<!--quoteo(post=1942978:date=Jun 13 2012, 02:01 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 13 2012, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a bonus, it's a nerf. Previously it just become invincible the moment you started blinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we can all agree that it's not very intuitive. I remember when I found out I went back and read the patch notes and the explanation was nothing like the real implementation.
<!--quoteo(post=1942988:date=Jun 13 2012, 03:27 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 13 2012, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will Exo and Exo weapons be of any use, you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it is any way like in NS1 ONOS vs Exo/jetpack resulted in many long lasting battles.
<!--quoteo(post=1943016:date=Jun 12 2012, 11:33 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Jun 12 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We just need a way to stop people from going Onos early game and make them realise that going something else is a better option... but how?
To be honest, I don't know why they won't add in Hive/Command Station Tiers again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it meant that effectively losing 1 hive/station was sudden death. You lost a tier while the enemy stayed ahead, making it much harder to do anything.
The fact that hives except for your main hive are rather meaningless is one of the biggest problems with midgame play. The aliens can sit comfortably with just RTs until they get onos and fades out. I miss the aggressive battles at a secondary hive.
I'd really like to see some things (perhaps tier 2 abilities -- leap, blink, stomp) tied to second hive and research. That way a turtling alien team can still get out higher lifeforms, but they wouldn't be as powerful as an alien team playing a balanced strategy. Hive expansions should be encouraged, but right now they're something only done in the safety of onos and fully upgraded fades/skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1943107:date=Jun 13 2012, 10:03 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would suck. You lose hive and then you don't have leap or blink and they have JP, gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The game would end pretty quickly that way, instead of boring end game trying to pick out the last hive. Marines would overpower the aliens pretty quickly if they don't have their tier 2 abilities.
And a better question would be, why would you allow the marines to take down your 2nd hive?
<!--quoteo(post=1943107:date=Jun 13 2012, 10:03 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would suck. You lose hive and then you don't have leap or blink and they have JP, gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's part of the point... To give value to second hives. Right now you lose a hive and if it's not your primary one then it doesn't really matter.
Perhaps each hive should have tier 2 ability slots. You can only have 2-3 per hive. Means every hive is important and has the potential to knock the team back (but not completely).
It would probably require a rethinking of tier 2 prices if they could be destroyed though. Leap and spikes should be a bit cheaper. Bilebomb, blink and stomp are too powerful to be cheaper.
I think thats one of the key reasons why games drag on for so long.. the aliens always have tier 2 abilities once researched even if they loose the mature hive... and marines currently spawn with arguably the best anti lifeform weapon... they do need to have progression to the upgrades as the game goes on.. where the marines should start to loose if the aliens get multiple fades/onos and they have no shotguns (or exos).
It was like that in previous builds and it just led to every game playing the same way. If the marines killed the hive then they win and if they don't they lose. The whole game is decided on this one event. Why should the aliens need to expand to unlock tech while the marines don't? Losing a second CC doesn't have much consequences either...
TimMc's idea could be a better way to try it I guess.
My main problem with it is that the tier 2 abilities are so powerful that they completely change the game. It's not like they are just a small improvement. It means that losing the hive puts you at a very big disadvantage in combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1943152:date=Jun 13 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was like that in previous builds and it just led to every game playing the same way. If the marines killed the hive then they win and if they don't they lose. The whole game is decided on this one event. Why should the aliens need to expand to unlock tech while the marines don't? Losing a second CC doesn't have much consequences either...
TimMc's idea could be a better way to try it I guess.
My main problem with it is that the tier 2 abilities are so powerful that they completely change the game. It's not like they are just a small improvement. It means that losing the hive puts you at a very big disadvantage in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of the marines not needing more than 1 CC, any ideas on what could be divided up to force them to build multiple chairs?
The big problem with marines is that despite having 1 CC, they can hold off the aliens for as long as they want once bunkered down. The only reason marines ever build multiple CC is to avoid losing immediately if the aliens organise a proper onos rush.
I cannot think of an easy solution that would not heavily gimp the marine team.
1) Tie CCs to robotics factories or proto labs as a hard limit. Force proto labs to be specialised to jetpack or exosuit. First CC gets robotics factory. Means marine team needs a second CC for a protolab, 3 CCs if they want all protolab tech.
