Still needs some work around the tp, but this is where that is going. Apart from if you go up the window, to get a clear view of the hive you have to go up to the top level, you can't see it from the stairs. I think this is going to make the hive much more valuable. Bridge hive is supposed to be a risky, forward front hive if the team wants to contain the marines. The powerpoint closer to the marine side, still giving power to that intermediary place leading to cargo, is going to make bridge valuable for marine pg into cargo even more. I think these little changes are going to make bridge an important area to hold for either teams. Right side of the map is supposed to be a more direct front between the two teams, with aliens getting loading as 2 hive, shifts the focus to the left side, but marines can counter through right and should be able to have more ease going straight for main.
This is the little scenario for bridge with current spawning, but I am planning on doing some other changes using two random spawns for both team which will give 4 scenarios to the map, also moving engine tp and create a tp in hub giving aliens two mains (cargo and loading) and three choices for forward hives (bridge, hub and going to leave the third unrevealed for now :p).
Marine mains will be (obviously!) quarters and backup. So I am also working on making them equivalent yet different advantages. I am hoping to prototype this quick and get some testing done before an "official" evilbob release.
Long time since I've spent a day mapping! I've greyboxed hub tp and x tp which called for a marine access up that ledge, this is definitely going to need some testing! All these screens are of WIP, the map is getting some serious detailing, and some nice trim work as things are moving. I can tell already b3 is going to be some crazy map! Never have Marines and Kharaa been so close and personal!
The ceiling in this shot is fairly flat in that area making the light prop seem out of place, perhaps you could make it seem more detailed perhaps? Add a few beams going across it, or a wire going to the light e.t.c, anything to break it up a little and seem more interesting. Also the texture going across the room there going over the door, it's slightly odd in that it's scale is off in different areas, perhaps adjusting it so it's all even?
Other than that it's all looking quite solid, I like it, good work.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Haha Janos I knew you were going to say something about that ceiling! As things move on the upper parts will get the proper treatment. This is some quick mapping getting things in place so I can get a test version up, and give an idea of gameplay changes for b3. The visual upgrade will take more time and I am planning a release for Summer. I am planning on spring break to prototype all the gameplay changes so I can get my favorite clans Duplex and Archaea to balance it out ;)
I have the feeling people tend to over-engineer ceilings. Look at ceilings in real life, perhaps the one above you right now. Looks rather flat doesn't it. Most places have ceilings that don't look like a maze of beams, wires and pipes.
<!--quoteo(post=1912294:date=Mar 12 2012, 02:05 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Mar 12 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have the feeling people tend to over-engineer ceilings. Look at ceilings in real life, perhaps the one above you right now. Looks rather flat doesn't it. Most places have ceilings that don't look like a maze of beams, wires and pipes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isn't real life to be fair, while we do draw inspiration from real life when developing maps and sometimes it does suit the current theme, for the most part when you go to an industrial area like an oil rig (Which the majority of the areas in NS2 are based around in terms of aesthetics) or a smelting factory then the ceilings are covered with a maze of beams and pipe work. All the maps are based on industrial areas anyway, look at tram, mineshaft, summit e.t.c try and imagine what the maps would look like without those "over-engineered" ceilings, they would look completely different, not necessarily better.
Also maps in terms of aesthetics generally look rather bare and flat if the ceilings and or brushwork on the walls are nothing but a wall with a texture on them, they would look a lot like the original half life maps, game-play reasons on the other hand would suit a skulks wall walking really well.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I think one of the major strengths of ns2_turtle, currently, is the absence of too much 'junk' around the map. It makes it a lot easier to actually play the game and to not get stuck on things all the time.
While maps should be aesthetically pleasing, they should also be functional. This is an area where the current 'official' mappers have dropped the ball, in my opinion. The maps are bad performance and difficult to play the game on (wallwalking/walljumping/walking at all). Although to be fair to them, I am sure most of these issues will be worked out before release.
ns2_turtle's strength is that it looks good (the environment is interesting if you stop to look at it), but it also supports and encourages the player to...play the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1912430:date=Mar 13 2012, 01:02 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 13 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think one of the major strengths of ns2_turtle, currently, is the absence of too much 'junk' around the map. It makes it a lot easier to actually play the game and to not get stuck on things all the time.
