ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Thanks for the kind words Evil Bob! And even more thanks for creating this extremely good map for us to play! I hope to see you in a gather soon again. It could be beneficial you to see how the map plays now that doors are not lockable anymore. Now that players have learned to abuse the open doors aliens get about 90% victory rate in the map because they can push on generator, hall and gate simultaneously and dance around in the corridors causing marines to run back and forth and still be unable to defend the rts.
This issue might get fixed by UWE changing the door behaviour, but who knows when that will happen. While waiting for that it could be beneficial to make the area around gate, hall and generator even simpler with less corridors for aliens to dance around.
I would love to see what you do you have waiting for us concerning the more balanced hive positions and better phase gate positions.
I am very much looking forward to the next version!
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
Thanks Zeikko! I have noticed that too, since doors can't be locked anymore their purpose of blocking aliens do not work anymore. This brings up issues where you pointed out but also in gate as aliens can also come from behind the rt from backup.
For this I have been thinking of simply removing the corridor between the powernode to generator and also access to hub from there. Would make a marine spawn more akin to NS1 maps, which I think could be a viable solution. It might make it harder for marines to move around their base but would avoid that issue once again...
I have always seen doors as the marine version of vents and apart from a few bugs they used to work well as so. I don't really know what their purpose will be from now on, if they can only be welded shut permanently which will basically constrain movement i don't know if marines are going to use that feature much.
It might have a use for marine bases, such as one of the exits is a door so marines could seal one entrance to their base to focus forces on the other, but such action would not be beneficiary to the team as it would give the aliens map control on the sealed side. I think UWE is thinking too much of the scene in aliens and wants to recreate that moment for the game, but it is like a last resort solution for blocked off marines, not something marines can use offensively.
and... for the next version, you might be surprised how I will accomplish this with such few differences :p basically I have been studying what makes a good hive and what doesn't and just tweaking these things so every hive becomes a good hive, even if I don't move them around. For example engine hive, if it was just a bit more hidden and not as easily accessed it would be a much more viable hive, and could be used by a confident team that wants to close off marines early. As for nice phase gate positions, i think all it really comes down to is a place with enough space and defendable.
I think as I work on the solutions I will send you some playtest versions to see if it works well and move on the next issue, till everything comes in place and them release b3. Maybe some versions where I limit certain passageways and see with you guys if you think a new passage is needed between those areas :D
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
I think one of the main reason aliens are winning so much on turtle right now is because of the bug where doors can't be locked anymore. I don't think you should do anything drastic about that just yet. :) I would suggest removing the door from gate to backup(to cut down on the numbers) and opening up a bit around the gate extractor point. It's very claustrophobic building gate extractor, you can't walk around it.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Its not a bug, I believe it is a design decision. Marines will only be able to weld them permanently in future builds.
So think about it now. Why would marines want to do that on turtle? They could weld the door that leads to hub. It would prevent aliens from coming that side but marines would rather it always be shut there. Having a commander lock doors each time can be ok, I don't think having marines get a welder and weld each time is ok. So that corridor is better off going with future state of the game.
Again why would marines weld the hall door shut only to lose access to one of their close RTs? Maybe if they are over-swarmed by aliens but in that case they are probably losing anyway, would that be a fun thing to do? "ok we are losing lets weld ourselves in"...
Same logic goes to all doors. Marines could weld the loading door only to lose one of their main advantages to attack that hive and basically give aliens a free hive spot.
I may have misunderstood doors for future builds, but that is what I understood from design log. Doors can't be used offensively anymore, only defensively.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1897222:date=Jan 25 2012, 09:00 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Jan 25 2012, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So think about it now. Why would marines want to do that on turtle? They could weld the door that leads to hub. It would prevent aliens from coming that side but marines would rather it always be shut there. Having a commander lock doors each time can be ok, I don't think having marines get a welder and weld each time is ok. So that corridor is better off going with future state of the game.
Again why would marines weld the hall door shut only to lose access to one of their close RTs? Maybe if they are over-swarmed by aliens but in that case they are probably losing anyway, would that be a fun thing to do? "ok we are losing lets weld ourselves in"...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have understood the doors in the same way by reading the changelogs and other dev comments. If they're really going to work this way they're not really going to do much good game design wise and can't be used in such a clever way you have used doors so far. Though i might be that the dev team will change their mind one or two times when they see how the doors work or don't work out.
