QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1643858:date=Aug 15 2007, 01:08 AM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Aug 15 2007, 01:08 AM) [snapback]1643858[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just saying. You said for them to be getting top 5 they'd have to be stealing the mage gear, so I'm wondering, if they're already in the top five, whats the lack of mp5 hurting them if they're already doing 'the best' out of everyone else? =P <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because of the reliance on a Shadow Priest. I mean, if their always there, its not so bad. But when their gone...kaput they go.
<!--quoteo(post=1643801:date=Aug 15 2007, 02:28 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Aug 15 2007, 02:28 AM) [snapback]1643801[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Everybody knows that for healing, priests and druids are in first and second place, probably in that order, followed by paladins. Frankly, shamans are really shafted for raiding, and it must suck immensely to reach that point and notice that you've been given the finger. It's just poor design. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Priests first? As in Holy Priests? You're having a laugh there.
Yes, priests. Holy priests. They've got PW:S, PW:F, they've got a wide assortment of reasonably fast instant heals, a slower-casting but powerful "nuke-heal" and they've got ressurection (which is why they make better 5-man group healers than resto druids do). While their soft and squishy nature makes them vulnerable in PvP, I feel quite confident in calling them the overall best PvE healers.
By the way, in PvP, especially 5-man arenas, paladins are probably the best healers overall due to their bubbles.
I wouldn't say overall best PvE healer. They're the class that is the most varied and have the most utility when healing. Paladins are the best single target healers, which is very valuable for PvE, and druids are excellent HoT focused healers, which is also valuable. In any five man instance, as long as the player knows how to play their class - be they a restoration druid, holy paladin or holy priest - they should have no issues keeping their party alive.
Shaman I'm unsure of. They seem to be, to me, a mix of all of the above with mana inefficiency thrown in. They can do a little bit of everything.
However, as for PvP, paladins are the best healers.
Sorry, what I meant to say was, maybe they are best healers, but those spots you would give to a Holy Priest are better off going to a paladin, druid or shaman. They provide far more utility than a Holy Priest.
<!--quoteo(post=1643918:date=Aug 15 2007, 05:40 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Aug 15 2007, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1643918[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I wouldn't say overall best PvE healer. They're the class that is the most varied and have the most utility when healing. Paladins are the best single target healers, which is very valuable for PvE, and druids are excellent HoT focused healers, which is also valuable. In any five man instance, as long as the player knows how to play their class - be they a restoration druid, holy paladin or holy priest - they should have no issues keeping their party alive.
Shaman I'm unsure of. They seem to be, to me, a mix of all of the above with mana inefficiency thrown in. They can do a little bit of everything.
However, as for PvP, paladins are the best healers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't disagree on any particular point, but given the choice I would still go with a priest in 5-man dungeons. For clarification, I play a cat-form focused feral druid and am usually stuck tanking because nobody else can/will do it. While a druid or paladin wouldn't be a bad choice, the priest just provides that little extra edge. He'll perform better than the paladin if the excrement hits the ventilation device and we suddenly need healing all over the place, and he'll ensure that we're back up and running swiftly even if we lose a group member during the fight (if we had a resto druid we'd probably have to wait for the dead member to corpserun back). The primary advantage of a resto shaman is that he brings wipe recovery in a single package. But frankly, that's kind of like the night elven "wisp" ability: I'd much rather have an ability that helps me AVOID death than one that helps me afterwards. 5-mans are their own little universe though. Priest, druids, paladins and shamans can all handle them fine provided they're specced properly (or even with a different spec, if their gear is good enough).
Also, there's PW:F. For a slightly under-geared tank who frequently has to deal with un-coordinated pick-up groups, there's no more welcome sight than a party-wide buff that'll give each of us 790-1020 more hitpoints.
<!--quoteo(post=1643919:date=Aug 15 2007, 11:52 AM:name=Aldaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aldaris @ Aug 15 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]1643919[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Sorry, what I meant to say was, maybe they are best healers, but those spots you would give to a Holy Priest are better off going to a paladin, druid or shaman. They provide far more utility than a Holy Priest. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ding ding. Someone who sounds like they actually <i>raid</i>.
