ns2_turtle - V1.0 Released

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  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    From posts on the forum, to watching those vids, and just thinking:

    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->What If I removed loading and backup TP, making it a 4TP map?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    It would create much less diversity in the gameplay. Make the game much more difficult for aliens. But it seams as though the 'flow' would be more centered.
    The layout was designed like so because of the previous necessities for marines to hold TPs for tech. I had left it thinking marines could set up a 'backup' base.

    So what do you think? Go for it? Or keep the 6 tps even if they won't be used in most games?

    ---
    -I agree with the names, I'll try and find something instead of leaving things blank.
    -And a door near marine spawn is a nice idea.
    -Friday night cranking! lol get myself some goodie goodie and I'll get you a nice version for your scrim :D
  • LORFCASTERLORFCASTER Join Date: 2010-06-13 Member: 72049Members
    I would vote to keep the techpoints, atleast for now until the game has grown some more. Things like Jetpacks, a smoother commander interface, alien upgrades and larger server sizes will all change game play and player dispersions.

    Keep in mind...Barely been able to test the map on Build<b>187</b>
  • BJHBnade_spammerBJHBnade_spammer Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42431Members
    cool cant wait to play the updated one have you looked at your map with atmospheric lighting on yet? the updated one?
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    I have some nice ideas for atmospheric lighting but I think I will wait for 188 before implementing them. I guess I'm going to release a b1.5 for the skrim. I wanted to wait for 188 for b2, taking into account the updates on the engine.

    I planned out what I wanted to do before Sunday for 1.5. You can already notice some of the changes.
    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/plan.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • BJHBnade_spammerBJHBnade_spammer Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42431Members
    are the yellow and red lines supposed to be some sortive symmetry thing?
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    They are 'construction lines' I use to check proportion and symmetry. I didn't want the map to be symmetrical but that TPs and RT sort of fall on a grid. It is mostly to check the TP and RT placements.
  • BJHBnade_spammerBJHBnade_spammer Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42431Members
    edited November 2011
    as long as the time it takes to go between them is average it should not matter too much.

    speaking of witch the distance between tech points looking at that is either too long or too short. you need to move the middle left one closer to the middle. and add a resource tower next to it while trying to move the other rts equally around the map. i dont know if there too many rts or what but it just looks like something is off with them.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    I made a suggestion to the changes:
    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/oF4SU.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    Moving the door in marine start, because that way is so easy for aliens to attack from, they should go around the sides in the early game imo. It would also make it a bit more dramatic when the door gets smashed down and the onos and other aliens swarm directly into marine start.
    Also the crossed over tech points as you suggested, I would like to see how that would play out. Make it a 4 TP map.
    Engine would be a hard to hold for aliens with the current patch, as they can't get passed locked doors. They would have to go through Hub to even get there. Maybe a very long vent from alien start could lead there, so that vent would only be used for the purpose of getting to engine, and if you are further into the map you would have to decide to either go back to AS to find the vent or go through Hub.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    @BJHBnade_spammer

    There is a weighted balance that is not equidistant. Dynamics and internal forces that are expressed in the construction, but cannot be measured.

    @Swalk

    As much as I like the idea of going to 4tps, it does goes against a lot of the balance choices I've made mentioned above. I think I'll keep the 6tps and make a proper 4tp map after.

    For the door, I think I will keep the position I suggested, and include your suggestion by adding another door on the other end of that corridor, which would effectively force aliens to go around, and keep the power point protected as is. It makes 5 doors across the map, it would be nice if you could check an option and they start locked, its kind of stupid that first thing to do as com is lock those doors. Instead of choosing when to lock them he would choose where to open them.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    I totally forgot about the powerpoint in marine start, good point!
    I also feel that it's a bit silly to lock all doors at the beginning of the game, they should start out locked in my opinion.
    Soon they will be destroyable by regular damage in the locked mode. That way, like you say, choosing which doors to unlock, so they open for aliens, and are available for marine welding later on(they won't get destroyed), would be the way to go.
    About the tech points though, I feel that the one just west of marine start is quite redundant for both teams, 5 tech points? :P
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    I agree on the fact that it is redundant and doesn't seem to have much use. Nevertheless, I'll leave it for composition :p If it's there, and a situation calls for it then it will find its use, hence the name backup :p
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    THEY ALMOST GOT THE CC! RELOC TO BACKUP!
    :D
  • BJHBnade_spammerBJHBnade_spammer Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42431Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1885398:date=Nov 17 2011, 04:56 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Nov 17 2011, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@BJHBnade_spammer

