<!--quoteo(post=1694734:date=Dec 1 2008, 02:42 AM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Dec 1 2008, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for not having mass appeal Align? How do we know? etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, I know that it could probably attract a fair audience. You know that. Xyth knows that. But try convincing publishers. A MMO without publishers doesn't have a chance unless the devs have more money than god and don't need a publisher.
In any case, I seriously doubt such a game could be made decently lag-free even with modern technology without making the system vulnerable with peer-to-peer technologies or doing major calculations clientside. I heard Planetside did that, actually, and had lots of cheaters for a while. Never met any though, so perhaps that was just a baseless rumor. . .
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is that mmorpg are not designed by gamers,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tigole's existence pretty much destroys whatever point you set out to make. :\
I don't think there is any problem with MMORPGs and any sweeping generalization saying otherwise clearly hasn't taken a look at the sales charts recently.
edit: I agree that it would be nice having a game that focuses on player skill and exploration in a large and expansive MMO world rather than straight up loot whoring against 1,000's of people, but...unfortunately, 1000's of people LOVE to loot ######. I, too, have dreampt of a game that would have tried to give the player more precise control over their character, letting them climb, crawl and shimmy to their heart's content along side of a responsive, skill based combat system that looks fluid in motion. For awhile I thought Age of Conan would be that game, but apparently it's not.
It'll come laddies. I was hoping a game would come out where it would be myself versus a horde of enemies with a big gun since I was 12, just seeing how long we'd last. Then L4D came.
<!--quoteo(post=1694824:date=Dec 1 2008, 07:00 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 1 2008, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When using sales as a measure of quality, you're calling Big Brother a good show. :s<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a thought but every time a new MMO comes out (Conan, WAR, etc) WoW loses a great deal of its subscribers for a short while... at least until they come back again (something Blizzard has been boasting not too long ago). Don't know about you but that says to me that those "1000's" who "love" loot grinding want something else in reality: they're just sticking with WoW because nothing else is delivering :p
If a well-executed game that fulfills all the stuff we talked about comes out and doesn't take over the MMO world then hey, you can say you called it but there's pretty much nothing like that out there whatsoever so it's like saying prisoners like gruel: they probably don't but they don't have access to anything better :3
<!--quoteo(post=1694831:date=Dec 1 2008, 07:33 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 1 2008, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're saying you don't think there's a problem with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Generally successful things don't have very many problems. So yeah, I am saying there's not that many problems with WoW or the general MMORPG formula because it has proven to be so successful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know about you but that says to me that those "1000's" who "love" loot grinding want something else in reality: they're just sticking with WoW because nothing else is delivering <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point. I'd like to see the statistics of who leaves WoW though and then comes back to see how big of a chunk "repeat subscribers" make up in WoW's player base.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1694837:date=Dec 1 2008, 09:59 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Dec 1 2008, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally successful things don't have very many problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Microsoft Windows
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
The only real issue is that your definition of 'successful' as a gamer is not the same definition that Developers & Publishers live by. They want 'selling', because that pays the Developer wages, and keeps the Publisher pumping cash in for the next project. Altruism in producing a 'great game' falls rapidly by the wayside once you have your own mortgage to pay.
And unfortunately for you people as 'gamers', most people (including unfortunately, a lot of people on this forum, it's easy to demonise these people and describe them as 'random noobs' or whatever) are actually, quite simply, bad at games. They want easy, press the button, watch the cast bar gaming because that allows every mong to play the game. They don't want skill based bosses, they want 'memorise the pattern, collect the epics to show off'.
The closest I saw to that in WoW was Netherspite, a boss in Karazhan. Yes, it was still pattern memorization, but it was a highly complex pattern memorization, and every member of the ten-man group had to be on their toes. Even then, fast thinking could save the situation if people screwed up, sometimes. And guess what? That boss was indeed hugely unpopular. People did NOT like fighting him. Too hard, too complicated. Me, I loved it. In order to beat him, your group had to work like a well-oiled machine, and beat him we did, and it was sweeter than any of the other bosses. People want their "epix," and from the circle-jerk that guild chat sometimes turns into I'm forced to deduce that some people are actually impressed by the gear others are wearing. Mind-boggling.
Funny thing is, at the same time they're happy calling people who do far better "no-lifers." Go figure.
I liked CoX in that regard. Some missions had minimum requirements (not strict, but more of the "you're not going to stand a chance with less than four people here" kind), but you could always bring more (up to the party limit of eight). And class roles were less strict, especially in CoV. I wouldn't say that ANY group worked, but you had a LOT more freedom than you do with WoW's standard "one tank, one healer, three dps" model.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1694865:date=Dec 2 2008, 09:56 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Dec 2 2008, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And unfortunately for you people as 'gamers', most people (including unfortunately, a lot of people on this forum, it's easy to demonise these people and describe them as 'random noobs' or whatever) are actually, quite simply, bad at games. They want easy, press the button, watch the cast bar gaming because that allows every mong to play the game. They don't want skill based bosses, they want 'memorise the pattern, collect the epics to show off'.
I think the comparison misses a very important point about the success of some of these behemoths. Bragging rights have *always* been a part of gaming, and even FPS games are now incorporating this aspect of MMOs with achievements, perks and/or whatever. I have to say it really annoyed me when they added achievements to wow because, you know, I always that that T<x> set was your achievement. But looking at just how much people are willing to grind for achievements it made me realise that the card collector mentality is actually very prevalent amongst gamers and developers would be foolish not to capitalise on it. It gives people something else to enjoy when playing the game, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a game developer providing features that dilute the experience for us.. er.. purists to achieve this.
I think, in a similar vein, the boss fights provide a framework in which groups of people can learn a strategy and improve their execution of it to the point that the shared experience provides a lot of satisfaction. You can dismiss this as poor gaming if you like, but you are in a growing minority I think. Even looking at how dumbed down the FPS experience of TF2 and L4D is confirms to me that the purist is becoming a much less significant factor in any game design.
having said that, the boss fights in WotLK appear to be a lot better in terms of requiring more precision in the cooperation. Bosses require more cooperation than making sure everyone has their '/target Corrupted' macro ready for Halazzi.