2) Move tech to the CC as an upgrade, and have upgrade slots as I suggested. Need 3 CC for level 3 weapons? Or perhaps 2 CC for grenade launchers?
If you look at it that way its currently just a fight for rts all game which gets quite tedious and boring... There needs to be some key buildings that can be taken out for teams to gain advantages... Most of the tier 2 abilities are not so powerful that marines cannot fight back, so its really more that the aliens start to loose and then loose the hive, which helps the game end faster. Just like marines loosing rts and map control should start slowing down upgrades and their weapon purchases.
With how aliens play in ns2 i dont think loosing the second hive will be instant gg like it was in ns1, simple because of how the resource systems are designed. Good lifeform play by the aliens on the one hive should still allow them to push back marines unless they are fully teched, however alot of that will come down to map design IMO.. Summit has major issues when it comes to importance of the second hive, since close spawns makes your second much easier, while far spawns makes it significantly harder.
<!--quoteo(post=1943157:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:51 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 13 2012, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Tie CCs to robotics factories or proto labs as a hard limit. Force proto labs to be specialised to jetpack or exosuit. First CC gets robotics factory. Means marine team needs a second CC for a protolab, 3 CCs if they want all protolab tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like a fun idea. It sort of resembles the type of tech choice an alien commander would have to think of, in that this one has a marine commander either planning against structures/ for map control (Robotics CC) or against lifeforms (Protolab CC).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1943163:date=Jun 13 2012, 09:10 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 13 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With how aliens play in ns2 i dont think loosing the second hive will be instant gg like it was in ns1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a myth I see perpetuated too often on these forums. Losing your second hive was not an instant GG in NS1, unless the marines already had a significant advantage before the hive went down, typically because the aliens lost all their fades and/or RTs. Having aliens coming back to win after losing not only one, but multiple hives, possibly even before they went up, was not uncommon even in top level play.
<!--quoteo(post=1943152:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was like that in previous builds and it just led to every game playing the same way. If the marines killed the hive then they win and if they don't they lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This issue is actually caused by lifeform/ability design in NS2, not abilities being tied to the amount of hives. The problem is in particular that the Fade design is extremely limited without blink. In NS1, losing/being denied the second hive only ment that you didn't get a second upgrade and meta (both very important, but it was still possible to win the game by only using one-hive fades (and other lifeforms)).
<!--quoteo(post=1943152:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My main problem with it is that the tier 2 abilities are so powerful that they completely change the game. It's not like they are just a small improvement. It means that losing the hive puts you at a very big disadvantage in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keeping what I said above in mind; in my mind this actually improves gameplay. It's a key moment in the game, that to some degree affects how the game will play out afterwards. It doesn't entirely decide it however, it just potentially gives one team a significant advantage. This creates an exhilarating situation both for the players and the spectators, as everybody knows that this moment is important.
Gets the adrenaline pumping and is a lot more exciting than a linear tug of war where the outcome of every battle is simply a small nudge in the right direction.
<!--quoteo(post=1942978:date=Jun 12 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 12 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a bonus, it's a nerf. Previously it just become invincible the moment you started blinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->It was a nerf done half-way and is terribly unintuitive. I'm aware it was invincible before, that was terrible too, the fact the variable armor is a nerf from invincibility doesn't make it good.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1943185:date=Jun 13 2012, 11:59 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 13 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keeping what I said above in mind; in my mind this actually improves gameplay. It's a key moment in the game, that to some degree affects how the game will play out afterwards. It doesn't entirely decide it however, it just potentially gives one team a significant advantage. This creates an exhilarating situation both for the players and the spectators, as everybody knows that this moment is important.
Gets the adrenaline pumping and is a lot more exciting than a linear tug of war where the outcome of every battle is simply a small nudge in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree. I'm not against upgrades being tied to the second hive, just ones that are too powerful and decide the game based on whether you have them or not.
I think the key thing is that even if you don't have the second hive you should still have a reasonable chance of success in combat against the other team, despite them having an advantage. It's about balancing it so that the advantage is not so big that it decides the game but also not so small that it is meaningless and not really a big deal.
The fade is definitely a problem. I don't like blink being tied to the second hive because it is so important. A fade without blink against JP marines is useless since you can't even shadow step into the air.