    There is a weighted balance that is not equidistant. Dynamics and internal forces that are expressed in the construction, but cannot be measured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    what? are you talking about your architecture?

    i was just saying that the techpoints on that side of the map are too close to each other. i understant you wan them somewhat symetrical and not at the same time but the way it looks like its not one of the starting techpoints. maby then the top and bottom techpoints should be moved closer to the middle and that middle left one be moved left more closer to the edge. im just trying to look at this from a gameplay point of view.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    Lol no, nothing to do architecture this time, its more like the physics of balance with a bit of spirituality, talking about TP and RT placement :p

    I don't really understand what you are saying about starting techpoints. MS/AS are respectfully bottom/top on the right, they are not on that series on the left.

    I just did some ingame testing and all TPs are about the same traveling distance from one another, with a sec or two more on the alien side (for a marine). Because of the layout it's even about the same time to get to engine TP or backup TP from MS (just a bit longer than going from engine TP to backup TP).
    <!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->
    So they look close to each other but in walking distant they are at about the same<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. I had forgot but it was established in the greybox version some while ago now. You make me doubt my process BJHBnade_spammer :p

    You just think the TPs should be on a circle equidistant to each other visually on the plan?

    Anyway I can assure you timings and distances where checked in very early versions. They aren't perfect, I would say it is about 10s +/-2s from TP to TP. Completing the circle should take about a minute. I know this is about 2/3 of timings suggested by UWE in their mapping guildlines but that was a choice on my part.

    The scattering of TPs and RTs arn't equidistant, but as they are symmetrical and equivalent for both team it should be good.

    This map was really designed as a whole terrain, not in a linear room-corridor-room fashion. If you try to analyze it as so sure it won't make sens.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    :)

    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/as2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • ale'ale' Join Date: 2011-08-06 Member: 114689Members
    Are we getting the new version tonight? The scrim will be in a few hours.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    I'm good on props, geometry, and com alpha. I haven't checked pathing but it should be good. There's a minor problem on minimap. I've just installed and playing with radiance for the final touch and I must say after a quick pass on the readyroom, wow!

    I'm going to play a bit with radiance, when do you want to map?

    Radiance RR with minimap.
    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/radiance.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    I sent swalk a link.

    ---

    That was an impressive game! thx HBZ and duplex!
  • ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
    Thanks for pointing me to the right thread bOb!

    I just wanted to add a few things after the game we played today vs pub.eu (although there was so many mercs, it was more a general NS2 deathmatch!).

    Don't worry about balance too much at the moment, the game is stacked towards aliens, so they will usually always win. We had this discussion while playing, its the game not the map. Once the game evens out, it will be worth looking more critically at the map. For now it felt good to me!

    The containers at alien start (and the ability for marines to enter AS on top of one) is a genius peice of map making. Giving the marines a sorely needed advantage in hostility (and perhaps making up for that easy second hive spot). With me on the first container, one on the ground and another on the container infront of me, we were very difficult to kill. Which ever marine you went after, had two marines covering them with clear lines of sight. We must have killed 15+ skulks, but ran out of ammo before the aliens ran out of skulks! I really did enjoy that push vs HBZ and it was the first time I felt I held an advantage as a marine!

    In general I love the layout/feel of the map, sometimes it clearly favours aliens (there are some really small corridors) and sometimes marines (huge open spaces like hub). I love the hallways from generator to hub, with the really dark area then the tiny corridor its a scary place for a marine, then it opens up to hub and I stop feeling so paranoid!

    Bridge feels great too (and not just the amazing view of the skybox). Once you are inside it feels very safe for marines, with open spaces. However, attempting to assault Bridge when it is taken with aliens there is incredibly difficult, with so many spots aliens can drop down onto you.

    Keep up the great work, I really do love the map!

    I also have some more specific feedback after Alien Commanding 4 games now:

    1) Cysts towards Loading, the doorway has some sort of cyst placement issues, but it is not regular. 3 times I have been fine, once I simply could not get a cyst into Loading.