I personally think there is room for both in but in any game, where a casual path requiring basic teamwork should be available and a more difficult route requiring more complex synergies. Maybe the 10-man vs 25-man aspect of wotlk will provide something like this, but having not been in either I can't really comment.
I think he means that when things are successful over their competitors that the natural process of competition and demand will root out the best product. Windows is a special case, because, for a very very long part of its history, it existed as an effective monopoly.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2008
Let's just say that even this skill based system I proposed can be engineered as any other casual game...
Easy to learn, hard to master.
Even with this movement skill/combat system, it doesn't have to exclude the casual gamers! There can be enough content for players to casually play the game, but for the more serious (purists) you can get into the deeper layers of the game. And with deeper layers of a game I don't mean hiding behind things like levels or hp/mana increase per level...
In simple terms, using TF2 as an example. You can have fun doing the basic things ingame, but you can also get into the "deeper" layers called rocket/sticky jumping, juggling enemies, chaining ubers etc... This is a very basic idea of easy to learn, hard to master...
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->I nominate Valve as best gaming company, because they understand these basic elements<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I hope NS2 will be like this to provide us with a large player base and also have the deepness of the old game (ahem 1.04 with fixes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1694880:date=Dec 2 2008, 02:41 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 2 2008, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the comparison misses a very important point about the success of some of these behemoths. Bragging rights have *always* been a part of gaming, and even FPS games are now incorporating this aspect of MMOs with achievements, perks and/or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> </snip>
I agree entirely puzl, I just don't agree with the impact it has. I think it brings out the worst (grinding, L2X, imbalances introduced by longer term players having innately greater chances of winning etc etc) in both games & gamers, and is a slippery slope. I'd prefer to be rewarded for the quality of my play, not the quantity.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2008
Well, take a pure FPS then like COD3 which gives players an advantage via perks. To me, this is a step backwards in the evolution of the FPS. To the market, it is progressive and adds value. Go figure.
However, would it not be true to say that different games can scratch different itches, if you know what I mean. I don't play wow for twitch gaming. I play wow mainly for the group experience, being a guild in which the majority are RL friends I've known for more than 15 years.
The only real question is, why aren't you there with us!?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2008
Also, on the issue of success vs quality. Success is when you accomplish your goals. If you planned to make a tv show with mass appeal and huge advertising revenue generation then big brother would be a success. If you planned to make a TV show that would be remembered forever for its creativity, ingenuity and contribution to human culture, then BB would probably be considered EPIC FAIL!
The reality is, most games have one primary objective: profit. And by that yardstick, a lot of what we collectively consider to be sub-par gaming is wildly successful.
The good news is that in any market there are always gems buried under the pile of crap on display at the store. Those of us who enjoyed darwinia or audiosurf know exactly what I'm talking about!! As gaming becomes more and more mainstream, expect the 'bleeding edge' [ZOMG MASTERCHEF CAN KILL YOU 1000 DIFFERENT WAYS] to be pulled to the center of the market and the real innovation to happen in independent outfits.
<!--quoteo(post=1694888:date=Dec 2 2008, 03:43 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 2 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, would it not be true to say that different games can scratch different itches, if you know what I mean. I don't play wow for twitch gaming. I play wow mainly for the group experience, being a guild in which the majority are RL friends I've known for more than 15 years.
The only real question is, why aren't you there with us!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't do guilds. I don't play Massively Multiplayer games to hang around with a small selection of people, the key draw is the 'Massive' part :p 2) For all the game adds it might as well be IRC to me. I love exploring a world full of other players with an avatar but WoW is just another grinding number-crunch. I know some people like 'management' games but I'm there for adventure, not calculus. The numbers and stuff get in the way and the combat outside of PvP is either repetitive or the few moments that aren't are locked away deep in some 10+ people dungeon in the upper levels of the game which I refuse to grind through to reach. 3) After Playing PSO the whole 'IRC-lite' method of MMO chat is dead to me. It annoys me. After experiencing an 'in-world' chat like PSO that's immersive and gives you a greater sense of being there as well as easy communication, WoW and co's IRC rip-off chat feels horrible and limited.
I want something with the craziness and adventure of Master Sword before they fixed it or Zelda and with PSO's level of communication. I want a game you can play through without ever having to open a browser to check you're not messing up your character or that involves staring at the UI for ages trying to work out where to put your next 'point' or asking people what some obscure stat does. I don't think this 'wonder' game is coming any time soon unfortunately but I'm not willing to pay a monthly fee to put up with a subpar game out of desperation either :p
Keep in mind I'm totally aware this is just my own opinion though. Some people enjoy WoW a lot. I'm just not one of them. I do suspect those WoWers would probably enjoy what I desire too though... after all nobody is attracted to WoW and MMOs with thoughts like "wow, I can't wait to grind levels, constantly fight up the loot ladder and tweak stats", they go in with romantic images of adventure in a living world with other players that almost feels like the novels and films that have captured our imagination over the years.
<!--quoteo(post=1694889:date=Dec 2 2008, 04:50 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 2 2008, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[ZOMG MASTERCHEF CAN MAKE YOU DELICIOUS 1000 DIFFERENT WAYS]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=1694890:date=Dec 2 2008, 04:56 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Dec 2 2008, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want something with the craziness and adventure of Master Sword before they fixed it or Zelda and with PSO's level of communication.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Zelda? ######, make it Okami. That way all the insecure twats who are deathly afraid of being called a furry, a group which also contains all the general-purpose asshats, will stay away. Double win.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1694888:date=Dec 2 2008, 03:43 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 2 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I play wow mainly for the group experience, being a guild in which the majority are RL friends I've known for more than 15 years.