As far as i can recall, doors are about to be weldable which locks them entirely, which at least for the door leading to Backup would be a nice addition cuz it would force Alien to take the more open approach from the gallery overlooking Backup. And the only 2 things able to break sealed doors are Infestation which de-welds it, and Onos which simply smash it open. And as long as Infestation de-welding would require a connected Cyst to be present for a decent amount of time it might work out fine.
Tho i think the door from Backup to Reactor View is pretty unnecessary as swalk mentioned. Its more of a distraction for Marines then anything else, especially with the Reactor View RT being powered by the Backup Powernode.
I however would like to emphasize Bridge somehow, as of your recent build its an almost dead part of the map, you only traverse it in the early game or when you either try to kill Generator as an Alien or try to get a PG up in Service which usually doesnt work out due to the close by RT and the infestation on it, as well as the pretty long way to get a shot onto the hive even with GLs.
I would really like to see something like a high risk - high yield Tech Point in e.g. Engine, with maybe a Double RT spot and a somewhat more safespot in Bridge. This would lead to some risky relocs to get the bonus of D-Res or some risky Hives just for the Sake of being greedy. You might get rid of Loading for that Sake as its like the ultimate Safe 2nd hive due to being so close to Cargo. And backup is sort of unused as well. Maybe even get a Tech node in Hub so you got 3 potential expansions for Aliens and some decent reloc positions for Marines. The overall Vent-connection is fine tho, Aliens almost everywhere got a escape route through a Vent.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I can't express how much I feel frustrated with constant change of NS2. Especially when turtle worked so well in 190 (?) with lockable doors. As an alien I have lost the best of matches to a better team of marines and I was grateful for those games. Something I haven't experienced elsewhere.
They were an essential part of the layout and a lot of things had their purpose and could exist because of these doors.
I feel now that I am trying to make a new map out of an old one, not that I'm making the map evolve... I have happily adapted to UWE's vision of NS2 with new powernodes and other things, but this change is just too much of a different game.
So at this very moment that I write this sentence a thought has come to me. It is time I truly give this map away for the benefit of all.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->And so I state that this map is released under creative commons.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Do what you want, explore new ideas. I will still work on my version but if people want to modify it in their own way please be my guest. If Fuild Core, you want to take hold of the alternate version and make yours and work it would be amazing.
The only wish I have is that this map doesn't become official or sold in any way. I want this map to become a tool for the community to explore ideas.
(except if UWE asks me to recreate an official version with the team based on new concept art to get that official NS2 signature style I would love that but in another lifetime maybe :p)
I don't have any feeling that I own this map more than anyone else. I created it to share a vision and do something I always wanted to do, create a map. The experience of creating this map is so much more to me than the appropriation of it under my name. I would feel honored if people could use it for something else. There is so much intelligence in this community that I feel limiting this project under my name only is a parasite of ego. Creativity must go beyond the selfish soul.
The most beautiful lessons in life I have had, came when money and appropriation was not involved. I am also a player of instruments, and even if I have been payed for performances, the ones I did that where free, I value so much more. We are in a time where elitists try to dominate the world through exclusivity, and they are killing the true nature of life, where everything is to be given and shared.
Beware of the people who claim they are the good guys, for they have a secret agenda of dominance. The "evil" ones, portrayed by the establishment are the ones who know only one master: God, with no intermediary. The establishment hates these free individuals. Enough preaching :p
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1897513:date=Jan 26 2012, 10:56 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Jan 26 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't express how much I feel frustrated with constant change of NS2. Especially when turtle worked so well in 190 (?) with lockable doors. As an alien I have lost the best of matches to a better team of marines and I was grateful for those games. Something I haven't experienced elsewhere.
They were an essential part of the layout and a lot of things had their purpose and could exist because of these doors.
I feel now that I am trying to make a new map out of an old one, not that I'm making the map evolve... I have happily adapted to UWE's vision of NS2 with new powernodes and other things, but this change is just too much of a different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please don't remove all the doors! I know the balance switched heavily against aliens, after the doors were bugged and not lockable anymore. But I think that it will change back as soon as the new doors arrive. UWE is currently reworking them, hopefully they will work in "gorilla". The different states of doors that I know is planned: Unlocked Doors(unattackable, opens for both teams) Locked Doors(can be opened by marines, attackable by aliens(have HP), can be opened by infestation(gorge cysts also, probably), or an onos) Welded Doors(can only by opened by onos) Marines will probably also be able to rebuild destroyed doors for a cost. And hopefully they will change it so all doors start out locked. That way you would not have to lock all the doors in the early game. But you would have to be on your toes to unlock doors that are under attack. This will make doors give the marines an advantage, they know something is coming through the door, because the commander tells them. All this will result in the doors being more fluid with the gameplay, and work alot better than now.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898111:date=Jan 30 2012, 01:18 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jan 30 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lockable doors are already in (use the console of the door), it will be locked for som secs, so you can securely welder it (comming soon) shut.