While maps should be aesthetically pleasing, they should also be functional. This is an area where the current 'official' mappers have dropped the ball, in my opinion. The maps are bad performance and difficult to play the game on (wallwalking/walljumping/walking at all). Although to be fair to them, I am sure most of these issues will be worked out before release.
ns2_turtle's strength is that it looks good (the environment is interesting if you stop to look at it), but it also supports and encourages the player to...play the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree that game-play should really trump aesthetics any day, I mean what's the point in the level looking good if it plays like crap? But for the most part people seem to be looking at this from a skulk perspective, an while yeah the game should have that particular class in mind (as well as the onos' size) when designing each area it shouldn't have to entirely gimp the look and style of the map in favor of one class. So far in most games I've played online the skulks have had next to zero issue making the Marines look like fools, an these games were played on Tram, Summit e.t.c. so from what I can gather it's mostly an issue of personal skill at traversing the maps (Not trying to insinuate anything there). I may be wrong entirely but since I play mostly Marines and the odd time I play Kharaa (Most servers the Aliens walk over marines so it's more of a question of team balance than marine stacking) I've never really had any issue wall-walking or getting into positions where I can ambush the Marines walking past from a great height.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1912472:date=Mar 13 2012, 04:20 AM:name=Janos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Janos @ Mar 13 2012, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I agree that game-play should really trump aesthetics any day, I mean what's the point in the level looking good if it plays like crap? But for the most part people seem to be looking at this from a skulk perspective, an while yeah the game should have that particular class in mind (as well as the onos' size) when designing each area it shouldn't have to entirely gimp the look and style of the map in favor of one class. So far in most games I've played online the skulks have had next to zero issue making the Marines look like fools, an these games were played on Tram, Summit e.t.c. so from what I can gather it's mostly an issue of personal skill at traversing the maps (Not trying to insinuate anything there). I may be wrong entirely but since I play mostly Marines and the odd time I play Kharaa (Most servers the Aliens walk over marines so it's more of a question of team balance than marine stacking) I've never really had any issue wall-walking or getting into positions where I can ambush the Marines walking past from a great height.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While the example I used was from a skulk perspective, I have the same feeling as a marine too. On the official maps it is very easy to get 'stuck' on things and while you do learn to avoid certain areas it is frustrating. Even as a marine, all my focus is spent blanking the environment I can see and simply spotting aliens. I cannot afford to admire the surroundings, as that could cost me my life (or that of a team mate). Past the first few times you play a map, there is little to no thought put into how it looks. Most of the visuals in a map are processed subconsciously, people 'feel' the impression they have of a map.
As for the skulk movement, that is more difficult. It is highly personal I guess. I make skulking my speciality and I am quite successful at that. The strength of the walljumping in the last patch (b199) was that you could jump (and gain speed) the instant you contacted a surfance. This reduced the impact that messy map design had on gameplay, as you were not required to stay on and/or move along a surface. What I consider to be the beauty of ns2_turtle is that at its base it is a very simple/squared map, yet this is hidden very cleverly from the player.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
Thanks Arga and Janos and everyone!
There are many ways a mapper achieves what he wants to achieve, and there are many philosophies of design. I am happy that there is a place for different maps across the community and I had never thought ns2_turtle was going to become a map praised by the competitive players. But I see why now.
I am kind of on my own turf when it concerns mapping. I see myself as a passionate amateur, and I have no want to be become professional, nor do I feel the need to prove anything to anyone. The way I map follows my own rules, even if I am inspired by what other people do, I do my stuff in my way from my many experiences in life. When I map I connect more to my experiences than with 'designs rules of a map in 2012'.
My first experience in mapping was in the early days of Half-life. We had two computers in the house, and one that was an old office computer of an old architecture without a graphic card I believe, which wasn't very good at handling HL. Yet me and my little bro, would hook them up on serial cable for some games. The HL maps weren't good for us, they were too big, we would spend most of our time looking for each other, and too heavy for our computers. So I made some real simple maps, basically two spawns and a central area, no detail, no nothing. Just a space where me and my bro could compete one on one. I think it was the most challenging map ever, not because of the map itself, but because the map didn't give anywhere to hide. So the challenge was my brother. I never had so much fun in any fps, the game disappeared and it was just me and my bro challenging each other.