Aliens need to be encouraged to capture and hold additional hives. The additional upgrade you get and energy (that will be removed in 210) isn't a great incentive. Currently, the difference between a 3-hive alien and 2-hive alien is not significant, but it should be. Also, marines are more concerned with harvesters than hives, doesn't seem appropriate given the res cost of the two structures.
How about increasing alien armor and health (slightly) with each additional hive? This would make aliens progressively stronger and give them additional incentive to keep their hives and incentive for marines to prevent additional hives. If aliens were to lose the hive, it wouldn't be an instant gg, but it would put them slightly behind.
This could also eliminate the long dragged out games when marines turret and turtle with armories on the power node. A 4-hive alien would be significantly stronger than they are now.
A final point, I believe that when tier 3 abilities are introduced, aliens should require at least 2 mature hives to upgrade for them - once again encouraging them to fight for more hives but not forcing them to (given tier 2 abilities are already strong enough to end the game).
Loosing the second hive itself in NS1 was not instant GG, I suppose you are right regarding that. Generally it did seem like most teams would sacrifice lifeforms to attempt to save it too often, which coupled with the loss of the hive generally was I think however. I do think that players started to realize that later and it probably started to play slightly differently in that regard (being more intelligent with switch hitting base/siege or pressuring marines elsewhere).
<!--quoteo(post=1943197:date=Jun 13 2012, 06:11 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I agree. I'm not against upgrades being tied to the second hive, just ones that are too powerful and decide the game based on whether you have them or not.
I think the key thing is that even if you don't have the second hive you should still have a reasonable chance of success in combat against the other team, despite them having an advantage. It's about balancing it so that the advantage is not so big that it decides the game but also not so small that it is meaningless and not really a big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
disagree
losing a hive is supposed to be a big blow to aliens, otherwise whats the incentive of guarding it. youre saying that all things equal, marines with say lvl 2 armor and weaps, are supposed to = 1 hive aliens?
no, this should NEVER be how it is.
the alien hive is the most important structure in the game imo. the more hives you have the better change you have of winning. more hives = more abilities, more heal spots, better map control.
losing a hive is supposed to decide the game, the same way losing the com chair for marines loses them the game instantly.
what is so hard to understand? more hives = better victory tacos. the end
let marines kill your hives, you lose. stop trying to crutch the game for bad players, good games dont handicap the hell out of everything and neither should ns2
I agree that tying abilities to the second hive was the right level of importance for the second hive.
One of the problem with it is that it reduces a bit the options for the alien commander, but nobody came up with a better alternative so, linked abilities to second hive it is.
losing a hive is supposed to be a big blow to aliens, otherwise whats the incentive of guarding it. youre saying that all things equal, marines with say lvl 2 armor and weaps, are supposed to = 1 hive aliens?
no, this should NEVER be how it is.
the alien hive is the most important structure in the game imo. the more hives you have the better change you have of winning. more hives = more abilities, more heal spots, better map control.
losing a hive is supposed to decide the game, the same way losing the com chair for marines loses them the game instantly.
what is so hard to understand? more hives = better victory tacos. the end
let marines kill your hives, you lose. stop trying to crutch the game for bad players, good games dont handicap the hell out of everything and neither should ns2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He hasn't said, that he wants everything equal. He just wrote about hard counters, which are bad. LvL2 marines should have an advantage against 1hive aliens. But with enough skill everyone should be able to counter this advantage. There is nothing more boring, than a game where you can determine the outcome minutes before it ends. I don't know how much you play NS2. But for me, there is often the point where I get bored, because I know that we are going to lose but the game drags on 20 or 30 minutes. The first 5 or 6 times it was fun to run away from an onos and got smashed anyway. But now it's just boring. I can't shoot it down without necessary upgrades like weapons3 even with all of my team mates. And I can't run away, because he is faster. So I stupidly spawn, run firing into my death, spawn again... until the game is finally over. No possible amount of skill would change that. It's just a boring game mechanic for an FPS to have hard counters. Or why do you think is vanilla skulk vs. lvl0 marine the most fun?
Upgrades should bring advantages, yes! But not so much that they are mandatory or create hard counters.
<!--quoteo(post=1943487:date=Jun 15 2012, 04:51 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 15 2012, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->losing a hive is supposed to decide the game, the same way losing the com chair for marines loses them the game instantly.
what is so hard to understand? more hives = better victory tacos. the end
let marines kill your hives, you lose. stop trying to crutch the game for bad players, good games dont handicap the hell out of everything and neither should ns2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Necro is right. Losing all your hives is what decides the game, but losing an expansion shouldn't put you at such a big disadvantage that you may as well quit before the game is over. I'm not trying to crutch the game for bad players. I'm trying to remove hard counters so that the game is about skill.
