<!--quoteo(post=1923003:date=Apr 8 2012, 02:25 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 8 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1923003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->watched the video, I really like the bridge area, it reminds me of an area from an NS1 map but I have no idea what map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nancy? :-)
Today I've watched an NS2HD playtest on this map and did a thorough run throught it and must say: Hell of a crazy layout you've got there, I like it! :-) Also I've noticed some clever and interesting props use. I think, with some support from devs (custom props and such), this map should go official.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Hahaha! I remember one of the first tests we had on the map and the com did the same thing on the other side of quarters. I was amazed as I had never though of such a strategy :p
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Doubt it would be too effective in-game, but it is great as the marines can walk from the top of the container at the top wall, onto the props on the other side of the entrance, which are usually inaccessible.
Marines blocking Onos with buildings seems to happen more often on Turtle than it does on most other maps I play though, wonder why that is...
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Because a lot of passage ways are designed as a tight fit around the Onos. So just one thing in those passages blocks him. On other maps you don't find that situation as often.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Latest version is b2c1 which you can download in my sig. Beta 3 version which I am working on won't be out for quite some time is a complete upgrade. But b2c1 is completely playable and very fun map. We have had many games on it through the gathers and I've heard from some competitive players say that this is the most balanced and best performing map (of course this is due to simple geometry and minimal usage of props) for NS2 which is why you often see pcw on it.
It is out already but is usually not on the normal map rotation, your best chance of getting a game on it is through the <a href="http://www.ensl.org" target="_blank">ensl gathers (www.ensl.org).</a>
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
After playing the map for a bit, and I have to say there are some issues with the latest version of the map (b3)
<ul><li>Ladders at cargo need a redesign now that aliens can't use them any more and the amount of cysts you need to get to the from resnode to resnode is too high to get to using the starting res. Not so much an issue later on in the game but this leads me to the second issue... </li><li>There are way too many resnodes and techpoints on the map. Both teams are simply overflowing with resources, even when focusing on taking down resnodes. Which completely bypasses the part where you can actually influence the enemy's economy. The surplus of techpoints also make it quite favourable for aliens, since marines have to lock down too many. It somehow looks like the techpoints and resnodes were simply thrown in at random, without keeping an eye on walking distance or number of cysts needed... </li><li>ARCs can shoot at techpoints from areas that are very easy to defend or simply too far away from the techpoint that is under attack (both middle techpoints for example). </li><li>Level over level areas are weird to deal with as commander (kinda against the rules as well :) ), but acceptable to some extent... </li><li>And most Hive areas are snipe-able from long range</li></ul>
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I'm just going to say that "latest version of the map (b3)" is not b3 you played. You played a prototype version to test certain things that I wanted to know in the construction of b3. And therefore I didn't give it a number of its own and is not really a version.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I didn't expect it to be passed down nor distributed to other people than those involved. Oh well...
Here is a little lesson in balance for you kouji. As much as the game is geared towards a certain tempo, that tempo can be scaled either in abundance or scarcity. By adding or removing things from the planned tempo. The map is balanced on itself, not on a series of rules. Not because it doesn't follow these rules does it mean things are going wrong.
If both teams have access to an equivalent number of rts, the map is balanced on that. You can still hurt the other team's economy in reference to what your team is doing. If your team holds all the rts offered to you, yet you deny the rts offered to the other team, on the reference of the map's balance, you are hurting the other team's economy because you are getting tech quicker then them on the map's tempo.
The game has a balance and a map has a balance. The map scales the game's balance. If I break one of the game's rules, I have to find something to balance it. For example if I give a distance where marines can snipe a hive, I have to give aliens the possibility of getting to that snipe range for example.
I don't know if you've watched the match archaea vs exetus <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/314760533" target="_blank">ns2 live stream, turtle on 56mins</a>. Archaea know the map very well and you need to have played many games on this map before you understand it. But you can see how a good team that knows the map can dominate the other and hurt the other's economy. In that vid I hear Hugh saying that Charlie is wondering how to balance. This is exactly what this map is about and is why it is preferred for competitive games because it favors teams skill and strategy.
I have a deep understanding of order and balance, nothing is random in this map. You cannot understand this map by comparing it to a series of rules one has to follow. Nor can you understand it comparing it to other maps.
As much as things will seem weird to you and unconventional (7tps, loads of rts), I can make it work. I am a man of the forests and mountains. I know the order of nature and reality taught to me by many wise men. I do not need a path to know where I am going. :p
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1924709:date=Apr 12 2012, 09:16 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 12 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After playing the map for a bit, and I have to say there are some issues with the latest version of the map (b3)
<ul><li>Ladders at cargo need a redesign now that aliens can't use them any more and the amount of cysts you need to get to the from resnode to resnode is too high to get to using the starting res. Not so much an issue later on in the game but this leads me to the second issue... </li><li>There are way too many resnodes and techpoints on the map. Both teams are simply overflowing with resources, even when focusing on taking down resnodes. Which completely bypasses the part where you can actually influence the enemy's economy. The surplus of techpoints also make it quite favourable for aliens, since marines have to lock down too many. It somehow looks like the techpoints and resnodes were simply thrown in at random, without keeping an eye on walking distance or number of cysts needed... </li><li>ARCs can shoot at techpoints from areas that are very easy to defend or simply too far away from the techpoint that is under attack (both middle techpoints for example). </li><li>Level over level areas are weird to deal with as commander (kinda against the rules as well :) ), but acceptable to some extent... </li><li>And most Hive areas are snipe-able from long range</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ladders were added for this version and didn't even exist before. Aliens are fine without the ladders. It restricts Gorge's movement little bit but i think it's all intended and working fine.