The only real question is, why aren't you there with us!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> @ Geminosity : I think this was kind of aimed at me to an extent, for no longer playing with them. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
@ puzl : Because the game itself started to bore me to tears, and paying to idle Ventrilo sucks. Paying to idle Ventrilo whilst everyone else does something you have no exposure to, sucks more.
WoW just couldn't hold my interest past level 60. My favorite times in that game were in the few months following release when it was still bug/exploit ridden. 1 man raiding the night-elf home city and killing the big tree guardians while all the level 3 noobs watched was fun. The loot grind just ended up being too aggravating for me. I do have many good memories though.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
I think with Wrath, they finally managed to do what I've wanted them to for so long, all at once:
1. Meaningful World PvP with an impact on the game world. Wintergrasp not only effects who defends and who attacks, but who has access to what gear, a specific raid boss that is super easy, experience rate increase throughout all of Northrend, but then even a whole group of heirloom items for your younger characters that totally work).
2. Dungeons that are handled for the sake of their fun, not because oh my God I must get this one piece of gear wtf omg graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar. With each dungeon, you can complete it in 45 minutes or less with ease, and some even faster(current record on my server for Azjol'Nerub is 8:16 seconds, on heroic). Enough and strong enough badge rewards to get a nice upgrade from them, and still great, quality rewards from Heroics and even the normal dungeons.
3. A smooth leveling and gear progression. In vanilla, 1 or 2 super hard to get items were REQUIRED for you to get into any real raiding. Now you're very close to heroic ready at level 80 just by getting there, and with maybe doing maybe 6 or 7 heroics you'll be overgeared for entry Naxx. Even leveling had its issues, with a complete lack of quests at certain levels. Not only now is the leveling scheme infinitely faster(My Death Knight, with MAYBE 16 hours played, is level 66), but the holes have been closed. And Wrath Leveling is the most varied, fun, interesting leveling yet. Full of off the wall quests combined with the normal ones, and even 80% of the 'normal' quests have an interesting story behind them(In fact, throughout my entire leveling scheme I only counted 16 quests that just had me killing something for the sake of killing something. They all were involved with one chain or another that was rather interesting). Oh- and dungeons for every level along the way through Northrend.
4. Fully realized environment that is conducive to RP. Its pretty self explanatory- but they did such a great job, it must be pointed out.
Things I hope for in the future: 1. Harder raids. This is simple. I'm all for easy raids- but lets make some of 'em real ball busters. Lets give theorycrafters a dungeon setting made for them. 2. Better performance. I love getting these fancy shadows, but a system that can run Crysis:Warhead on Gamer and the original Crysis on all "High" settings should not be getting giant slowdowns in Dalaran. 3. Better Balancing. All the same problems of early BC are back, except now Ret Paladins and Arcane Mages join the list of 'people who will slaughter you without blinking'(This list already included Rogues and Feral Druids. Note- this isn't 'was ever overpowered', but specifically in the time frame of Patch 2.0.). The same exact thing shouldn't happen twice in a row. 4. 'Hero' Classing: Allow me to start my upcoming Hunter at 58. Don't even bother with a starting area- just let me do that, with a set of blue gear.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't do guilds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->10+ people dungeon in the upper levels of the game which I refuse to grind through to reach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know, It's not much of a grind to hit the dungeons. Blizzard <i>actually</i> does a <u>good job</u> on their encounters in raids and I find them very enjoyable to run through. I mean you said it yourself:
<!--QuoteBegin-gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I want something with the craziness and adventure of Master Sword before they fixed it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Raids (and instances!) are pretty <b>epic, crazy adventures</b> that you embark upon with fellow adventurers. Do you want to go at it alone...?
It seems like you crave adventure Gem but are avoiding everything in WoW that would actually deliver it to you on a silver spoon. Unless you've tried raids, guilds, etc, then I'm just talking out of my ass. But believe it or not the "GRIND" is actually fun (instances and raid wise, not sitting on a mob spawn for hours....I hate it). Don't join a hardcore guild, join something a bit more casual. Blizzard has also done a good job of making so you <b><i>don't</i></b> have to NUMBER CRUNCH, and the people that do min/max with WoW don't bleed extra performance compared to those that go about just collecting their class set pieces.
I completely understand you not liking WoW. I don't like it either -- the game world feels completely dead to me with NPCs that stand still and give no conversational options other than accept or cancel. I crave a level of interaction with the characters and environment that WoW simply doesn't offer me. But saying that you don't want to number crunch, that you want grand, epic and crazy adventures, and you want to pow around with a bunch of other players along side of you in a huge world to explore...WoW offers ALL of that.
<!--QuoteBegin-gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I want a game you can play through without ever having to open a browser to check you're not messing up your character or that involves staring at the UI for ages trying to work out where to put your next 'point' or asking people what some obscure stat does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never had to stare at a UI for ages trying to work out where my next point would go, or open my browser to make sure I wasn't messing up my character. There's also never been an obscure stat I had to inquire about by the time I had gotten my grips with the game. :3 Just saying!
<!--quoteo(post=1695161:date=Dec 5 2008, 01:42 AM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Dec 5 2008, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know, It's not much of a grind to hit the dungeons. Blizzard <i>actually</i> does a <u>good job</u> on their encounters in raids and I find them very enjoyable to run through. I mean you said it yourself: Raids (and instances!) are pretty <b>epic, crazy adventures</b> that you embark upon with fellow adventurers. Do you want to go at it alone...?
It seems like you crave adventure Gem but are avoiding everything in WoW that would actually deliver it to you on a silver spoon. Unless you've tried raids, guilds, etc, then I'm just talking out of my ass. But believe it or not the "GRIND" is actually fun (instances and raid wise, not sitting on a mob spawn for hours....I hate it). Don't join a hardcore guild, join something a bit more casual. Blizzard has also done a good job of making so you <b><i>don't</i></b> have to NUMBER CRUNCH, and the people that do min/max with WoW don't bleed extra performance compared to those that go about just collecting their class set pieces.