I don't care how Holy Priests do in 5-mans. They're garbage in raids and that's my point.
i am fortunate enough to raid as an enhancement shaman ( yeah yeah boo hiss) and we rarely use priests, we have 2 active 10 man teams 1 gruul/mag/tk one.. and we have i think, 4 active holy priests in that entirety. paladins, shamans. druids. all heal better, i find personally, alot of druids going back to healer routes after getting over the "lolsferaldps" stage of tbc. its great to see!
Me, i love my draenai. i love resto. i love ele, i love enhance, the one thing that made me play horde pre tbc, was shaman. then when allies got them, i squeeled with joy, i could play the faction i wanted and the class! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
as far as raiding goes, i cant STAND personal players, who are a 1 man army. or healbotzone. its not about that, its about raid utility, what is your contribution, to the other 24 players, be it, heavy dps, and a buff or two? crit totems, aura's, for example we have a 40/0/21 lock who brags on dps over our other lock, who has 41,20,0 or something close to that. the latter buffs imp bloodpact, imp hs. giving at least 2 stone choices. and also uses CoS, whilst the other uses CoA, which would you rather have? the one putting out a little more dps? or the one who brings more raid utility? i love enhancement, and i specced every "group" buff in that tree, and yes, im very happy about the upcoming changes!
Hell, I WOULD heal if healers didn't get ###### in the ass with a broom handle re: solo utility. That's WoW's biggest design flaw I say. You can't avoid soloing, but if you're a healer you're gimped.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1644361:date=Aug 17 2007, 12:55 PM:name=Moquiao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moquiao @ Aug 17 2007, 12:55 PM) [snapback]1644361[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> and yes, im very happy about the upcoming changes! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, you mean the Windfury nerf?
And lolfighter: Tanks have it like that too. Oh, and Elemental Shaman. Hmm...and Raid-spec Rogues.
Edit: Okay, so Raid-Spec Rogues can still do pretty okay, but the others still count! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1644438:date=Aug 18 2007, 09:18 AM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Aug 18 2007, 09:18 AM) [snapback]1644438[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You're able to solo as a holy paladin or protection warrior. Just takes longer. As long as you don't mind the pace it's not much of a problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps 'solo' isn't the correct word. 'Farm' is a better one.
You cannot farm effectively as a pure healer or pure tank class. You take damage at a rate fast enough that you lose money faster than you can make it, through repair bills. Daily Quests become your only moneymaker in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1644433:date=Aug 18 2007, 04:19 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Aug 18 2007, 04:19 PM) [snapback]1644433[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What, you mean the Windfury nerf?
And lolfighter: Tanks have it like that too. Oh, and Elemental Shaman. Hmm...and Raid-spec Rogues.
Edit: Okay, so Raid-Spec Rogues can still do pretty okay, but the others still count! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
honestly, WF needed it... it will bring dps warrior and combat rogues down a little.. nothing unreasonable.
but i was referring to the enhancement buffs.
by the way, i hope im not breaking TOS with any of this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> but, im moving to the us soon, and as such, im gonna be hopefully buying a new char, (k4 levelling) any ideas where i could do this? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteBegin-Quan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quan)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You take damage at a rate fast enough that you lose money faster than you can make it, through repair bills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't actually happen. No one comes out of farming with a negative balance.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1644638:date=Aug 19 2007, 05:43 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Aug 19 2007, 05:43 PM) [snapback]1644638[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That IS in fact a breach of the TOS. Are character transfers between the european and north american realms not possible? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope.
And Moquiao: Hopefully it isn't such a huge nerf as to make it pointless to bring Rogues and Warriors again, since nearly every encounter in the expansion is designed with us not existing.
Rogues and warriors are still valuable so long as they put out their share of DPS. Both are also good to help supplement other DPSers - blood frenzy and expose weakness. Also, rogues are good DPS on their own period. :\
But does their vulnerability to cleave and point-blank-aoe make up for that when you compare them to, say, a mage? Getting on a raiding team as a rogue or cat form druid can be pretty difficult. Has been for me, at least.
Cleave is no longer an issue since they've nerfed it specifically due to the fact it boned any melee dps. As for aoe, I can't really say, as I haven't seen any aoe heavy bosses so far, but we're not past Gruul yet. And Haze? Expose Weakness is a Hunter talent, not Rogue <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1644641:date=Aug 19 2007, 05:49 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Aug 19 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]1644641[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That doesn't actually happen. No one comes out of farming with a negative balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Many of my Holy Priest friends would love to have a discussion with you. Oh, and I remember my old prot days...