    2) Placing a Whip today, against the wall (south of the hive), the Whip constantly took damage, despite being on infestation, yet was luckily healed by the Hive so survived.

    3) Although this can be solved as you learn the map, it can be quite difficult working out how to get to some of the Resource Nodes (as in which level they are on and how to get there). Especially the one directly south of Alien Start. Perhaps the flooring could just adjusted a bit, to make it more obvious? If not, its not the end of the world and people will learn.

    4) With 2 Resource Nodes in Loading and 1 just to the east of AS, it is very easy for Aliens to get 4 RTs very quickly. With aliens being so good with limited resources, this felt too many to me. However, as discussed the game balance is broken and next patch hive cost will double, so it is not worth changing yet.

    All in all, you have done a great job and I look forward to many more clan matches on ns2_turtle!
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    Me and Ale did a <a href="http://youtu.be/Imk_PLMlyMg" target="_blank">short introductory video</a> to the map before the match between HBZ and Duplex. It is made of the first public build of the map and Evil_B0b1 has already fixed most of the stuff we criticise <a href="http://youtu.be/Imk_PLMlyMg" target="_blank">in the video</a>. Thanks a lot for the map Evil_B0b1. Keep up the good work! The actual match casts are coming soon.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Nice introduction, we should have watched it before our scrim ;)
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    Thx Argator, Zeikko, Yuuki, and Grizzy! and thanks again to everyone you got involved in the process of this map, you all are starting to be more than I can cite! :p

    When I say balance changes, at this point it is not big changes to do but there were a few things I noticed that went against the experience.

    Here's some quick screens of changes from feedback from the matches and Radiance on lighting. The changes from b2pt will be apparent to those who have played b2pt but still might be of interest for everyone who can get an idea of what b2 will be like, until at least the videos from the match ;p

    Marine spawn with more usable space, made the niche and lower platform easy to use, removed the vent and made the corridor more usable.
    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b21.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Here is a quick screen of the lighting rework in Alien Spawn. You can see what a difference it makes when being able to fix up the lighting ingame with Radiance! Also showing the WIP minimap because I want to change some of the names.
    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b22.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    The corridors marked by a green star I think should have names. I want to change the name of port and starboard hub to something unique (as in not referring to hub). I am thinking of something like 'alley' or 'circulation' for starboard. I think the corridor between port hub/ loading and Alien spawn (left green star) should be the same place as the current porthub area, I am planning a little rework of that area to give it more character in the spirit of that corridor so they belong together. It is important to distinguish this area from the two RTs also in the area, they will have a unique name too, thinking of "pressure" for the hub alien RT.

    And Lastly here is the second RT in port hub area, that replaces one of the RTs in loading, that gives a new, very nice addition/purpose to this room, and that needs a name.
    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b23.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    So if you have any suggestions bring it on!
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    Good work on the marine start and moving the loading rt. Those changes were absolutely needed. The lighting looks good too! I'm looking forward to see more colors and cool contrasts now that you have the great Radiance.

    The loading RT seems to be quite far away from the starting hive now. Have you counted how many cysts are needed to place rt on loading and service? This is not necessarily a bad thing at all. The long distance could balance the game a lot atleast how it is now, but wehn hive cost is changed to 100 long distances to alien expansion rts will be devastating for the balance.

    I find that the areas next to marine start are pretty complex and have too many corridors going everywhere. Atleast i find it quite confusing and taking away from the gameplay. The corridors are often empty and enable aliens to sneak to the marine base past the marines forcing marines to come back to the base all the time. I'm not sure how bad is it and how it could be fixed. I can't think of so many ways to change the corridor little bit but I will think about it. More testing is needed for me to be fully convinced that this is really an issue.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    Yeah I noticed that too, but I think it is part of the challenges of playing this map. One thing I really liked was observing how Marine start buildings were placed as the games went and they ended up being tucked around the two supports between MS and the corridor to Generator. I had never thought of that and I found it very clever as the marine buildings were tucked away leaving the big space clear for taking down skulks and other lifeforms and movement was not hindered. When the marine team went off to take down main hive, which they achieved to kill, aliens had the time to clean up marine base with a single gorge with bilebomb. The advantage of aliens is often they will have multiple bases so when the marines clean one there are others, but this strategy is not used by the marines. I think the real solution to that is marines should take the time to establish other bases so they have the same security when aliens attack them. MS is essential to hold for marines as it powers the 4 RTs around MS, but a second base, most obvious in backup but strategically viable anywhere else (holding bridge or loading would provide a great advantage against the aliens) is something I think teams are going to have to consider ;p