I completely understand you not liking WoW. I don't like it either -- the game world feels completely dead to me with NPCs that stand still and give no conversational options other than accept or cancel. I crave a level of interaction with the characters and environment that WoW simply doesn't offer me. But saying that you don't want to number crunch, that you want grand, epic and crazy adventures, and you want to pow around with a bunch of other players along side of you in a huge world to explore...WoW offers ALL of that. I never had to stare at a UI for ages trying to work out where my next point would go, or open my browser to make sure I wasn't messing up my character. There's also never been an obscure stat I had to inquire about by the time I had gotten my grips with the game. :3 Just saying!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Fantasy Novels are not written about bands of 25+ people on teamspeak waiting outside instances to get their act together. I have no interest whatsoever in Raids or guilds. If people want to be a cog in a silly machine then that's their business, but I don't call it fun, not epic (more like toy soldiers) and most certainly not adventure :p Playing alongside others for me is something organic... you might plan on the fly but you don't have some guy wearing the captains cap shouting orders and everyone following them blindly or some gameplan you read off the interwebs. REALLY playing alongside others is about everyone doing their part, together, on the fly: having to adapt and save one another because you're genuinely not sure what's happening and you're all equals.
I don't play MMOs to join silly little groups. Hardcore guilds I pity... they turn a game into a job. Casual Guilds mean little more than the cliques in a playground. I'll play with everyone thanks rather than shackle myself to a few :p I must admit though, it was pretty emotional when Frodo joined Gandalf's guild though... the bit where they argue about whether Smeagol should be kicked from it or not was also amazing drama. Who were the guild officers in the fellowship again? I forget. Good thing guild chat let them stay in touch across countless miles when they got seperated too, it saved the reader from unwanted surprises or needless depth: especially the bits where they use it to discuss stuff magically infront of people who can't hear it like enemies and elven kings and whatnot. Then again, it was a bit uncomfortable for the rest of the characters having the fellowship guild members space out like that, guess they thought they were AFK or something :3
Adventure is about going along and finding a cave and entering because you do not know what lies in the inky darkness rather than instantly knowing it's an instance and you need a tank and two other people to fill your 'spots'. Adventure is definitely not shouting "we need a healer" on the lfg channel :p
True adventure is going out into the wilderness meeting some people and helping each other out instead of being aware of what class everyone is and getting into conversations like "oh you're doing the demon quest? Yeah I've killed him before but I'll help out... the gloves you get for doing it are pretty cool".
That's why I mentioned master sword: me and 3 friends on the LAN wandering together and checking out dark caves just because we can. We didn't get told to by a quest NPC, for all we know it's just a cave. But we go in, lanterns lit walking into the black gaping maws of the world that await to sate our curiosity. On one ocassion we noticed the walls plunging away from our torches leaving us vulnerable from all sides within the delicate circle of our light. We threw our torches out to gauge the space and found it to be a massive cavern, many times larger than any we'd seen. We wandered around amazed at the gigantic hall of rock and just as we went to gather our thrown torches again, the shuffle of bone on dirt echoed around the room... and the torches puttered out. I've never ran about in utter darkness like that before chased by unseen horrors, never felt the bite of adrenaline as I stumble about blindly, shuffling along walls desperately wondering where everyone went as the clatter of decayed pursuers closes. I'd also never felt the swell of relief of seeing light up ahead and running to it with the thought "oh heck I hope the others saw it and headed this way"... only to find I'd stumbled across an orc camp who was less than pleased to see me. I probably never will, especially in WoW :p
I realise that's asking a lot there but don't pretend the carnival rides that make up WoW have enough mystery to them to even tickle the general vicinity of 'adventure' :p Take your ticket, get on the ride, get the same experience as the 5000 other people who did it before you and the countless others that will follow in a world that does not change and cannot change.
2) If you can call it a Grind then it's not fun. It's that simple. Sure they start off interesting but eventually the few quests like the mystery one in duskwood are the few among the many "Kill freaking sea creatures until you have x eyes, oh and by the way most of them seem to be missing eyeballs and other vital organs needed for quests so don't expect it to end any time this week". Why's it a grind? Most of the combat is the same and it's combat. The same combat. Over and over.
You will never utilise your astounding diplomacy, you'll never pull favours from your contacts to get things done, you'll never own property nor rent it, you'll never grow crops and you'll most certainly never run caravans from town to town capitalising on your business acumen and the laws of supply and demand (though admittedly you can do a castrated version of this via the auctionhouse... no bandits to worry about, no real haggling or local economies to worry about).
You will get to make the same sword 50 times to boost your blacksmithing. You will get to bludgeon countless faceless enemies with the combo you've perfected over the levels, the monotony only broken for a short while when you get a new skill to adapt into it. You will kill 72 boars because the farmer is too lazy to get her own bloody ingredients, or possibly because she's been rooted to the same spot for her whole life. Oh, did I mention faction grinding? Do I need to? :3
I've played countless games of counterstrike, rakion, gunz, TF2, etc and I'd never call it a grind despite doing it over and over again but that's because the actual experience of each match was not only fun but it was the goal: to play. Nobody smiths 50 odd pearl-handled daggers because they love making pearl handed daggers do they? :p
3) The worlds of min and max aren't my usual things, especially in single player games buuuuut... when I'm playing multiplayer I like to be competent so I don't hold anyone back. So I worry that I'm not performing as well as I could, I worry that I did something wrong because I know that when I find out later I'll pay for it (in ever increasing amounts of gold and probably having to find new equipment). Of course, I'll always choose to lose a little power in the name of fashion but that makes it all the more important that I can peform as well as I can while keeping myself stylish :3 You may not realise it but as a social gamer I spend a lot of my ingame time helping other players and I enjoy it, but to do so they'll inevitably ask what stats do and the like so to answer them I have to know. Not that Pug had to explain the strength stat to Thomas in the Rift wars, but the game relies on you learning what all these numbers do so you can make decisions... let's not pretend that it doesn't huh?
