SintJoin Date: 2007-01-09Member: 59540Members, Squad Five Blue
Jps can't fly forever, so you kill them when they are out of fuel or use hydras to kill them, or use gorge healspray to kill them, or use lerk to kill them, or use onos to kill them. Many ways to take care of jps. Jp cost is another thing, it could be bit more costly like 15 pres.
If fade blink would be changed to be able to hit instantly after blink or faster than now, it would become more op when killing marines normally. Since even now its good way to kill marines by blinking in, hitting once, blinking out.
Onos stomp should disable arcs imo, maybe it should only be able to disable them if it stomps all the time. So not able to do damage alone and disable same time.
Something wrong with that? Healingspray range is very large and can reach even roof in quite many places. Post was not meant to be for something like 1v1 situation. If there are fades running around after jps, gorge can be there as well spamming healingspray to damage the jps.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1942420:date=Jun 9 2012, 09:17 AM:name=SkiT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SkiT @ Jun 9 2012, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree fade need to hit immediatly after blink for deal With the jet pack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Don't you guys remember what it was like before this? You just died from fades and weren't sure how - it was over before you realized. Allowing them to swipe right out of blink faster than currently allows them to get a free swipe every. single. time. So unless you add a larger delay in between swipes, it just resulted in a marine dying before having any time to react.
And, for the record, you can still get jetpackers, you just need to utilize and time the momentum, meaning tap blink only at a 45 degree angle upwards. Also, i personally feel leap for skulks gives them a run for their money as well, besides lerks who are the obvious counter. (for cheaper than a fade)
Not every lifeform should be the hard counter to jp. That being said - lets brainstorm: If the fade had a new ability that replaced stab, and you wanted it geared towards dealing with JPers, what would it be?
That being said - lets brainstorm: If the fade had a new ability that replaced stab, and you wanted it geared towards dealing with JPers, what would it be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acidrocket could fill the slot as tier 3 ability. As it did in ns1.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1942435:date=Jun 9 2012, 07:40 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 9 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just died from fades and weren't sure how - it was over before you realized.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was/is a problem with the blink model, nothing else.
The frustrating attack delay after blink was an attempt to salvage teleport blink, but as with many of these attempts at fixing inherently broken mechanics, it just introduces new problems.
Giving a melee class a delay between using its movement ability and attacking is a pretty strange idea to begin with...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1942443:date=Jun 9 2012, 12:46 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 9 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was/is a problem with the blink model, nothing else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While i disagree, i think this is an ample time to provide an idea that works within these constraints, then, like i suggested. What do you have in mind?
Acid rocket is good... but surely there's more creativity in you guys than drawing from something you've played before. go go go
Dont forget the hidden mechanic where you can suddenly take damage during blink(even die) at some point(depends on your hp or energy?)... Not sure if this still exists tho, i at least remember that somebody (i think yuuki?) told me of this. (too lazy to look in the code now, even tho risking looking like an idiot)
While fade is not extreamly broken, its <u>not</u> fine, i know some ppl wont like to hear it - blink, something between ns1 blink or yuukis fademod, or a version based of shadowstep without any attack or movement delays would be a lot better. (no hidden mechanics or delays, to "fix" the problematic invincibility)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yes, Koruyo you bring up an EXCELLENT point regarding feedback. It is not apparent in first person that you are not yet completely "faded", while it is very obvious in 3rd person. (i.e. your enemy knows) You take a % of damage going into blink for the first 1.4 sec or something like that, and while very low on energy , regardless of blinking, you are in this state "half blink" state of vulnerability.
You can notice your hands/claws/swiping tools of death will reflect this state of change.. but its not really intuitively obvious whats going on. This has been brought to attention before, but i'll bring it up again.
<!--quoteo(post=1942447:date=Jun 9 2012, 01:59 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 9 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While i disagree, i think this is an ample time to provide an idea that works within these constraints, then, like i suggested. What do you have in mind?
Acid rocket is good... but surely there's more creativity in you guys than drawing from something you've played before. go go go<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest I never liked the acid rockets, for no good reason besides it looking bizarre. Perhaps fades could expell a mist that drains jetpack fuel, or causes jetpacks to cut out entirely forcing them to land before being used again? Not a trail as lerks have, but an AoE gas cloud in all directions for a very short distance and time. If you let this mist out mid-air, or in a spot you think the jetpack is about to goto, then it could be a useful debilitator.
I really miss the webs for gorges btw. Hydras can sort of hit jetpackers, but the damage isn't enough to stop them from zipping past or above.
The only good idea I've seen thusfar is to remove the cooldown from leap -> bite and blink -> swipe. Lerks are not a counter to jetpacks. When lerk bite is fixed, they're not going to stand up against jetpacks. If you think this is too overpowered for fades, then balance in other areas. Increase time between blinks and shadowsteps. Or increase energy costs. Etc.