I agree with Wilson. If they want to try this economy solution for expanding hives they should go all in on it and not stop and revert back. Altough the upgraded abilitys should be tied to the hive that upgraded it. The problem with this for the marines is that they dont se whats upgraded on the specific hives.
How is "killing a hive" considered a hard counter? That's like saying "Killing RTs" is a hardcounter to onos. Or "killing onos" is a hardcounter to losing.
Right now, the second hive is rather meaningless for aliens. Losing your second hive is less important than losing a single upgrade chamber like carapace or celerity. It's also less important than losing 1 or 2 harvesters. Why is the hive so meaningless?
What is wrong with the aliens being disadvantage when they lose a hive? Seems like the entire point of an RTS-FPS is that when the other team does something big (like killing a hive!) then they've gained an advantage. It, by your very own definitions, is not an insurmountable advantage because you'd only lose abilities. You still have all the lifeforms. Fades with shadowstep on defense are still very effective killers. Losing your hive should matter. Right now, it doesn't. Tying some abilities to a second hive is the best way to force aliens to expand instead of playing 1 base until they get their full tech out.
Killing the hive isn't a hard counter, you misunderstood. I'm saying that if you lose the hive then your players shouldn't get hard countered by the opponents because they don't have a certain upgrade or ability. Also, the opposite is true. If you get the hive built you shouldn't be so powerful that you hard counter the opponents. It is a fine balance between making the hive meaningful without it deciding the game.
I don't think having blink tied to the hive is good the way it is currently. I think the fade should be changed completely though, it is just bad right now.
b210 should be changing the importance of second hives/ccs anyway. If it does a good job managing economy with secondary hives then I don't think abilities will have to be tied to it. We'll see when b210 comes out.
I don't think the late game being unbalanced to one side or the other is the main problem though. Late games being awfully boring is a much worse issue.
I got this game this past week and I have noticed that pretty much every team I play with is constantly saying the other team is OP. One game, everyone will claim aliens are far superior. The next, everyone claims marines are superior. Here is what my very limited playing has shown me:
They seem pretty balanced. I have yet to see a team come back after the other team dominates the majority of a match. Whoever controlls the resources, wins. Marinee that have turtled in base have not been able to come back late, after teching out. If their late game tech was too OPed, I'd assume you would see this. Aliens do seem to be the only side that pulps off quick victories though. The only time I saw a marine team win quickly was when my alien team played the five minutes with no commander.
As for the hive discussion. People are saying aliens should lose X when they lose a hive. If ypu want that, then I say you start making the marine team need multiple CC in order to get their upgrades. That way the aliens can also take their upgrades. I don't see how they could have this game be even if only one side can lose their upgrades. Of course, this is assuming their isn't a way to take marine upgrades already(again, I'm a noob).
Essay INC, Grissi style. Not sure why people suggest balance ideas in an asymmetric game that promotes symmetry... Let each side play the way they play best. Aliens cover ground faster, and are far more independent, making their game more about presence, scouting and reacting to marines quickly. If you give aliens a way to unlock better abilities at a single hive it just makes the game a grind fest at the end, which is already so extremely evident.
I’m not sure why you suggest that losing a hive mid game is instant GG, maybe your thinking of pub NS1 where marine teams would often just skip the siege and go straight JP to pressure the second hive way after it had gone up, which when lost would be the endgame, but that’s because the aliens let the marines get end game tech. It’s similar to marines that let aliens get a third hive, its endgame tech. Regardless good players can fight midgame tech (think 2-1 marines with shotguns and maybe gls) with 1 hive aliens, it’s not impossibly difficult by any means.