There are plenty of resnodes so it plays little bit differently than other maps but it feels much more balanced with the current gameplay mechanics than any other map. This might change in the future but I am sure Evil Bob will act accordingly. The amount of tech points doesnt really hurt anybody, some of them might prove to be useless though. It remains to be seen after more playtesting.
You can attack the sieging ARCs pretty fast trough vents in the middle TPs.
Level over lever areas are the best thing in this map. I think they should be encouraged more by the community and the mapping guidelines should take a deeper analysis than saying "no no". Level over level geometry gives a lot to the gameplay because it makes movement and positioning skills so much more important. The level over level positions are small and carefully thought. There are always places to build phase gates, armories etc without multiple levels messing commanders view too much. Players also have to live with the fact that they can't get medpacks under catwalks and into vents, but that just gives more importance to the positioning.
Snipable hives are fine as long as aliens have multiple ways to get out of the hive room and surprise the snipers from behind. To be honest i'm quite sick of having tight close combat on the hives. Lerk - skulk - combo just decimates the marines over and over. It's fun to see marines shootign hive from far away and aliens having to defend it agressively instead of just gassing and healing blindly around the hive.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I sincerely hope you guys do realise that a game as complex as NS2, rules are there to define balancing and map design. If you break most rules in the book. Like the res flow for instance, which is the biggest offender right now. You're left with a shell of a game, meaning the map makes expanding <b>a lot less</b> risky, due to the surplus of res and possible expansion tech points.
Hmm, I didn't expect this condescending tone, I find it quite amusing actually. It's not like I actually called you out on anything. I'm just stating simple rules and facts that define the very essence and core of NS2 gameplay. You do realise that in my years of balancing and mapping experience, I always try to help out when I see things that could indeed be classified as highly questionable decisions.
The "A team that knows the map can outplay a team that is still figuring it out" and concluding from that, the map is balanced. I'd say that is not a very valid point.
But fair enough, I've said my peace and if you guys are simply brushing the points made off as "oh you don't know what you're talking about", I'm done. It seems you guys are just a tad bit too hostile when pointing out quite obvious issues... Oh well, can't say I didn't try :)
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Atleast I didn't mean to be hostile at all. I just wanted to tell that in my opinion the points you highlighted as flaws are nonexistant or even great features instead of flaws.
I think i realize the purpose of the mapping guidelines but at least the ones I read last time were very outdated. I just want to say that the lever over level works very good and the number of res nodes and their positioning makes the b2 version very balanced. With the current gameplay i find turtle the most balanced map. I haven't played the b3 enough to tell anything about the rt positioning in it.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
The mapping guide is there for a reason... obviously nobody is putting a gun to your head. But if I know anything about these playtesters who are vocal in their opinions, its that its very much worth considering and implementing their suggestions 90% of the time. The reason is, that's about the percentage of the time I find them to be correct.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1925028:date=Apr 13 2012, 02:34 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Apr 13 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Atleast I didn't mean to be hostile at all. I just wanted to tell that in my opinion the points you highlighted as flaws are nonexistant or even great features instead of flaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That hostility remark was addressed at you Zeikko ;)
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1925043:date=Apr 13 2012, 05:48 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 13 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That hostility remark was addressed at you Zeikko ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As said. I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to be hostile. We're all just trying to help Evil Bob make a good map here. No reason to be hostile over a game.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1925052:date=Apr 13 2012, 04:35 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Apr 13 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As said. I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to be hostile. We're all just trying to help Evil Bob make a good map here. No reason to be hostile over a game.
Peace, love and good games!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hot damn, no I dea what happened there! What I meant to type was:
"That hostility remark <b>wasn't</b> addressed at you Zeikko"
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1925054:date=Apr 13 2012, 06:37 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 13 2012, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hot damn, no I dea what happened there! What I meant to type was:
"That hostility remark <b>wasn't</b> addressed at you Zeikko"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I was thinking if it was possible for you to get offended from my statements. I'm glad that I was wrong. Now let's get back to the topic.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I'm sorry as well, there wasn't any hostility in my remark not condescending tone. I'm just trying to share my understandings for positivity and growth of NS2 community. When I say I mean to give you a lesson it is not to put you off, on the contrary. <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->A lesson is a teaching of knowledge<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. I see where you might of misunderstood that sentence as it is true it is often used in a different manner :p
Anyway. I know NS2 is a complex game, and ns2_turtle is a complex map based on the complex game. It is funny you mention level over level because this map is in a sense a level of balance over the level of balance in NS2. <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--> I do not try the balance the game with the map. I start with the premise that the game is balanced in itself. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> From there I can create a new order of things based on the orders of NS2. Please read my post again with a calm mind and try to understand what I'm saying.
Again I state that if you are trying to understand this map with conventional NS2 map design it won't make sense to you. Because it is based on a completely different frame of mind and consciousness. I have said it already but say it again, I am going to do a video about how the layout is designed for ns2_turtle and the philosophical ideas behind it.
