<!--quoteo(post=1932112:date=May 1 2012, 07:21 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 1 2012, 07:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cause it raped Obraxis in a dark alleyway, or so the story goes. He won't let it become official unless it has been castrated first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fortunately, player is not in charge of playtesting maps. For public play, I'm afraid the map does not play well ir conform to the mapping guidelines. I test every map that gets released. While I have no say in what gets to be 'official' I do give my opinions. I also make sure all the other Playtesters voices are heard about maps and their feedback.
Also, I would appreciate you acting like an adult player. Right now you are showing yourself acting unbecoming of a senior member of the community. While I appreciate your efforts with overmind, I do not appreciate your attitude.
Evil bob, if you would like to speak more about why I think the nap layout could be improved, PM me and I am more than willing to help.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2012
Mapping guide lines? Really? Why should all maps follow such arbitrary constrictions when game play has already proven its self to work so well on this map?
We already had this discussion, let's not have it again !
Btw, you can also modify the map yourselves : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118174" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118174</a>
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Sorry, I haven't read the thread to see the same discussion. What confuses me about all this is that Mineshaft was A ok for official release months ago, but Turtle isn't. How bizarre.
<!--quoteo(post=1932134:date=May 1 2012, 08:58 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, I haven't read the thread to see the same discussion. What confuses me about all this is that Mineshaft was A ok for official release months ago, but Turtle isn't. How bizarre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1932132:date=May 1 2012, 08:51 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mapping guide lines? Really? Why should all maps follow such arbitrary constrictions when game play has already proven its self to work so well on this map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind if mapping guidelines are not followed, as long as a map is fun to play for both public and competitive. If this was just for competitive play then fine, but evil bob and a fee others wonder why it is not beiing played by the public. It's not due to maps not auto-downloading. Most people know how.to do that or google search for the map at this stage. its because if its layout and design. Which I am more than willing to help evil bob improve.
Do you mean to say if I would jump on a public right now, and ask a random guy about turtle, he would say he knows it but doesn't want to play it due to balance-issues with public-play? That's such bollocks, I'd probably just get a "huh? turtle? what's that?"-answer in return. It IS because there is no auto-downloading. The public at large does not know about this map, or otherwise cannot be bothered to manually install it, especially when there are so few active servers in NS2 to begin with, let alone ones with turtle on it. It's mostly regulars (and as such, usually competitive players) that know about this map.
<!--quoteo(post=1932134:date=May 1 2012, 07:58 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, I haven't read the thread to see the same discussion. What confuses me about all this is that Mineshaft was A ok for official release months ago, but Turtle isn't. How bizarre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few pages ago, someone started criticizing turtle along the same lines ("don't follow the guidelines,...") which provoked the same kind of reaction form people who play turtle ("guidelines are outdated, turtle is better than official maps, ..."), it wasn't the most fruitful discussion.
@Obraxis, I asked many times to include community maps (turtle and triad mainly), as community maps I mean (not officials ones) into the game (it's just a few additional mega to the patch, 2 minutes of work) until server download is done, so that server admin can put them into the map pool. It's really a shame that finished maps are not played and don't get more useful feedback because of this. As a playtester it is your duty to spam uwe about it and to support map creators.
I agree with Yuuki, its quite horrible that this map - which some of us beleive is the best map created so far - doesnt get more support from UWE and playtesters.
<!--quoteo(post=1932138:date=May 1 2012, 09:08 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 1 2012, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you mean to say if I would jump on a public right now, and ask a random guy about turtle, he would say he knows it but doesn't want to play it due to balance-issues with public-play? That's such bollocks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your opinion :-)
<!--quoteo(post=1932140:date=May 1 2012, 09:19 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say you don't mind about guidelines, but then mention it isn't approved due to its layout. Might have a contradiction on our hands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually read what I typed, I never said it was not approved due to it's layout. And I as I already stated, I dont get to approve maps for inclusion the devs do.
<!--quoteo(post=1932143:date=May 1 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 1 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Obraxis, I asked many times to include community maps (turtle and triad mainly), as community maps I mean (not officials ones) into the game (it's just a few additional mega to the patch, 2 minutes of work) until server download is done, so that server admin can put them into the map pool. It's really a shame that finished maps are not played and don't get more useful feedback because of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Map downloading is in the works, the devs have already said this many times. For now, Server admins can just download the map and put it in rotation.