<!--quoteo(post=1644646:date=Aug 19 2007, 06:10 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Aug 19 2007, 06:10 PM) [snapback]1644646[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Rogues and warriors are still valuable so long as they put out their share of DPS. Both are also good to help supplement other DPSers - blood frenzy and expose weakness. Also, rogues are good DPS on their own period. :\ <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they are valuable. But valuable enough to take the raid spot from a ranged DPS, is up in the air if their DPS goes equal. If "supplement"ing other's DPS was a viable way to get into raids, Shamans wouldn't be as screwed as they are.
<!--quoteo(post=1644694:date=Aug 20 2007, 06:47 AM:name=Aldaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aldaris @ Aug 20 2007, 06:47 AM) [snapback]1644694[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Cleave is no longer an issue since they've nerfed it specifically due to the fact it boned any melee dps. As for aoe, I can't really say, as I haven't seen any aoe heavy bosses so far, but we're not past Gruul yet. And Haze? Expose Weakness is a Hunter talent, not Rogue <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cleave itself isn't an issue, but other things are. Hell, here is a quick rundown of why Karazhan is a ######:
Attumen: Attacking from behind has a chance of being wtfpwnt Moroes: No melee worries Maiden: The more melee you have, the more your healers have to go into uber-heal-and-######-conservation mode. Opera: Big Bad Wolf means if the person was melee, well, they have a much higher chance of dying when Red Riding Hood'd. The others aren't much of an issue. Curator: Much like maiden. The more melee, the more healing needs to get passed around. Shade of Aran: A melee preferred fight, since nearly all of the melee classes have a point to being there, holy crap. Terestrian: Not really an issue, but it can be. I wouldn't say it is, for most though. Netherspite: The risk of still DPSing while Shadow Form while the ranged gets to go insane anyway is a ######, considering its a 1 hit kill at that point. Prince: Perhaps one of the most melee unfriendly fights in the game. Heres the fight to a melee: Go in, DPS. Run out. Run back in-oh wait run back out now because a infernal landed next to him. Spend 3 minutes watching ranged DPS beat on him. Run back in- oh wait another infernal dropped right next to him. Prince dies. % of damage done: -666%. Nightbane: Because of the dropdown bugs(he's supposed to drop in the same place each time, but he just doesn't anymore), melee have a high chance of getting their face cleaved off. Other than that though, the fight isn't that bad to us.
See what I mean? Its ridiculous. Then you've got Gruul, where they refuse to fix the confirmed bug of "sometimes he hits the guy 3rd on aggro". They fixed it, then broke it, then fixed it, then broke it, and stopped caring.
<!--quoteo(post=1644694:date=Aug 20 2007, 09:47 AM:name=Aldaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aldaris @ Aug 20 2007, 09:47 AM) [snapback]1644694[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Cleave is no longer an issue since they've nerfed it specifically due to the fact it boned any melee dps. As for aoe, I can't really say, as I haven't seen any aoe heavy bosses so far, but we're not past Gruul yet. And Haze? Expose Weakness is a Hunter talent, not Rogue <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Find, expose. Sorry. Got the mixed up, my bad. ^_^;
Hell, if "supplementing" was considered valuable, people would be lining up to accept feral druids into their raiding teams. We don't just supplement the melee damagers, we also supplement the healers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quan)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really? Many of my Holy Priest friends would love to have a discussion with you. Oh, and I remember my old prot days...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said the farming was as fast as another spec, but you don't come out with a negative balance unless you absolutely suck. I'm also <i>still</i> prot spec on my warrior, and have farmed as holy spec on my paladin several times. First hand experience also works in my favor. You don't come out to a negative balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quan)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, they are valuable. But valuable enough to take the raid spot from a ranged DPS, is up in the air if their DPS goes equal. If "supplement"ing other's DPS was a viable way to get into raids, Shamans wouldn't be as screwed as they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not all guilds have an endless pool to draw hunters, mages and warlocks from. Rogues are suitable DPS if you're looking for a pure DPS slot to fill. They don't suck. Also, the shaman's ability to boost other players' DPS isn't a joke, I don't know where you're getting that from. It is a viable way to get into raids, because they improve the output of other players by a noticeable amount.
