[201] THE SKULK: HOW-TO JUMP
Skie
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">(VIDEOS)</div>Here's a short video that explains the mechanics of the skulk movement in build 201. I think it's pretty great. When you get the hang of it, it's almost too powerful. Give it a chance before barking at it. :)
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2SLCGdD_VK0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2SLCGdD_VK0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
And then, how it works in real gameplay. In this video I start with no upgrades, then start using carapace at some point, and eventually leap and silence. The first clips are a bit bad but it gets better towards the end. Cue cheezy music. <b>Cheeeezy.</b> 720p available when youtube stops being a butt.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WjBkRwnH6AM"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WjBkRwnH6AM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2SLCGdD_VK0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2SLCGdD_VK0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
And then, how it works in real gameplay. In this video I start with no upgrades, then start using carapace at some point, and eventually leap and silence. The first clips are a bit bad but it gets better towards the end. Cue cheezy music. <b>Cheeeezy.</b> 720p available when youtube stops being a butt.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WjBkRwnH6AM"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WjBkRwnH6AM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Comments
<b>After testing it some more, we need a maximum cap on the skulk speed. This is ridiculously fast</b>
I'd hate to imagine the speed demons born of Wall-Jump, Leap, and Celerity...
Here I was figuring skulk movement was brokt again.
The problem i keep having is not the timing but the skulks ability to attach to the wall. I keep trying to jump on to the wall from the ground only for me to fall back down or for it to take a second for me to actually attach.
The problem i keep having is not the timing but the skulks ability to attach to the wall. I keep trying to jump on to the wall from the ground only for me to fall back down or for it to take a second for me to actually attach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This happens when you are trying to jump up onto a wall. You will sometimes not attach doing this. If you simply time your jumps so you connect with the wall at the peak or just starting your fall then you will consistently stick to every wall.
Imagine a 6v6 competetive game. the aliens will control all the map :D. Still I think it is hard enough to master so lets see how many player really pick it up to that level.
On a side note: I always thought it was a stereotype that all scandinavians hear heavy metal. I guess I was wrong :P
I thought the whole goal was to make a system that was easier to learn and understand that was more intuitive than what NS1 had. If this is the case, then the current implementation completely fails as a replacement system. To me, everything about the wall jump mechanic feels like a bug and it doesn't make sense why you are receiving a boost when you do.
The biggest issue I have is WTH is the white bar and what does it represent? Why do we have to time our jumps off the wall to receive a speed boost? Shouldn't just jumping 90 degrees off a wall give you the same boost?
This system needs to be made much more user friendly if it is to ever be a replacement movement skill.
I dont like that there is a minimum amount of time i have to wait on the wall to start the walljump...
(waiting for the white bar to go to the top and then jump before it drops again)
Would be much more responsive if i could just jump again the moment i hit the wall... so it would be a perfect jump as long as you jump before the white bar goes down again. (tho the timewindow would be a bit too big i guess)
I very often dont get any sound feedback even tho the bar looks full, seems like i maybe press 0.001s too early and as long as the bar is not on the way back down(or 100% at the peak) again there is no sound feedback...?
Having to flick the screen like that so often makes my head go spinning after a while(so i guess i will stay in the 9-10 speed area).. but thats not uwes problem i guess.
edit: i though the whole point of not using bhop was to make edit* something more intuitive?
Back to square one please.
Awaiting suggestions, that are not bunnyhop. â”(ٌ◕ˇڡˇ◕)┌
But it's still work in progress, expect more changes after PAX. The timing is going to change, for one, and skulk's attractiveness to walls.
like some games with bunnyhop have like a "pogomode" where if you tap space anytime after you jump but before you hit a surface you bounce
The only thing that you could critique as being too unintuitive is timing the walljumps with the white bar although the skulk timing sounds are helpful. Looking forward to what additional changes you guys end up making here.
You could very easily condense walljumping down into a tooltip - "Jump off walls to gain speed". Don't think you could do so with bhop, so i'm not entirely into the arguement that walljump is just as unintuitive. It also isnt very hard to figure out the basic idea by watching someone else do it (unlike bhop).
I don't think its really as unintuitive and hard to use as you make it sound. I'm already seeing alot of players on the aus servers (not clanners or anything) figuring out the walljump concept by themselves and using it more and more.
The sound in the current implementation only adds to the confusion for players that know that they can wall jump to gain speed. For people who are new to the game that see people flying past them bouncing off the walls will wonder why they can't achieve that and either have to ask or spend a bunch of time trying to figure out the timing (if they even knew that there was timing involved).