So the only thing missing for the "new" door system is the welder (and the destruction of the door).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think they should be able to be locked permanently like before(but be that way from gamestart), but all aliens should be able to damage the door, and gorge could open it with a cyst.
Also, wanted to congratulate you, evilbob, on the 300+ downloads, but it's already 340 :D
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
It makes me think. An even simpler solution for doors for UWE. Make then auto-open for marines only who get close to the door. Maybe a com option to turn off the auto-open. They would be easy to use and still have the same purpose. The lock mechanic pretty much achieves the same thing. Late game onos can break then to remove marine door advantage, seams like a very nice parallel with vents as late game marines have jet-packs. Welding the door seals it giving it more hp against infestation corrosion but marines can't pass it anymore.
@swalk thanks! I loved watching the gathers on NS2HD!
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
I do hope that you will continue to work on turtle once things on the gameplay side have settled down. I know it must be frustrating to adapt a map constantly to make it playable using new features, only for those features to change once you've put them in just as you like them.
Rest assured, there is a lot of that going on in the dev team as well, and its just as frustrating there, I'm willing to bet.
The first thing I would like to see on Turtle is a bigger readyroom. Its a bit to claustrophobic for my taste. I like the 2 levels, but just make it more roomy like in all the rgeat readyrooms of NS1.
OFFTOPIC: I would like to see ns_nancy's readyroom again (a cafetaria, seems like a perfect fit for NS2_docking)
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Also wanted to bring this to your attention, gorges cannot fit into most vents, if you evolve to gorge in your vents, you get stuck. A small height increase should do it :P
<!--quoteo(post=1897524:date=Jan 27 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Karko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karko @ Jan 27 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you Evilbob please make the area around Gate extractor a tiny bit larger so you cant get "stuck" on the corner behind the Gate's Extractor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also want to make sure this is not forgotten as it is important for defending and attacking Gate extractor. :/
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Don't worry this has been noted.
My current plan for b3, thanks to suggestions
<ul><li>Bigger service</li><li>Bigger tech</li><li>Remove backup and reactor view, move RT to a new space from the 'balcony' that looks into backup currently</li><li>Remove Loading, keeping the route between engine and tech where the RT will be moved</li><li>Move the gate RT a bit so it has more space</li><li>More space in the vents so you can evolve without getting stuck, but this might be a bug in the game as gorges can move in them if they don't evolve in it.</li></ul>
Maybe list <ul><li>Hide the techpoints in bridge and engine from view a bit so you can't see them from afar. Might not be necessary after removal of reactor view.</li></ul>
This will surely change the map quite a bit, giving less choices but focusing on what works. The map will be even smaller... The idea would be to create two equal hive spots in bridge or engine.
Though I'm not too fond of the idea, if people could confirm this would enhance gameplay, then I will go for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1898707:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:07 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Feb 2 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't worry this has been noted.
My current plan for b3, thanks to suggestions
<ul><li>Bigger service</li><li>Bigger tech</li><li>Remove backup and reactor view, move RT to a new space from the 'balcony' that looks into backup currently</li><li>Remove Loading, keeping the route between engine and tech where the RT will be moved</li><li>Move the gate RT a bit so it has more space</li><li>More space in the vents so you can evolve without getting stuck, but this might be a bug in the game as gorges can move in them if they don't evolve in it.</li></ul>
Maybe list <ul><li>Hide the techpoints in bridge and engine from view a bit so you can't see them from afar. Might not be necessary after removal of reactor view.</li></ul>
This will surely change the map quite a bit, giving less choices but focusing on what works. The map will be even smaller... The idea would be to create two equal hive spots in bridge or engine.
Though I'm not too fond of the idea, if people could confirm this would enhance gameplay, then I will go for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think both Bridge and Engine are too close to the marine base to be viable first expansion points, Bridge is pretty much the room outside of Quarters.