Fade blink IMO can never be balanced correctly as-is. Giving a lifeform an ability which you use constantly that offers damage reduction based on your energy divided by 100 will always be unbalanced, as it is so abuse able. Currently you can blink 6 times before running out of energy, which basically means you can make 3 or 4 completely terrible mistakes, and still survive. People are only just now beginning to realize how to exploit the blink to its fullest, where they swipe once then blink, swipe once then blink, and continue till your dead or they run below half energy. Its basically almost impossible to kill a fade doing that, as the timing for when you should shoot between his blinks is extremely short. From the small amount of testing i did shooting a fade point blank with a shotgun when he is in blink does about 10 damage.
I guess i could quote some of the earlier discussions for ideas here:
There are a couple different ways the fade could be modified to make it more skillful overall as a class, less abusable, and also maintain the relatively easier learning curve vs NS1. -The fades current blink could be modified so that it no longer provides any kind of damage reduction. From there it could be changed to be a hive 1 ability. -Shadow step could then be changed to offer the damage reduction/invulnerability that blink once did, however at a much higher energy cost (say 40 energy). -This would allow intelligent fades to dodge shots but would not allow him to escape/enter situations nearly as easily, and would penalize him for making mistakes/over committing. This change would encourage fades to play more as a team, and also for lone fades to be a lot more cautious as they would be vulnerable to ambushes or route blocking.
-Another idea possibly for fade blink is to make it so that when you are being shot in blink it will drain the fades energy, which would in turn make him more vulnerable. This will allow marines to damage the fade somewhat while he is blinking. With this change marines would have a reason to shot fades entering the room, as it would have the potential to weaken him, and also drain his energy which would cause additional shots to cause even more damage. I do think that this idea would be another quite frustrating restriction to put on the damage reduction blink system however, and would rather see one of the other two.
-The third idea that I have heard was to make fade blink work more like NS1, where its more of a momentum impulse then anything else. The current effects could remain and even just be slightly speed-up, which would still give the fade a small visual look of fading in and out, but he would be unable to stay in blink nearly as long as the energy drain would be per tick of blink. This would also involve the removal of the damage reduction system on blink, and removal of shadow step.
Something does need to be changed with the blink model for the fade to remain effective throughout the game better, otherwise it will always be somewhat overpowered/abuse able early, and relatively weak late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1942456:date=Jun 9 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Jun 9 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about a vortex slightly pulling jetpackers towards it? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A gravitational-impacting vortex? I like the idea but then we'd have to understand its range and whether it impacts a large location or where jet-packers can simply avoid getting too close. Would be cool to see the entirety of a room that a vortex is in begins to shift from one dimension to another (Basically throwing the whole rooms gravity into a completely different-one. It would then impact both races but give Fades a controlled edge for adapting towards blinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1942443:date=Jun 9 2012, 02:46 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 9 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was/is a problem with the blink model, nothing else.
The frustrating attack delay after blink was an attempt to salvage teleport blink, but as with many of these attempts at fixing inherently broken mechanics, it just introduces new problems.
Giving a melee class a delay between using its movement ability and attacking is a pretty strange idea to begin with...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, exactly.
People need to realize that the only times Marines have a high chance of survival against a fade onslaught is if they actually PAIR UP AS A TEAM and NOT go about the map soloing.
I've yet to see 1 fade successfully pick off 1 marine within a group of marines firing before it died. The only viable option, is to flank (as a Fade) from a different route. Fades aren't as invincible as they were in NS1 against LMG's, lets understand that.
That said, the blink model has to change because:
--Not a formidable counter against Jetpacks --NS2 Fade is vulnerable as it is against a level 3 marine. - Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the fade needs is 1 SINGLE magazine from a Level 3 LMG to kill it.
As for the current Vortex idea, I really don't see the point, especially vs. Jetpacks.
Why put a Marine in a different dimension that renders him useless? Why not just kill the ###### right there and be done with it?
And besides, isn't that what most people want against a menacing Marine, let alone a Jetpacking one who currently lacks a proper counter (most notablly the current blink system)?
The only other option I can think of for Vortex, is that it should either disable the Jetpack for 1 (2, tops) second, or drain its fuel by X amount.
<!--quoteo(post=1942472:date=Jun 9 2012, 03:38 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jun 9 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the fade needs is 1 SINGLE magazine from a Level 3 LMG to kill it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's like 27-29 bullets technically to kill a carapace fade with a lvl3 LMG. But that probably never happens due to the tickrates declining by the time fades are out and thus the poor hitreg allowing them to soak way more damage than that.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1942447:date=Jun 9 2012, 08:59 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 9 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think this is an ample time to provide an idea that works within these constraints<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trying to fix an inherently broken mechanic is what brought us to this point in the first place. Did you even read my post?
As I've suggested in other threads, the Fade should be: Slot1: Same blink model as NS1. Slot2: Shadowstep. Slot3: Something fun, that isn't another stupid disabling tool like the proposed vortex.
Even with NS1 blink and no swipe delay, the high gravity and air friction would still make it unnecessarily difficult to hit something in the air. Does anyone know why air friction was added in the first place?