To give you a head start, traditional ns2_maps are "closed spaced," this is an architectural concept which stems from the idea that we build rooms. Since the end of the 19th century a different philosophical idea has come about, what we call "modern space," anti-space" or "free-flowing space" which comes in parallel to cubists ideal of space, the bauhaus school of though or architects like LeCorbusier, Frank Lloyd Wright and many more.
/
Concerning what I say when a good team can dominate the other. This does show balance because if teams are equal then there is no domination and the stalemate arises. This sentence was put out on a different idea though about the map which rewards strategy. The balancing of the map is something completely different.
/
The guidelines were designed by Charlie who is a programmer/game-designer. He is not educated in notions of space and artistic ideas about figure/ground nor architectural ideas about space and anit-space. If ns2 maps were to be compared to conceptual ideas of space, we are in pre 20th century ideas. Ns2_turtle is based on contemporary ideas of space. Playtesters are also not educated in such notions.
Before you make a judgment about the balancing of turtle, I suggest you play several games on the b2c1 version. I think all playtesters should play this map, it will give you a completely different insight on NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1925118:date=Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guidelines were designed by Charlie who is a programmer/game-designer. He is not educated in notions of space and artistic ideas about figure/ground nor architectural ideas about space and anit-space.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would be surprised.
<!--quoteo(post=1925118:date=Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If ns2 maps were to be compared to conceptual ideas of space, we are in pre 20th century ideas. Ns2_turtle is based on contemporary ideas of space. Playtesters are also not educated in such notions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm amazed at how you got this clearly false info. In actual fact, a number of playtesters have degrees in art and design, graphic design and architecture. I myself have 2 degrees in both art and design, graphic design and numerous certificates in others. I'd ask you please not jump to conclusions about who you are dealing with.
<!--quoteo(post=1925118:date=Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you make a judgment about the balancing of turtle, I suggest you play several games on the b2c1 version. I think all playtesters should play this map, it will give you a completely different insight on NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have played most of your versions, very thoroughly. Personally, I'm not a fan. Some people are some people are not. I think the basic layout needs more work personally. Just as a matter of info, your posts have a very condescending tone to them. I'd appreciate it that you keep civil, thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1924849:date=Apr 13 2012, 12:56 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't expect it to be passed down nor distributed to other people than those involved. Oh well...
Here is a little lesson in balance for you kouji. As much as the game is geared towards a certain tempo, that tempo can be scaled either in abundance or scarcity. By adding or removing things from the planned tempo. The map is balanced on itself, not on a series of rules. Not because it doesn't follow these rules does it mean things are going wrong.
If both teams have access to an equivalent number of rts, the map is balanced on that. You can still hurt the other team's economy in reference to what your team is doing. If your team holds all the rts offered to you, yet you deny the rts offered to the other team, on the reference of the map's balance, you are hurting the other team's economy because you are getting tech quicker then them on the map's tempo.
The game has a balance and a map has a balance. The map scales the game's balance. If I break one of the game's rules, I have to find something to balance it. For example if I give a distance where marines can snipe a hive, I have to give aliens the possibility of getting to that snipe range for example.
I don't know if you've watched the match archaea vs exetus <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/314760533" target="_blank">ns2 live stream, turtle on 56mins</a>. Archaea know the map very well and you need to have played many games on this map before you understand it. But you can see how a good team that knows the map can dominate the other and hurt the other's economy. In that vid I hear Hugh saying that Charlie is wondering how to balance. This is exactly what this map is about and is why it is preferred for competitive games because it favors teams skill and strategy.
I have a deep understanding of order and balance, nothing is random in this map. You cannot understand this map by comparing it to a series of rules one has to follow. Nor can you understand it comparing it to other maps.
As much as things will seem weird to you and unconventional (7tps, loads of rts), I can make it work. I am a man of the forests and mountains. I know the order of nature and reality taught to me by many wise men. I do not need a path to know where I am going. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best post I read for a long time! Turtle is a very well balanced map where skill and positioning counts, for Aliens and Marines.
If you take a look on the RTs around hall taht are 4s away from eachother, but its that door that gives an advantage for the aliens, and the door by engine can be used to trap Fades if you lock it.
Every thing implemented is very well though out for competive play (like the clandestiny maps for CS), it seems chaotic but has a great flow if you know how the map works for each class. You can't use the routes as Onos that a Skulk takes, and a Fade will never travel the paths that a Lerk takes. So you need to learn the map with every class again. The other maps just seperate the Skulkspaths from the other classes.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1925129:date=Apr 13 2012, 03:16 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Apr 13 2012, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would be surprised.
I'm amazed at how you got this clearly false info. In actual fact, a number of playtesters have degrees in art and design, graphic design and architecture. I myself have 2 degrees in both art and design, graphic design and numerous certificates in others. I'd ask you please not jump to conclusions about who you are dealing with.
We have played most of your versions, very thoroughly. Personally, I'm not a fan. Some people are some people are not. I think the basic layout needs more work personally. Just as a matter of info, your posts have a very condescending tone to them. I'd appreciate it that you keep civil, thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok maybe I am jumping to conclusions and I am sorry for that, but I have not seen a single map that uses these principles and this is why I made such conclusions. If you guys have been playing on it I am very thankful. If you don't like it, well I am not trying to please everyone.