If you're thinking about changing the map so drastically already, maybe shifting the marine spawn over to where Backup is now (after changing the layout and size a little) would create better flow for the map without shrinking it. With this shift "Backup" should then power Gate, with Quarters maintaining the power for itself and Generator. Hub could then be changed into a tech point with it's own power node(Bilge?) and Hall's Res either moved to a more neutral position or removed entirely. There should be something which divides Engine and Reactor View in some way because the way it's laid out now makes it seem like they're the same room.
It would make both Bridge and Loading viable places for the alien team to expand, also bringing the marines slightly closer to Loading to make it easier to attack. While Loading would be slightly closer to the marines than Bridge, it's also much closer to Cargo for alien defence so that might create a meaningful decision.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898728:date=Feb 2 2012, 03:00 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Feb 2 2012, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think both Bridge and Engine are too close to the marine base to be viable first expansion points, Bridge is pretty much the room outside of MS.
If you're thinking about changing the map so drastically already, maybe shifting the marine spawn over to where Backup is now (after making the area a little more secure) would create better flow for the map without shrinking it. It would make both Bridge and Loading viable places for the alien team to expand, while also bringing the marines slightly closer to Loading to make it easier to attack.
My 2c.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also very interesting approach! Bridge vs Loading for 2nd/3rd hives, and marines in backup. In that case I would like to see the door from backup to gate be removed. Old marine start tech point removed, and same for Engine. And vents in backup removed. I like this approach even more, as you don't have to delete any of the unique places in the map.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I really like that idea, too, but Backup might require some tweaks: - currently I think Backup is a death-trap fortress for skulk/fade/onos, but very prone to gorge/lerk sniping from radiator, with small chances for the marines to keep them away, unless they grenadespam the balcony - maybe needs to be a bit bigger overall, because it feels a bit claustrophobic even without lots of buildings in it
<!--quoteo(post=1897513:date=Jan 26 2012, 10:56 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Jan 26 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->And so I state that this map is released under creative commons.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Do what you want, explore new ideas. I will still work on my version but if people want to modify it in their own way please be my guest. If Fuild Core, you want to take hold of the alternate version and make yours and work it would be amazing.
The only wish I have is that this map doesn't become official or sold in any way. I want this map to become a tool for the community to explore ideas.
(except if UWE asks me to recreate an official version with the team based on new concept art to get that official NS2 signature style I would love that but in another lifetime maybe :p)
I don't have any feeling that I own this map more than anyone else. I created it to share a vision and do something I always wanted to do, create a map. The experience of creating this map is so much more to me than the appropriation of it under my name. I would feel honored if people could use it for something else. There is so much intelligence in this community that I feel limiting this project under my name only is a parasite of ego. Creativity must go beyond the selfish soul.
The most beautiful lessons in life I have had, came when money and appropriation was not involved. I am also a player of instruments, and even if I have been payed for performances, the ones I did that where free, I value so much more. We are in a time where elitists try to dominate the world through exclusivity, and they are killing the true nature of life, where everything is to be given and shared.
Beware of the people who claim they are the good guys, for they have a secret agenda of dominance. The "evil" ones, portrayed by the establishment are the ones who know only one master: God, with no intermediary. The establishment hates these free individuals. Enough preaching :p
Blessings and good life to you all :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice speech! I will take a look in the spark editor and try to learn from your map. Always wanted to create some maps, but never quite got around to get started. Maybe tweaking your awsome map will be a good place to start.
I don't think you should make any drastic changes on turtle. With a few tweaks it will be playable for a long time. I would love to see you create an entirely new map however, with all you have learned from Turtle and all the feedback and more game experience you have now :)
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Well there is always the previous versions that can still be viable in their own way. So I'm not that scared about changing it drastically. When doors will be functional again I am sure b2 will regain its balance. Though I love the extra suggestions. That is what is good with putting things out there even if you don't believe in them that much (suggestions) because they can hint the idea and all you good people can turn that idea into something truly outstanding ;)
I have sort of started a new map already. It is in the thought process and I am doing some prototyping and style tests to develop it. But I am not in a hurry, I took a year of planning, prototyping, styletests before I really started to produce the turtle you know today and the creation of it took about a year also. Of course in am not a full time NS2 mapper so I do these things with patience. I know what I want to achieve and it will be quite the opposite of turtle. The other extreme of gameplay :p I am hoping I can document how I make it also so people can learn from my work process. It is going to be much simpler so hopefully It won't take as much time. I am planning much less spaces than in turtle with less connections, but spaces and flow of a very different nature. I know the name already: ns2_phoenix, more of a high speed, profiled ship.