NS1 is both an RTS and FPS, and for parts of the game to work correctly there needs to be end game tech, which gives a team a distinct (but not instant GG if the other team can also get similar tech) advantage, so that games can end and not drag on, which is pretty much the standard NS2 game ATM. It’s pretty easy to get every possible upgrade and still it takes 30+ minutes to end the game. Part of this I think is compounded by certain design decisions that were made in an attempt to make stuff more useful throughout the entire game, however NS2 is part RTS, and getting fade/shotgun/onos/jp/exo/lerk should be substantial upgrades over the base equipment/lifeform, which they are currently but IMO not enough. By muting the effectiveness of the upgraded tech it has made the game progressively harder and harder to end, which leads to stale game play as it descends into a grind fest until one team can finally start to gain the upper hand. I think some of the changes are also in response to the ‘tech explosion’ issue, which IMO is not really an issue, but the result of individualizing the resource systems. Unless changes were to be made to that system, I think the game should be balanced around those ‘explosions’, by making sure that there are more valid counters to each upgrade as it would become available. The only real ‘explosions’ that are unbalanced somewhat are fades and onos, and possibly lerk atm (209). There are many ways to balance the lifeforms so that they can be countered early game by marines, yet remain effective throughout the game with well designed and effective second and third abilities. Personally I think the lerk (once bite is fixed, and hopefully the Armor reverted and speed re-increased) will be pretty balanced. Spikes are somewhat iffy as a second ability but I haven’t played with them much so I’ll wait to comment on them. I think umbra is a very good choice for the third ability. Skulk with leap/xenocide is quite proven and I think will work extremely well in NS2 also. Fade’s second and third abilities need a lot of attention, as it’s arguably the most critical lifeform with regards to scaling. It cannot be too powerful initially, but needs to remain effective throughout the entire game, even when fighting exos. I think vortex may be effective as a third ability; it will definitively need testing however. For the fade’s second ability however I think blink is misplaced, and needs work. As I have stated previously, I would like to see blink made more like NS1, and made tier 1 ability, with no damage reduction system. For the second ability, I could a multitude of different abilities. A stab like attack could be added that functions somewhat like focus did in NS1 (maybe 1.7 times damage with longer animation/higher energy cost vs swipe), but where it would not have any of the restrictions stab had (actual hit tag was very late in animation, slowed your movement and limited other ability use). Another idea was to repurpose shadowstep to grant invulnerability when used for a short time (<1s), but have a very high energy cost (like 40). This would allow players with good timing to dodge shots but at a substantial cost.
Regarding onos, I think it is hard to make too many changes to him currently because the EXO is not in game. Looking at the lua for the minigun damage values, I fear that exos may completely break every alien class currently, but that’s all speculation as none of that is finished. I think overall the onos is not so badly broken that it needs urgent changes.
I do think that many of the recent changes have improved much upon the base gameplay of NS2, which is starting to make more subtle changes like above more critical (it means the game is getting better!). I think with the resource changes coming in 210 that lifeform balance will be one of the last major topics that needs to be covered, along with the alien commander/tech progression for aliens.
Comments
I think we can all agree that it's not very intuitive. I remember when I found out I went back and read the patch notes and the explanation was nothing like the real implementation.
If it is any way like in NS1 ONOS vs Exo/jetpack resulted in many long lasting battles.
To be honest, I don't know why they won't add in Hive/Command Station Tiers again.
To be honest, I don't know why they won't add in Hive/Command Station Tiers again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it meant that effectively losing 1 hive/station was sudden death. You lost a tier while the enemy stayed ahead, making it much harder to do anything.
I'd really like to see some things (perhaps tier 2 abilities -- leap, blink, stomp) tied to second hive and research. That way a turtling alien team can still get out higher lifeforms, but they wouldn't be as powerful as an alien team playing a balanced strategy. Hive expansions should be encouraged, but right now they're something only done in the safety of onos and fully upgraded fades/skulks.
The game would end pretty quickly that way, instead of boring end game trying to pick out the last hive. Marines would overpower the aliens pretty quickly if they don't have their tier 2 abilities.
And a better question would be, why would you allow the marines to take down your 2nd hive?
That's part of the point... To give value to second hives. Right now you lose a hive and if it's not your primary one then it doesn't really matter.
It would probably require a rethinking of tier 2 prices if they could be destroyed though. Leap and spikes should be a bit cheaper. Bilebomb, blink and stomp are too powerful to be cheaper.
TimMc's idea could be a better way to try it I guess.
My main problem with it is that the tier 2 abilities are so powerful that they completely change the game. It's not like they are just a small improvement. It means that losing the hive puts you at a very big disadvantage in combat.
TimMc's idea could be a better way to try it I guess.