I think that simple map is really the root of my philosophy in map making. I don't make maps for visuals, to me the visuals are a little spice, to give more depth to the map, but I understand the visuals are clearly secondary. I make maps so people, who want to have fun and games, have a space where they can express their creativity and their own strategy. The rooms in ns2_turtle, are not designed with the visuals in mind, but on a certain experience. Cargo for example is how I imagine the best place for aliens to take down marines, it has a lots of high cover skulks can climb and run around, it is a wide space for lurks and fades, yet it has chokepoints on the ground level which force marines close together. Cargo is shaped like a U, connected in the middle which also allows aliens to flank the enemy where ever he comes from.
Each place in the map is designed after the experience the player will have there. I also love to play with strong contrasts, like small corridors which lead to big open spaces. The map in itself is an expression of aliens vs marines. Marines have their open spaces to get across the map and aliens have their cramped corridors. Alien areas have a lot of vertical walls which forces marines to take a long route around while aliens can shortcut through, Marine areas have long halls which favors turret placement even if they are not used much.
So when I design areas I think of the experience the player will have in them. I have a bigger picture of what the whole is, a ship in ns2_turtle, so I mold that experience with the idea of what that place could be in a ship, with a lot of liberties. It is not a ship I am trying to build but a map.
So every piece in the map sort of has a gameplay idea attached to it. The beams in quarters hinders alien movement, while the huge beams in hub are like an open vent which allows aliens to move across the space. The pipes in Engine give aliens a space, cover and movement in what is a big open area. In early game Marines have to go around bridge to get to the tp, while with jetpacks they can shortcut straight to the tp.
So the map is the expression of a gameplay experience. And with ns2_turtle, my first full scale map, I put every gameplay experience I could imagine. I have two more ideas for maps which will be more focused, but ns2_turtle is for me the ultimate NS2 playground. That is how I imagined it. And if a bare cube satisfies that gameplay experience in a particular place, then a cube it must be.
There is a place for example which is one of my favorites design-wise, and I think this will show you that bare cubes have their place. It is one of my favorites because it is such a simple place, yet serves as a transition between the 'intelligent' space of bridge, and the 'rough' space of cargo.
A little edit on b3. The hub tp. Surely not the easiest hive to get, and it might be a good relocation spot, but will definitely spice up the game and call for its own strategies!
- Reworked lights on the whole map. (tho far from perfect, needs still a lot more work, finetuning, color highlights etc. - depending if ppl like it so far, i will continue(which means it will maybe also go into b3)... or not.)
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I know you don't care that much about the visuals. But i think the weakest part of your map, visualy speaking, are the ceilings. They are flat, and usually have a texture that doesn't really match..
Anyway, keep up the good job, its great to see good community maps :)
yeah the ceilings do look kind of flat. how hard would it be at this point to completely redo the ceilings and maybe have like hanging pipes and stuff that skulks can hide on up there?
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
@Koruyo: I love what you did there! Everything could always do with more work and you will find that once you think you're finished, a whole new dimension opens up :p Anyway what you did is really cool. I really like your use of atmospherics, where it struck me the most was in gen. The whole map feels much more spooky and atmospheric! I feel what you did shows me a whole different way of seeing the map. Like we talked it went from Nintendo style to NS2 style, and now I feel how things look flat.
It moves on nicely to Asraniel's and Paradoxum's points. First off, these last two screens of the 'neck' area don't really show places where skulks would find an advantage of hiding. Hub and Loading do have more areas fit for ambushing. But I see your points. As things move on, I do uplift the visuals and add more details. The layout and flow of this map was the first thing I really focused on. And for the previous versions, ceilings weren't really a priority as there was a lot of stuff to do beforehand.
Because of my work method, I don't really need to 'redo' the ceilings, it is more of an addition and when I feel it is the priority I will put more work into the ceilings. I have been experimenting with different screen recorders and wish to bring a few videos to show how I work, which I think would be a nice complementary to the existing videos. I haven't been very lucky yet, I recorded myself creating another ladder like the screen above but when I stopped the recording, I was out of memory for compression and the recording was lost... :( So if anyone has a tip for a good screen recorder (I have tried fraps but it doesn't record the screen, just one window from the editor, and camstudio which records well but with which I don't think I could do long videos due to memory... maybe editing the setting...)
little edit: I love the RR Koruyo! I knew the RR in turtle was lacking as it was just quick job to get something out there till I put some real time with it, but now... It is the most awesome RR of all!