Concerning tone. I am writing with a very calm mind and have no intention to put myself up or whatsoever. If I was talking to you in person it would sound very civil. I know this is written and on internet so there is interpretation, if you knew me in real life you wouldn't have such judgment of my tone.
Now, tone. How do you guys see tone from written text? That tone is your interpretation, because I have absolute no idea where you guys are getting that from.
I have been extremely civil as I would talk to anyone. And I am a very loving and loved person, but now you guys are starting to be very uncivil yourselves and If I hurt your feelings with what I wrote, maybe I am talking too much truth you can handle? I admit, now I am angry with you guys.
Again I am sorry if there are things that are not going YOUR way in ns2_turtle. I am not there to please playtesters and do what you guys want of me. I am working for those who like what it has to offer, and that is good enough for me.
edit: Peace! This is <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->not<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> a competition! Its all about having fun! And giving people fun times!
Well i think its very valid and good suggestions from the playtesters actually, (tho i really wonder who is leaking private testbuilds from our small ensl gang (since hugh didnt cast v3 playtest matches) - guess we need a undercover agent infiltrating the playtesters and leaking their internal map builds to us too. :P)
Mapping guidelines are there for a reason sure.
Talking about vb2c1 Tho the map feels a lot better for marines, because it counterweights the current balance problems of maps and gamemechanics favouring aliens a bit - so its a relative marine friendly map if you know it well enough. (where, when and how to distribute pressure etc)
Sadly the ns2 statistics page about maps(the only one i know) wasnt updated in a long while and seems to be even broken currently (http://endgamestats.own.cz/), so even tho playtesters feel like its not only marine friendly but favours them, playing the map and also statistics told us something else. (tho we are talking about the past until now and not of possible future balanced builds) Compared to the global stats we always had like 10-20% more alien wins in the statistic. (turtle is only played in organized ensl and euro clan matches[or at least euro team are usually involved in some way]) So when it was 60-70% alien wins on other maps (mostly pub player data) we had like 70-90% alien wins on turtle. (especially back in the days were ensl matches more less exclusively had players from euro clans like duplex, hbz, us and well know individuals like fana every now and then etc.)
Tho having said that about statistics, its not like we didnt also play official maps a lot. Compared to turtle there were patches we didnt see a possible single marine win on those maps.
Since marines had a better chance to also win every now and then. => ppl liked to play turtle better and considered it better balanced even tho it has some flaws and ignores the mapping guidelines quite a bit.
Back to v3 It has some interesting ideas, tho it needs a lot more feedback... i feel like its trying to do a bit too much in a single hit, we should analyze the current build a bit better and focus on slowly improving it instead of trashing maybe too much and placing lot of changes that didnt really have any playtesting at all. (so they might be useless or make the situation worse or go into a wrong direction)
Tho we dont need to be strictly by the rules, turtle can do fine even if official sources dont like it is ignoring parts of the mapping guidelines etc. (nobody depends on official approval, sure it helps to get your map played by everybody automatically, but its not something you have to aim for to get it loved by the community, or at least parts of the community)
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
I want to excuse myself again if I hurt some feelings, it was definitely not my intention.
I know it becomes a sensitive issue when we become so fond of our projects, and certain remarks can be misunderstood. Especially when we want them to see them as negative but with a positive mindset those words can have a completely different outcome.
I do not ignore the Guidelines, I have extensively read them over and over again myself and the map is extensively based on what I interpreted of them. When I break one of the rules, I do it very consciously and I put a lot of thought into it. To break the rules you have to know the rule well first. I never break the rules just for the fun of breaking the rules to say "hey look guys, I broke your rules," I did something unbalanced and I break the rule to balance it.
Lets take an example. The vent from loading to bridge which cannot be seen by the commander, level over level. It breaks the rules. Why did I break the rules? Because you can get a vision of the hive from that vent as a marine, you can also get in it easily as a marine. This is why I broke the rule to balance that vent. It can be used by a marine but without the support of the commander. This is how I interpret balance. When I do something that is not balanced, I break the rule to balance it.
Talking to Zeikko, he pointed something out to me "Here in France i find that people are talking about each other's skills and talents pretty openly. But in many places you can't do that." I think he might be right and this is where there might also be a misunderstanding, as I am a Frenchman and act like one. I might of been too open to things you guys aren't open about.
We are all working for the good of NS2. Each in our own way. If I didn't care about NS2, do you guys think I would put over three years of my life in making a map for it?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
People like turtle. it gets a lot of play from the competitive community. UWE and the pts would like to see the map continue to improve. The reason for that is we can see the community enjoying it and having a good time. However, there is a lot of knowledge about things that we hope isn't being ignored.
In the past I've been very stubborn and the pts hate this quality in me. In some regard its the nature of being an artist, that you're going to have to provide a vision and a belief in what you're doing. But in other regards, it can hold you back if you're not willing to humbly accept feedback and take it all as serious as a heart attack. Otherwise, the feedback will stop, and you will be left with nothing but positive comments, and improvements that could have been made will be lost.
I sincerely hope you can start to see that when I criticize your lighting, for instance, I'm doing it because I believe I have some reason to be making that point. It's not out of spite. It's really not. I think there are issues. Thats not me being an ######, it's me trying to help. That's the way this constructive criticism works. You have to accept it, and that means accepting that I don't know everything, nor does anybody else... You know that. So, my advise would be, if it were me, and it has been in the past, just accept the feedback and accept that nobody knows everything, least of all yourself. It means stepping away from the keyboard, taking a walk, and just simply thinking. That means -- no long responses. Just "thank you for feedback" -- and a walk with your thoughts.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
I love the feedback and I thank you all for it, I take everything positively for the good of turtle and ns2. Everything is taken into account and I do not ignore anything.