<!--quoteo(post=1644753:date=Aug 20 2007, 05:51 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Aug 20 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]1644753[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Attumen: Attacking from behind has a chance of being wtfpwnt Moroes: No melee worries Maiden: The more melee you have, the more your healers have to go into uber-heal-and-######-conservation mode. Opera: Big Bad Wolf means if the person was melee, well, they have a much higher chance of dying when Red Riding Hood'd. The others aren't much of an issue. Curator: Much like maiden. The more melee, the more healing needs to get passed around. Shade of Aran: A melee preferred fight, since nearly all of the melee classes have a point to being there, holy crap. Terestrian: Not really an issue, but it can be. I wouldn't say it is, for most though. Netherspite: The risk of still DPSing while Shadow Form while the ranged gets to go insane anyway is a ######, considering its a 1 hit kill at that point. Prince: Perhaps one of the most melee unfriendly fights in the game. Heres the fight to a melee: Go in, DPS. Run out. Run back in-oh wait run back out now because a infernal landed next to him. Spend 3 minutes watching ranged DPS beat on him. Run back in- oh wait another infernal dropped right next to him. Prince dies. % of damage done: -666%. Nightbane: Because of the dropdown bugs(he's supposed to drop in the same place each time, but he just doesn't anymore), melee have a high chance of getting their face cleaved off. Other than that though, the fight isn't that bad to us.
See what I mean? Its ridiculous. Then you've got Gruul, where they refuse to fix the confirmed bug of "sometimes he hits the guy 3rd on aggro". They fixed it, then broke it, then fixed it, then broke it, and stopped caring. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only ones I agree with is BBW and Prince (although my pet can stay in on Prince. Avoidance ftw! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />). My guild uses the tactic of bunching up on Curator. I can't say we've ever had the 3rd highest thing on Gruul. That was fixed before we first attempted him, and no one in the guild has reported it happening.
Comments
Just saying. You said for them to be getting top 5 they'd have to be stealing the mage gear, so I'm wondering, if they're already in the top five, whats the lack of mp5 hurting them if they're already doing 'the best' out of everyone else? =P
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Because of the reliance on a Shadow Priest. I mean, if their always there, its not so bad. But when their gone...kaput they go.
Everybody knows that for healing, priests and druids are in first and second place, probably in that order, followed by paladins. Frankly, shamans are really shafted for raiding, and it must suck immensely to reach that point and notice that you've been given the finger. It's just poor design.
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Priests first? As in Holy Priests? You're having a laugh there.
While their soft and squishy nature makes them vulnerable in PvP, I feel quite confident in calling them the overall best PvE healers.
By the way, in PvP, especially 5-man arenas, paladins are probably the best healers overall due to their bubbles.
Shaman I'm unsure of. They seem to be, to me, a mix of all of the above with mana inefficiency thrown in. They can do a little bit of everything.
However, as for PvP, paladins are the best healers.
I wouldn't say overall best PvE healer. They're the class that is the most varied and have the most utility when healing. Paladins are the best single target healers, which is very valuable for PvE, and druids are excellent HoT focused healers, which is also valuable. In any five man instance, as long as the player knows how to play their class - be they a restoration druid, holy paladin or holy priest - they should have no issues keeping their party alive.
Shaman I'm unsure of. They seem to be, to me, a mix of all of the above with mana inefficiency thrown in. They can do a little bit of everything.
However, as for PvP, paladins are the best healers.
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I don't disagree on any particular point, but given the choice I would still go with a priest in 5-man dungeons. For clarification, I play a cat-form focused feral druid and am usually stuck tanking because nobody else can/will do it.
While a druid or paladin wouldn't be a bad choice, the priest just provides that little extra edge. He'll perform better than the paladin if the excrement hits the ventilation device and we suddenly need healing all over the place, and he'll ensure that we're back up and running swiftly even if we lose a group member during the fight (if we had a resto druid we'd probably have to wait for the dead member to corpserun back). The primary advantage of a resto shaman is that he brings wipe recovery in a single package. But frankly, that's kind of like the night elven "wisp" ability: I'd much rather have an ability that helps me AVOID death than one that helps me afterwards.
5-mans are their own little universe though. Priest, druids, paladins and shamans can all handle them fine provided they're specced properly (or even with a different spec, if their gear is good enough).
Also, there's PW:F. For a slightly under-geared tank who frequently has to deal with un-coordinated pick-up groups, there's no more welcome sight than a party-wide buff that'll give each of us 790-1020 more hitpoints.