My main problem with it is that the tier 2 abilities are so powerful that they completely change the game. It's not like they are just a small improvement. It means that losing the hive puts you at a very big disadvantage in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of the marines not needing more than 1 CC, any ideas on what could be divided up to force them to build multiple chairs?
The big problem with marines is that despite having 1 CC, they can hold off the aliens for as long as they want once bunkered down. The only reason marines ever build multiple CC is to avoid losing immediately if the aliens organise a proper onos rush.
I cannot think of an easy solution that would not heavily gimp the marine team.
1) Tie CCs to robotics factories or proto labs as a hard limit. Force proto labs to be specialised to jetpack or exosuit. First CC gets robotics factory. Means marine team needs a second CC for a protolab, 3 CCs if they want all protolab tech.
2) Move tech to the CC as an upgrade, and have upgrade slots as I suggested. Need 3 CC for level 3 weapons? Or perhaps 2 CC for grenade launchers?
To be honest I don't like either idea.
With how aliens play in ns2 i dont think loosing the second hive will be instant gg like it was in ns1, simple because of how the resource systems are designed. Good lifeform play by the aliens on the one hive should still allow them to push back marines unless they are fully teched, however alot of that will come down to map design IMO.. Summit has major issues when it comes to importance of the second hive, since close spawns makes your second much easier, while far spawns makes it significantly harder.
That sounds like a fun idea. It sort of resembles the type of tech choice an alien commander would have to think of, in that this one has a marine commander either planning against structures/ for map control (Robotics CC) or against lifeforms (Protolab CC).
This is a myth I see perpetuated too often on these forums. Losing your second hive was not an instant GG in NS1, unless the marines already had a significant advantage before the hive went down, typically because the aliens lost all their fades and/or RTs. Having aliens coming back to win after losing not only one, but multiple hives, possibly even before they went up, was not uncommon even in top level play.
<!--quoteo(post=1943152:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was like that in previous builds and it just led to every game playing the same way. If the marines killed the hive then they win and if they don't they lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This issue is actually caused by lifeform/ability design in NS2, not abilities being tied to the amount of hives. The problem is in particular that the Fade design is extremely limited without blink. In NS1, losing/being denied the second hive only ment that you didn't get a second upgrade and meta (both very important, but it was still possible to win the game by only using one-hive fades (and other lifeforms)).
<!--quoteo(post=1943152:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My main problem with it is that the tier 2 abilities are so powerful that they completely change the game. It's not like they are just a small improvement. It means that losing the hive puts you at a very big disadvantage in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keeping what I said above in mind; in my mind this actually improves gameplay. It's a key moment in the game, that to some degree affects how the game will play out afterwards. It doesn't entirely decide it however, it just potentially gives one team a significant advantage. This creates an exhilarating situation both for the players and the spectators, as everybody knows that this moment is important.
Gets the adrenaline pumping and is a lot more exciting than a linear tug of war where the outcome of every battle is simply a small nudge in the right direction.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->It was a nerf done half-way and is terribly unintuitive. I'm aware it was invincible before, that was terrible too, the fact the variable armor is a nerf from invincibility doesn't make it good.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Gets the adrenaline pumping and is a lot more exciting than a linear tug of war where the outcome of every battle is simply a small nudge in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree. I'm not against upgrades being tied to the second hive, just ones that are too powerful and decide the game based on whether you have them or not.
I think the key thing is that even if you don't have the second hive you should still have a reasonable chance of success in combat against the other team, despite them having an advantage. It's about balancing it so that the advantage is not so big that it decides the game but also not so small that it is meaningless and not really a big deal.
The fade is definitely a problem. I don't like blink being tied to the second hive because it is so important. A fade without blink against JP marines is useless since you can't even shadow step into the air.
How about increasing alien armor and health (slightly) with each additional hive? This would make aliens progressively stronger and give them additional incentive to keep their hives and incentive for marines to prevent additional hives. If aliens were to lose the hive, it wouldn't be an instant gg, but it would put them slightly behind.
This could also eliminate the long dragged out games when marines turret and turtle with armories on the power node. A 4-hive alien would be significantly stronger than they are now.
A final point, I believe that when tier 3 abilities are introduced, aliens should require at least 2 mature hives to upgrade for them - once again encouraging them to fight for more hives but not forcing them to (given tier 2 abilities are already strong enough to end the game).