Can I make the map that I want to make? With my own rules and ideas. Pretty pleeeeaaassse? :D
I will accept its flaws and be responsible for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1925169:date=Apr 13 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I didn't care about NS2, do you guys think I would put over three years of my life in making a map for it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe Evil_bOb1 is being told off in his own thread. If the competitive-community fancies his map, then it is a design to be reckoned with (as the competitive-scene tends to get these things right). After the numerous design-farces on part of UWE, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in their opinions.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1925129:date=Apr 13 2012, 09:16 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Apr 13 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the basic layout needs more work personally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The funny thing is, that his "basic layout" is more interesting than any of the official maps. It feels more like an "open map" instead of corridors with lots of space in between, leading to room after room(official maps), ie. boring layout. Saying that the layout needs more work, what specificly are you talking about? It's the best NS2 have seen so far. I would say that evilbob's weakest side so far have been the visuals, but the shapes of rooms are amazingly well thought out. Judging from the b3 playtest and his screenshots, I don't worry about the visuals at all. Turtle is getting a great facelift. However, I'm sceptical about the new tech points, they seem redundant for aliens.
Also, I see people complain about the amount of res nodes on turtle. I genuinely disagree with those comments. While the nodes seem relatively close to the base, they take effort to hold, from both teams. As there are not long walking distances between the friendly and enemy nodes, which means that pressuring the other teams resnodes is even more encouraged than other maps like summit for example, where the nodes are sometimes further away than the main hive is(due to close-spawns). The amount of rts are fine, even if it doesn't follow the official walking distances. If you get the upper hand in amount of kills, you can get to the resnodes with relative ease, dislike official maps. Both teams can capture 3, if not more, extra resnodes within the first minute, if the other team doesn't prevent it. The map really emphazises attacking res nodes, due to the smaller distances between friendly and enemy nodes. This also results in fast paced and fun gameplay. Something the official mappers could learn from. Kind of agreed with player's post above.
Comments
Nancy? :-)
Today I've watched an NS2HD playtest on this map and did a thorough run throught it and must say: Hell of a crazy layout you've got there, I like it! :-) Also I've noticed some clever and interesting props use. I think, with some support from devs (custom props and such), this map should go official.
Good work
I am proud of my work :)
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-04-11_00002.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Marines blocking Onos with buildings seems to happen more often on Turtle than it does on most other maps I play though, wonder why that is...
It is out already but is usually not on the normal map rotation, your best chance of getting a game on it is through the <a href="http://www.ensl.org" target="_blank">ensl gathers (www.ensl.org).</a>
<ul><li>Ladders at cargo need a redesign now that aliens can't use them any more and the amount of cysts you need to get to the from resnode to resnode is too high to get to using the starting res. Not so much an issue later on in the game but this leads me to the second issue...
</li><li>There are way too many resnodes and techpoints on the map. Both teams are simply overflowing with resources, even when focusing on taking down resnodes. Which completely bypasses the part where you can actually influence the enemy's economy. The surplus of techpoints also make it quite favourable for aliens, since marines have to lock down too many. It somehow looks like the techpoints and resnodes were simply thrown in at random, without keeping an eye on walking distance or number of cysts needed...
</li><li>ARCs can shoot at techpoints from areas that are very easy to defend or simply too far away from the techpoint that is under attack (both middle techpoints for example).
</li><li>Level over level areas are weird to deal with as commander (kinda against the rules as well :) ), but acceptable to some extent...
</li><li>And most Hive areas are snipe-able from long range</li></ul>
Thanks for taking the time to find issues :p
Here is a little lesson in balance for you kouji. As much as the game is geared towards a certain tempo, that tempo can be scaled either in abundance or scarcity. By adding or removing things from the planned tempo. The map is balanced on itself, not on a series of rules. Not because it doesn't follow these rules does it mean things are going wrong.
If both teams have access to an equivalent number of rts, the map is balanced on that. You can still hurt the other team's economy in reference to what your team is doing. If your team holds all the rts offered to you, yet you deny the rts offered to the other team, on the reference of the map's balance, you are hurting the other team's economy because you are getting tech quicker then them on the map's tempo.
The game has a balance and a map has a balance. The map scales the game's balance. If I break one of the game's rules, I have to find something to balance it. For example if I give a distance where marines can snipe a hive, I have to give aliens the possibility of getting to that snipe range for example.
I don't know if you've watched the match archaea vs exetus <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/314760533" target="_blank">ns2 live stream, turtle on 56mins</a>. Archaea know the map very well and you need to have played many games on this map before you understand it. But you can see how a good team that knows the map can dominate the other and hurt the other's economy. In that vid I hear Hugh saying that Charlie is wondering how to balance. This is exactly what this map is about and is why it is preferred for competitive games because it favors teams skill and strategy.
I have a deep understanding of order and balance, nothing is random in this map. You cannot understand this map by comparing it to a series of rules one has to follow. Nor can you understand it comparing it to other maps.
