an advantage than NS1 fades. Excluding JPs but the post-blink delay on swipe is all that is keeping that from happening. I would think just allowing normal damage at any point in a blink would be at least a step in the right direction for making balance of it easier and proper use of it more skill intensive. One less needless variable to figure into the others either way. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The only other point I have to make is if the damage reduction were to be removed, then the HP/Armor of the fade would need to be increased, especially since the shotgun will do normal damage. If the fade got 50 more hp and armor vs the normal damage shotgun it should work reasonably well, as that should allow the fade to survive 2 full damage shots with about 8 HP, assuming 10 pellets for 17 damage each with weapons 3.
And this one (blink invulnerabilitys dependency on energy) was hidden really really well. Fading is what I mostly do as aliens and I had no idea this stuff was going on with the fade!
<!--quoteo(post=1942922:date=Jun 12 2012, 08:17 PM:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine @ Jun 12 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm confused why this variable "blink armor" is still around, the fade doesn't need it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a bonus, it's a nerf. Previously it just become invincible the moment you started blinking.
Comments
You used an example in TF2 of the heavy versus the spy. That isn't a hard counter; that's a soft counter. The spy, depending on game sense, can own a lesser skilled heavy. The heavy can do the same given higher skill. Here you have game sense vs game sense. This is a skill vs skill battle. A TF2 match up that is more of a hard counter would be heavy versus sniper. There really isn't anything a heavy can do to fight a sniper. The sniper will always beat the heavy because the sniper has both mobility and range on his side. That's the core of what many competitive players are suggesting -- that fades and skulks (the main infantry fighting power of the alien team) should have a way to fight jetpacks. Currently, the skulks and fades are heavies and jps are snipers. There's no remotely fair way for skulks and fades to engage jps. Thus, the only alien units that can even fight jetpacks are lerks and gorges. Neither of which is a solely a direct combat unit, but more support or harassing units.
Skulks and fades both need the ability to combat jps, though jps would retain the upper hand if the delays were removed. It actually needs to be a battle instead of a shooting gallery. If you make lerks as the only offensive lifeform capable of fighting jps, then you force a mass lerk alien team to fight jetpacks. That's obviously very bad for gameplay.
Remove Carapace from crag tech. Replace with a new ability. Possibly an ability that lowers damage taken while the alien still has armor by # percent? Get rid of the crag first hive pigeon hold
Remove hyper-mutation, the ability is bad. Replace with adrenaline.
Remove cloak. Possibly replace with a camouflage ability? Still cloaks while standing still, but makes them semi-translucent while moving (once translucent gets added to the game). Or an ability that makes them undetectable by observatories/Marine ESP.
Create scalability either through hive numbers or create a new structure "mutation chamber" that allows them to scale just like Marine's "arms lab".
Carapace: C1 = 50% of current carapace, C2 = full effect of current carapace, C3 = 150% of current carapace
Frenzy: *Increases attack speed* F1 #%, F2 #%, F3 #%
Buff gorge healing.
I think most people that play fade competitively would agree with me, if you are playing decently well that day its pretty easy to fade once and never die, even against teams that are close/equal even better skillwise. Fade is a lot less effective now that jps are pretty common so you are seeing less play with them.
Edit: what xDragon said.
Is that in 210 ? I had a look but I only found this energy based reduction :
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Fade:ComputeDamageOverride(attacker, damage, damageType, time)
damage = Alien.ComputeDamageOverride(self, attacker, damage, damageType, time)
// reduce damage in blink
if self:GetIsBlinking() then
local damageFraction = 1 - self.fadeAbilityEnergy/100
damage = damage * damageFraction
end
damage = damage - self:GetHideArmorAmount()
damage = ConditionalValue(damage >= 0, damage, 0)
return damage
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
@Misternubs: Reworking of upgrades is in the works, with Carapace in the spotlight of concern from everyone. Literally everything you mentioned is being worked on in some degree or another. :)
(except for gorge healing being buffed)
@xDragon: I dont know how accurate your join date is to when you've been playing NS2, but trust me the fade is definitely nerfed from where it started :) There is a "fade period" where he is vulnerable to damage that is supposed to last for roughly ~1.4-1.7 seconds,(see bold) and like i said whenever he is low on energy as well. Don't know the numbers exactly, or whether what you and Yuuki found explain it - <b>so I will get back to you guys with a clear answer asap.</b>
But, just fyi, the idea being, invulnerability for the most part occurs when A) in transit/travel and B)when he is not greedy and not low on energy. <i>This means he is not typically invulnerable during combat.</i> This is done by the speed in which he is typically able to exit a room - and in the timeframe to do so he is left somewhat vulnerable and visible. The behavior of "Blink in - swipe -blink out" is entirely intentional and is his role as the "Surgical Striker".. whether or not this works for competitive reasons is up for debate and belongs in another thread. :)
So is that it? Will removing leap -> bite delay and Blink -> swipe delay solve dealing with JPers, is that good enough?