Really, I must agree with Haze: The required number crunching is VERY light. It doesn't take math genius to realize that pants with 60 spellpower are better than pants with 40 spellpower. You know your class, and you know what works for you: A mage relies on critical strikes, an affliction warlock doesn't, and they both know it. For the mage, the pants with 40 spellpower and 25 crit rating are better than the pants with 50 spellpower, for the affliction warlock it's the other way around. And even if you, by mistake, pick the wrong pair, it won't cripple you and you can safely throw them out anyway once you get the super epic pants of 75 spellpower and 40 crit rating a few levels later. All it really takes is not being allergic to numbers.
And if you're obsessed about your performance, you will have to deal with numbers no matter what game you're playing. A TF2 soldier knows that if he hits a full health heavy (300 hitpoints) in the face with a crit rocket (270 damage), the heavy has 30 hitpoints left and is easy prey for a follow-up rocket or shotgun blast, or even a humiliating shoveling (43-87 damage, 195 crit, 10% base crit chance as opposed to the normal 5%).
alternatively you could just realise that after a crit rocket heavies only take a single hit to kill from any of your weapons: something rather easy to pick up from experience rather than number crunching :p
Also keep in mind I Played WoW back before they changed the stats and I tend towards hybrids. Number crunching really comes more from talents and for reference sake I don't go for crit gear in games as any class as I hate random chance... relying on it just feels cheap to me and it was always annoying as a rogue to use an attack that relies on critting and have it not crit, for example. Also the crit/spell damage thing isn't always so clear cut... there will be times where the spell damage is worth more than the crit... e.g. say you get double damage from your crits due to your talents but you have 300 damage currently and you're choosing between 60 dmg and 10 crit versus 30 dmg and 20 crit? The answer? They're both the same statistically :p Simple fact is though it's almost never like the choice you provided and tends more towards trickier numbers... keep in mind I kept my example simple... I didn't even go into talents that trigger on crit and try to take those into account and the two examples you choose between are also fairly simple compared to what I could have done. Heck help you if you start going into spell coefficients.
Getting back to my point though knowing mages rely on crits? That's not natural or intuitive whatsoever. Again, can you tell me what Gandalf's crit chance was? Did the Aes Sedia from wheel of time discuss their crit gear? Mechanics ideally should be something in the background, the minute they're a huge and obvious part of the game they poison the atmosphere of it. Again, did you join ANY of the MMOs you've played to ponder stats? When you first heard about MMOs what drew you into playing it LF? Was it "I can't wait to plan out my talents and stack crit gear with my frost spec mage" or was it something a little more romantic?
Comments
But try convincing publishers. A MMO without publishers doesn't have a chance unless the devs have more money than god and don't need a publisher.
In any case, I seriously doubt such a game could be made decently lag-free even with modern technology without making the system vulnerable with peer-to-peer technologies or doing major calculations clientside. I heard Planetside did that, actually, and had lots of cheaters for a while. Never met any though, so perhaps that was just a baseless rumor. . .
Tigole's existence pretty much destroys whatever point you set out to make. :\
I don't think there is any problem with MMORPGs and any sweeping generalization saying otherwise clearly hasn't taken a look at the sales charts recently.
edit: I agree that it would be nice having a game that focuses on player skill and exploration in a large and expansive MMO world rather than straight up loot whoring against 1,000's of people, but...unfortunately, 1000's of people LOVE to loot ######. I, too, have dreampt of a game that would have tried to give the player more precise control over their character, letting them climb, crawl and shimmy to their heart's content along side of a responsive, skill based combat system that looks fluid in motion. For awhile I thought Age of Conan would be that game, but apparently it's not.
It'll come laddies. I was hoping a game would come out where it would be myself versus a horde of enemies with a big gun since I was 12, just seeing how long we'd last. Then L4D came.
It'll come.
I'm calling it a success.
Don't know about you but that says to me that those "1000's" who "love" loot grinding want something else in reality: they're just sticking with WoW because nothing else is delivering :p
If a well-executed game that fulfills all the stuff we talked about comes out and doesn't take over the MMO world then hey, you can say you called it but there's pretty much nothing like that out there whatsoever so it's like saying prisoners like gruel: they probably don't but they don't have access to anything better :3
Generally successful things don't have very many problems. So yeah, I am saying there's not that many problems with WoW or the general MMORPG formula because it has proven to be so successful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know about you but that says to me that those "1000's" who "love" loot grinding want something else in reality: they're just sticking with WoW because nothing else is delivering <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. I'd like to see the statistics of who leaves WoW though and then comes back to see how big of a chunk "repeat subscribers" make up in WoW's player base.
Microsoft Windows
And unfortunately for you people as 'gamers', most people (including unfortunately, a lot of people on this forum, it's easy to demonise these people and describe them as 'random noobs' or whatever) are actually, quite simply, bad at games. They want easy, press the button, watch the cast bar gaming because that allows every mong to play the game. They don't want skill based bosses, they want 'memorise the pattern, collect the epics to show off'.
'Sorry'. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Funny thing is, at the same time they're happy calling people who do far better "no-lifers." Go figure.
I like working with other people but these enforced ones aren't my kinda thing, especially as they tend be based around classes.
'Sorry'. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the comparison misses a very important point about the success of some of these behemoths. Bragging rights have *always* been a part of gaming, and even FPS games are now incorporating this aspect of MMOs with achievements, perks and/or whatever. I have to say it really annoyed me when they added achievements to wow because, you know, I always that that T<x> set was your achievement. But looking at just how much people are willing to grind for achievements it made me realise that the card collector mentality is actually very prevalent amongst gamers and developers would be foolish not to capitalise on it. It gives people something else to enjoy when playing the game, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a game developer providing features that dilute the experience for us.. er.. purists to achieve this.