And maybe from there I will then do a more conventional map for NS2, mixing the knowledge of these two extremes. I really love ns1 maps and I am so glad that loads of people are re-envisioning and re-creating them. Maybe take a take at a NS1 recreation. But all that is like in five or six lives, I have too many lives going on at the same time :p
I also have this very peculiar idea for a NS2 map that would be something, really, really different in gameplay based on a complex spawn system. I am thinking of calling it ns2_octopus, more of a static, broad orbital ship.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Actually I only think the doors gave the marines a minor advantage. What I think affects the win/loss balance the most, is the easy access to bile the powernode in marine start. I think it would be a great idea to make it at least a little bit harder to get bilebombs on it. Like move it inside MS, on the wall just left to the exit to Gate/Hallway to generator. That way the gorges can bile it from the hallway to gen, but not from gate. But aliens have to be a little more careful, cause else they will get backstabbed from generator.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Lately we've been seeing some drifter sniping tactics(early in hub), which denies aliens their 3rd natural harvester in tech(loading and bilge are harder to get). I think this could be solved if drifters could use the vent from cargo to tech. So leading the vent to the floor, and having a ramp at the top instead of jumping down in the vent(marine/gorge scenario), so the drifters can access, and you can get up there as a gorge. That would adress the easy denial.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1901201:date=Feb 9 2012, 11:38 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 9 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lately we've been seeing some drifter sniping tactics(early in hub), which denies aliens their 3rd natural harvester in tech(loading and bilge are harder to get). That would adress the easy denial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why would it need to be addressed? I think it's a great gameplay feature! Yesterday i was comming for the long time and the enemy did this to me and i was totally surprised and it ruined our early game. We got owned but I wouldn't want this tactic to be removed, it's one of those small things that add more to the gameplay. The alien comm needs to take care that he moves the drifter on a safe moment and marines have the option to try to deny it. It's awesome gameplay to me!
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Because it is simply too easy to do compared to the payoff. One of the natural expansions should not be vulnerable like that due to drifter pathing. I'm sure you will agree once you play a little more with or against this "tactic".
Comments
This issue might get fixed by UWE changing the door behaviour, but who knows when that will happen. While waiting for that it could be beneficial to make the area around gate, hall and generator even simpler with less corridors for aliens to dance around.
I would love to see what you do you have waiting for us concerning the more balanced hive positions and better phase gate positions.
I am very much looking forward to the next version!
For this I have been thinking of simply removing the corridor between the powernode to generator and also access to hub from there. Would make a marine spawn more akin to NS1 maps, which I think could be a viable solution. It might make it harder for marines to move around their base but would avoid that issue once again...
I have always seen doors as the marine version of vents and apart from a few bugs they used to work well as so. I don't really know what their purpose will be from now on, if they can only be welded shut permanently which will basically constrain movement i don't know if marines are going to use that feature much.
It might have a use for marine bases, such as one of the exits is a door so marines could seal one entrance to their base to focus forces on the other, but such action would not be beneficiary to the team as it would give the aliens map control on the sealed side. I think UWE is thinking too much of the scene in aliens and wants to recreate that moment for the game, but it is like a last resort solution for blocked off marines, not something marines can use offensively.
and... for the next version, you might be surprised how I will accomplish this with such few differences :p basically I have been studying what makes a good hive and what doesn't and just tweaking these things so every hive becomes a good hive, even if I don't move them around. For example engine hive, if it was just a bit more hidden and not as easily accessed it would be a much more viable hive, and could be used by a confident team that wants to close off marines early. As for nice phase gate positions, i think all it really comes down to is a place with enough space and defendable.
I think as I work on the solutions I will send you some playtest versions to see if it works well and move on the next issue, till everything comes in place and them release b3. Maybe some versions where I limit certain passageways and see with you guys if you think a new passage is needed between those areas :D
So much to do, so little time :p
I don't think you should do anything drastic about that just yet. :)
I would suggest removing the door from gate to backup(to cut down on the numbers) and opening up a bit around the gate extractor point.
It's very claustrophobic building gate extractor, you can't walk around it.
So think about it now. Why would marines want to do that on turtle? They could weld the door that leads to hub. It would prevent aliens from coming that side but marines would rather it always be shut there. Having a commander lock doors each time can be ok, I don't think having marines get a welder and weld each time is ok. So that corridor is better off going with future state of the game.