    --

    Concerning cysts and new RT, the trunk of the vent system from AS to Hub should be visible to commander, with that it is much easier to get cyst there. The new rt currently needs a gorge to bring down cysts but I have an idea to make it possible for com to be able to do it. I think it was a good balance choice. Aliens RTs can be pretty safe on this map, while Marine RTs, even if close to MS can be hard to defend, so having this one being a bit out of their reach, while still on alien turf, seems like a perfect solution.

    I have had a lot of time to test the map myself and cyst placement can be tricky, but when you know some good spots you can be very effective. For example I can get service RT in 4 pustules, Loading in 6, and new RT in 7 sharing one pustule with loading which I think is good. The new RT needs a little trick to get cysts down (its not difficult but you have to figure it out :p) or the help from a gorge so there might even be ways to need less cysts.

    It is intentionally a challenging map, where the first game you play could be catastrophic but hopefully without frustration, as you can develop your own sens of the map and you develop ideas of things you can do to win. Honestly I don't have the solution to the perfect strategy for this map, and I think the map is very open for each to develop his own strategy. You have to experience it and learn, and I think those who do will be greatly rewarded. It has not yet been seen, but a Marine victory on this map with two even teams will surely be the fruit of many battles and a very rewarding experience.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1886206:date=Nov 22 2011, 04:28 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Nov 22 2011, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/b22.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I like the new warm light in alien start.

    Your map certainly has interesting dynamics. It's a compact map. Most of the tech points (except alien start) are quite open, and more difficult to defend than Summit. I imagine the pace of the game will be lightning fast. I just hope that the new alien (hive) nerf in build 188 won't make Turtle too marine favored.

    The complex lighting in some of the rooms (eg Engine) can be visually overwhelming. I suggest simplifying the colors and keep the colors in each room more uniform.

    Keep up the good work!
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    <a href="http://youtu.be/sIkdRV7Xu5Y" target="_blank">Here's the first round of the game between Duplex and HBZ</a> played in the playtest version of b2. It shows clearly how difficult it is to play and cast a map you have never played. :D Especially the ending makes me hide in shame. Actually.. don't even watch it! :D
  • ale'ale' Join Date: 2011-08-06 Member: 114689Members
    Yes, the ending is kind of embarrassing. :D
  • ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
    Epic ending to that cast! Don't worry though, it ended just as abruptly for me as alien comm, concentrating on getting cysts to hub!
  • ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1886215:date=Nov 23 2011, 01:10 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Nov 23 2011, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When the marine team went off to take down main hive, which they achieved to kill, aliens had the time to clean up marine base with a single gorge with bilebomb. The advantage of aliens is often they will have multiple bases so when the marines clean one there are others, but this strategy is not used by the marines. I think the real solution to that is marines should take the time to establish other bases so they have the same security when aliens attack them. MS is essential to hold for marines as it powers the 4 RTs around MS, but a second base, most obvious in backup but strategically viable anywhere else (holding bridge or loading would provide a great advantage against the aliens) is something I think teams are going to have to consider ;p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think game balance essentially prevents this now. Marines are under a huge amount of pressure to keep enough RTs up to get a PG and GLs to stop the aliens first hive expansion. As essentially it is a losing game from that point onwards. At this point, even with PGs, once aliens have fades and skulk leap they can attack very fast. It is difficult holding a single base at that point, two would be impossible.

    Another problem would be where to setup base, holding Bridge still leaves the Hub -> Generator access to MS and Bridge (a significant weak point for marines), so has no huge strategical advantage. Loading would be great, but it is incredibly unlikely you would be able to take and hold something right next to Alien Start (and if you could, you would probably be playing a terrible team and win the game anyway).

    The game will likely change a lot balance wise next patch, so we will have to see how things turn out then. Either way none of this is a reflection on your map, just the game in general.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    La première est toujours ratée. Mais alors la deuxième m'en diras tu! :D

    ---
    There was an optimization to do in MS, I saw it thanks to Zeikko, a little bit to cut off :p
    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/gate.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
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