<!--quoteo(post=1942509:date=Jun 9 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Seahunts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seahunts @ Jun 9 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if there was a progressive upgrade of blink?
Say early game the blink swipe delay remains as it currently stands.
Then a research option later in game to remove the delay to help with dealing with jet packs?
This may aboid the problem of fades being OP early game and UP late game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all.
Now the Delay was added as a fix(patch?) for the fade blink, since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe. I think it would be a better idea to simply to make fade blink work without the need of any delay instead of keep adding patches to it to fix its problem. The issue is how the blink works, the focus point should be there.
The problems are not always visual on the surface, its important to dig into whats truly causing the problems before working on them.
Would increased performance allow lower interp/lag compensation which would in turn alleviate the blink/swipe issue that the delay was trying to address?
<!--quoteo(post=1942175:date=Jun 7 2012, 10:51 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 7 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just experienced a game that reminded me a lot like NS1, and not in a good way. The game was great in the for the first 25-30 mins or so. Both sides were on equal footing, 3 bases each. Then we fall into the late game balancing blunder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wanted to quote this because ill be bringing this point up MANY times
<i><b>"Marine tech is superior to Aliens."</b></i>
team tactics are what loses games for alien id say 90% of the time as aliens should be able to control the map easily
<hr />
<i><b>"Armor upgrades, Weapon upgrades outclass what alien upgrades have to offer. Marines continue to upgrade (until max obviously), meaning they get stronger and tougher."</b></i>
no, marines get arguably weaker depending on the loadout imo early game, marines if they dont try to expand too much, have an easier time. they just have to deal with mostly non carapace skulks and/or gorges.
<i><b>"Carapace is an one time upgrade that does piddly squat late game. Shade tech is garbage, hyper-mutation is useless."</b></i> carapace is great, i dare you to play late game without it. shade if used correctly is terrific. a good alien com using hive cloaking can utterly destroy a marine advance.
<i><b>"Besides carapace (and celerity a little), not a single upgrade helps Aliens in fighting."</b></i> i suggest you look at silence and regen. nothing is better than silence fading behind a marine advance and kiilling them one by one. regen is perfect if you want to play more aggressively.
<i><b>"A LMG foot marine and a skulk should always be on equal footing, but that stops happening as the game progresses."</b></i>
wow, no
lmg marine vs skulk will ALWAYS depend on several factors. they will NEVER be equal. and thats the way its supposed to be, and thats a big reason why we are stuck in the development circle we are in now because the devs have forgotten these simple facts: 1v1
skulk vs marine cqb should almost always go to marine (note i said ALMOST) marine vs skulk down corridor. given a marine with decent aim, a lone skulk should ALMOST ALWAYS DIE
this is why skulks are supposed to be foot soldiers and marines are supposed to attack in groups. and why threads like these make me laugh so much. cry more because a creature with 300 hp killed you and your lvl 1 lmg because you thought you could sneak all the way up the map knifing cysts.
<hr />
<i><b>"ARC spam. Literally 3 or 4 dozens arcs. They are absolutely one of the most frustrating thing in the game that, imo, takes absolutely no skill to use. It was completely asinine of an idea to give them mobility while still allowing them to shoot through walls. Onos can not even compare to the usefulness of ARCs as siege busters because they actually have to enter the Marine's base to do anything, and it won't be much against full tech marines. Is there ever going to be a limit to ARC numbers? Or are we going to see when this game goes live the marines are back to the NS1 model and just hold off long enough till they can mass ARCs and roll through the game again?"</b></i>
first off i for one would hate to have the ns1 model back even though it would be a hell of a lot easier to com. its already hard to get marines to guard my arcs as it is, but they move so gdamn slowly up the map... do you not understand that aliens would be WORSE off if i could just drop the old sieges on the other side a wall within range instead of having to walk them to the area? at least with mobile sieges aliens have a chance. aliens should almost never get surprised by seiges. especially since the last update. whips would handle this just pretty easily along with gorges (REGAINED YESSS!!!!!) ability to bile bomb. the only alien teams ive snuck up on were teams that didnt communicate and were losing anyway. if your team doesnt look at the big red blob headed towards your spawn and decides to act, then dont blame "balance" as for "3 or 4 dozens' of arcs... wts...
your team is letting marines sit on enough res to spit out DOZENS OF ARCS??!!
a marine with with this much res is going to win because youre not attacking, plain and simple. i dont care what the devs think about how aliens are supposed to play. if alien isnt pushing out and attacking from the instant the game begins, youre going to lose the majority of the time. alien teams learn one word: EXPAND
EXPAAAAANNNDDDDDDDDD
<i><b>"Couldn't even attack a base with the incredible amount of beacon spam, 4 or 5 observatories per room. We did a push with 3 onos and a couple gorges to try to take out a power node, which was a pain due to clipping. Power node went down and so did all 3 onos shortly after because fully tech marines melt them down like butter. Observatory spam is ridiculous. Am I missing it or wasn't Aliens suppose to get something that helps them teleport between hives?"</b></i>
and now we FINALLY get to the meat of the issue, your team let the marines sit on THREE BASES and get enough res to spam arcs and obvs. yes guy, when you fail to attack the other team, you will generally LOSE...