Sorry, what I meant to say was, maybe they are best healers, but those spots you would give to a Holy Priest are better off going to a paladin, druid or shaman. They provide far more utility than a Holy Priest.
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Ding ding. Someone who sounds like they actually <i>raid</i>.
I don't care how Holy Priests do in 5-mans. They're garbage in raids and that's my point.
Ding ding. Someone who sounds like they actually <i>raid</i>.
I don't care how Holy Priests do in 5-mans. They're garbage in raids and that's my point.
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I wouldn't say they're that bad. They're as good as Druids- but Paladins just win, period.
Me, i love my draenai. i love resto. i love ele, i love enhance, the one thing that made me play horde pre tbc, was shaman. then when allies got them, i squeeled with joy, i could play the faction i wanted and the class! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
as far as raiding goes, i cant STAND personal players, who are a 1 man army. or healbotzone. its not about that, its about raid utility, what is your contribution, to the other 24 players, be it, heavy dps, and a buff or two? crit totems, aura's, for example we have a 40/0/21 lock who brags on dps over our other lock, who has 41,20,0 or something close to that. the latter buffs imp bloodpact, imp hs. giving at least 2 stone choices. and also uses CoS, whilst the other uses CoA, which would you rather have? the one putting out a little more dps? or the one who brings more raid utility? i love enhancement, and i specced every "group" buff in that tree, and yes, im very happy about the upcoming changes!
and yes, im very happy about the upcoming changes!
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What, you mean the Windfury nerf?
And lolfighter: Tanks have it like that too. Oh, and Elemental Shaman. Hmm...and Raid-spec Rogues.
Edit: Okay, so Raid-Spec Rogues can still do pretty okay, but the others still count! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
You're able to solo as a holy paladin or protection warrior. Just takes longer. As long as you don't mind the pace it's not much of a problem.
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Perhaps 'solo' isn't the correct word. 'Farm' is a better one.
You cannot farm effectively as a pure healer or pure tank class. You take damage at a rate fast enough that you lose money faster than you can make it, through repair bills. Daily Quests become your only moneymaker in the game.
What, you mean the Windfury nerf?
And lolfighter: Tanks have it like that too. Oh, and Elemental Shaman. Hmm...and Raid-spec Rogues.
Edit: Okay, so Raid-Spec Rogues can still do pretty okay, but the others still count! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
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honestly, WF needed it... it will bring dps warrior and combat rogues down a little.. nothing unreasonable.
but i was referring to the enhancement buffs.
by the way, i hope im not breaking TOS with any of this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> but, im moving to the us soon, and as such, im gonna be hopefully buying a new char, (k4 levelling) any ideas where i could do this? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
That doesn't actually happen. No one comes out of farming with a negative balance.
That IS in fact a breach of the TOS. Are character transfers between the european and north american realms not possible?
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Nope.
And Moquiao: Hopefully it isn't such a huge nerf as to make it pointless to bring Rogues and Warriors again, since nearly every encounter in the expansion is designed with us not existing.
That doesn't actually happen. No one comes out of farming with a negative balance.
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Really? Many of my Holy Priest friends would love to have a discussion with you. Oh, and I remember my old prot days...
<!--quoteo(post=1644646:date=Aug 19 2007, 06:10 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Aug 19 2007, 06:10 PM) [snapback]1644646[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Rogues and warriors are still valuable so long as they put out their share of DPS. Both are also good to help supplement other DPSers - blood frenzy and expose weakness. Also, rogues are good DPS on their own period. :\
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Yes, they are valuable. But valuable enough to take the raid spot from a ranged DPS, is up in the air if their DPS goes equal. If "supplement"ing other's DPS was a viable way to get into raids, Shamans wouldn't be as screwed as they are.
<!--quoteo(post=1644694:date=Aug 20 2007, 06:47 AM:name=Aldaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aldaris @ Aug 20 2007, 06:47 AM) [snapback]1644694[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Cleave is no longer an issue since they've nerfed it specifically due to the fact it boned any melee dps. As for aoe, I can't really say, as I haven't seen any aoe heavy bosses so far, but we're not past Gruul yet. And Haze? Expose Weakness is a Hunter talent, not Rogue <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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Cleave itself isn't an issue, but other things are. Hell, here is a quick rundown of why Karazhan is a ######:
Attumen: Attacking from behind has a chance of being wtfpwnt
Moroes: No melee worries
Maiden: The more melee you have, the more your healers have to go into uber-heal-and-######-conservation mode.