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
A little update on b3.
I have decided to go for a limited color scheme, to get that NS2 feel. People are going to be happy, here is some work on ceilings and a limited color scheme:p I think I will apply the cargo color scheme to the whole map, as it is the one I like the most, it is a warm, brownish/orangish which I think also goes well with an earthy idea of turtles. I have tried a greenish color scheme but wasn't satisfied with its cold feel.
I have been working mostly around Loading recently and the area still has some work to do.
Here is a little close-up of what you see in the back, for those that know the map. This leads to an extension of tech, there is a ladder going up which you can't see from this angle.
This again needs some work, I just couldn't wait to show you guys the extention to tech, which features some nice space for a forward base, and a door into cargo similar to the situation in Loading, and a resource point.
Just to clear things up as well, as people might of misunderstood me. I care a lot about visuals. I really want to make something that looks nice, but, it is not my priority. My priority is creating gameplay space, and from there I imagine the visuals. The gameplay space is the root, and then I try to make it look nice. I don't make the map from a visual approach, based on visual elements, and then imagine the space to hold it. I find this has greatly benefited me in developing this map as I have been able to edit a lot of stuff when the gameplay lacked. Now that the map has been extensively played, and gameplay features tweaked for epic games (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGTyWSY3i6c" target="_blank">See this nice game on NS2HD</a>), I am focusing on adding more detail, trims, pipes and whatnot.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
I've been turtle'd!
I've had my first experiences of Turtle in the last few days playing in the ENSL gathers. It's a great map. I'm looking forward to playing on the newest versions. B2C1 I think is the version we are playing at the moment.
My mapping philosophy is kind of similar. I like to make spaces, without a pre-conceived idea of what they will look like. I just try and create shapes and flow around the map. Then the concept of the rooms fills out afterwards, until eventually I see just how I want it to look :)
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
That version is one of Koruyo's edits, who has taken the time to add a few gameplay features and redo the lighting. For b3 I am actually basing myself on Koruyo's lighting. I do not have b2c1 version myself.
Koruyo, if you are satisfied with a version and feel it is good to release on a wide scale, please post a link and I will update the duplex gaming page to make things easier for distribution.
I restate that if someone wants to edit the map for enjoyment purposes only, I will only be honored! And if it brings something to gameplay I will surely consider including my take on it for b3.
Speaking of which, do you wish to see the vent from loading to engine in B3? Since the door can't be locked anymore, does it bring much?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
I so appreciate that you're working with a limited color scheme. You're making progress at "limiting" your map. No coincidence that the map is looking a fair bit better as a result. Don't forget to add in one bold complimentary color. Try to think outside the box a bit. You've got an orange there, but it's a very popular choice for a primary. Maybe a green that would suit the name of the map and your earlier lighting schemes. Just a suggestion. I do think that overall, the next step is a limited texture scheme. There is a mixture of clean and dirty textures in these new shots that I find unsatisfying.
Please, don't think of focusing your artistic choices as a limitation, however. What is going on is simplifying, perfecting.
As for how to do it -- you've got an elevator shaft there. That should be dirty. Outside of it, what's going on? A hallway? A corridor? Might that be a bit cleaner? This is how I'd approach it. To get brutally specific with it, I'd say use 4-5 textures throughout the whole map. At first. Then get concerned with individual rooms, and give them a couple, 1-2 textures that are unique to them. That's how you could benchmark it. Simple is good.
That way, when people remember turtle, they will recall the layout, and a few walls and rooms and areas with a solid color to them. That's the identity you need to choose for the map.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
Well they are limitations, don't be afraid of calling it by what it is. But constraints create the project as we say in architecture ;)
Turtle was mostly an experiment for me, and trying loads of different things helped me understand what I like, which textures I like, what colors I like and all that good stuff. It is also a good thing to go a little crazy and try very different stuff, then you can see what you like and it also opens your mind about different possibilities.
It is a very difficult process to nail down something to its essence. At first I really wanted to experiment all kinds of stuff. And I was much more serious about gameplay. Now that the gameplay has been nailed to a nice sweet spot, I do want to take this to the next level and give players the same recognition with visuals.