<i><b>"Build speed/repair speed of Marine is ridiculous, while gorge healing/building speed is awful."</b></i>
finally you make one decent point. well half of a point. gorge healing is fine. its the marine repair speed especially with upgraded mac. if i spit out 4 or so macs with upgrades my base is almost immune to damage. almost
<i><b>"Before some ###### chirps in and says "mebbe ya liek, shouldn't haev let them have all dat rt duuuuurrr". Like I said earlier, the game was even- resource nodes and bases."</b></i>
so you already know you let them sit on res, that this is bad, and youre.... complaining anyway? eh??
<i><b>"This fiasco started happening late game, about 40 minutes or so. Once marines are fully tech, they can just spam ARCs. Their "iWin without even having to try" button."</b></i>
yes, you let them sit on res for FOURTY MINUTES.. think about that, they sat in base and suckled on nodes for FOURTY MINUTES. IN THREE BASES.... THREEEEEEE BAAASSSEEEEESSSSSSSS.. You have failed to mention how many times alien team attempted to retake these bases, or drop hives.
<i><b>"But hell, all of this stuff has already been said before in other threads multiple times. Guess it just needs to be said again."</b></i> and ill say this again, when ppl stop making threads like these and use simple logic, we can finally have a readable forum again. christ
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i>Was trying to merge the triple-post, but forgot about the quote-block limit; apologies for breaking your post, Venem. -Align</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I've been playing a few games recently where an Onos is completely useless against a single jetpacking marine. Stomp won't work because the marine just hits a quick burst of jet pack and he's not affected; the tusk attack range is very short, too short to engage, and the Onos just doesn't close the distance fast enough. To top it all off, when the Onos gets low on health, he can't even disengage, because the marine is so mobile.
When playing the marine, I really dig this because my survivability goes way up. When countering as an alien, it's pathetic. To my mind there are only a few balancing nerfs:
1. Stomp affects a cone as targetted by the crosshairs, so you can select a flying marine, or a walking marine, but not both. 2. Tusk attack distance is increased, and the time to make the attack is decreased. 3. Onos "run" secondary ability acts more like celerity - takes a while to engage, but doesn't impede your turning ability as current ability does.
Any of these chances might improve the late game performance of the Onos, but as I've said elsewhere, I'd rather wait until all of the remaining marine equipment / alien abilities are added to the game before talking about balance nerfs.
<!--quoteo(post=1942520:date=Jun 9 2012, 09:31 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 9 2012, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Onos "run" secondary ability acts more like celerity - takes a while to engage, but doesn't impede your turning ability as current ability does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree on this notion specifically. Free celerity does not fit the Onos. It's bad enough that celerity conceptually overlaps with Blink, or Lerk flight, etc.
I should have been more specific. I wouldn't suggest that the Onos should get free celerity, I just don't think charge is that useful when your turning ability is null after only a few seconds. So the only thing I would suggest is that this impairment would be removed. It's actually my least favourite suggestion in terms of nerfing the Onos because it relates to the fact that they are getting owned by jetpack-wielding marines, rather than being able to defend themselves effectively.
<!--quoteo(post=1942530:date=Jun 10 2012, 01:29 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 10 2012, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I should have been more specific. I wouldn't suggest that the Onos should get free celerity, I just don't think charge is that useful when your turning ability is null after only a few seconds. So the only thing I would suggest is that this impairment would be removed. It's actually my least favourite suggestion in terms of nerfing the Onos because it relates to the fact that they are getting owned by jetpack-wielding marines, rather than being able to defend themselves effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how or why you would make onos an effective counter to jps =/. Games should encourage a diversity of lifeforms with usefulness throughout all phases of a game. Lerks fill the anti air gap and skulks with leap to an extent.
That being said, its not too hard to defend against jps. Go around and corner to force chasing jp into your range or abuse pre-stomping.
<!--quoteo(post=1942516:date=Jun 10 2012, 01:25 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 10 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lmg marine vs skulk will ALWAYS depend on several factors. they will NEVER be equal. and thats the way its supposed to be, and thats a big reason why we are stuck in the development circle we are in now because the devs have forgotten these simple facts: 1v1
skulk vs marine cqb should almost always go to marine (note i said ALMOST) marine vs skulk down corridor. given a marine with decent aim, a lone skulk should ALMOST ALWAYS DIE<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this a typo or are you saying that the solo marine should win both encounters? CQB should go aliens way, this is what being melee dominant means..they win CQB. Ranged should always be in the marines favour..which is it. Marines should be forced to team up more so than aliens, the alien side always was meant to have more autonomy and not need to be moving in packs constantly like marines (hence the different comm roles).
JP's need a counter, webs did this rather well when a gorge could also put up OC's to shoot at the marine when he fell down webbed.