I think, in a similar vein, the boss fights provide a framework in which groups of people can learn a strategy and improve their execution of it to the point that the shared experience provides a lot of satisfaction. You can dismiss this as poor gaming if you like, but you are in a growing minority I think. Even looking at how dumbed down the FPS experience of TF2 and L4D is confirms to me that the purist is becoming a much less significant factor in any game design.
having said that, the boss fights in WotLK appear to be a lot better in terms of requiring more precision in the cooperation. Bosses require more cooperation than making sure everyone has their '/target Corrupted' macro ready for Halazzi.
I personally think there is room for both in but in any game, where a casual path requiring basic teamwork should be available and a more difficult route requiring more complex synergies. Maybe the 10-man vs 25-man aspect of wotlk will provide something like this, but having not been in either I can't really comment.
I think he means that when things are successful over their competitors that the natural process of competition and demand will root out the best product. Windows is a special case, because, for a very very long part of its history, it existed as an effective monopoly.
Easy to learn, hard to master.
Even with this movement skill/combat system, it doesn't have to exclude the casual gamers! There can be enough content for players to casually play the game, but for the more serious (purists) you can get into the deeper layers of the game. And with deeper layers of a game I don't mean hiding behind things like levels or hp/mana increase per level...
In simple terms, using TF2 as an example. You can have fun doing the basic things ingame, but you can also get into the "deeper" layers called rocket/sticky jumping, juggling enemies, chaining ubers etc... This is a very basic idea of easy to learn, hard to master...
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->I nominate Valve as best gaming company, because they understand these basic elements<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I hope NS2 will be like this to provide us with a large player base and also have the deepness of the old game (ahem 1.04 with fixes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
</snip>
I agree entirely puzl, I just don't agree with the impact it has. I think it brings out the worst (grinding, L2X, imbalances introduced by longer term players having innately greater chances of winning etc etc) in both games & gamers, and is a slippery slope. I'd prefer to be rewarded for the quality of my play, not the quantity.
However, would it not be true to say that different games can scratch different itches, if you know what I mean. I don't play wow for twitch gaming. I play wow mainly for the group experience, being a guild in which the majority are RL friends I've known for more than 15 years.
The only real question is, why aren't you there with us!?
The reality is, most games have one primary objective: profit. And by that yardstick, a lot of what we collectively consider to be sub-par gaming is wildly successful.
The good news is that in any market there are always gems buried under the pile of crap on display at the store. Those of us who enjoyed darwinia or audiosurf know exactly what I'm talking about!! As gaming becomes more and more mainstream, expect the 'bleeding edge' [ZOMG MASTERCHEF CAN KILL YOU 1000 DIFFERENT WAYS] to be pulled to the center of the market and the real innovation to happen in independent outfits.
The only real question is, why aren't you there with us!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I don't do guilds. I don't play Massively Multiplayer games to hang around with a small selection of people, the key draw is the 'Massive' part :p
2) For all the game adds it might as well be IRC to me. I love exploring a world full of other players with an avatar but WoW is just another grinding number-crunch. I know some people like 'management' games but I'm there for adventure, not calculus. The numbers and stuff get in the way and the combat outside of PvP is either repetitive or the few moments that aren't are locked away deep in some 10+ people dungeon in the upper levels of the game which I refuse to grind through to reach.
3) After Playing PSO the whole 'IRC-lite' method of MMO chat is dead to me. It annoys me. After experiencing an 'in-world' chat like PSO that's immersive and gives you a greater sense of being there as well as easy communication, WoW and co's IRC rip-off chat feels horrible and limited.
I want something with the craziness and adventure of Master Sword before they fixed it or Zelda and with PSO's level of communication. I want a game you can play through without ever having to open a browser to check you're not messing up your character or that involves staring at the UI for ages trying to work out where to put your next 'point' or asking people what some obscure stat does.
I don't think this 'wonder' game is coming any time soon unfortunately but I'm not willing to pay a monthly fee to put up with a subpar game out of desperation either :p
Keep in mind I'm totally aware this is just my own opinion though. Some people enjoy WoW a lot. I'm just not one of them. I do suspect those WoWers would probably enjoy what I desire too though... after all nobody is attracted to WoW and MMOs with thoughts like "wow, I can't wait to grind levels, constantly fight up the loot ladder and tweak stats", they go in with romantic images of adventure in a living world with other players that almost feels like the novels and films that have captured our imagination over the years.
Fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=1694890:date=Dec 2 2008, 04:56 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Dec 2 2008, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want something with the craziness and adventure of Master Sword before they fixed it or Zelda and with PSO's level of communication.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zelda? ######, make it Okami. That way all the insecure twats who are deathly afraid of being called a furry, a group which also contains all the general-purpose asshats, will stay away. Double win.
The only real question is, why aren't you there with us!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@ Geminosity : I think this was kind of aimed at me to an extent, for no longer playing with them. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
@ puzl : Because the game itself started to bore me to tears, and paying to idle Ventrilo sucks. Paying to idle Ventrilo whilst everyone else does something you have no exposure to, sucks more.
<img src="http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8168/hpkua8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
1. Meaningful World PvP with an impact on the game world. Wintergrasp not only effects who defends and who attacks, but who has access to what gear, a specific raid boss that is super easy, experience rate increase throughout all of Northrend, but then even a whole group of heirloom items for your younger characters that totally work).
2. Dungeons that are handled for the sake of their fun, not because oh my God I must get this one piece of gear wtf omg graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar. With each dungeon, you can complete it in 45 minutes or less with ease, and some even faster(current record on my server for Azjol'Nerub is 8:16 seconds, on heroic). Enough and strong enough badge rewards to get a nice upgrade from them, and still great, quality rewards from Heroics and even the normal dungeons.
3. A smooth leveling and gear progression. In vanilla, 1 or 2 super hard to get items were REQUIRED for you to get into any real raiding. Now you're very close to heroic ready at level 80 just by getting there, and with maybe doing maybe 6 or 7 heroics you'll be overgeared for entry Naxx. Even leveling had its issues, with a complete lack of quests at certain levels. Not only now is the leveling scheme infinitely faster(My Death Knight, with MAYBE 16 hours played, is level 66), but the holes have been closed. And Wrath Leveling is the most varied, fun, interesting leveling yet. Full of off the wall quests combined with the normal ones, and even 80% of the 'normal' quests have an interesting story behind them(In fact, throughout my entire leveling scheme I only counted 16 quests that just had me killing something for the sake of killing something. They all were involved with one chain or another that was rather interesting). Oh- and dungeons for every level along the way through Northrend.