Again why would marines weld the hall door shut only to lose access to one of their close RTs? Maybe if they are over-swarmed by aliens but in that case they are probably losing anyway, would that be a fun thing to do? "ok we are losing lets weld ourselves in"...
Same logic goes to all doors. Marines could weld the loading door only to lose one of their main advantages to attack that hive and basically give aliens a free hive spot.
I may have misunderstood doors for future builds, but that is what I understood from design log. Doors can't be used offensively anymore, only defensively.
Again why would marines weld the hall door shut only to lose access to one of their close RTs? Maybe if they are over-swarmed by aliens but in that case they are probably losing anyway, would that be a fun thing to do? "ok we are losing lets weld ourselves in"...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have understood the doors in the same way by reading the changelogs and other dev comments. If they're really going to work this way they're not really going to do much good game design wise and can't be used in such a clever way you have used doors so far. Though i might be that the dev team will change their mind one or two times when they see how the doors work or don't work out.
Tho i think the door from Backup to Reactor View is pretty unnecessary as swalk mentioned. Its more of a distraction for Marines then anything else, especially with the Reactor View RT being powered by the Backup Powernode.
I however would like to emphasize Bridge somehow, as of your recent build its an almost dead part of the map, you only traverse it in the early game or when you either try to kill Generator as an Alien or try to get a PG up in Service which usually doesnt work out due to the close by RT and the infestation on it, as well as the pretty long way to get a shot onto the hive even with GLs.
I would really like to see something like a high risk - high yield Tech Point in e.g. Engine, with maybe a Double RT spot and a somewhat more safespot in Bridge. This would lead to some risky relocs to get the bonus of D-Res or some risky Hives just for the Sake of being greedy. You might get rid of Loading for that Sake as its like the ultimate Safe 2nd hive due to being so close to Cargo. And backup is sort of unused as well. Maybe even get a Tech node in Hub so you got 3 potential expansions for Aliens and some decent reloc positions for Marines. The overall Vent-connection is fine tho, Aliens almost everywhere got a escape route through a Vent.
They were an essential part of the layout and a lot of things had their purpose and could exist because of these doors.
I feel now that I am trying to make a new map out of an old one, not that I'm making the map evolve... I have happily adapted to UWE's vision of NS2 with new powernodes and other things, but this change is just too much of a different game.
So at this very moment that I write this sentence a thought has come to me. It is time I truly give this map away for the benefit of all.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->And so I state that this map is released under creative commons.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Do what you want, explore new ideas. I will still work on my version but if people want to modify it in their own way please be my guest. If Fuild Core, you want to take hold of the alternate version and make yours and work it would be amazing.
The only wish I have is that this map doesn't become official or sold in any way. I want this map to become a tool for the community to explore ideas.
(except if UWE asks me to recreate an official version with the team based on new concept art to get that official NS2 signature style I would love that but in another lifetime maybe :p)
I don't have any feeling that I own this map more than anyone else. I created it to share a vision and do something I always wanted to do, create a map. The experience of creating this map is so much more to me than the appropriation of it under my name. I would feel honored if people could use it for something else. There is so much intelligence in this community that I feel limiting this project under my name only is a parasite of ego. Creativity must go beyond the selfish soul.
The most beautiful lessons in life I have had, came when money and appropriation was not involved. I am also a player of instruments, and even if I have been payed for performances, the ones I did that where free, I value so much more. We are in a time where elitists try to dominate the world through exclusivity, and they are killing the true nature of life, where everything is to be given and shared.
Beware of the people who claim they are the good guys, for they have a secret agenda of dominance. The "evil" ones, portrayed by the establishment are the ones who know only one master: God, with no intermediary. The establishment hates these free individuals. Enough preaching :p
Blessings and good life to you all :D
They were an essential part of the layout and a lot of things had their purpose and could exist because of these doors.
I feel now that I am trying to make a new map out of an old one, not that I'm making the map evolve... I have happily adapted to UWE's vision of NS2 with new powernodes and other things, but this change is just too much of a different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't remove all the doors!
I know the balance switched heavily against aliens, after the doors were bugged and not lockable anymore.
But I think that it will change back as soon as the new doors arrive.
UWE is currently reworking them, hopefully they will work in "gorilla".
The different states of doors that I know is planned:
Unlocked Doors(unattackable, opens for both teams)
Locked Doors(can be opened by marines, attackable by aliens(have HP), can be opened by infestation(gorge cysts also, probably), or an onos)
Welded Doors(can only by opened by onos)
Marines will probably also be able to rebuild destroyed doors for a cost.