The old bile bomb/acid rocket of the fade was awesome and one of the original features of NS, but apparently it gave teh aliens too much of an advantage as they could engage at range. I still miss those old bile rockets...*sniff* If aliens cant attack at range then they need to have the cool down between blink and swipe removed. It is very frustrating to get up close and personal by blinking/leaping and having to give the marine that 1/2 a second to shoot me before I can bite/swipe. Makes taking down a late game JP marine almost impossible.
The game is now stuck with marines turtling up trying to hold the aliens off for first 5 min, if they last past 15 min then expect the marines to simply tech up and push over the next 30 minutes. Arc trains are an issue, the old sieges needed a turret factory to be built, then the sieges (couple of sentries normally to help defend). All of this would take time and needed to be done close to a hive, forcing the marines to be building in hostile territory allowing aleins a chance to stop the marines building. Now the comm simply builds it all in base (nice and safe) then has 4-5 marines walk the completed arcs through the map. You now need atleast 6 aliens to take out the marines first before they can start stopping the arcs which continue to move in and destroy things as they go. The arc dynamic needs to change and they should no longer be mobile, I really thing we need to go back to the ns1 model for sieges/arcs. They are not mobile, they need a turrent factory or active power node to work. The 15-30 seconds it takes to build each arc gives the aliens a chance to defeat the invasion before it destroys them.
<!--quoteo(post=1942533:date=Jun 9 2012, 10:38 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 9 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how or why you would make onos an effective counter to jps =/. Games should encourage a diversity of lifeforms with usefulness throughout all phases of a game. Lerks fill the anti air gap and skulks with leap to an extent.
That being said, its not too hard to defend against jps. Go around and corner to force chasing jp into your range or abuse pre-stomping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that marine teams will go entirely equiped with jetpacks means aliens must have a strong counter. 1v1 a lerk can usually take on a jetpack with its current bite, after they nerf it things will be dubious. Aliens need strong counters to jetpacks, even if its reserved for 2-3 of the 5 lifeforms.
I agree the onos should not be able to counter jetpacks though. They should be the siege class that requires support.
Comments
If fade blink would be changed to be able to hit instantly after blink or faster than now, it would become more op when killing marines normally. Since even now its good way to kill marines by blinking in, hitting once, blinking out.
Onos stomp should disable arcs imo, maybe it should only be able to disable them if it stomps all the time. So not able to do damage alone and disable same time.
Stopped reading there.
Something wrong with that? Healingspray range is very large and can reach even roof in quite many places. Post was not meant to be for something like 1v1 situation. If there are fades running around after jps, gorge can be there as well spamming healingspray to damage the jps.
Really? Don't you guys remember what it was like before this?
You just died from fades and weren't sure how - it was over before you realized.
Allowing them to swipe right out of blink faster than currently allows them to get a free swipe every. single. time.
So unless you add a larger delay in between swipes, it just resulted in a marine dying before having any time to react.
And, for the record, you can still get jetpackers, you just need to utilize and time the momentum, meaning tap blink only at a 45 degree angle upwards.
Also, i personally feel leap for skulks gives them a run for their money as well, besides lerks who are the obvious counter. (for cheaper than a fade)
Not every lifeform should be the hard counter to jp.
That being said - lets brainstorm: If the fade had a new ability that replaced stab, and you wanted it geared towards dealing with JPers, what would it be?
That being said - lets brainstorm: If the fade had a new ability that replaced stab, and you wanted it geared towards dealing with JPers, what would it be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acidrocket could fill the slot as tier 3 ability. As it did in ns1.
This was/is a problem with the blink model, nothing else.
The frustrating attack delay after blink was an attempt to salvage teleport blink, but as with many of these attempts at fixing inherently broken mechanics, it just introduces new problems.
Giving a melee class a delay between using its movement ability and attacking is a pretty strange idea to begin with...
While i disagree, i think this is an ample time to provide an idea that works within these constraints, then, like i suggested.
What do you have in mind?
Acid rocket is good... but surely there's more creativity in you guys than drawing from something you've played before.
go go go
Not sure if this still exists tho, i at least remember that somebody (i think yuuki?) told me of this. (too lazy to look in the code now, even tho risking looking like an idiot)
While fade is not extreamly broken, its <u>not</u> fine, i know some ppl wont like to hear it - blink, something between ns1 blink or yuukis fademod, or a version based of shadowstep without any attack or movement delays would be a lot better. (no hidden mechanics or delays, to "fix" the problematic invincibility)
It is not apparent in first person that you are not yet completely "faded", while it is very obvious in 3rd person. (i.e. your enemy knows)
You take a % of damage going into blink for the first 1.4 sec or something like that, and while very low on energy , regardless of blinking, you are in this state "half blink" state of vulnerability.
You can notice your hands/claws/swiping tools of death will reflect this state of change.. but its not really intuitively obvious whats going on.
This has been brought to attention before, but i'll bring it up again.
/back to brainstorming!