I understand very well your points fmpone, but I didn't want to go in that direction yet. All in good time ;)
Thanks for taking the time to post that!
As for brown as a primary choice, true it is a common one. I could try to get green working but... but... wait a minute! This makes me think about a great error I have been doing and explains some issues I have been having with lighting! I've been working with the paint color wheel because I am more of a paper guy than computer artist!! But this is RGB!! LOL! Thanks fmpone!! you just gave me a serious epiphany! That's why when I tried to get a green color scheme things looked weird!
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Every update looks even more awesome. You're really progressing on the visuals, great to see that! It would be awesome if you uploaded Koruyo's latest version to duplexgaming, since that's what is being played in the gathers at the moment. Keep on rocking! Can't wait for b3.
I also prefer the dark orange. However, as you simplify your lighting I think you'll start getting more deliberate with your texture choices here. I like that. There is still the chaos between clean textures/dirty textures, and I'd recommend picking one style for one area (in an area like this, grittier textures would seem to make sense to me), but I'm sure you'll consider it.
EvilBob kindly allowed us access to it for a European scrim between Duplex and Archaea which you can find <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117645&hl=" target="_blank"><u><b>here.</b></u></a>
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
Just to point out, a lot of the changes done on this version are prototypes to see different possibilities and this playtest was to see how they could work out.
Thanks for this vid! It and the playtest was very informative. A lot of work to do that will be greatly influenced from these points! :p I think what we will see for final is keep Cargo as single alien spawn and have two marine spawns once backup area (including radiator and reactor view) has been pretty much redone to mimic the situation in Quarters.
Comments
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Still needs some work around the tp, but this is where that is going. Apart from if you go up the window, to get a clear view of the hive you have to go up to the top level, you can't see it from the stairs. I think this is going to make the hive much more valuable. Bridge hive is supposed to be a risky, forward front hive if the team wants to contain the marines. The powerpoint closer to the marine side, still giving power to that intermediary place leading to cargo, is going to make bridge valuable for marine pg into cargo even more. I think these little changes are going to make bridge an important area to hold for either teams. Right side of the map is supposed to be a more direct front between the two teams, with aliens getting loading as 2 hive, shifts the focus to the left side, but marines can counter through right and should be able to have more ease going straight for main.
This is the little scenario for bridge with current spawning, but I am planning on doing some other changes using two random spawns for both team which will give 4 scenarios to the map, also moving engine tp and create a tp in hub giving aliens two mains (cargo and loading) and three choices for forward hives (bridge, hub and going to leave the third unrevealed for now :p).
Marine mains will be (obviously!) quarters and backup. So I am also working on making them equivalent yet different advantages. I am hoping to prototype this quick and get some testing done before an "official" evilbob release.
edit:
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Long time since I've spent a day mapping! I've greyboxed hub tp and x tp which called for a marine access up that ledge, this is definitely going to need some testing! All these screens are of WIP, the map is getting some serious detailing, and some nice trim work as things are moving. I can tell already b3 is going to be some crazy map! Never have Marines and Kharaa been so close and personal!
The ceiling in this shot is fairly flat in that area making the light prop seem out of place, perhaps you could make it seem more detailed perhaps? Add a few beams going across it, or a wire going to the light e.t.c, anything to break it up a little and seem more interesting.
Also the texture going across the room there going over the door, it's slightly odd in that it's scale is off in different areas, perhaps adjusting it so it's all even?
Other than that it's all looking quite solid, I like it, good work.
But this isn't real life to be fair, while we do draw inspiration from real life when developing maps and sometimes it does suit the current theme, for the most part when you go to an industrial area like an oil rig (Which the majority of the areas in NS2 are based around in terms of aesthetics) or a smelting factory then the ceilings are covered with a maze of beams and pipe work. All the maps are based on industrial areas anyway, look at tram, mineshaft, summit e.t.c try and imagine what the maps would look like without those "over-engineered" ceilings, they would look completely different, not necessarily better.
Also maps in terms of aesthetics generally look rather bare and flat if the ceilings and or brushwork on the walls are nothing but a wall with a texture on them, they would look a lot like the original half life maps, game-play reasons on the other hand would suit a skulks wall walking really well.