It's a start, considering it'd be an easier approach than to deal with "upgrades" or "abilities" that may not solve the problem before we even touch on the easy part (that being removing the attack delay)
<!--quoteo(post=1942674:date=Jun 11 2012, 03:17 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 11 2012, 03:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all.
since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just answered your own question? lol
Also, see my previous post in this thread. There is a solution which includes removing the delay after blink, but it would require a large delay in between swipes, or needing many more swipes to kill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Above is your answer after you modified my quote, but this was my original post:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all.
Now the Delay was added as a fix(patch?) for the fade blink, since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe. I think it would be a better idea to simply to make fade blink work without the need of any delay instead of keep adding patches to it to fix its problem. The issue is how the blink works, the focus point should be there.
The problems are not always visual on the surface, its important to dig into whats truly causing the problems before working on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have already seen many solutions where simply adjusting the fade blink will remove the need of delay, that was my point. Instead of focusing on the delay we should be focused on the reason why it was added, which is the fade blink. It needs to be adjusted.
Currently its way to easy to abuse, a careful fade never has to go into risky situations without damaging his performance. The only time fades die is because they get bored of playing careful or gets greedy. When skilled players are playing their A game you won't be able to kill that fade til they do a mistake and manage to burst it down instantly. Smart fades will keep their energy always above 50% and will escape with ease by simply pressing the right mouse button.
Also the fades don't even have to attack the marines, they only have to blink in and force the marines to waste their ammo, the skulks/other fades can take care of the rest.
No one knows. You gotta playtest these things to really find out.
I don't really understand why the fade is invincible for any time period. It's just a really bad mechanic. I also think the current blink movement is rubbish. You can basically no clip around the map. There is little movement skill.
How is he NOT invulnerable during combat? If you blink straight into someone your basically not invulnerable for .25 seconds before swiping, then you can blink again HALF a second after exiting and be invulnerable (basically) again.
Like I said, I have seen nothing in the code regarding the 1.4 to 1.7 second 'fade' time, maybe if you can provide proof of that it will change my opinion slightly, but honestly if you can exit blink whenever you want, how can there be 1.4 to 1.7 seconds of fade time, unless its after blink already technically ended and you swiped. And if he is not invulnerable IN combat, then why is it even needed? Clearly your not going to be taking damage outside of combat...
And if I judged by your join date, I had been playing NS1 for nearly 7.5 years before you joined, and have been playing NS2 since the first build of the alpha on July 26th, but I dont want this discussion to turn into a debate over that, its over the fade currently.
Grissi: I was being very literal for the sake of humor, hence the "lol", and i thought that the second part of my response demonstrated that i fully understood your post??
xDragon: No, i am not "judging your post" by your join date ...::facepalm::..i don't even know how you interpreted it that way considering the amount i addressed and responded to? I have no idea how long you've been following this development, which is why i said so, which is pretty relevant to my opinion of that blink has been severely nerfed compared to how it was first implemented.
On that note, i feel as if there's no room for discussion anymore without someone seeking some form of confrontation --<i>and that's not a community i want to be a part of</i>.
Thank you for the calm, civil, well thought out discussions devoid of emotion, when they occurred.
I'm done for a while, adios guys.
I could go further into this but honestly I feel its just taking away from what WAS a honest discussion regarding the fade, and skulk vs jetpacks.
My basic comments were stated somewhat earlier but I will try to summerize to get this back on topic:
Changes should be made to make the fade more usefull throughout the game, which i think some of which starts with the blink mechanic. Early game it always the fade to close the distance with little risk, and late game his lowish HP means that he can insta die to 2 shotguns with an unlucky blink. My comments on how to fix the blink vary as I have heard some decent ideas, but I do think the best way forward is for blink to be made more of a momentum impulse like the old fade blink, leaving the visual effects however. From there the damage reduction could be removed, and the fade given 50/50 HP/Amour back. Then the swipe delay could be removed.
Beyond that for the skulk the delay could be removed after leap, and IMO leap could give you a little more momentum on use, however currently it seems like there are some issues with leap as sometimes you gain decent speed and othertimes you gain little speed.
I always though the 0.5 delay was between blink starts and not between blink end and blink start, so if you
blink longer than 0.5 you can blink again immediately, I could be wrong though.
@Squirreli, yeah that's right, the less energy you have the more damage you're supposed to take, but
I'm not totally sure it's working, because there is another function that says you can't take any damage
while blinking, that's an old version from NS2doc but I think I saw it yesterday in the current code :
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Fade:GetCanTakeDamageOverride()
return Alien.GetCanTakeDamageOverride(self) and not self:GetIsBlinking()
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
I could go further into this but honestly I feel its just taking away from what WAS a honest discussion regarding the fade, and skulk vs jetpacks.