<!--quoteo(post=1932143:date=May 1 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 1 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a playtester it is your duty to spam uwe about it and to support map creators.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not my duty to spam them with information they already know. And I think they are supporting map creators with things such as Tools, Bug fixes, map rotation, new features on the way like auto-downloading and the new Squad 5 initiative. That's more than most developers do at this stage of game development.
It's not so simple as making it an official map, or turning on auto-download. He'd have to hand the map over, etc. Also, I find it hilarious that the same people complaining about all the bad things UWE does (the old "adding features over performance" crap) are the same people wanting this feature in without even recognizing they're doing just what they're complaining about.
Really though... why are you guys trying to give priority over bug fixes and balanced game-play to a map? If that's not what's happening, I apologize in advance, but that's what it looks like to me...
<!--quoteo(post=1932134:date=May 1 2012, 09:58 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, I haven't read the thread to see the same discussion. What confuses me about all this is that Mineshaft was A ok for official release months ago, but Turtle isn't. How bizarre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One is made by UWE and the other isn't? Bizarre that an official mapper makes an official map, I know.
Go on duplex website, click on download, copy the maps in the build, done. It literally takes 2 minutes to do.
It's not so only about turtle, which is played quite a lot, think about triad; the guy spent huge amount of time doing the map, it looks very good, probably has some gameplay issues, but it's not played or very little, isn't that a bit sad?
Integrating it in a build would bring so much more feedback, not even talking about the fun for everybody to play a new map.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One is made by UWE and the other isn't? Bizarre that an official mapper makes an official map, I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huur.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really though... why are you guys trying to give priority over bug fixes and balanced game-play to a map? If that's not what's happening, I apologize in advance, but that's what it looks like to me...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding a complete map, created and maintained by the author isn't the same as adding a feature. Copy map into NS2 directory and include in patch. Not sure where bug fixes comes into it.
Natural Selection 2 has a huge advantage over other games with custom map support. Take Left 4 Dead for example, campaigns for that game are often 100mb-300mb downloads. When maps are as compact in size as they are, it's advantageous to include these finished and popular custom maps because:
<ul><li>Author gets a wealth of feedback</li><li>Players can experience other maps</li><li>Players can <b>adapt</b> to different styles of maps</li><li>Everyone always has an up to date version of the map</li><li>Unknown mapping projects can be highlighted</li><li>Motivation to create even more custom content</li></ul>
Doesn't make any sense as to why some maps can't be included in the build. Yeah you can allow server admin to throw it into rotation, but when half the server doesn't have the map, and that map loads, you just killed the server, so whats the point?
These maps won't get played and won't get the REAL feedback that they need (cumulative overall feedback(everyone), not just dev, not just pt).
If UWE and others are so worried about certain map guidelines, or their game "image" being damaged. just have the game overlay a bit of red text that says "Unofficial Map" at the top. Boy that was hard.
Its just sad when community built content gets filtered.
Too bad Valve didn't pop into NS's development and say, "you know what, this mod doesn't meet our guidelines, sorry."
By looking at the screenshots I don't think it has the visual quality UWE wants their map to have. Overal the map looks good, but it's a bit boxy and a lot of elements in the map need to be scaled to more human dimensions, lot's of things seem out-of-place.
I think what Xerond just suggested is actually a reasonable idea:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If UWE and others are so worried about certain map guidelines, or their game "image" being damaged. just have the game overlay a bit of red text that says "Unofficial Map" at the top.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I think UWE does want to have a set image for its game as can be attested by the certain standard of visual quality the official maps have. And it is not difficult to see that turtle is made with a completely different mindset.
One thing I have also heard a lot is that turtle doesn't feel like a real place that much. The thing is, I don't try to make it look real, nor create a believable world when I created the map. This map is designed just for fun and gameplay possibilities. And that is why the rooms don't really have logical connections, but the rooms are connected in a way as to create strategical importance and division of the flow that exist between the two teams. For example bridge, which logically we could image would connect to hub, but having it only connect south and north creates a division of the flow as players choose to move either right, center (hub) or left (bridge).
If you take this map, and judge it in comparison with other official maps, personally if think you are not looking at it with the right eye, because it is not trying to be what official maps are. It is purposely something different, and it wasn't made to prove that the difference should be standard, but rather NS2 is solid enough that it can work in many ways.