While maps should be aesthetically pleasing, they should also be functional. This is an area where the current 'official' mappers have dropped the ball, in my opinion. The maps are bad performance and difficult to play the game on (wallwalking/walljumping/walking at all). Although to be fair to them, I am sure most of these issues will be worked out before release.
ns2_turtle's strength is that it looks good (the environment is interesting if you stop to look at it), but it also supports and encourages the player to...play the game.
While maps should be aesthetically pleasing, they should also be functional. This is an area where the current 'official' mappers have dropped the ball, in my opinion. The maps are bad performance and difficult to play the game on (wallwalking/walljumping/walking at all). Although to be fair to them, I am sure most of these issues will be worked out before release.
ns2_turtle's strength is that it looks good (the environment is interesting if you stop to look at it), but it also supports and encourages the player to...play the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree that game-play should really trump aesthetics any day, I mean what's the point in the level looking good if it plays like crap? But for the most part people seem to be looking at this from a skulk perspective, an while yeah the game should have that particular class in mind (as well as the onos' size) when designing each area it shouldn't have to entirely gimp the look and style of the map in favor of one class. So far in most games I've played online the skulks have had next to zero issue making the Marines look like fools, an these games were played on Tram, Summit e.t.c. so from what I can gather it's mostly an issue of personal skill at traversing the maps (Not trying to insinuate anything there).
I may be wrong entirely but since I play mostly Marines and the odd time I play Kharaa (Most servers the Aliens walk over marines so it's more of a question of team balance than marine stacking) I've never really had any issue wall-walking or getting into positions where I can ambush the Marines walking past from a great height.
I may be wrong entirely but since I play mostly Marines and the odd time I play Kharaa (Most servers the Aliens walk over marines so it's more of a question of team balance than marine stacking) I've never really had any issue wall-walking or getting into positions where I can ambush the Marines walking past from a great height.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While the example I used was from a skulk perspective, I have the same feeling as a marine too. On the official maps it is very easy to get 'stuck' on things and while you do learn to avoid certain areas it is frustrating. Even as a marine, all my focus is spent blanking the environment I can see and simply spotting aliens. I cannot afford to admire the surroundings, as that could cost me my life (or that of a team mate). Past the first few times you play a map, there is little to no thought put into how it looks. Most of the visuals in a map are processed subconsciously, people 'feel' the impression they have of a map.
As for the skulk movement, that is more difficult. It is highly personal I guess. I make skulking my speciality and I am quite successful at that. The strength of the walljumping in the last patch (b199) was that you could jump (and gain speed) the instant you contacted a surfance. This reduced the impact that messy map design had on gameplay, as you were not required to stay on and/or move along a surface. What I consider to be the beauty of ns2_turtle is that at its base it is a very simple/squared map, yet this is hidden very cleverly from the player.
There are many ways a mapper achieves what he wants to achieve, and there are many philosophies of design. I am happy that there is a place for different maps across the community and I had never thought ns2_turtle was going to become a map praised by the competitive players. But I see why now.
I am kind of on my own turf when it concerns mapping. I see myself as a passionate amateur, and I have no want to be become professional, nor do I feel the need to prove anything to anyone. The way I map follows my own rules, even if I am inspired by what other people do, I do my stuff in my way from my many experiences in life. When I map I connect more to my experiences than with 'designs rules of a map in 2012'.
My first experience in mapping was in the early days of Half-life. We had two computers in the house, and one that was an old office computer of an old architecture without a graphic card I believe, which wasn't very good at handling HL. Yet me and my little bro, would hook them up on serial cable for some games. The HL maps weren't good for us, they were too big, we would spend most of our time looking for each other, and too heavy for our computers. So I made some real simple maps, basically two spawns and a central area, no detail, no nothing. Just a space where me and my bro could compete one on one. I think it was the most challenging map ever, not because of the map itself, but because the map didn't give anywhere to hide. So the challenge was my brother. I never had so much fun in any fps, the game disappeared and it was just me and my bro challenging each other.
I think that simple map is really the root of my philosophy in map making. I don't make maps for visuals, to me the visuals are a little spice, to give more depth to the map, but I understand the visuals are clearly secondary. I make maps so people, who want to have fun and games, have a space where they can express their creativity and their own strategy. The rooms in ns2_turtle, are not designed with the visuals in mind, but on a certain experience. Cargo for example is how I imagine the best place for aliens to take down marines, it has a lots of high cover skulks can climb and run around, it is a wide space for lurks and fades, yet it has chokepoints on the ground level which force marines close together. Cargo is shaped like a U, connected in the middle which also allows aliens to flank the enemy where ever he comes from.