4. Fully realized environment that is conducive to RP. Its pretty self explanatory- but they did such a great job, it must be pointed out.
Things I hope for in the future:
1. Harder raids. This is simple. I'm all for easy raids- but lets make some of 'em real ball busters. Lets give theorycrafters a dungeon setting made for them.
2. Better performance. I love getting these fancy shadows, but a system that can run Crysis:Warhead on Gamer and the original Crysis on all "High" settings should not be getting giant slowdowns in Dalaran.
3. Better Balancing. All the same problems of early BC are back, except now Ret Paladins and Arcane Mages join the list of 'people who will slaughter you without blinking'(This list already included Rogues and Feral Druids. Note- this isn't 'was ever overpowered', but specifically in the time frame of Patch 2.0.). The same exact thing shouldn't happen twice in a row.
4. 'Hero' Classing: Allow me to start my upcoming Hunter at 58. Don't even bother with a starting area- just let me do that, with a set of blue gear.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->10+ people dungeon in the upper levels of the game which I refuse to grind through to reach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know, It's not much of a grind to hit the dungeons. Blizzard <i>actually</i> does a <u>good job</u> on their encounters in raids and I find them very enjoyable to run through. I mean you said it yourself:
<!--QuoteBegin-gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I want something with the craziness and adventure of Master Sword before they fixed it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Raids (and instances!) are pretty <b>epic, crazy adventures</b> that you embark upon with fellow adventurers. Do you want to go at it alone...?
It seems like you crave adventure Gem but are avoiding everything in WoW that would actually deliver it to you on a silver spoon. Unless you've tried raids, guilds, etc, then I'm just talking out of my ass. But believe it or not the "GRIND" is actually fun (instances and raid wise, not sitting on a mob spawn for hours....I hate it). Don't join a hardcore guild, join something a bit more casual. Blizzard has also done a good job of making so you <b><i>don't</i></b> have to NUMBER CRUNCH, and the people that do min/max with WoW don't bleed extra performance compared to those that go about just collecting their class set pieces.
I completely understand you not liking WoW. I don't like it either -- the game world feels completely dead to me with NPCs that stand still and give no conversational options other than accept or cancel. I crave a level of interaction with the characters and environment that WoW simply doesn't offer me. But saying that you don't want to number crunch, that you want grand, epic and crazy adventures, and you want to pow around with a bunch of other players along side of you in a huge world to explore...WoW offers ALL of that.
<!--QuoteBegin-gem+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gem)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I want a game you can play through without ever having to open a browser to check you're not messing up your character or that involves staring at the UI for ages trying to work out where to put your next 'point' or asking people what some obscure stat does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never had to stare at a UI for ages trying to work out where my next point would go, or open my browser to make sure I wasn't messing up my character. There's also never been an obscure stat I had to inquire about by the time I had gotten my grips with the game. :3 Just saying!
Raids (and instances!) are pretty <b>epic, crazy adventures</b> that you embark upon with fellow adventurers. Do you want to go at it alone...?
It seems like you crave adventure Gem but are avoiding everything in WoW that would actually deliver it to you on a silver spoon. Unless you've tried raids, guilds, etc, then I'm just talking out of my ass. But believe it or not the "GRIND" is actually fun (instances and raid wise, not sitting on a mob spawn for hours....I hate it). Don't join a hardcore guild, join something a bit more casual. Blizzard has also done a good job of making so you <b><i>don't</i></b> have to NUMBER CRUNCH, and the people that do min/max with WoW don't bleed extra performance compared to those that go about just collecting their class set pieces.
I completely understand you not liking WoW. I don't like it either -- the game world feels completely dead to me with NPCs that stand still and give no conversational options other than accept or cancel. I crave a level of interaction with the characters and environment that WoW simply doesn't offer me. But saying that you don't want to number crunch, that you want grand, epic and crazy adventures, and you want to pow around with a bunch of other players along side of you in a huge world to explore...WoW offers ALL of that.
I never had to stare at a UI for ages trying to work out where my next point would go, or open my browser to make sure I wasn't messing up my character. There's also never been an obscure stat I had to inquire about by the time I had gotten my grips with the game. :3 Just saying!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Fantasy Novels are not written about bands of 25+ people on teamspeak waiting outside instances to get their act together. I have no interest whatsoever in Raids or guilds. If people want to be a cog in a silly machine then that's their business, but I don't call it fun, not epic (more like toy soldiers) and most certainly not adventure :p
Playing alongside others for me is something organic... you might plan on the fly but you don't have some guy wearing the captains cap shouting orders and everyone following them blindly or some gameplan you read off the interwebs. REALLY playing alongside others is about everyone doing their part, together, on the fly: having to adapt and save one another because you're genuinely not sure what's happening and you're all equals.
I don't play MMOs to join silly little groups. Hardcore guilds I pity... they turn a game into a job. Casual Guilds mean little more than the cliques in a playground. I'll play with everyone thanks rather than shackle myself to a few :p
I must admit though, it was pretty emotional when Frodo joined Gandalf's guild though... the bit where they argue about whether Smeagol should be kicked from it or not was also amazing drama. Who were the guild officers in the fellowship again? I forget. Good thing guild chat let them stay in touch across countless miles when they got seperated too, it saved the reader from unwanted surprises or needless depth: especially the bits where they use it to discuss stuff magically infront of people who can't hear it like enemies and elven kings and whatnot. Then again, it was a bit uncomfortable for the rest of the characters having the fellowship guild members space out like that, guess they thought they were AFK or something :3
Adventure is about going along and finding a cave and entering because you do not know what lies in the inky darkness rather than instantly knowing it's an instance and you need a tank and two other people to fill your 'spots'. Adventure is definitely not shouting "we need a healer" on the lfg channel :p
True adventure is going out into the wilderness meeting some people and helping each other out instead of being aware of what class everyone is and getting into conversations like "oh you're doing the demon quest? Yeah I've killed him before but I'll help out... the gloves you get for doing it are pretty cool".