What do you have in mind?
Acid rocket is good... but surely there's more creativity in you guys than drawing from something you've played before.
go go go<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest I never liked the acid rockets, for no good reason besides it looking bizarre. Perhaps fades could expell a mist that drains jetpack fuel, or causes jetpacks to cut out entirely forcing them to land before being used again? Not a trail as lerks have, but an AoE gas cloud in all directions for a very short distance and time. If you let this mist out mid-air, or in a spot you think the jetpack is about to goto, then it could be a useful debilitator.
I really miss the webs for gorges btw. Hydras can sort of hit jetpackers, but the damage isn't enough to stop them from zipping past or above.
The only good idea I've seen thusfar is to remove the cooldown from leap -> bite and blink -> swipe. Lerks are not a counter to jetpacks. When lerk bite is fixed, they're not going to stand up against jetpacks. If you think this is too overpowered for fades, then balance in other areas. Increase time between blinks and shadowsteps. Or increase energy costs. Etc.
I guess i could quote some of the earlier discussions for ideas here:
There are a couple different ways the fade could be modified to make it more skillful overall as a class, less abusable, and also maintain the relatively easier learning curve vs NS1.
-The fades current blink could be modified so that it no longer provides any kind of damage reduction. From there it could be changed to be a hive 1 ability.
-Shadow step could then be changed to offer the damage reduction/invulnerability that blink once did, however at a much higher energy cost (say 40 energy).
-This would allow intelligent fades to dodge shots but would not allow him to escape/enter situations nearly as easily, and would penalize him for making mistakes/over committing.
This change would encourage fades to play more as a team, and also for lone fades to be a lot more cautious as they would be vulnerable to ambushes or route blocking.
-Another idea possibly for fade blink is to make it so that when you are being shot in blink it will drain the fades energy, which would in turn make him more vulnerable. This will allow marines to damage the fade somewhat while he is blinking. With this change marines would have a reason to shot fades entering the room, as it would have the potential to weaken him, and also drain his energy which would cause additional shots to cause even more damage. I do think that this idea would be another quite frustrating restriction to put on the damage reduction blink system however, and would rather see one of the other two.
-The third idea that I have heard was to make fade blink work more like NS1, where its more of a momentum impulse then anything else. The current effects could remain and even just be slightly speed-up, which would still give the fade a small visual look of fading in and out, but he would be unable to stay in blink nearly as long as the energy drain would be per tick of blink. This would also involve the removal of the damage reduction system on blink, and removal of shadow step.
Something does need to be changed with the blink model for the fade to remain effective throughout the game better, otherwise it will always be somewhat overpowered/abuse able early, and relatively weak late game.
A gravitational-impacting vortex? I like the idea but then we'd have to understand its range and whether it impacts a large location or where jet-packers can simply avoid getting too close. Would be cool to see the entirety of a room that a vortex is in begins to shift from one dimension to another (Basically throwing the whole rooms gravity into a completely different-one. It would then impact both races but give Fades a controlled edge for adapting towards blinking.
The frustrating attack delay after blink was an attempt to salvage teleport blink, but as with many of these attempts at fixing inherently broken mechanics, it just introduces new problems.
Giving a melee class a delay between using its movement ability and attacking is a pretty strange idea to begin with...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, exactly.
People need to realize that the only times Marines have a high chance of survival against a fade onslaught is if they actually PAIR UP AS A TEAM and NOT go about the map soloing.
I've yet to see 1 fade successfully pick off 1 marine within a group of marines firing before it died. The only viable option, is to flank (as a Fade) from a different route. Fades aren't as invincible as they were in NS1 against LMG's, lets understand that.
That said, the blink model has to change because:
--Not a formidable counter against Jetpacks
--NS2 Fade is vulnerable as it is against a level 3 marine.
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the fade needs is 1 SINGLE magazine from a Level 3 LMG to kill it.
As for the current Vortex idea, I really don't see the point, especially vs. Jetpacks.
Why put a Marine in a different dimension that renders him useless? Why not just kill the ###### right there and be done with it?
And besides, isn't that what most people want against a menacing Marine, let alone a Jetpacking one who currently lacks a proper counter (most notablly the current blink system)?
The only other option I can think of for Vortex, is that it should either disable the Jetpack for 1 (2, tops) second, or drain its fuel by X amount.
It's like 27-29 bullets technically to kill a carapace fade with a lvl3 LMG. But that probably never happens due to the tickrates declining by the time fades are out and thus the poor hitreg allowing them to soak way more damage than that.
Trying to fix an inherently broken mechanic is what brought us to this point in the first place. Did you even read my post?
As I've suggested in other threads, the Fade should be:
Slot1: Same blink model as NS1.
Slot2: Shadowstep.
Slot3: Something fun, that isn't another stupid disabling tool like the proposed vortex.
Say early game the blink swipe delay remains as it currently stands.
Then a research option later in game to remove the delay to help with dealing with jet packs?
This may aboid the problem of fades being OP early game and UP late game?