As much as things will seem weird to you and unconventional (7tps, loads of rts), I can make it work. I am a man of the forests and mountains. I know the order of nature and reality taught to me by many wise men. I do not need a path to know where I am going. :p
<ul><li>Ladders at cargo need a redesign now that aliens can't use them any more and the amount of cysts you need to get to the from resnode to resnode is too high to get to using the starting res. Not so much an issue later on in the game but this leads me to the second issue...
</li><li>There are way too many resnodes and techpoints on the map. Both teams are simply overflowing with resources, even when focusing on taking down resnodes. Which completely bypasses the part where you can actually influence the enemy's economy. The surplus of techpoints also make it quite favourable for aliens, since marines have to lock down too many. It somehow looks like the techpoints and resnodes were simply thrown in at random, without keeping an eye on walking distance or number of cysts needed...
</li><li>ARCs can shoot at techpoints from areas that are very easy to defend or simply too far away from the techpoint that is under attack (both middle techpoints for example).
</li><li>Level over level areas are weird to deal with as commander (kinda against the rules as well :) ), but acceptable to some extent...
</li><li>And most Hive areas are snipe-able from long range</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ladders were added for this version and didn't even exist before. Aliens are fine without the ladders. It restricts Gorge's movement little bit but i think it's all intended and working fine.
There are plenty of resnodes so it plays little bit differently than other maps but it feels much more balanced with the current gameplay mechanics than any other map. This might change in the future but I am sure Evil Bob will act accordingly. The amount of tech points doesnt really hurt anybody, some of them might prove to be useless though. It remains to be seen after more playtesting.
You can attack the sieging ARCs pretty fast trough vents in the middle TPs.
Level over lever areas are the best thing in this map. I think they should be encouraged more by the community and the mapping guidelines should take a deeper analysis than saying "no no". Level over level geometry gives a lot to the gameplay because it makes movement and positioning skills so much more important. The level over level positions are small and carefully thought. There are always places to build phase gates, armories etc without multiple levels messing commanders view too much. Players also have to live with the fact that they can't get medpacks under catwalks and into vents, but that just gives more importance to the positioning.
Snipable hives are fine as long as aliens have multiple ways to get out of the hive room and surprise the snipers from behind. To be honest i'm quite sick of having tight close combat on the hives. Lerk - skulk - combo just decimates the marines over and over. It's fun to see marines shootign hive from far away and aliens having to defend it agressively instead of just gassing and healing blindly around the hive.
Hmm, I didn't expect this condescending tone, I find it quite amusing actually. It's not like I actually called you out on anything. I'm just stating simple rules and facts that define the very essence and core of NS2 gameplay. You do realise that in my years of balancing and mapping experience, I always try to help out when I see things that could indeed be classified as highly questionable decisions.
The "A team that knows the map can outplay a team that is still figuring it out" and concluding from that, the map is balanced. I'd say that is not a very valid point.
But fair enough, I've said my peace and if you guys are simply brushing the points made off as "oh you don't know what you're talking about", I'm done. It seems you guys are just a tad bit too hostile when pointing out quite obvious issues... Oh well, can't say I didn't try :)
I think i realize the purpose of the mapping guidelines but at least the ones I read last time were very outdated. I just want to say that the lever over level works very good and the number of res nodes and their positioning makes the b2 version very balanced. With the current gameplay i find turtle the most balanced map. I haven't played the b3 enough to tell anything about the rt positioning in it.
That hostility remark was addressed at you Zeikko ;)
As said. I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to be hostile. We're all just trying to help Evil Bob make a good map here. No reason to be hostile over a game.
Peace, love and good games!
Peace, love and good games!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hot damn, no I dea what happened there! What I meant to type was:
"That hostility remark <b>wasn't</b> addressed at you Zeikko"
"That hostility remark <b>wasn't</b> addressed at you Zeikko"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I was thinking if it was possible for you to get offended from my statements. I'm glad that I was wrong. Now let's get back to the topic.
Anyway. I know NS2 is a complex game, and ns2_turtle is a complex map based on the complex game. It is funny you mention level over level because this map is in a sense a level of balance over the level of balance in NS2.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->
I do not try the balance the game with the map. I start with the premise that the game is balanced in itself. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> From there I can create a new order of things based on the orders of NS2. Please read my post again with a calm mind and try to understand what I'm saying.
Again I state that if you are trying to understand this map with conventional NS2 map design it won't make sense to you. Because it is based on a completely different frame of mind and consciousness. I have said it already but say it again, I am going to do a video about how the layout is designed for ns2_turtle and the philosophical ideas behind it.
To give you a head start, traditional ns2_maps are "closed spaced," this is an architectural concept which stems from the idea that we build rooms. Since the end of the 19th century a different philosophical idea has come about, what we call "modern space," anti-space" or "free-flowing space" which comes in parallel to cubists ideal of space, the bauhaus school of though or architects like LeCorbusier, Frank Lloyd Wright and many more.
/
Concerning what I say when a good team can dominate the other. This does show balance because if teams are equal then there is no domination and the stalemate arises. This sentence was put out on a different idea though about the map which rewards strategy. The balancing of the map is something completely different.
/
The guidelines were designed by Charlie who is a programmer/game-designer. He is not educated in notions of space and artistic ideas about figure/ground nor architectural ideas about space and anit-space. If ns2 maps were to be compared to conceptual ideas of space, we are in pre 20th century ideas. Ns2_turtle is based on contemporary ideas of space. Playtesters are also not educated in such notions.