And hopefully they will change it so all doors start out locked.
That way you would not have to lock all the doors in the early game.
But you would have to be on your toes to unlock doors that are under attack.
This will make doors give the marines an advantage, they know something is coming through the door, because the commander tells them.
All this will result in the doors being more fluid with the gameplay, and work alot better than now.
So the only thing missing for the "new" door system is the welder (and the destruction of the door).
So the only thing missing for the "new" door system is the welder (and the destruction of the door).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they should be able to be locked permanently like before(but be that way from gamestart), but all aliens should be able to damage the door, and gorge could open it with a cyst.
Also, wanted to congratulate you, evilbob, on the 300+ downloads, but it's already 340 :D
@swalk thanks! I loved watching the gathers on NS2HD!
Rest assured, there is a lot of that going on in the dev team as well, and its just as frustrating there, I'm willing to bet.
I like the 2 levels, but just make it more roomy like in all the rgeat readyrooms of NS1.
OFFTOPIC: I would like to see ns_nancy's readyroom again (a cafetaria, seems like a perfect fit for NS2_docking)
A small height increase should do it :P
I also want to make sure this is not forgotten as it is important for defending and attacking Gate extractor. :/
My current plan for b3, thanks to suggestions
<ul><li>Bigger service</li><li>Bigger tech</li><li>Remove backup and reactor view, move RT to a new space from the 'balcony' that looks into backup currently</li><li>Remove Loading, keeping the route between engine and tech where the RT will be moved</li><li>Move the gate RT a bit so it has more space</li><li>More space in the vents so you can evolve without getting stuck, but this might be a bug in the game as gorges can move in them if they don't evolve in it.</li></ul>
Maybe list
<ul><li>Hide the techpoints in bridge and engine from view a bit so you can't see them from afar. Might not be necessary after removal of reactor view.</li></ul>
This will surely change the map quite a bit, giving less choices but focusing on what works. The map will be even smaller... The idea would be to create two equal hive spots in bridge or engine.
Though I'm not too fond of the idea, if people could confirm this would enhance gameplay, then I will go for it.
My current plan for b3, thanks to suggestions
<ul><li>Bigger service</li><li>Bigger tech</li><li>Remove backup and reactor view, move RT to a new space from the 'balcony' that looks into backup currently</li><li>Remove Loading, keeping the route between engine and tech where the RT will be moved</li><li>Move the gate RT a bit so it has more space</li><li>More space in the vents so you can evolve without getting stuck, but this might be a bug in the game as gorges can move in them if they don't evolve in it.</li></ul>
Maybe list
<ul><li>Hide the techpoints in bridge and engine from view a bit so you can't see them from afar. Might not be necessary after removal of reactor view.</li></ul>
This will surely change the map quite a bit, giving less choices but focusing on what works. The map will be even smaller... The idea would be to create two equal hive spots in bridge or engine.
Though I'm not too fond of the idea, if people could confirm this would enhance gameplay, then I will go for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think both Bridge and Engine are too close to the marine base to be viable first expansion points, Bridge is pretty much the room outside of Quarters.
If you're thinking about changing the map so drastically already, maybe shifting the marine spawn over to where Backup is now (after changing the layout and size a little) would create better flow for the map without shrinking it. With this shift "Backup" should then power Gate, with Quarters maintaining the power for itself and Generator. Hub could then be changed into a tech point with it's own power node(Bilge?) and Hall's Res either moved to a more neutral position or removed entirely. There should be something which divides Engine and Reactor View in some way because the way it's laid out now makes it seem like they're the same room.
It would make both Bridge and Loading viable places for the alien team to expand, also bringing the marines slightly closer to Loading to make it easier to attack. While Loading would be slightly closer to the marines than Bridge, it's also much closer to Cargo for alien defence so that might create a meaningful decision.
My 2c. Please don't shrink your awesome map :).
Edit: Plus what Swalk said.
If you're thinking about changing the map so drastically already, maybe shifting the marine spawn over to where Backup is now (after making the area a little more secure) would create better flow for the map without shrinking it. It would make both Bridge and Loading viable places for the alien team to expand, while also bringing the marines slightly closer to Loading to make it easier to attack.
My 2c.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also very interesting approach! Bridge vs Loading for 2nd/3rd hives, and marines in backup.
In that case I would like to see the door from backup to gate be removed.