I think the key thing is that even if you don't have the second hive you should still have a reasonable chance of success in combat against the other team, despite them having an advantage. It's about balancing it so that the advantage is not so big that it decides the game but also not so small that it is meaningless and not really a big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
disagree
losing a hive is supposed to be a big blow to aliens, otherwise whats the incentive of guarding it. youre saying that all things equal, marines with say lvl 2 armor and weaps, are supposed to = 1 hive aliens?
no, this should NEVER be how it is.
the alien hive is the most important structure in the game imo. the more hives you have the better change you have of winning. more hives = more abilities, more heal spots, better map control.
losing a hive is supposed to decide the game, the same way losing the com chair for marines loses them the game instantly.
what is so hard to understand? more hives = better victory tacos. the end
let marines kill your hives, you lose. stop trying to crutch the game for bad players, good games dont handicap the hell out of everything and neither should ns2
One of the problem with it is that it reduces a bit the options for the alien commander, but nobody came up with a better alternative so, linked abilities to second hive it is.
losing a hive is supposed to be a big blow to aliens, otherwise whats the incentive of guarding it. youre saying that all things equal, marines with say lvl 2 armor and weaps, are supposed to = 1 hive aliens?
no, this should NEVER be how it is.
the alien hive is the most important structure in the game imo. the more hives you have the better change you have of winning. more hives = more abilities, more heal spots, better map control.
losing a hive is supposed to decide the game, the same way losing the com chair for marines loses them the game instantly.
what is so hard to understand? more hives = better victory tacos. the end
let marines kill your hives, you lose. stop trying to crutch the game for bad players, good games dont handicap the hell out of everything and neither should ns2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He hasn't said, that he wants everything equal. He just wrote about hard counters, which are bad. LvL2 marines should have an advantage against 1hive aliens. But with enough skill everyone should be able to counter this advantage. There is nothing more boring, than a game where you can determine the outcome minutes before it ends. I don't know how much you play NS2. But for me, there is often the point where I get bored, because I know that we are going to lose but the game drags on 20 or 30 minutes. The first 5 or 6 times it was fun to run away from an onos and got smashed anyway. But now it's just boring. I can't shoot it down without necessary upgrades like weapons3 even with all of my team mates. And I can't run away, because he is faster. So I stupidly spawn, run firing into my death, spawn again... until the game is finally over. No possible amount of skill would change that. It's just a boring game mechanic for an FPS to have hard counters. Or why do you think is vanilla skulk vs. lvl0 marine the most fun?
Upgrades should bring advantages, yes! But not so much that they are mandatory or create hard counters.
what is so hard to understand? more hives = better victory tacos. the end
let marines kill your hives, you lose. stop trying to crutch the game for bad players, good games dont handicap the hell out of everything and neither should ns2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Necro is right. Losing all your hives is what decides the game, but losing an expansion shouldn't put you at such a big disadvantage that you may as well quit before the game is over. I'm not trying to crutch the game for bad players. I'm trying to remove hard counters so that the game is about skill.
If they want to try this economy solution for expanding hives they should go all in on it and not stop and revert back.
Altough the upgraded abilitys should be tied to the hive that upgraded it. The problem with this for the marines is that they dont se whats upgraded on the specific hives.
Right now, the second hive is rather meaningless for aliens. Losing your second hive is less important than losing a single upgrade chamber like carapace or celerity. It's also less important than losing 1 or 2 harvesters. Why is the hive so meaningless?
What is wrong with the aliens being disadvantage when they lose a hive? Seems like the entire point of an RTS-FPS is that when the other team does something big (like killing a hive!) then they've gained an advantage. It, by your very own definitions, is not an insurmountable advantage because you'd only lose abilities. You still have all the lifeforms. Fades with shadowstep on defense are still very effective killers. Losing your hive should matter. Right now, it doesn't. Tying some abilities to a second hive is the best way to force aliens to expand instead of playing 1 base until they get their full tech out.
I don't think having blink tied to the hive is good the way it is currently. I think the fade should be changed completely though, it is just bad right now.
They seem pretty balanced. I have yet to see a team come back after the other team dominates the majority of a match. Whoever controlls the resources, wins. Marinee that have turtled in base have not been able to come back late, after teching out. If their late game tech was too OPed, I'd assume you would see this. Aliens do seem to be the only side that pulps off quick victories though. The only time I saw a marine team win quickly was when my alien team played the five minutes with no commander.