As much as I would love it to be considered official, I truly understand why it is not official. If I tried to make it official like, I think I would kill its spirit, because this is not a human like structure but an organic animal. I understand that UWE, because it feels it has to compete against the AAA titles of huge companies, feels it has to do something that compares to AAA titles. While me as a mapper, I don't really have to compete with anyone but myself, and it is only a work where I can access my personal achievements and push my limits.
To bring things together. What I would love to see in the future is official custom map-packs, of maps like turtle which bring something different. So then UWE could support the diffusion of these maps, yet keep its distance towards them and make it clear that these maps are independent creations and don't play like other official maps.
I think we also have to recognize that each of us has his own opinion. Those that believe turtle is the best map, believe so because of the gameplay possibilities, and I think that is why competitive players love this map because it offers them choices official maps don't, while if we look at things from a visual standpoint, turtle is definitely not the best map out there. This also shows how not everyone wants the same thing out of NS2. Making a generalization, American players love their immersion and visuals, which is something of their social construct, while European players care more about the gameplay feel, which is also something of their social construct. It is definitely much more complicated than that, with many things that come in question and borders that are not as clear.
It all depends at who we look up to. UWE looking up to AAA titles, feels he is the underdog, the crazy one among them doing something a little different. Yet me looking up to UWE, I feel I am the underdog, the crazy one among them doing something a little different. When I say UWE can learn from this map, it is not saying that turtle like maps should be the standard, but saying, don't worry to much about appearances and look for a gameplay feel which is unique to each map. That rules only establish a zone of comfort for yourself, a border so you can imagine that everything in that border will work, and make you think that what is in "my zone" is NS2 and what is not isn't. But that border is mental and many things can be NS2 even things out of the border. To me rules are like a religion, and religion uses rules to differentiate themselves from one another. I believe everything is One, and even the deepest forest is Order, and the only rule I live with, is to be in service to the One.
I don't think I've heard anything more biased than what you've said..
"American players love their immersion and visuals, which is something of their social construct, while European players care more about the gameplay"
I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong about that statement. I think it's attitudes like this that separate our community. It seems like the NS community has to have this great divide between all the different types of players.
I think competitive players like your map because you're taking direct feedback from them. I also think that every map has something to offer that every other map doesn't. That's the whole point of creativity. I'm glad you chose to allow others to play around with your map, I think that's pretty selfless, and it'll go a long way if you take the right feedback.
I think bob has a unique perspective of being a content creator for players that UWE may not have that "eye" for.
There should be more of a blur between "dev" and "content creators" after all, each are experimenting with the game. They may have different reasons for their experimentation or effort... but what should be judged as "quality, fun, useful" content should be by the players.
Regardless of how much time, effort, or status that the creator has, some content may be better than others. Why not let the quality sift itself?
If UWE could realize it's function in supporting that body of community that is not contained within their office. Maybe the differentiation that supports UWE's ability to compete against those titles, is that it stays true to mod mentality.
Gladly UWE supports some of those creators, I do not accuse those who are paid that their work is not valuable. Indeed there is quality paid staff, and we require more. But to disregard the work of others, at least let the players make a decision how well liked the content is, before that paid staff does.
I could imagine, that the "quality" of that player content might not suit a professional who represents years of experience and produce content at that expense. To compare the work might be foolish, but remember the cost of their creation. UWE should not afford to spend money on that content, and if the community plays it...
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
Only biased from my own experience of being a European currently living in the USA. Truth is we are very different people. The divide exists beyond the forums, it is just people bring what they have in them in the forum.
And you did cut up my sentence to satisfy your own word :p You even cut up a word which was most important for me: Feel.
It's true there is some cultural differences between usa and most european countries. French cinema is quite different from Hollywood movies. Comics can also be very different. Of course there is different genres within both American and european cultures, and some are more alike than others.
I'm not sure about video games, is there any sales number we could compare ? Also there is a clear tendency in some kind of video games to become more like Hollywood movies (slightly debilitating non-stop action with explosions).
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Not trying to incite anything, but personally I've always felt marginalised in the NS world as I'm European. This was in NS and now in NS2.
I am not saying it is intentional, but in general, (big generalisation, but true of over 70% of Americans) America is the world, and anything that happens outside is irrelevant.