Hopefully the end product does see marines slightly more powerful against aliens at start and aliens a heap more powerful at the end.
Say early game the blink swipe delay remains as it currently stands.
Then a research option later in game to remove the delay to help with dealing with jet packs?
This may aboid the problem of fades being OP early game and UP late game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all.
Now the Delay was added as a fix(patch?) for the fade blink, since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe. I think it would be a better idea to simply to make fade blink work without the need of any delay instead of keep adding patches to it to fix its problem. The issue is how the blink works, the focus point should be there.
The problems are not always visual on the surface, its important to dig into whats truly causing the problems before working on them.
wanted to quote this because ill be bringing this point up MANY times
<i><b>"Marine tech is superior to Aliens."</b></i>
not even close
1v1
lvl 1-2 upgraded marine > lerk
lvl 3 marine > fade > onos
team tactics are what loses games for alien id say 90% of the time as aliens should be able to control the map easily
<hr />
<i><b>"Armor upgrades, Weapon upgrades outclass what alien upgrades have to offer. Marines continue to upgrade (until max obviously), meaning they get stronger and tougher."</b></i>
no, marines get arguably weaker depending on the loadout imo
early game, marines if they dont try to expand too much, have an easier time. they just have to deal with mostly non carapace skulks and/or gorges.
<i><b>"Carapace is an one time upgrade that does piddly squat late game. Shade tech is garbage, hyper-mutation is useless."</b></i>
carapace is great, i dare you to play late game without it. shade if used correctly is terrific. a good alien com using hive cloaking can utterly destroy a marine advance.
<i><b>"Besides carapace (and celerity a little), not a single upgrade helps Aliens in fighting."</b></i>
i suggest you look at silence and regen. nothing is better than silence fading behind a marine advance and kiilling them one by one. regen is perfect if you want to play more aggressively.
<i><b>"A LMG foot marine and a skulk should always be on equal footing, but that stops happening as the game progresses."</b></i>
wow, no
lmg marine vs skulk will ALWAYS depend on several factors. they will NEVER be equal.
and thats the way its supposed to be, and thats a big reason why we are stuck in the development circle we are in now because the devs have forgotten these simple facts:
1v1
skulk vs marine cqb should almost always go to marine (note i said ALMOST)
marine vs skulk down corridor. given a marine with decent aim, a lone skulk should ALMOST ALWAYS DIE
this is why skulks are supposed to be foot soldiers and marines are supposed to attack in groups. and why threads like these make me laugh so much. cry more because a creature with 300 hp killed you and your lvl 1 lmg because you thought you could sneak all the way up the map knifing cysts.
<hr />
<i><b>"ARC spam. Literally 3 or 4 dozens arcs. They are absolutely one of the most frustrating thing in the game that, imo, takes absolutely no skill to use. It was completely asinine of an idea to give them mobility while still allowing them to shoot through walls. Onos can not even compare to the usefulness of ARCs as siege busters because they actually have to enter the Marine's base to do anything, and it won't be much against full tech marines. Is there ever going to be a limit to ARC numbers? Or are we going to see when this game goes live the marines are back to the NS1 model and just hold off long enough till they can mass ARCs and roll through the game again?"</b></i>
first off i for one would hate to have the ns1 model back even though it would be a hell of a lot easier to com. its already hard to get marines to guard my arcs as it is, but they move so gdamn slowly up the map... do you not understand that aliens would be WORSE off if i could just drop the old sieges on the other side a wall within range instead of having to walk them to the area? at least with mobile sieges aliens have a chance. aliens should almost never get surprised by seiges. especially since the last update. whips would handle this just pretty easily along with gorges (REGAINED YESSS!!!!!) ability to bile bomb. the only alien teams ive snuck up on were teams that didnt communicate and were losing anyway. if your team doesnt look at the big red blob headed towards your spawn and decides to act, then dont blame "balance" as for "3 or 4 dozens' of arcs... wts...
your team is letting marines sit on enough res to spit out DOZENS OF ARCS??!!
a marine with with this much res is going to win because youre not attacking, plain and simple. i dont care what the devs think about how aliens are supposed to play. if alien isnt pushing out and attacking from the instant the game begins, youre going to lose the majority of the time. alien teams learn one word: EXPAND
EXPAAAAANNNDDDDDDDDD
<i><b>"Couldn't even attack a base with the incredible amount of beacon spam, 4 or 5 observatories per room. We did a push with 3 onos and a couple gorges to try to take out a power node, which was a pain due to clipping. Power node went down and so did all 3 onos shortly after because fully tech marines melt them down like butter. Observatory spam is ridiculous. Am I missing it or wasn't Aliens suppose to get something that helps them teleport between hives?"</b></i>
and now we FINALLY get to the meat of the issue, your team let the marines sit on THREE BASES and get enough res to spam arcs and obvs. yes guy, when you fail to attack the other team, you will generally LOSE...