Each place in the map is designed after the experience the player will have there. I also love to play with strong contrasts, like small corridors which lead to big open spaces. The map in itself is an expression of aliens vs marines. Marines have their open spaces to get across the map and aliens have their cramped corridors. Alien areas have a lot of vertical walls which forces marines to take a long route around while aliens can shortcut through, Marine areas have long halls which favors turret placement even if they are not used much.
So when I design areas I think of the experience the player will have in them. I have a bigger picture of what the whole is, a ship in ns2_turtle, so I mold that experience with the idea of what that place could be in a ship, with a lot of liberties. It is not a ship I am trying to build but a map.
So every piece in the map sort of has a gameplay idea attached to it. The beams in quarters hinders alien movement, while the huge beams in hub are like an open vent which allows aliens to move across the space. The pipes in Engine give aliens a space, cover and movement in what is a big open area. In early game Marines have to go around bridge to get to the tp, while with jetpacks they can shortcut straight to the tp.
So the map is the expression of a gameplay experience. And with ns2_turtle, my first full scale map, I put every gameplay experience I could imagine. I have two more ideas for maps which will be more focused, but ns2_turtle is for me the ultimate NS2 playground. That is how I imagined it. And if a bare cube satisfies that gameplay experience in a particular place, then a cube it must be.
There is a place for example which is one of my favorites design-wise, and I think this will show you that bare cubes have their place. It is one of my favorites because it is such a simple place, yet serves as a transition between the 'intelligent' space of bridge, and the 'rough' space of cargo.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/cube1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/cube2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
A little edit on b3. The hub tp. Surely not the easiest hive to get, and it might be a good relocation spot, but will definitely spice up the game and call for its own strategies!
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-4.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Edit2: Ladders!
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
- Reworked lights on the whole map.
(tho far from perfect, needs still a lot more work, finetuning, color highlights etc. - depending if ppl like it so far, i will continue(which means it will maybe also go into b3)... or not.)
PS: RR is for the lulz
Anyway, keep up the good job, its great to see good community maps :)
It moves on nicely to Asraniel's and Paradoxum's points. First off, these last two screens of the 'neck' area don't really show places where skulks would find an advantage of hiding. Hub and Loading do have more areas fit for ambushing. But I see your points. As things move on, I do uplift the visuals and add more details. The layout and flow of this map was the first thing I really focused on. And for the previous versions, ceilings weren't really a priority as there was a lot of stuff to do beforehand.
Because of my work method, I don't really need to 'redo' the ceilings, it is more of an addition and when I feel it is the priority I will put more work into the ceilings. I have been experimenting with different screen recorders and wish to bring a few videos to show how I work, which I think would be a nice complementary to the existing videos. I haven't been very lucky yet, I recorded myself creating another ladder like the screen above but when I stopped the recording, I was out of memory for compression and the recording was lost... :( So if anyone has a tip for a good screen recorder (I have tried fraps but it doesn't record the screen, just one window from the editor, and camstudio which records well but with which I don't think I could do long videos due to memory... maybe editing the setting...)
little edit: I love the RR Koruyo! I knew the RR in turtle was lacking as it was just quick job to get something out there till I put some real time with it, but now... It is the most awesome RR of all!
I have decided to go for a limited color scheme, to get that NS2 feel. People are going to be happy, here is some work on ceilings and a limited color scheme:p I think I will apply the cargo color scheme to the whole map, as it is the one I like the most, it is a warm, brownish/orangish which I think also goes well with an earthy idea of turtles. I have tried a greenish color scheme but wasn't satisfied with its cold feel.
I have been working mostly around Loading recently and the area still has some work to do.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-6.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here is a little close-up of what you see in the back, for those that know the map. This leads to an extension of tech, there is a ladder going up which you can't see from this angle.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
/edit
This again needs some work, I just couldn't wait to show you guys the extention to tech, which features some nice space for a forward base, and a door into cargo similar to the situation in Loading, and a resource point.