Old marine start tech point removed, and same for Engine.
And vents in backup removed.
I like this approach even more, as you don't have to delete any of the unique places in the map.
- currently I think Backup is a death-trap fortress for skulk/fade/onos, but very prone to gorge/lerk sniping from radiator, with small chances for the marines to keep them away, unless they grenadespam the balcony
- maybe needs to be a bit bigger overall, because it feels a bit claustrophobic even without lots of buildings in it
The only wish I have is that this map doesn't become official or sold in any way. I want this map to become a tool for the community to explore ideas.
(except if UWE asks me to recreate an official version with the team based on new concept art to get that official NS2 signature style I would love that but in another lifetime maybe :p)
I don't have any feeling that I own this map more than anyone else. I created it to share a vision and do something I always wanted to do, create a map. The experience of creating this map is so much more to me than the appropriation of it under my name. I would feel honored if people could use it for something else. There is so much intelligence in this community that I feel limiting this project under my name only is a parasite of ego. Creativity must go beyond the selfish soul.
The most beautiful lessons in life I have had, came when money and appropriation was not involved. I am also a player of instruments, and even if I have been payed for performances, the ones I did that where free, I value so much more. We are in a time where elitists try to dominate the world through exclusivity, and they are killing the true nature of life, where everything is to be given and shared.
Beware of the people who claim they are the good guys, for they have a secret agenda of dominance. The "evil" ones, portrayed by the establishment are the ones who know only one master: God, with no intermediary. The establishment hates these free individuals. Enough preaching :p
Blessings and good life to you all :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice speech! I will take a look in the spark editor and try to learn from your map. Always wanted to create some maps, but never quite got around to get started. Maybe tweaking your awsome map will be a good place to start.
I don't think you should make any drastic changes on turtle. With a few tweaks it will be playable for a long time. I would love to see you create an entirely new map however, with all you have learned from Turtle and all the feedback and more game experience you have now :)
I have sort of started a new map already. It is in the thought process and I am doing some prototyping and style tests to develop it. But I am not in a hurry, I took a year of planning, prototyping, styletests before I really started to produce the turtle you know today and the creation of it took about a year also. Of course in am not a full time NS2 mapper so I do these things with patience. I know what I want to achieve and it will be quite the opposite of turtle. The other extreme of gameplay :p I am hoping I can document how I make it also so people can learn from my work process. It is going to be much simpler so hopefully It won't take as much time. I am planning much less spaces than in turtle with less connections, but spaces and flow of a very different nature. I know the name already: ns2_phoenix, more of a high speed, profiled ship.
And maybe from there I will then do a more conventional map for NS2, mixing the knowledge of these two extremes. I really love ns1 maps and I am so glad that loads of people are re-envisioning and re-creating them. Maybe take a take at a NS1 recreation. But all that is like in five or six lives, I have too many lives going on at the same time :p
I also have this very peculiar idea for a NS2 map that would be something, really, really different in gameplay based on a complex spawn system. I am thinking of calling it ns2_octopus, more of a static, broad orbital ship.
What I think affects the win/loss balance the most, is the easy access to bile the powernode in marine start.
I think it would be a great idea to make it at least a little bit harder to get bilebombs on it.
Like move it inside MS, on the wall just left to the exit to Gate/Hallway to generator.
That way the gorges can bile it from the hallway to gen, but not from gate.
But aliens have to be a little more careful, cause else they will get backstabbed from generator.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116208" target="_blank">Door gameplay thread</a> :P
But as has been mentioned by others, some places feel a bit cramped.
Also I wanted to report, that the marine base RT node is floating off the ground a bit and you can shoot from under it.
I think this could be solved if drifters could use the vent from cargo to tech.
So leading the vent to the floor, and having a ramp at the top instead of jumping down in the vent(marine/gorge scenario), so the drifters can access, and you can get up there as a gorge.
That would adress the easy denial.
That would adress the easy denial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would it need to be addressed?
I think it's a great gameplay feature!
Yesterday i was comming for the long time and the enemy did this to me and i was totally surprised and it ruined our early game.
We got owned but I wouldn't want this tactic to be removed, it's one of those small things that add more to the gameplay. The alien comm needs to take care that he moves the drifter on a safe moment and marines have the option to try to deny it.
It's awesome gameplay to me!
One of the natural expansions should not be vulnerable like that due to drifter pathing.
I'm sure you will agree once you play a little more with or against this "tactic".