I love the work that is being done for NS2, but even in NS the Europeans and Americans were separated. I don't see this changing, while we can't play easily together. I know there are Europeans (and Aussies!) on the team, but it is very easy to feel disconnected from the game in Europe.
<!--quoteo(post=1933019:date=May 3 2012, 12:26 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ May 3 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not trying to incite anything, but personally I've always felt marginalised in the NS world as I'm European. This was in NS and now in NS2.
I am not saying it is intentional, but in general, (big generalisation, but true of over 70% of Americans) America is the world, and anything that happens outside is irrelevant.
I love the work that is being done for NS2, but even in NS the Europeans and Americans were separated. I don't see this changing, while we can't play easily together. I know there are Europeans (and Aussies!) on the team, but it is very easy to feel disconnected from the game in Europe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.....I don't understand what you are on about. There is a huge Euro scene in NS2. We have both NA and EU NS2 PTs, and we playtest together on a daily basis. We seem to be getting on well.
Up until recently, all of the official maps for NS2 have been made by Europeans. Don't feel disconnected - there's no need.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Having played the match in gathers and scrims, I do enjoy it. My favorite part is that nearly every res or tech node has multiple attack avenues, which makes sneaky ninja play much more fun and interesting. However, there are two things that bother me a bit about the map
1. Too many close resources - Both sides have roughly 5 res nodes (rine = backup, gate, hub, quarters, and generator; aliens = loading, tech double, cargo, and service) within easy distance. Right now, NS2 is more balanced towards only having 3-4 close res nodes (think summit or tram), such that any game longer than about 15 min can quickly devolve into ARC vs Onos spam. That's not that big of a deal in gathers or scrims, since they rarely last that long, but I can forsee big issues in public matches once server map downloads make it in. Frankly, I'd like to see some of those close res nodes moved into the middle of the map (think engine, hub, bridge), such that there is much more value in contesting the middle of the map.
2. (If you keep random spawns) Loading and Backup are too close as spawns - Cargo v Backup or Quarters and Quarters v Loading or Cargo are pretty good spawn distances, but I feel Loading v Backup to simply be too close. It runs into the same problem as adjacent spawns in summit such that gameplay devolves into rushing. If you could increases the distance between those tech nodes, I think that would help alot.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1933550:date=May 5 2012, 01:05 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 5 2012, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Too many close resources - Both sides have roughly 5 res nodes (rine = backup, gate, hub, quarters, and generator; aliens = loading, tech double, cargo, and service) within easy distance. Right now, NS2 is more balanced towards only having 3-4 close res nodes (think summit or tram), such that any game longer than about 15 min can quickly devolve into ARC vs Onos spam. That's not that big of a deal in gathers or scrims, since they rarely last that long, but I can forsee big issues in public matches once server map downloads make it in. Frankly, I'd like to see some of those close res nodes moved into the middle of the map (think engine, hub, bridge), such that there is much more value in contesting the middle of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is probably a product of the game's balance shifting around a lot. I would agree that Gate should be removed, but I'm not sure about the Alien resource nodes. I think the Alien res nodes are what defines Turtle's gameplay. They are as far away from one another as possible while still having roughly the same distance from the hive. Marines constantly attacking two of them at the same time can severely disrupt Alien coordination and usually take down one resource tower at a time and damage the other one enough to make the next rush successful.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
Good points ScardyBob. I am hoping something like Mendasp's Spawn setup is made into the game to setup these 'different' games which can happen on the map. I will make the future version so it supports these possibilities, but until there is a close spawn check I think it is best aliens only spawn in cargo, and leave to servers to modify the future version if they wish to run Mendasp's mod, (or release two versions, one compatible with the mod and one for 'pure' servers). Yet I am very keen on making this form work.
I will also work on the resource distribution. The design was started before the game has any substance, and many things have changed in the game as it nears to release. Now that the game is closing on a final form, it will be easier to define certain things more objectively, rather than just putting things out there to test with.
Whatever the form it will take, I am also keen on keeping the multiple attack routes to different areas, so don't worry Dghelneshi. I see this as an essential thing for my layout design, and as much as the game is asymmetrical, the layout mirrors this.
Comments
Fortunately, player is not in charge of playtesting maps. For public play, I'm afraid the map does not play well ir conform to the mapping guidelines. I test every map that gets released. While I have no say in what gets to be 'official' I do give my opinions. I also make sure all the other Playtesters voices are heard about maps and their feedback.