As for the hive discussion. People are saying aliens should lose X when they lose a hive. If ypu want that, then I say you start making the marine team need multiple CC in order to get their upgrades. That way the aliens can also take their upgrades. I don't see how they could have this game be even if only one side can lose their upgrades. Of course, this is assuming their isn't a way to take marine upgrades already(again, I'm a noob).
Not sure why people suggest balance ideas in an asymmetric game that promotes symmetry... Let each side play the way they play best. Aliens cover ground faster, and are far more independent, making their game more about presence, scouting and reacting to marines quickly. If you give aliens a way to unlock better abilities at a single hive it just makes the game a grind fest at the end, which is already so extremely evident.
I’m not sure why you suggest that losing a hive mid game is instant GG, maybe your thinking of pub NS1 where marine teams would often just skip the siege and go straight JP to pressure the second hive way after it had gone up, which when lost would be the endgame, but that’s because the aliens let the marines get end game tech. It’s similar to marines that let aliens get a third hive, its endgame tech. Regardless good players can fight midgame tech (think 2-1 marines with shotguns and maybe gls) with 1 hive aliens, it’s not impossibly difficult by any means.
NS1 is both an RTS and FPS, and for parts of the game to work correctly there needs to be end game tech, which gives a team a distinct (but not instant GG if the other team can also get similar tech) advantage, so that games can end and not drag on, which is pretty much the standard NS2 game ATM. It’s pretty easy to get every possible upgrade and still it takes 30+ minutes to end the game. Part of this I think is compounded by certain design decisions that were made in an attempt to make stuff more useful throughout the entire game, however NS2 is part RTS, and getting fade/shotgun/onos/jp/exo/lerk should be substantial upgrades over the base equipment/lifeform, which they are currently but IMO not enough. By muting the effectiveness of the upgraded tech it has made the game progressively harder and harder to end, which leads to stale game play as it descends into a grind fest until one team can finally start to gain the upper hand.
I think some of the changes are also in response to the ‘tech explosion’ issue, which IMO is not really an issue, but the result of individualizing the resource systems. Unless changes were to be made to that system, I think the game should be balanced around those ‘explosions’, by making sure that there are more valid counters to each upgrade as it would become available. The only real ‘explosions’ that are unbalanced somewhat are fades and onos, and possibly lerk atm (209). There are many ways to balance the lifeforms so that they can be countered early game by marines, yet remain effective throughout the game with well designed and effective second and third abilities. Personally I think the lerk (once bite is fixed, and hopefully the Armor reverted and speed re-increased) will be pretty balanced. Spikes are somewhat iffy as a second ability but I haven’t played with them much so I’ll wait to comment on them. I think umbra is a very good choice for the third ability. Skulk with leap/xenocide is quite proven and I think will work extremely well in NS2 also. Fade’s second and third abilities need a lot of attention, as it’s arguably the most critical lifeform with regards to scaling. It cannot be too powerful initially, but needs to remain effective throughout the entire game, even when fighting exos. I think vortex may be effective as a third ability; it will definitively need testing however. For the fade’s second ability however I think blink is misplaced, and needs work. As I have stated previously, I would like to see blink made more like NS1, and made tier 1 ability, with no damage reduction system. For the second ability, I could a multitude of different abilities. A stab like attack could be added that functions somewhat like focus did in NS1 (maybe 1.7 times damage with longer animation/higher energy cost vs swipe), but where it would not have any of the restrictions stab had (actual hit tag was very late in animation, slowed your movement and limited other ability use). Another idea was to repurpose shadowstep to grant invulnerability when used for a short time (<1s), but have a very high energy cost (like 40). This would allow players with good timing to dodge shots but at a substantial cost.
Regarding onos, I think it is hard to make too many changes to him currently because the EXO is not in game. Looking at the lua for the minigun damage values, I fear that exos may completely break every alien class currently, but that’s all speculation as none of that is finished. I think overall the onos is not so badly broken that it needs urgent changes.
I do think that many of the recent changes have improved much upon the base gameplay of NS2, which is starting to make more subtle changes like above more critical (it means the game is getting better!). I think with the resource changes coming in 210 that lifeform balance will be one of the last major topics that needs to be covered, along with the alien commander/tech progression for aliens.