Before you make a judgment about the balancing of turtle, I suggest you play several games on the b2c1 version. I think all playtesters should play this map, it will give you a completely different insight on NS2.
You would be surprised.
<!--quoteo(post=1925118:date=Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If ns2 maps were to be compared to conceptual ideas of space, we are in pre 20th century ideas. Ns2_turtle is based on contemporary ideas of space. Playtesters are also not educated in such notions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm amazed at how you got this clearly false info. In actual fact, a number of playtesters have degrees in art and design, graphic design and architecture. I myself have 2 degrees in both art and design, graphic design and numerous certificates in others. I'd ask you please not jump to conclusions about who you are dealing with.
<!--quoteo(post=1925118:date=Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 13 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you make a judgment about the balancing of turtle, I suggest you play several games on the b2c1 version. I think all playtesters should play this map, it will give you a completely different insight on NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have played most of your versions, very thoroughly. Personally, I'm not a fan. Some people are some people are not. I think the basic layout needs more work personally.
Just as a matter of info, your posts have a very condescending tone to them. I'd appreciate it that you keep civil, thanks.
Here is a little lesson in balance for you kouji. As much as the game is geared towards a certain tempo, that tempo can be scaled either in abundance or scarcity. By adding or removing things from the planned tempo. The map is balanced on itself, not on a series of rules. Not because it doesn't follow these rules does it mean things are going wrong.
If both teams have access to an equivalent number of rts, the map is balanced on that. You can still hurt the other team's economy in reference to what your team is doing. If your team holds all the rts offered to you, yet you deny the rts offered to the other team, on the reference of the map's balance, you are hurting the other team's economy because you are getting tech quicker then them on the map's tempo.
The game has a balance and a map has a balance. The map scales the game's balance. If I break one of the game's rules, I have to find something to balance it. For example if I give a distance where marines can snipe a hive, I have to give aliens the possibility of getting to that snipe range for example.
I don't know if you've watched the match archaea vs exetus <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/314760533" target="_blank">ns2 live stream, turtle on 56mins</a>. Archaea know the map very well and you need to have played many games on this map before you understand it. But you can see how a good team that knows the map can dominate the other and hurt the other's economy. In that vid I hear Hugh saying that Charlie is wondering how to balance. This is exactly what this map is about and is why it is preferred for competitive games because it favors teams skill and strategy.
I have a deep understanding of order and balance, nothing is random in this map. You cannot understand this map by comparing it to a series of rules one has to follow. Nor can you understand it comparing it to other maps.
As much as things will seem weird to you and unconventional (7tps, loads of rts), I can make it work. I am a man of the forests and mountains. I know the order of nature and reality taught to me by many wise men. I do not need a path to know where I am going. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best post I read for a long time! Turtle is a very well balanced map where skill and positioning counts, for Aliens and Marines.
If you take a look on the RTs around hall taht are 4s away from eachother, but its that door that gives an advantage for the aliens, and the door by engine can be used to trap Fades if you lock it.
Every thing implemented is very well though out for competive play (like the clandestiny maps for CS), it seems chaotic but has a great flow if you know how the map works for each class.
You can't use the routes as Onos that a Skulk takes, and a Fade will never travel the paths that a Lerk takes.
So you need to learn the map with every class again. The other maps just seperate the Skulkspaths from the other classes.
I'm amazed at how you got this clearly false info. In actual fact, a number of playtesters have degrees in art and design, graphic design and architecture. I myself have 2 degrees in both art and design, graphic design and numerous certificates in others. I'd ask you please not jump to conclusions about who you are dealing with.
We have played most of your versions, very thoroughly. Personally, I'm not a fan. Some people are some people are not. I think the basic layout needs more work personally.
Just as a matter of info, your posts have a very condescending tone to them. I'd appreciate it that you keep civil, thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok maybe I am jumping to conclusions and I am sorry for that, but I have not seen a single map that uses these principles and this is why I made such conclusions. If you guys have been playing on it I am very thankful. If you don't like it, well I am not trying to please everyone.
Concerning tone. I am writing with a very calm mind and have no intention to put myself up or whatsoever. If I was talking to you in person it would sound very civil. I know this is written and on internet so there is interpretation, if you knew me in real life you wouldn't have such judgment of my tone.
Now, tone. How do you guys see tone from written text? That tone is your interpretation, because I have absolute no idea where you guys are getting that from.
I have been extremely civil as I would talk to anyone. And I am a very loving and loved person, but now you guys are starting to be very uncivil yourselves and If I hurt your feelings with what I wrote, maybe I am talking too much truth you can handle? I admit, now I am angry with you guys.
Again I am sorry if there are things that are not going YOUR way in ns2_turtle. I am not there to please playtesters and do what you guys want of me. I am working for those who like what it has to offer, and that is good enough for me.
edit: Peace! This is <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->not<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> a competition! Its all about having fun! And giving people fun times!
Mapping guidelines are there for a reason sure.