Also, I would appreciate you acting like an adult player. Right now you are showing yourself acting unbecoming of a senior member of the community. While I appreciate your efforts with overmind, I do not appreciate your attitude.
Evil bob, if you would like to speak more about why I think the nap layout could be improved, PM me and I am more than willing to help.
Why should all maps follow such arbitrary constrictions when game play has already proven its self to work so well on this map?
Btw, you can also modify the map yourselves : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118174" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118174</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1932132:date=May 1 2012, 08:51 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mapping guide lines? Really?
Why should all maps follow such arbitrary constrictions when game play has already proven its self to work so well on this map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind if mapping guidelines are not followed, as long as a map is fun to play for both public and competitive. If this was just for competitive play then fine, but evil bob and a fee others wonder why it is not beiing played by the public. It's not due to maps not auto-downloading. Most people know how.to do that or google search for the map at this stage. its because if its layout and design. Which I am more than willing to help evil bob improve.
Might have a contradiction on our hands.
I don't think Turtle needs a 'Turtle - Big Room' revision.
A few pages ago, someone started criticizing turtle along the same lines ("don't follow the guidelines,...") which provoked the same kind of reaction form people who play turtle ("guidelines are outdated, turtle is better than official maps, ..."), it wasn't the most fruitful discussion.
@Obraxis, I asked many times to include community maps (turtle and triad mainly), as community maps I mean (not officials ones) into the game (it's just a few additional mega to the patch, 2 minutes of work) until server download is done, so that server admin can put them into the map pool. It's really a shame that finished maps are not played and don't get more useful feedback because of this. As a playtester it is your duty to spam uwe about it and to support map creators.
In your opinion :-)
<!--quoteo(post=1932140:date=May 1 2012, 09:19 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ May 1 2012, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say you don't mind about guidelines, but then mention it isn't approved due to its layout.
Might have a contradiction on our hands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually read what I typed, I never said it was not approved due to it's layout. And I as I already stated, I dont get to approve maps for inclusion the devs do.
<!--quoteo(post=1932143:date=May 1 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 1 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Obraxis, I asked many times to include community maps (turtle and triad mainly), as community maps I mean (not officials ones) into the game (it's just a few additional mega to the patch, 2 minutes of work) until server download is done, so that server admin can put them into the map pool. It's really a shame that finished maps are not played and don't get more useful feedback because of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Map downloading is in the works, the devs have already said this many times. For now, Server admins can just download the map and put it in rotation.
<!--quoteo(post=1932143:date=May 1 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 1 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a playtester it is your duty to spam uwe about it and to support map creators.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not my duty to spam them with information they already know. And I think they are supporting map creators with things such as Tools, Bug fixes, map rotation, new features on the way like auto-downloading and the new Squad 5 initiative. That's more than most developers do at this stage of game development.
Really though... why are you guys trying to give priority over bug fixes and balanced game-play to a map? If that's not what's happening, I apologize in advance, but that's what it looks like to me...
One is made by UWE and the other isn't? Bizarre that an official mapper makes an official map, I know.
Go on duplex website, click on download, copy the maps in the build, done. It literally takes 2 minutes to do.
It's not so only about turtle, which is played quite a lot, think about triad; the guy spent huge amount of time doing the map, it looks very good, probably has some gameplay issues, but it's not played or very little, isn't that a bit sad?
Integrating it in a build would bring so much more feedback, not even talking about the fun for everybody to play a new map.
Anyway, we start to be a bit out of topic.
Huur.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really though... why are you guys trying to give priority over bug fixes and balanced game-play to a map? If that's not what's happening, I apologize in advance, but that's what it looks like to me...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding a complete map, created and maintained by the author isn't the same as adding a feature.
Copy map into NS2 directory and include in patch. Not sure where bug fixes comes into it.
Natural Selection 2 has a huge advantage over other games with custom map support. Take Left 4 Dead for example, campaigns for that game are often 100mb-300mb downloads. When maps are as compact in size as they are, it's advantageous to include these finished and popular custom maps because:
<ul><li>Author gets a wealth of feedback</li><li>Players can experience other maps</li><li>Players can <b>adapt</b> to different styles of maps</li><li>Everyone always has an up to date version of the map</li><li>Unknown mapping projects can be highlighted</li><li>Motivation to create even more custom content</li></ul>
These maps won't get played and won't get the REAL feedback that they need (cumulative overall feedback(everyone), not just dev, not just pt).