<i><b>"Build speed/repair speed of Marine is ridiculous, while gorge healing/building speed is awful."</b></i>
finally you make one decent point. well half of a point. gorge healing is fine. its the marine repair speed especially with upgraded mac. if i spit out 4 or so macs with upgrades my base is almost immune to damage. almost
<i><b>"Before some ###### chirps in and says "mebbe ya liek, shouldn't haev let them have all dat rt duuuuurrr". Like I said earlier, the game was even- resource nodes and bases."</b></i>
so you already know you let them sit on res, that this is bad, and youre.... complaining anyway? eh??
<i><b>"This fiasco started happening late game, about 40 minutes or so. Once marines are fully tech, they can just spam ARCs. Their "iWin without even having to try" button."</b></i>
yes, you let them sit on res for FOURTY MINUTES.. think about that, they sat in base and suckled on nodes for FOURTY MINUTES. IN THREE BASES.... THREEEEEEE BAAASSSEEEEESSSSSSSS.. You have failed to mention how many times alien team attempted to retake these bases, or drop hives.
<i><b>"But hell, all of this stuff has already been said before in other threads multiple times. Guess it just needs to be said again."</b></i>
and ill say this again, when ppl stop making threads like these and use simple logic, we can finally have a readable forum again. christ
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i>Was trying to merge the triple-post, but forgot about the quote-block limit; apologies for breaking your post, Venem.
-Align</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
When playing the marine, I really dig this because my survivability goes way up. When countering as an alien, it's pathetic. To my mind there are only a few balancing nerfs:
1. Stomp affects a cone as targetted by the crosshairs, so you can select a flying marine, or a walking marine, but not both.
2. Tusk attack distance is increased, and the time to make the attack is decreased.
3. Onos "run" secondary ability acts more like celerity - takes a while to engage, but doesn't impede your turning ability as current ability does.
Any of these chances might improve the late game performance of the Onos, but as I've said elsewhere, I'd rather wait until all of the remaining marine equipment / alien abilities are added to the game before talking about balance nerfs.
I disagree on this notion specifically. Free celerity does not fit the Onos. It's bad enough that celerity conceptually overlaps with Blink, or Lerk flight, etc.
I'm not sure how or why you would make onos an effective counter to jps =/. Games should encourage a diversity of lifeforms with usefulness throughout all phases of a game. Lerks fill the anti air gap and skulks with leap to an extent.
That being said, its not too hard to defend against jps. Go around and corner to force chasing jp into your range or abuse pre-stomping.
and thats the way its supposed to be, and thats a big reason why we are stuck in the development circle we are in now because the devs have forgotten these simple facts:
1v1
skulk vs marine cqb should almost always go to marine (note i said ALMOST)
marine vs skulk down corridor. given a marine with decent aim, a lone skulk should ALMOST ALWAYS DIE<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this a typo or are you saying that the solo marine should win both encounters?
CQB should go aliens way, this is what being melee dominant means..they win CQB.
Ranged should always be in the marines favour..which is it.
Marines should be forced to team up more so than aliens, the alien side always was meant to have more autonomy and not need to be moving in packs constantly like marines (hence the different comm roles).
JP's need a counter, webs did this rather well when a gorge could also put up OC's to shoot at the marine when he fell down webbed.
The old bile bomb/acid rocket of the fade was awesome and one of the original features of NS, but apparently it gave teh aliens too much of an advantage as they could engage at range. I still miss those old bile rockets...*sniff*
If aliens cant attack at range then they need to have the cool down between blink and swipe removed. It is very frustrating to get up close and personal by blinking/leaping and having to give the marine that 1/2 a second to shoot me before I can bite/swipe.
Makes taking down a late game JP marine almost impossible.
The game is now stuck with marines turtling up trying to hold the aliens off for first 5 min, if they last past 15 min then expect the marines to simply tech up and push over the next 30 minutes.
Arc trains are an issue, the old sieges needed a turret factory to be built, then the sieges (couple of sentries normally to help defend).
All of this would take time and needed to be done close to a hive, forcing the marines to be building in hostile territory allowing aleins a chance to stop the marines building.
Now the comm simply builds it all in base (nice and safe) then has 4-5 marines walk the completed arcs through the map.
You now need atleast 6 aliens to take out the marines first before they can start stopping the arcs which continue to move in and destroy things as they go.
The arc dynamic needs to change and they should no longer be mobile, I really thing we need to go back to the ns1 model for sieges/arcs. They are not mobile, they need a turrent factory or active power node to work.
The 15-30 seconds it takes to build each arc gives the aliens a chance to defeat the invasion before it destroys them.
That being said, its not too hard to defend against jps. Go around and corner to force chasing jp into your range or abuse pre-stomping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that marine teams will go entirely equiped with jetpacks means aliens must have a strong counter. 1v1 a lerk can usually take on a jetpack with its current bite, after they nerf it things will be dubious. Aliens need strong counters to jetpacks, even if its reserved for 2-3 of the 5 lifeforms.
I agree the onos should not be able to counter jetpacks though. They should be the siege class that requires support.