Here is the view from Cargo.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And here is the shaft, topped with a resource point, which leads into Loading.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-9.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Just to clear things up as well, as people might of misunderstood me. I care a lot about visuals. I really want to make something that looks nice, but, it is not my priority. My priority is creating gameplay space, and from there I imagine the visuals. The gameplay space is the root, and then I try to make it look nice. I don't make the map from a visual approach, based on visual elements, and then imagine the space to hold it. I find this has greatly benefited me in developing this map as I have been able to edit a lot of stuff when the gameplay lacked. Now that the map has been extensively played, and gameplay features tweaked for epic games (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGTyWSY3i6c" target="_blank">See this nice game on NS2HD</a>), I am focusing on adding more detail, trims, pipes and whatnot.
As we say here, "elle déchire."
Thanks for the support guys (plural cuz i got some nice messages too)! I am glad people who have played it enjoy the unique gameplay it offers!
European gamers seduced! Now to seduce the American crowd with looks :p
I've had my first experiences of Turtle in the last few days playing in the ENSL gathers. It's a great map. I'm looking forward to playing on the newest versions. B2C1 I think is the version we are playing at the moment.
My mapping philosophy is kind of similar. I like to make spaces, without a pre-conceived idea of what they will look like. I just try and create shapes and flow around the map. Then the concept of the rooms fills out afterwards, until eventually I see just how I want it to look :)
Koruyo, if you are satisfied with a version and feel it is good to release on a wide scale, please post a link and I will update the duplex gaming page to make things easier for distribution.
I restate that if someone wants to edit the map for enjoyment purposes only, I will only be honored! And if it brings something to gameplay I will surely consider including my take on it for b3.
Speaking of which, do you wish to see the vent from loading to engine in B3? Since the door can't be locked anymore, does it bring much?
Please, don't think of focusing your artistic choices as a limitation, however. What is going on is simplifying, perfecting.
As for how to do it -- you've got an elevator shaft there. That should be dirty. Outside of it, what's going on? A hallway? A corridor? Might that be a bit cleaner? This is how I'd approach it. To get brutally specific with it, I'd say use 4-5 textures throughout the whole map. At first. Then get concerned with individual rooms, and give them a couple, 1-2 textures that are unique to them. That's how you could benchmark it. Simple is good.
That way, when people remember turtle, they will recall the layout, and a few walls and rooms and areas with a solid color to them. That's the identity you need to choose for the map.
Turtle was mostly an experiment for me, and trying loads of different things helped me understand what I like, which textures I like, what colors I like and all that good stuff. It is also a good thing to go a little crazy and try very different stuff, then you can see what you like and it also opens your mind about different possibilities.
It is a very difficult process to nail down something to its essence. At first I really wanted to experiment all kinds of stuff. And I was much more serious about gameplay. Now that the gameplay has been nailed to a nice sweet spot, I do want to take this to the next level and give players the same recognition with visuals.
I understand very well your points fmpone, but I didn't want to go in that direction yet. All in good time ;)
Thanks for taking the time to post that!
As for brown as a primary choice, true it is a common one. I could try to get green working but... but... wait a minute! This makes me think about a great error I have been doing and explains some issues I have been having with lighting! I've been working with the paint color wheel because I am more of a paper guy than computer artist!! But this is RGB!! LOL! Thanks fmpone!! you just gave me a serious epiphany! That's why when I tried to get a green color scheme things looked weird!
You're really progressing on the visuals, great to see that!
It would be awesome if you uploaded Koruyo's latest version to duplexgaming, since that's what is being played in the gathers at the moment.
Keep on rocking! Can't wait for b3.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-13.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b3-13.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also prefer the dark orange. However, as you simplify your lighting I think you'll start getting more deliberate with your texture choices here. I like that. There is still the chaos between clean textures/dirty textures, and I'd recommend picking one style for one area (in an area like this, grittier textures would seem to make sense to me), but I'm sure you'll consider it.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XgZvmNs8K4Q"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XgZvmNs8K4Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
EvilBob kindly allowed us access to it for a European scrim between Duplex and Archaea which you can find <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117645&hl=" target="_blank"><u><b>here.</b></u></a>
Thanks for this vid! It and the playtest was very informative. A lot of work to do that will be greatly influenced from these points! :p I think what we will see for final is keep Cargo as single alien spawn and have two marine spawns once backup area (including radiator and reactor view) has been pretty much redone to mimic the situation in Quarters.