If UWE and others are so worried about certain map guidelines, or their game "image" being damaged. just have the game overlay a bit of red text that says "Unofficial Map" at the top. Boy that was hard.
Its just sad when community built content gets filtered.
Too bad Valve didn't pop into NS's development and say, "you know what, this mod doesn't meet our guidelines, sorry."
I think what Xerond just suggested is actually a reasonable idea:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If UWE and others are so worried about certain map guidelines, or their game "image" being damaged. just have the game overlay a bit of red text that says "Unofficial Map" at the top.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing I have also heard a lot is that turtle doesn't feel like a real place that much. The thing is, I don't try to make it look real, nor create a believable world when I created the map. This map is designed just for fun and gameplay possibilities. And that is why the rooms don't really have logical connections, but the rooms are connected in a way as to create strategical importance and division of the flow that exist between the two teams. For example bridge, which logically we could image would connect to hub, but having it only connect south and north creates a division of the flow as players choose to move either right, center (hub) or left (bridge).
If you take this map, and judge it in comparison with other official maps, personally if think you are not looking at it with the right eye, because it is not trying to be what official maps are. It is purposely something different, and it wasn't made to prove that the difference should be standard, but rather NS2 is solid enough that it can work in many ways.
As much as I would love it to be considered official, I truly understand why it is not official. If I tried to make it official like, I think I would kill its spirit, because this is not a human like structure but an organic animal. I understand that UWE, because it feels it has to compete against the AAA titles of huge companies, feels it has to do something that compares to AAA titles. While me as a mapper, I don't really have to compete with anyone but myself, and it is only a work where I can access my personal achievements and push my limits.
To bring things together. What I would love to see in the future is official custom map-packs, of maps like turtle which bring something different. So then UWE could support the diffusion of these maps, yet keep its distance towards them and make it clear that these maps are independent creations and don't play like other official maps.
I think we also have to recognize that each of us has his own opinion. Those that believe turtle is the best map, believe so because of the gameplay possibilities, and I think that is why competitive players love this map because it offers them choices official maps don't, while if we look at things from a visual standpoint, turtle is definitely not the best map out there. This also shows how not everyone wants the same thing out of NS2. Making a generalization, American players love their immersion and visuals, which is something of their social construct, while European players care more about the gameplay feel, which is also something of their social construct. It is definitely much more complicated than that, with many things that come in question and borders that are not as clear.
It all depends at who we look up to. UWE looking up to AAA titles, feels he is the underdog, the crazy one among them doing something a little different. Yet me looking up to UWE, I feel I am the underdog, the crazy one among them doing something a little different. When I say UWE can learn from this map, it is not saying that turtle like maps should be the standard, but saying, don't worry to much about appearances and look for a gameplay feel which is unique to each map. That rules only establish a zone of comfort for yourself, a border so you can imagine that everything in that border will work, and make you think that what is in "my zone" is NS2 and what is not isn't. But that border is mental and many things can be NS2 even things out of the border. To me rules are like a religion, and religion uses rules to differentiate themselves from one another. I believe everything is One, and even the deepest forest is Order, and the only rule I live with, is to be in service to the One.
"American players love their immersion and visuals, which is something of their social construct, while European players care more about the gameplay"
I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong about that statement. I think it's attitudes like this that separate our community. It seems like the NS community has to have this great divide between all the different types of players.
I think competitive players like your map because you're taking direct feedback from them. I also think that every map has something to offer that every other map doesn't. That's the whole point of creativity. I'm glad you chose to allow others to play around with your map, I think that's pretty selfless, and it'll go a long way if you take the right feedback.
I think bob has a unique perspective of being a content creator for players that UWE may not have that "eye" for.
There should be more of a blur between "dev" and "content creators" after all, each are experimenting with the game. They may have different reasons for their experimentation or effort... but what should be judged as "quality, fun, useful" content should be by the players.
Regardless of how much time, effort, or status that the creator has, some content may be better than others. Why not let the quality sift itself?
If UWE could realize it's function in supporting that body of community that is not contained within their office. Maybe the differentiation that supports UWE's ability to compete against those titles, is that it stays true to mod mentality.