Talking about vb2c1
Tho the map feels a lot better for marines, because it counterweights the current balance problems of maps and gamemechanics favouring aliens a bit - so its a relative marine friendly map if you know it well enough. (where, when and how to distribute pressure etc)
Sadly the ns2 statistics page about maps(the only one i know) wasnt updated in a long while and seems to be even broken currently (http://endgamestats.own.cz/), so even tho playtesters feel like its not only marine friendly but favours them, playing the map and also statistics told us something else. (tho we are talking about the past until now and not of possible future balanced builds)
Compared to the global stats we always had like 10-20% more alien wins in the statistic. (turtle is only played in organized ensl and euro clan matches[or at least euro team are usually involved in some way])
So when it was 60-70% alien wins on other maps (mostly pub player data) we had like 70-90% alien wins on turtle. (especially back in the days were ensl matches more less exclusively had players from euro clans like duplex, hbz, us and well know individuals like fana every now and then etc.)
Tho having said that about statistics, its not like we didnt also play official maps a lot. Compared to turtle there were patches we didnt see a possible single marine win on those maps.
Since marines had a better chance to also win every now and then. => ppl liked to play turtle better and considered it better balanced even tho it has some flaws and ignores the mapping guidelines quite a bit.
Back to v3
It has some interesting ideas, tho it needs a lot more feedback... i feel like its trying to do a bit too much in a single hit, we should analyze the current build a bit better and focus on slowly improving it instead of trashing maybe too much and placing lot of changes that didnt really have any playtesting at all. (so they might be useless or make the situation worse or go into a wrong direction)
Tho we dont need to be strictly by the rules, turtle can do fine even if official sources dont like it is ignoring parts of the mapping guidelines etc. (nobody depends on official approval, sure it helps to get your map played by everybody automatically, but its not something you have to aim for to get it loved by the community, or at least parts of the community)
I know it becomes a sensitive issue when we become so fond of our projects, and certain remarks can be misunderstood. Especially when we want them to see them as negative but with a positive mindset those words can have a completely different outcome.
I do not ignore the Guidelines, I have extensively read them over and over again myself and the map is extensively based on what I interpreted of them. When I break one of the rules, I do it very consciously and I put a lot of thought into it. To break the rules you have to know the rule well first. I never break the rules just for the fun of breaking the rules to say "hey look guys, I broke your rules," I did something unbalanced and I break the rule to balance it.
Lets take an example. The vent from loading to bridge which cannot be seen by the commander, level over level. It breaks the rules. Why did I break the rules? Because you can get a vision of the hive from that vent as a marine, you can also get in it easily as a marine. This is why I broke the rule to balance that vent. It can be used by a marine but without the support of the commander. This is how I interpret balance. When I do something that is not balanced, I break the rule to balance it.
Talking to Zeikko, he pointed something out to me "Here in France i find that people are talking about each other's skills and talents pretty openly. But in many places you can't do that." I think he might be right and this is where there might also be a misunderstanding, as I am a Frenchman and act like one. I might of been too open to things you guys aren't open about.
We are all working for the good of NS2. Each in our own way. If I didn't care about NS2, do you guys think I would put over three years of my life in making a map for it?
edit. spelling/grammar
In the past I've been very stubborn and the pts hate this quality in me. In some regard its the nature of being an artist, that you're going to have to provide a vision and a belief in what you're doing. But in other regards, it can hold you back if you're not willing to humbly accept feedback and take it all as serious as a heart attack. Otherwise, the feedback will stop, and you will be left with nothing but positive comments, and improvements that could have been made will be lost.
I sincerely hope you can start to see that when I criticize your lighting, for instance, I'm doing it because I believe I have some reason to be making that point. It's not out of spite. It's really not. I think there are issues. Thats not me being an ######, it's me trying to help. That's the way this constructive criticism works. You have to accept it, and that means accepting that I don't know everything, nor does anybody else... You know that. So, my advise would be, if it were me, and it has been in the past, just accept the feedback and accept that nobody knows everything, least of all yourself. It means stepping away from the keyboard, taking a walk, and just simply thinking. That means -- no long responses. Just "thank you for feedback" -- and a walk with your thoughts.
Can I make the map that I want to make? With my own rules and ideas. Pretty pleeeeaaassse? :D
I will accept its flaws and be responsible for it.
i hear that.
The funny thing is, that his "basic layout" is more interesting than any of the official maps.
It feels more like an "open map" instead of corridors with lots of space in between, leading to room after room(official maps), ie. boring layout.
Saying that the layout needs more work, what specificly are you talking about? It's the best NS2 have seen so far.
I would say that evilbob's weakest side so far have been the visuals, but the shapes of rooms are amazingly well thought out.
Judging from the b3 playtest and his screenshots, I don't worry about the visuals at all. Turtle is getting a great facelift.
However, I'm sceptical about the new tech points, they seem redundant for aliens.
Also, I see people complain about the amount of res nodes on turtle. I genuinely disagree with those comments.
While the nodes seem relatively close to the base, they take effort to hold, from both teams.
As there are not long walking distances between the friendly and enemy nodes, which means that pressuring the other teams resnodes is even more encouraged than other maps like summit for example, where the nodes are sometimes further away than the main hive is(due to close-spawns).
The amount of rts are fine, even if it doesn't follow the official walking distances.
If you get the upper hand in amount of kills, you can get to the resnodes with relative ease, dislike official maps.
Both teams can capture 3, if not more, extra resnodes within the first minute, if the other team doesn't prevent it.
The map really emphazises attacking res nodes, due to the smaller distances between friendly and enemy nodes.
This also results in fast paced and fun gameplay. Something the official mappers could learn from.
Kind of agreed with player's post above.