That's why I mentioned master sword: me and 3 friends on the LAN wandering together and checking out dark caves just because we can. We didn't get told to by a quest NPC, for all we know it's just a cave. But we go in, lanterns lit walking into the black gaping maws of the world that await to sate our curiosity. On one ocassion we noticed the walls plunging away from our torches leaving us vulnerable from all sides within the delicate circle of our light. We threw our torches out to gauge the space and found it to be a massive cavern, many times larger than any we'd seen. We wandered around amazed at the gigantic hall of rock and just as we went to gather our thrown torches again, the shuffle of bone on dirt echoed around the room... and the torches puttered out. I've never ran about in utter darkness like that before chased by unseen horrors, never felt the bite of adrenaline as I stumble about blindly, shuffling along walls desperately wondering where everyone went as the clatter of decayed pursuers closes.
I'd also never felt the swell of relief of seeing light up ahead and running to it with the thought "oh heck I hope the others saw it and headed this way"... only to find I'd stumbled across an orc camp who was less than pleased to see me. I probably never will, especially in WoW :p
I realise that's asking a lot there but don't pretend the carnival rides that make up WoW have enough mystery to them to even tickle the general vicinity of 'adventure' :p
Take your ticket, get on the ride, get the same experience as the 5000 other people who did it before you and the countless others that will follow in a world that does not change and cannot change.
2) If you can call it a Grind then it's not fun. It's that simple. Sure they start off interesting but eventually the few quests like the mystery one in duskwood are the few among the many "Kill freaking sea creatures until you have x eyes, oh and by the way most of them seem to be missing eyeballs and other vital organs needed for quests so don't expect it to end any time this week".
Why's it a grind? Most of the combat is the same and it's combat. The same combat. Over and over.
You will never utilise your astounding diplomacy, you'll never pull favours from your contacts to get things done, you'll never own property nor rent it, you'll never grow crops and you'll most certainly never run caravans from town to town capitalising on your business acumen and the laws of supply and demand (though admittedly you can do a castrated version of this via the auctionhouse... no bandits to worry about, no real haggling or local economies to worry about).
You will get to make the same sword 50 times to boost your blacksmithing. You will get to bludgeon countless faceless enemies with the combo you've perfected over the levels, the monotony only broken for a short while when you get a new skill to adapt into it. You will kill 72 boars because the farmer is too lazy to get her own bloody ingredients, or possibly because she's been rooted to the same spot for her whole life. Oh, did I mention faction grinding? Do I need to? :3
I've played countless games of counterstrike, rakion, gunz, TF2, etc and I'd never call it a grind despite doing it over and over again but that's because the actual experience of each match was not only fun but it was the goal: to play. Nobody smiths 50 odd pearl-handled daggers because they love making pearl handed daggers do they? :p
3) The worlds of min and max aren't my usual things, especially in single player games buuuuut... when I'm playing multiplayer I like to be competent so I don't hold anyone back. So I worry that I'm not performing as well as I could, I worry that I did something wrong because I know that when I find out later I'll pay for it (in ever increasing amounts of gold and probably having to find new equipment). Of course, I'll always choose to lose a little power in the name of fashion but that makes it all the more important that I can peform as well as I can while keeping myself stylish :3
You may not realise it but as a social gamer I spend a lot of my ingame time helping other players and I enjoy it, but to do so they'll inevitably ask what stats do and the like so to answer them I have to know. Not that Pug had to explain the strength stat to Thomas in the Rift wars, but the game relies on you learning what all these numbers do so you can make decisions... let's not pretend that it doesn't huh?
And if you're obsessed about your performance, you will have to deal with numbers no matter what game you're playing. A TF2 soldier knows that if he hits a full health heavy (300 hitpoints) in the face with a crit rocket (270 damage), the heavy has 30 hitpoints left and is easy prey for a follow-up rocket or shotgun blast, or even a humiliating shoveling (43-87 damage, 195 crit, 10% base crit chance as opposed to the normal 5%).
Also keep in mind I Played WoW back before they changed the stats and I tend towards hybrids. Number crunching really comes more from talents and for reference sake I don't go for crit gear in games as any class as I hate random chance... relying on it just feels cheap to me and it was always annoying as a rogue to use an attack that relies on critting and have it not crit, for example. Also the crit/spell damage thing isn't always so clear cut... there will be times where the spell damage is worth more than the crit... e.g. say you get double damage from your crits due to your talents but you have 300 damage currently and you're choosing between 60 dmg and 10 crit versus 30 dmg and 20 crit? The answer? They're both the same statistically :p
Simple fact is though it's almost never like the choice you provided and tends more towards trickier numbers... keep in mind I kept my example simple... I didn't even go into talents that trigger on crit and try to take those into account and the two examples you choose between are also fairly simple compared to what I could have done. Heck help you if you start going into spell coefficients.
Getting back to my point though knowing mages rely on crits? That's not natural or intuitive whatsoever. Again, can you tell me what Gandalf's crit chance was? Did the Aes Sedia from wheel of time discuss their crit gear?
Mechanics ideally should be something in the background, the minute they're a huge and obvious part of the game they poison the atmosphere of it. Again, did you join ANY of the MMOs you've played to ponder stats? When you first heard about MMOs what drew you into playing it LF? Was it "I can't wait to plan out my talents and stack crit gear with my frost spec mage" or was it something a little more romantic?
TBC at least had new races which made me try it, this new expansion seems designed completely towards those who have done everything already.
If I could roll a Death Knight without the need for a lvl 60 char I'd buy this game.