Gladly UWE supports some of those creators, I do not accuse those who are paid that their work is not valuable. Indeed there is quality paid staff, and we require more. But to disregard the work of others, at least let the players make a decision how well liked the content is, before that paid staff does.
I could imagine, that the "quality" of that player content might not suit a professional who represents years of experience and produce content at that expense. To compare the work might be foolish, but remember the cost of their creation. UWE should not afford to spend money on that content, and if the community plays it...
<b>Why would you want to prevent that? </b>
And you did cut up my sentence to satisfy your own word :p You even cut up a word which was most important for me: Feel.
I'm not sure about video games, is there any sales number we could compare ? Also there is a clear tendency in some kind of video games to become more like Hollywood movies (slightly debilitating non-stop action with explosions).
I am not saying it is intentional, but in general, (big generalisation, but true of over 70% of Americans) America is the world, and anything that happens outside is irrelevant.
I love the work that is being done for NS2, but even in NS the Europeans and Americans were separated. I don't see this changing, while we can't play easily together. I know there are Europeans (and Aussies!) on the team, but it is very easy to feel disconnected from the game in Europe.
I am not saying it is intentional, but in general, (big generalisation, but true of over 70% of Americans) America is the world, and anything that happens outside is irrelevant.
I love the work that is being done for NS2, but even in NS the Europeans and Americans were separated. I don't see this changing, while we can't play easily together. I know there are Europeans (and Aussies!) on the team, but it is very easy to feel disconnected from the game in Europe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.....I don't understand what you are on about. There is a huge Euro scene in NS2. We have both NA and EU NS2 PTs, and we playtest together on a daily basis. We seem to be getting on well.
Up until recently, all of the official maps for NS2 have been made by Europeans. Don't feel disconnected - there's no need.
Can we get back to Turtle discussion please? :-)
Je ne parle pas français! Mdr.
Sorry, don't want to derail this thread any further. :D
1. Too many close resources
- Both sides have roughly 5 res nodes (rine = backup, gate, hub, quarters, and generator; aliens = loading, tech double, cargo, and service) within easy distance. Right now, NS2 is more balanced towards only having 3-4 close res nodes (think summit or tram), such that any game longer than about 15 min can quickly devolve into ARC vs Onos spam. That's not that big of a deal in gathers or scrims, since they rarely last that long, but I can forsee big issues in public matches once server map downloads make it in. Frankly, I'd like to see some of those close res nodes moved into the middle of the map (think engine, hub, bridge), such that there is much more value in contesting the middle of the map.
2. (If you keep random spawns) Loading and Backup are too close as spawns
- Cargo v Backup or Quarters and Quarters v Loading or Cargo are pretty good spawn distances, but I feel Loading v Backup to simply be too close. It runs into the same problem as adjacent spawns in summit such that gameplay devolves into rushing. If you could increases the distance between those tech nodes, I think that would help alot.
- Both sides have roughly 5 res nodes (rine = backup, gate, hub, quarters, and generator; aliens = loading, tech double, cargo, and service) within easy distance. Right now, NS2 is more balanced towards only having 3-4 close res nodes (think summit or tram), such that any game longer than about 15 min can quickly devolve into ARC vs Onos spam. That's not that big of a deal in gathers or scrims, since they rarely last that long, but I can forsee big issues in public matches once server map downloads make it in. Frankly, I'd like to see some of those close res nodes moved into the middle of the map (think engine, hub, bridge), such that there is much more value in contesting the middle of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably a product of the game's balance shifting around a lot.
I would agree that Gate should be removed, but I'm not sure about the Alien resource nodes. I think the Alien res nodes are what defines Turtle's gameplay. They are as far away from one another as possible while still having roughly the same distance from the hive. Marines constantly attacking two of them at the same time can severely disrupt Alien coordination and usually take down one resource tower at a time and damage the other one enough to make the next rush successful.
I will also work on the resource distribution. The design was started before the game has any substance, and many things have changed in the game as it nears to release. Now that the game is closing on a final form, it will be easier to define certain things more objectively, rather than just putting things out there to test with.
Whatever the form it will take, I am also keen on keeping the multiple attack routes to different areas, so don't worry Dghelneshi. I see this as an essential thing for my layout design, and as much as the game is asymmetrical, the layout mirrors this.