My basic comments were stated somewhat earlier but I will try to summerize to get this back on topic:
Changes should be made to make the fade more usefull throughout the game, which i think some of which starts with the blink mechanic. Early game it always the fade to close the distance with little risk, and late game his lowish HP means that he can insta die to 2 shotguns with an unlucky blink. My comments on how to fix the blink vary as I have heard some decent ideas, but I do think the best way forward is for blink to be made more of a momentum impulse like the old fade blink, leaving the visual effects however. From there the damage reduction could be removed, and the fade given 50/50 HP/Amour back. Then the swipe delay could be removed.
Beyond that for the skulk the delay could be removed after leap, and IMO leap could give you a little more momentum on use, however currently it seems like there are some issues with leap as sometimes you gain decent speed and othertimes you gain little speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds terrible. I don’t know how you deal with all of these problems.
So far, this idea strikes as the most sensible.
Invincibility and invisibility are horrendously difficult mechanics to balance, especially in the current manifestation of blink. I would be thrilled to get rid of any kind of damage reduction and return its survivability conditions back to speed, good movement, smart timings and lines of attacks. Not only are these more fun for both the fade and the marines, but they are useful at all stages of the game. Invincibility, by comparison, is hard to steer away from OP in early game and UP in the late game. Removing invincibility also does away with all the arbitrary mechanics that have been implemented in an attempt to make it viable - maximum blink durations, anti-spam delays and swipe delays (all of which are undesirable necessities for the current blink) become satisfyingly redundant.
The hardliner in me thinks that, once we've removed invincibility and its motley crew of frustrating mechanics, then we might as well remove the cloud-fade-state too because it would no longer serve its purpose of indicating a damage reduction state. However, that's a minor concern in the grand scheme of things and I'm just glad that we can see the fade at all.
The damage dealt to fade should in blink should be directly related to your energy, if you have 90 energy you would take 10% damage. That change was sorta done gradually (it used to be only when below 60 energy, then just complete invulnerability) so that may be why it is sort of unknown to people.
The damage dealt to fade should in blink should be directly related to your energy, if you have 90 energy you would take 10% damage. That change was sorta done gradually (it used to be only when below 60 energy, then just complete invulnerability) so that may be why it is sort of unknown to people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's supposed to be conveyed by your view model AFAIK, if it's fully transparent you're invulnerable or barely vulnerable, but since with the blue shader and the fact that you're probably not going to focus on that it's hard to notice. But yeah, basically if you're low on energy you receive more damage (and the view model is solid I think).
The changelog didn't explain this either which contributes to the confusion. It said something like the fade was able to be damaged while starting/ending blink, instead of describing how it really works.
The damage dealt to fade should in blink should be directly related to your energy, if you have 90 energy you would take 10% damage. That change was sorta done gradually (it used to be only when below 60 energy, then just complete invulnerability) so that may be why it is sort of unknown to people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't agree with this, I think damage should just be damage. Energy management is something that is for the fade to master, it will only limit the fade if he has to run away even with 50% energy left to keep his damage reduction.
Keep it simple an consistent.
Something I didn't knew also (I don't play fade much...) is that blink is a constant energy cost now: a short blink cost as much as a long one. So the damage is reduced of about 80% on blink-in and 60%-50% on blink out, if you start with full energy.
So as a fade, don't engage when you have low energy, even if you have enough for blinking in and out. Wait for your energy to go up, it's a super strong armor.
As marines, don't shoot incoming fades, because you will deal very low damage, keep you ammo to shoot fades that are blinking out. Always shoot fades that are blinking out.
Something I didn't knew also (I don't play fade much...) is that blink is a constant energy cost now: a short blink cost as much as a long one. So the damage is reduced of about 80% on blink-in and 60%-50% on blink out, if you start with full energy.
So as a fade, don't engage when you have low energy, even if you have enough for blinking in and out. Wait for your energy to go up, it's a super strong armor.
As marines, don't shoot incoming fades, because you will deal very low damage, keep you ammo to shoot fades that are blinking out. Always shoot fades that are blinking out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That last comment is true ,,don't shoot incoming fades, because you will deal very low damage". This is also the problem with fades. You can engage marines with no risk at all.
The advantage that marine have is range attack, giving the fade instant chance to get into melee gives the fade to much control of the battle.
Hidden numbers....hidden numbers everywhere.
One less needless variable to figure into the others either way. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
And this one (blink invulnerabilitys dependency on energy) was hidden really really well. Fading is what I mostly do as aliens and I had no idea this stuff was going on with the fade!
It's not a bonus, it's a nerf. Previously it just become invincible the moment you started blinking.
Will Exo and Exo weapons be of any use, you think?