Opera: Big Bad Wolf means if the person was melee, well, they have a much higher chance of dying when Red Riding Hood'd. The others aren't much of an issue.
Curator: Much like maiden. The more melee, the more healing needs to get passed around.
Shade of Aran: A melee preferred fight, since nearly all of the melee classes have a point to being there, holy crap.
Terestrian: Not really an issue, but it can be. I wouldn't say it is, for most though.
Netherspite: The risk of still DPSing while Shadow Form while the ranged gets to go insane anyway is a ######, considering its a 1 hit kill at that point.
Prince: Perhaps one of the most melee unfriendly fights in the game. Heres the fight to a melee: Go in, DPS. Run out. Run back in-oh wait run back out now because a infernal landed next to him. Spend 3 minutes watching ranged DPS beat on him. Run back in- oh wait another infernal dropped right next to him. Prince dies. % of damage done: -666%.
Nightbane: Because of the dropdown bugs(he's supposed to drop in the same place each time, but he just doesn't anymore), melee have a high chance of getting their face cleaved off. Other than that though, the fight isn't that bad to us.
See what I mean? Its ridiculous. Then you've got Gruul, where they refuse to fix the confirmed bug of "sometimes he hits the guy 3rd on aggro". They fixed it, then broke it, then fixed it, then broke it, and stopped caring.
Cleave is no longer an issue since they've nerfed it specifically due to the fact it boned any melee dps. As for aoe, I can't really say, as I haven't seen any aoe heavy bosses so far, but we're not past Gruul yet. And Haze? Expose Weakness is a Hunter talent, not Rogue <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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Find, expose. Sorry. Got the mixed up, my bad. ^_^;
I never said the farming was as fast as another spec, but you don't come out with a negative balance unless you absolutely suck. I'm also <i>still</i> prot spec on my warrior, and have farmed as holy spec on my paladin several times. First hand experience also works in my favor. You don't come out to a negative balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quan)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, they are valuable. But valuable enough to take the raid spot from a ranged DPS, is up in the air if their DPS goes equal. If "supplement"ing other's DPS was a viable way to get into raids, Shamans wouldn't be as screwed as they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not all guilds have an endless pool to draw hunters, mages and warlocks from. Rogues are suitable DPS if you're looking for a pure DPS slot to fill. They don't suck. Also, the shaman's ability to boost other players' DPS isn't a joke, I don't know where you're getting that from. It is a viable way to get into raids, because they improve the output of other players by a noticeable amount.
Attumen: Attacking from behind has a chance of being wtfpwnt
Moroes: No melee worries
Maiden: The more melee you have, the more your healers have to go into uber-heal-and-######-conservation mode.
Opera: Big Bad Wolf means if the person was melee, well, they have a much higher chance of dying when Red Riding Hood'd. The others aren't much of an issue.
Curator: Much like maiden. The more melee, the more healing needs to get passed around.
Shade of Aran: A melee preferred fight, since nearly all of the melee classes have a point to being there, holy crap.
Terestrian: Not really an issue, but it can be. I wouldn't say it is, for most though.
Netherspite: The risk of still DPSing while Shadow Form while the ranged gets to go insane anyway is a ######, considering its a 1 hit kill at that point.
Prince: Perhaps one of the most melee unfriendly fights in the game. Heres the fight to a melee: Go in, DPS. Run out. Run back in-oh wait run back out now because a infernal landed next to him. Spend 3 minutes watching ranged DPS beat on him. Run back in- oh wait another infernal dropped right next to him. Prince dies. % of damage done: -666%.
Nightbane: Because of the dropdown bugs(he's supposed to drop in the same place each time, but he just doesn't anymore), melee have a high chance of getting their face cleaved off. Other than that though, the fight isn't that bad to us.
See what I mean? Its ridiculous. Then you've got Gruul, where they refuse to fix the confirmed bug of "sometimes he hits the guy 3rd on aggro". They fixed it, then broke it, then fixed it, then broke it, and stopped caring.
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The only ones I agree with is BBW and Prince (although my pet can stay in on Prince. Avoidance ftw! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />). My guild uses the tactic of bunching up on Curator. I can't say we've ever had the 3rd highest thing on Gruul. That was fixed before we first attempted him, and no one in the guild has reported it happening.