The change from build 200 to 201 even threw me off as I didn't know there was a timing aspect to the wall jump. To me it felt like it was only working 1/4 of the time which IMO made it feel like it was a bug.
Remove the white bar and the whole timing system and cap the speed that can be gained by doing this to a reasonably high number to still allow for a decent skill ceiling and then you have a movement feature that can be described in a simple tooltip.
you just have to hold down the jump key, there was no timing involved, as long as you had the jump key down, you will automatically jump as soon as you land, 100% perfect.
In terms of 'ease' of use that is probably the best way to implement it.
all the games after that where you had to hit the jump key manually as soon as you land just makes it harder and was the start of the whole mousewheel, or other spam jump macros.
so suggestion:
holding down jump key will make you auto jump.
The sound in the current implementation only adds to the confusion for players that know that they can wall jump to gain speed. For people who are new to the game that see people flying past them bouncing off the walls will wonder why they can't achieve that and either have to ask or spend a bunch of time trying to figure out the timing (if they even knew that there was timing involved).
The change from build 200 to 201 even threw me off as I didn't know there was a timing aspect to the wall jump. To me it felt like it was only working 1/4 of the time which IMO made it feel like it was a bug.
Remove the white bar and the whole timing system and cap the speed that can be gained by doing this to a reasonably high number to still allow for a decent skill ceiling and then you have a movement feature that can be described in a simple tooltip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the timing feature could be reversed, doing it as soon as possible after hitting the wall allows maximum speed and the longer you tarry on the wall the less effective it will be, allowing it to fill up would give no effect. The overall time that the bar takes to fill could be slightly increased.
Or not, as that does sound like it would convert into spam in practice.
Removing timing all together sounds like removing the "skill" from the skill based movement system. And just so you know, I've learned how to do this in game but still can't bunnyhop for more than a few seconds in any other game I've tried it in... bunnyhopping is a far more bizzare concept for someone to wrap their head around and less satisfying to perform.
you just have to hold down the jump key, there was no timing involved, as long as you had the jump key down, you will automatically jump as soon as you land, 100% perfect.
In terms of 'ease' of use that is probably the best way to implement it.
all the games after that where you had to hit the jump key manually as soon as you land just makes it harder and was the start of the whole mousewheel, or other spam jump macros.
so suggestion:
holding down jump key will make you auto jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Describe the skill in that. Plus do you really want skulks just hopping along the floor through corridors to be the norm? I like the current system because it synergises with the skulks ability to wall climb.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RUYwk_oBh3s"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RUYwk_oBh3s" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
compared to b200
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c9lwwLYgOrk"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c9lwwLYgOrk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I prefer build 201 skulk movement
no really though, how is this supposed to be more intuitive than bunnyhopping? not only does it have just as high of a learning curve, but it also only applies to one class. it also looks just as "unrealistic", for those who care about that sort of thing.
don't worry though guys cory or someone will come in here and say that it's just a first/second/third pass and it's constantly evolving or something
At worst you're left with a bhop like system that's still far more limited by the surroundings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted from another thread.
For the un-intuitiveness I think the main problem is that it's not universal, it works only on walls, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Having it tied to jump from any surface would make it more intuitive. Jumping from the wall could still be an advantage, because of gravity.
For capping the speed, you can use piece-wise linear friction coefficient, e.g. if speed is bigger than 15 double friction. It does a soft cap which is much better than the usual hard clamp.
bring on the bunnyhopping
The impact energy thinking clashed with the desire to keep skulks on the walls and also with the improved skulk air control - the new air control forced you to look into walls to get the max energy from it, so it pretty much had to go.
The problem with the new system is that its _way_ too fast. If we are going to balance the skulk around it being able to move at 12+ with a small effort, the game will be too fast.
In my opinion, wall movement/jumping should give a boost of maybe 20-30% of the standard speed. That's like a top speed of about 9-10. If you want to go faster than that, you should need leap or celerity.
I disagree. You can start accelerating a few rooms before if you see marines on the minimap, and unlike in bunnyhopping, you can maneuvre more than just a jump's height off the ground.
I guess the general consensus is that the timing is that makes the walljumping unintuitive. But as already mentioned, that's getting changes anyways.
Just as importantly, <b>what do you guys think of the idea of the angle restriction?</b> That is, that you can't jump to just any direction after hitting a wall, but your movement on the map has to have a certain momentum and direction. This makes you a bit more predictable, but there's a similar restriction in bunnyhopping - you can't just jump immediately 180 degrees into a different direction, you have to do a jump or two and do a curve on your path. The same you can do with the skulk.
We want this to be good, of course, but not bunnyhopping, so voice your opinions.